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Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)
- Thread starter Lolk
- Start date
Ferrothorn - definite B rank. I know B rank is a gigantic tier, but that's because there are so many mons that are either a tad overshaded and so many mons that have their own legitimate niches. Ferrothorn fits this perfectly: it completely shuts down a wide multitude of Pokemon, but is left completely shat on by the
Pumpkinface - I don't like this mon at all, so C or D if people want to. I don't see any reason to use it over Trevenant due to Trevenant having Harvest :/
CONKELDURR - I nominated this baller, better go check my post. If you don't want to, here is the short version: Send this man to A rank.
Heracross - I agree with this thing in B rank. Its Mega Evolution is a fantastic bulky wallbreaker (and TR sweeper :o), but with the loss of Bug Gem, its reg version no longer works as CressKiller :(
Whimsicott - tbh I don't really like the use of this mon. I believe Viability Rankings should be used to reflect the viability of all mons at a high level of play, which is why I don't really like Lolk's "Easy for newer players to use" argument (sorry for pointing you out :x). I think Whimsi is honestly too frail and too predictable to belong in anything higher than C rank.
Parasect - this thing is terrible, I don't think it should be ranked at all lol
Mr. Mime - yeah, D rank imo, since it is too frail to do its job properly, even tho its movepool is great *-*
Jellicent - B rank easily. Its role is a bit too specific for A rank, due to it being a (sort of niche) Trick Room setter that requires your team to need its synergy. C rank is not where it belongs though, this thing is really just a balanced good mon.
Virizion - Kind of shaky about this, but I have yet to use it in gen 6
Torterra - I have never seen or heard of anyone who has seen this being used. I don't really support it being ranked tbh, but C rank might work if its as good as you lot make it sound :p
Rotom-C - I like this thing, don't bash :/ but yeah, it's overshaded easily by Rotom-W and Rotom-H now that rain is much less popular. C rank seems like its spot.
Just quick post to agree / disagree on some things, not much in-depth since peeps already did that :p
Pumpkinface - I don't like this mon at all, so C or D if people want to. I don't see any reason to use it over Trevenant due to Trevenant having Harvest :/
CONKELDURR - I nominated this baller, better go check my post. If you don't want to, here is the short version: Send this man to A rank.
Heracross - I agree with this thing in B rank. Its Mega Evolution is a fantastic bulky wallbreaker (and TR sweeper :o), but with the loss of Bug Gem, its reg version no longer works as CressKiller :(
Whimsicott - tbh I don't really like the use of this mon. I believe Viability Rankings should be used to reflect the viability of all mons at a high level of play, which is why I don't really like Lolk's "Easy for newer players to use" argument (sorry for pointing you out :x). I think Whimsi is honestly too frail and too predictable to belong in anything higher than C rank.
Parasect - this thing is terrible, I don't think it should be ranked at all lol
Mr. Mime - yeah, D rank imo, since it is too frail to do its job properly, even tho its movepool is great *-*
Jellicent - B rank easily. Its role is a bit too specific for A rank, due to it being a (sort of niche) Trick Room setter that requires your team to need its synergy. C rank is not where it belongs though, this thing is really just a balanced good mon.
Virizion - Kind of shaky about this, but I have yet to use it in gen 6
Torterra - I have never seen or heard of anyone who has seen this being used. I don't really support it being ranked tbh, but C rank might work if its as good as you lot make it sound :p
Rotom-C - I like this thing, don't bash :/ but yeah, it's overshaded easily by Rotom-W and Rotom-H now that rain is much less popular. C rank seems like its spot.
Just quick post to agree / disagree on some things, not much in-depth since peeps already did that :p
Ferrothorn Placement: B-Rank, at best. While that 4x Fire weakness does cripple it, it does have access to various support moves, such as T-Wave, Leech Seed, and Stealth Rock. I disagree (somewhat) with both Sound and nyttyn that Swords Dance is the only really viable set that Ferrothorn can use, As it can wreck many pokes with just Gyro Ball, no boosts, combined with something like either a Sassy or Brave Nature, but I do see the necessity for SD to take out some of the more bulky pokes, like Garchomp or Kangaskhan. But, with the rising of the Sun teams (see what I did there) from the addition of Mega Charizard-Y, Ferrothorn has become much harder to use without worrying about getting Fire Blast-ed, so I think it would be hard for it to be an A-Rank pokemon, while it does have a lot of positive traits which keeps out of C-Rank. So, I think B-Rank would be the best for Ferrothorn.
Gourgeist B or C Rank: Not sure what to say about Gourgeist. Trevenant has a lot of things, mainly Harvest, that make it a better pokemon than Gourgeist, but Gourgeist has access to Shadow Sneak and can have a variation in its stats depending on its size. The Super Sized form probably has the best stats because it's the most bulky of the four sizes. Trick-or-Treat could find some sort niche in Doubles, though I doubt that I will see that happen do to the complexities it could bring. Put it in C-Rank.
Conkeldurr rising to A: What's not to love about Conkeldurr? It has good bulk, an excellent attack stat, is probably the best Guts user, and has a movepool that can complement it quite nicely. However, it's slow as heck and can get demolished by Psychic-types like Gardevoir and Alakazam with it's low Sp.Def.. Nevertheless, it can also work with Trick Room teams to make up for that low speed, and by having access to Wide Guard, as well as having Drain Punch, allows it to use a variety of different sets to meet whatever is needed and is pretty cool. I would say that Conkeldurr has got enough to make it to A-Rank.
Herracross being added to B: I vote for yes. Heracross now has a lot more sets, or more utility, to use than seen in previous gens with the addition of his Mega Evolution. They gave Heracross Arm Thrust, Bullet Seed, and Rock Blast this gen just so that we all may abuse Skill Link on Mega Heracross. Mega Heracross is much like Cloyster, except that he doesn't really need to set up in order to do a lot of damage and has a greater bulk (80/115/105) that's much more rounded than Cloyster. Moxie would be the best ability for Heracross if your going to mega evolve it, as it gives you an attack boost for whenever you KO an opposing pokemon. Sure, that 4x Flying weakness just murders this pokemon, but with some good teambuilding and making smart choices, Heracross can be a scary threat to deal with. I learned that the hard way on Showdown. So yes, Heracross should be added to B-Rank.
Whimsicott rising to B: I support the the bump up for Whimsicott. Having priority Tailwind can prove to be very important to the outcome of any battle, especially when you're up against a foe who has a lot of fast pokemon, like Greninja or Gengar. Prankster is what makes this pokemon great, but other than being a speedy supporter, it really can't do much else. With now being part Fairy, it can get easily crippled by Poison types, and is also now weak to Steel, which is still a fairly dominant type. But, having priority for all its status moves can prove key to any victory; it's not just Tailwind that's important. So give it the placement boost it deserves, put Whimsicott in B-Rank.
Parasect being added to C: Amoonguss is not the only TR Spore and Rage Powder user that's available, as Parasect is able to perform that role with almost the same efficiency. However, it has two 4x weaknesses, Fire and Flying, that can cripple it, and having Dry Skin does not help with reducing the damage of any sort of Fire-type moves. Effect Spore is kind of sketchy, and who even uses Damp? The moveset is probably the only promising thing that Parasect has, with moves such as Wide Guard, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy, and obviously both Rage Powder and Spore. C-Rank is the best option for Parasect, as its advantages clearly do not mitigate its disadvantages, but it is able to work in Doubles.
Mr. Mime being added to C: If Mr. Mine was being added to B-Rank or higher, I would of said no. But C-Rank is a safe choice for Mr. Mime, given that it needs a lot of team support if it wants to perform well, and those are part of the requirements for C-Rank.
Jellicent rising (B or A?): Too Bulky. That's what I can say about Jellicent. While its Def. is mediocre (100/70/105), when Jellicent has both Acid Armor and Will-O-Wisp, it can get hard to KO it. Jellicent has access to a lot of recovery options: Pain Split, Giga Drain (Transfer-Only), and obviously Recover. It ability Water Absorb also helps in maintaining its almost unstoppable bulk, and Cursed Body helps make sure no one tries getting physical with it. Finally, as Nollan noted out, Jellicent has 6 resistances, which helping in its walling capabilities So put Jellicent in A-Rank because this pokemon is just too bulky to handle.
Virizion being added to B: Not too sure. I rarely used Virizion in 5th Gen, and it will probably be the same in 6th for me. All I can say is that Whimsicott can be a nice complement to it, since Whimsicott can use Beat Up and Virizon's ability is Justified. Beat Up(5x)+Justified=Massive amounts of damage and sweeping. I really don't have the calculations for it, but that's the best I can do and was a cool combo I noticed. Nollan makes a good point about what Virizion should be used for, and I agree that it can be used to take out/check common threats that are found in both A-Rank and S-Rank (not Heatran, though). I'm going for Virizion being in B-Rank.
Torterra being added to C: Yes. Wide Guard now gives it some utility, for once. I see what you mean Lokomori about Heatran not being able to switch while Torterra is active, but what if the Heatran is holding an Air Balloon? what will you do then? I'm still worried about that 4x Ice weakness, but otherwise, I'm for Torterra for C-Rank.
Lucario rising to B: Hard to argue about. I still think that giving a mega evolution to Lucario seemed pretty pointless, since it was already pretty strong, but now it's just way too powerful. The only con that seems pretty big is how frail Lucario is, even with his Mega, and so it's pretty easy to KO him, but it can make up for that disadvantage with the brute strength it can bring. Because of this, Lucario does deserve to go to B-Rank.
Rotom-C rising to B: Electric/Grass is an interesting type combination, as it makes Rotom-C immune to being paralyzed as well as all powder moves, and the Electric-typing neutralizes many of the weaknesses that Grass-types face. While I do dislike Leaf Storm somewhat, mainly due to the Sp. Atk. decrease it brings after being used, Rotom-C has Charge Beam to make up for that problem. The big issue I have with Rotom-C is the same issue with Ferrothorn, and that is that Drought teams have seen a great boost in this gen, which has lead to an increased usage of Fire-types. I think it would be best just to keep Rotom-C in C-Rank, as it fails to hop over many hurdles that weren't created by itself, but rather external forces, such as Mega Charizard-Y.
Gourgeist B or C Rank: Not sure what to say about Gourgeist. Trevenant has a lot of things, mainly Harvest, that make it a better pokemon than Gourgeist, but Gourgeist has access to Shadow Sneak and can have a variation in its stats depending on its size. The Super Sized form probably has the best stats because it's the most bulky of the four sizes. Trick-or-Treat could find some sort niche in Doubles, though I doubt that I will see that happen do to the complexities it could bring. Put it in C-Rank.
Conkeldurr rising to A: What's not to love about Conkeldurr? It has good bulk, an excellent attack stat, is probably the best Guts user, and has a movepool that can complement it quite nicely. However, it's slow as heck and can get demolished by Psychic-types like Gardevoir and Alakazam with it's low Sp.Def.. Nevertheless, it can also work with Trick Room teams to make up for that low speed, and by having access to Wide Guard, as well as having Drain Punch, allows it to use a variety of different sets to meet whatever is needed and is pretty cool. I would say that Conkeldurr has got enough to make it to A-Rank.
Herracross being added to B: I vote for yes. Heracross now has a lot more sets, or more utility, to use than seen in previous gens with the addition of his Mega Evolution. They gave Heracross Arm Thrust, Bullet Seed, and Rock Blast this gen just so that we all may abuse Skill Link on Mega Heracross. Mega Heracross is much like Cloyster, except that he doesn't really need to set up in order to do a lot of damage and has a greater bulk (80/115/105) that's much more rounded than Cloyster. Moxie would be the best ability for Heracross if your going to mega evolve it, as it gives you an attack boost for whenever you KO an opposing pokemon. Sure, that 4x Flying weakness just murders this pokemon, but with some good teambuilding and making smart choices, Heracross can be a scary threat to deal with. I learned that the hard way on Showdown. So yes, Heracross should be added to B-Rank.
Whimsicott rising to B: I support the the bump up for Whimsicott. Having priority Tailwind can prove to be very important to the outcome of any battle, especially when you're up against a foe who has a lot of fast pokemon, like Greninja or Gengar. Prankster is what makes this pokemon great, but other than being a speedy supporter, it really can't do much else. With now being part Fairy, it can get easily crippled by Poison types, and is also now weak to Steel, which is still a fairly dominant type. But, having priority for all its status moves can prove key to any victory; it's not just Tailwind that's important. So give it the placement boost it deserves, put Whimsicott in B-Rank.
Parasect being added to C: Amoonguss is not the only TR Spore and Rage Powder user that's available, as Parasect is able to perform that role with almost the same efficiency. However, it has two 4x weaknesses, Fire and Flying, that can cripple it, and having Dry Skin does not help with reducing the damage of any sort of Fire-type moves. Effect Spore is kind of sketchy, and who even uses Damp? The moveset is probably the only promising thing that Parasect has, with moves such as Wide Guard, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy, and obviously both Rage Powder and Spore. C-Rank is the best option for Parasect, as its advantages clearly do not mitigate its disadvantages, but it is able to work in Doubles.
Mr. Mime being added to C: If Mr. Mine was being added to B-Rank or higher, I would of said no. But C-Rank is a safe choice for Mr. Mime, given that it needs a lot of team support if it wants to perform well, and those are part of the requirements for C-Rank.
Jellicent rising (B or A?): Too Bulky. That's what I can say about Jellicent. While its Def. is mediocre (100/70/105), when Jellicent has both Acid Armor and Will-O-Wisp, it can get hard to KO it. Jellicent has access to a lot of recovery options: Pain Split, Giga Drain (Transfer-Only), and obviously Recover. It ability Water Absorb also helps in maintaining its almost unstoppable bulk, and Cursed Body helps make sure no one tries getting physical with it. Finally, as Nollan noted out, Jellicent has 6 resistances, which helping in its walling capabilities So put Jellicent in A-Rank because this pokemon is just too bulky to handle.
Virizion being added to B: Not too sure. I rarely used Virizion in 5th Gen, and it will probably be the same in 6th for me. All I can say is that Whimsicott can be a nice complement to it, since Whimsicott can use Beat Up and Virizon's ability is Justified. Beat Up(5x)+Justified=Massive amounts of damage and sweeping. I really don't have the calculations for it, but that's the best I can do and was a cool combo I noticed. Nollan makes a good point about what Virizion should be used for, and I agree that it can be used to take out/check common threats that are found in both A-Rank and S-Rank (not Heatran, though). I'm going for Virizion being in B-Rank.
Torterra being added to C: Yes. Wide Guard now gives it some utility, for once. I see what you mean Lokomori about Heatran not being able to switch while Torterra is active, but what if the Heatran is holding an Air Balloon? what will you do then? I'm still worried about that 4x Ice weakness, but otherwise, I'm for Torterra for C-Rank.
Lucario rising to B: Hard to argue about. I still think that giving a mega evolution to Lucario seemed pretty pointless, since it was already pretty strong, but now it's just way too powerful. The only con that seems pretty big is how frail Lucario is, even with his Mega, and so it's pretty easy to KO him, but it can make up for that disadvantage with the brute strength it can bring. Because of this, Lucario does deserve to go to B-Rank.
Rotom-C rising to B: Electric/Grass is an interesting type combination, as it makes Rotom-C immune to being paralyzed as well as all powder moves, and the Electric-typing neutralizes many of the weaknesses that Grass-types face. While I do dislike Leaf Storm somewhat, mainly due to the Sp. Atk. decrease it brings after being used, Rotom-C has Charge Beam to make up for that problem. The big issue I have with Rotom-C is the same issue with Ferrothorn, and that is that Drought teams have seen a great boost in this gen, which has lead to an increased usage of Fire-types. I think it would be best just to keep Rotom-C in C-Rank, as it fails to hop over many hurdles that weren't created by itself, but rather external forces, such as Mega Charizard-Y.
I've put a lot of thought into this, as it took a couple of hours just researching stats and movesets of each pokemon, as well as typing this up this very long post. I appreciate any form of constructive criticism about my opinions.
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Ferrothorn remains in B rank.
Gourgeist is added to C rank.
Conkeldurr rises to A rank.
Whimsicott rises to B rank.
Heracross is added to B rank.
Parasect is added to D rank.
Mr. Mime is added to D rank.
Jellicent rises to B rank.
Virizion is added to B rank.
Torterra is added to C rank.
Lucario rises to B rank.
Rotom-C remains in C rank.
nominations are unlocked :)
Nollan goes to the Hall of Fame :)
Gourgeist is added to C rank.
Conkeldurr rises to A rank.
Whimsicott rises to B rank.
Heracross is added to B rank.
Parasect is added to D rank.
Mr. Mime is added to D rank.
Jellicent rises to B rank.
Virizion is added to B rank.
Torterra is added to C rank.
Lucario rises to B rank.
Rotom-C remains in C rank.
nominations are unlocked :)
Nollan goes to the Hall of Fame :)
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Lets start the new set of nominations with something interesting. I nominate Golduck for C-Rank, maybe B-Rank.
Why is mainly because of his access to the ability Cloud Nine, which negates weather effects. These effects could be damage from Sandstorm or Hail, raised stats for certain types of pokemon (Sandstorm boosts the SpDef. of all Rock pokemon), the abilities of other pokemon that rely on weather (Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Solar Power, etc.), or even certain moves (Solarbeam would take two turns, even in sun). Since weather has been such a strong force in Doubles for quite some time, even more dominant now, it would seem that having a pokemon that can negate weather effects could give you a much needed edge. Its hidden ability, Swift Swim, can allow it to outspeed a large majority of the pokemon in the game, and can be used for a supporter role or a sweeper.
Golduck also has a great variety of moves to use to fill whatever role that is needed. However, I like his support moves the best. Soak is one of the best moves that Golduck has, as it can lessen the damage for any STAB-boosted move the opposing pokemon may be using, as well as eliminating any large number of resistances the opponent's pokemon may have. Golduck also has access to Psych Up and Disable, which allows to have a number of options for potential sets. With Gen 6 giving Psyduck/Golduck two new useful egg moves, Clear Smog and Simple Beam, I could see Golduck taking a spot as a big supporter.
I've tried Golduck on a team I've made for Doubles in PS, and it has done beautifully, giving me that much-needed edge I said earlier against the opponent. This is the set I run:
It fun to watch Mega Charizard Y try to use Solarbeam, but is then has to wait to charge while in the sun. I then send out a pokemon with Sap Sipper the next turn to absorb the attack.
However, Golduck's stats are somewhat average and, while he can perform good offensively, he lacks some good bulk (80/78/80) that he needs for many stituations. Also, pokemon with Prankster kind of outclass it in the supporter role because of priority, and, if it's a supporter, can get easily get crippled by Taunt, maybe ruining your whole strategy in the process. Despite these setbacks, Golduck still can perform well with a variety of different roles: from being a fast special sweeper (maybe), to taking more of a support-based position.
So yeah, I feel that Golduck needs a niche in Doubles. I said this in the previous forum (now known as Pre-Bank Viability Rankings), but it seems my nomination was ignored. So, I wanted to bring it up again. Constructive criticism is appriciated.
Why is mainly because of his access to the ability Cloud Nine, which negates weather effects. These effects could be damage from Sandstorm or Hail, raised stats for certain types of pokemon (Sandstorm boosts the SpDef. of all Rock pokemon), the abilities of other pokemon that rely on weather (Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Solar Power, etc.), or even certain moves (Solarbeam would take two turns, even in sun). Since weather has been such a strong force in Doubles for quite some time, even more dominant now, it would seem that having a pokemon that can negate weather effects could give you a much needed edge. Its hidden ability, Swift Swim, can allow it to outspeed a large majority of the pokemon in the game, and can be used for a supporter role or a sweeper.
Golduck also has a great variety of moves to use to fill whatever role that is needed. However, I like his support moves the best. Soak is one of the best moves that Golduck has, as it can lessen the damage for any STAB-boosted move the opposing pokemon may be using, as well as eliminating any large number of resistances the opponent's pokemon may have. Golduck also has access to Psych Up and Disable, which allows to have a number of options for potential sets. With Gen 6 giving Psyduck/Golduck two new useful egg moves, Clear Smog and Simple Beam, I could see Golduck taking a spot as a big supporter.
I've tried Golduck on a team I've made for Doubles in PS, and it has done beautifully, giving me that much-needed edge I said earlier against the opponent. This is the set I run:
(Golduck) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 Spd / 136 HP / 40 Def / 24 SDef / 56 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Soak
- Protect
- Simple Beam
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 Spd / 136 HP / 40 Def / 24 SDef / 56 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Soak
- Protect
- Simple Beam
It fun to watch Mega Charizard Y try to use Solarbeam, but is then has to wait to charge while in the sun. I then send out a pokemon with Sap Sipper the next turn to absorb the attack.
However, Golduck's stats are somewhat average and, while he can perform good offensively, he lacks some good bulk (80/78/80) that he needs for many stituations. Also, pokemon with Prankster kind of outclass it in the supporter role because of priority, and, if it's a supporter, can get easily get crippled by Taunt, maybe ruining your whole strategy in the process. Despite these setbacks, Golduck still can perform well with a variety of different roles: from being a fast special sweeper (maybe), to taking more of a support-based position.
So yeah, I feel that Golduck needs a niche in Doubles. I said this in the previous forum (now known as Pre-Bank Viability Rankings), but it seems my nomination was ignored. So, I wanted to bring it up again. Constructive criticism is appriciated.
Adding to the new nominations, I nominate the Pokemon that was in the winning US Masters National team; Ludicolo. I nominate Ludicolo for B-Rank if not higher.
Ludicolo has a lot of good traits:
- Great Typing
- Great STAB's
- Access to Fake Out
- Fastest Fake Out user in the rain
- Great rain counter
- Good bulk
But Ludicolo also has it's flaws, like being completely walled by Ferrothorn and also doesn't like to take Priority Brave Birds to the face. (Why Talonflame, Why???) Ludicolo is still a great counter to most of the other used Pokemon and most of the Megas. It also walls Rotom-Wash like a Brick and able to hit it with a powerful STAB. Ludicolo can be an effective sweeper or an effective tank.
I don't know what you guys think about the Dancing Pineapple, but I think it's definitely worth consideration.
Ludicolo has a lot of good traits:
- Great Typing
- Great STAB's
- Access to Fake Out
- Fastest Fake Out user in the rain
- Great rain counter
- Good bulk
But Ludicolo also has it's flaws, like being completely walled by Ferrothorn and also doesn't like to take Priority Brave Birds to the face. (Why Talonflame, Why???) Ludicolo is still a great counter to most of the other used Pokemon and most of the Megas. It also walls Rotom-Wash like a Brick and able to hit it with a powerful STAB. Ludicolo can be an effective sweeper or an effective tank.
I don't know what you guys think about the Dancing Pineapple, but I think it's definitely worth consideration.
Macarena (Ludicolo) @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / enough Speed to creep whatever threatens you / rest HP
Modest Nature
-Giga Drain
-Hydro Pump / Surf
-Protect
-Fake Out / Ice Beam
This is the set I use as a Swift Swim abuser. Fake Out is really great, but Grass/Water/Ice is completely unresisted by any known Pokemon.
You could also run a Stall set with Rain Dish/Sitrus, Scald over HPump, and Fake Out (no Ice Beam). If it weren't for Talonflame being so damn amazing and widespread, I'd give Ludi A Rank, but as it stands, B rank works well for it.
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / enough Speed to creep whatever threatens you / rest HP
Modest Nature
-Giga Drain
-Hydro Pump / Surf
-Protect
-Fake Out / Ice Beam
This is the set I use as a Swift Swim abuser. Fake Out is really great, but Grass/Water/Ice is completely unresisted by any known Pokemon.
You could also run a Stall set with Rain Dish/Sitrus, Scald over HPump, and Fake Out (no Ice Beam). If it weren't for Talonflame being so damn amazing and widespread, I'd give Ludi A Rank, but as it stands, B rank works well for it.
I feel iffy doing this, but imo Abomasnow to B
I understand that its Mega Forme is a beast under Trick Room, but the metagame is unkind to it otherwise. Wide Guard is getting rather popular and a lot of Top Threats just manhandle it at the moment - Charizard-Y and Tyranitar are probably the biggest offenders since it makes Blizzard miss and if Trick Room isn't up Abomasnow gets easily OHKOed. There are also a lot of Mega Kangas, Fighting-types, Balloon Heatrans, Talonflames, Scizors, and general Pokemon to take a hit and pose a threat and OHKO it. I just really don't find it to be that threatening due to all the stops it has even when under Trick Room, and the fact that it is really not all that amazing outside of it due to a somewhat mediocre bulk and a lot of common weaknesses to the point where most Pokemon happen to hit it super effectively.
I understand that its Mega Forme is a beast under Trick Room, but the metagame is unkind to it otherwise. Wide Guard is getting rather popular and a lot of Top Threats just manhandle it at the moment - Charizard-Y and Tyranitar are probably the biggest offenders since it makes Blizzard miss and if Trick Room isn't up Abomasnow gets easily OHKOed. There are also a lot of Mega Kangas, Fighting-types, Balloon Heatrans, Talonflames, Scizors, and general Pokemon to take a hit and pose a threat and OHKO it. I just really don't find it to be that threatening due to all the stops it has even when under Trick Room, and the fact that it is really not all that amazing outside of it due to a somewhat mediocre bulk and a lot of common weaknesses to the point where most Pokemon happen to hit it super effectively.
Mantine for C Rank?
- Two immunities, resists Fire, only weak to Rock/Electric. Wide Guard helps with the Rock weakness, while 140 Sp Def + Wacan berry survives Tbolts from Rotom-W and Mega Ampharos
- Wide Guard/Tailwind/Icy Wind/Scald support
- Decent special attacker in the rain
- Amazing Sp Def. This pairs well with Intimidate.
His movepool is lacking but I think he's doubles material.
- Two immunities, resists Fire, only weak to Rock/Electric. Wide Guard helps with the Rock weakness, while 140 Sp Def + Wacan berry survives Tbolts from Rotom-W and Mega Ampharos
- Wide Guard/Tailwind/Icy Wind/Scald support
- Decent special attacker in the rain
- Amazing Sp Def. This pairs well with Intimidate.
His movepool is lacking but I think he's doubles material.
Can we move Ninetales up to C Rank please? Yes it's outclassed by CharY. BUT it does have the niche of First Turn Sun (automatic) and isn't completely nuked from orbit by Geodude's Rock Slide.
252+ Atk Geodude Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 480-568 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, if SR ever becomes a thing, we need something to come in every 5 turns. Char can do it exactly 2 times (3 with very careful EVing), while Tales can do it 4-5 times.
Also, it's not a bad thing to have a Backup setter, nor is it bad to have something to switch to if CharY is still out when Sun runs out.
Again, just for C Rank. Nothing crazy.
252+ Atk Geodude Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 480-568 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, if SR ever becomes a thing, we need something to come in every 5 turns. Char can do it exactly 2 times (3 with very careful EVing), while Tales can do it 4-5 times.
Also, it's not a bad thing to have a Backup setter, nor is it bad to have something to switch to if CharY is still out when Sun runs out.
Again, just for C Rank. Nothing crazy.
Ninetales is so bad that it is essentially playing 5-6. Using it for the niche of first turn sun just makes you epicly predictable, so it isn't hard for you to have an extremely bad lead disadvantage. Not being OHKOd be Geodude Rock Slide and being able to switch in om SR are not real niches.
D rank is for Pokemon with obscure niches that usually have no purpose, but you might possibly find a reason to use them. That is perfect for Ninetales.
I'm not sure about the other nominations, but ninetales should definitely not move up. Like youngjake93 said, its so bad, that your essentially playing 5-6 when using it. Its completely useless in most scenarios thanks to its lacking firepower, common weaknesses, and crappy defenses, not to mention that its almost completely outclassed by Mega Charizard. Its only niches over it are first turn sun and the ability to provide 8 turns of sun with Heat Rock and even the latter niche can be done better by Prankster Pokemon like Thundurus. It is that obscure niche of first turn sun that allows ninetales to cling onto its spot in D-Rank, but no higher.
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Golduck placement: Can't say for sure, but I am leaning to keep it off the list. Cloud Nine+Soak accomplishes basically nothing.
Ludicolo placement: At least B rank. My first round team for SPL was reeeeally standard and still had a horrible match up against Ludicolo. It has good coverage, passable BST, ridiculously great typing and Fake Out+Swift Swim both put the icing on the cake.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B: Requires too much support or a good team match up to perform well in comparison to other A ranked mons. Underachieving mega-evolution.
Mantine placement: I think C Rank. I could see it being pretty useful in certain scenarios.
Ninetales rising from D to C: No....
Ludicolo placement: At least B rank. My first round team for SPL was reeeeally standard and still had a horrible match up against Ludicolo. It has good coverage, passable BST, ridiculously great typing and Fake Out+Swift Swim both put the icing on the cake.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B: Requires too much support or a good team match up to perform well in comparison to other A ranked mons. Underachieving mega-evolution.
Mantine placement: I think C Rank. I could see it being pretty useful in certain scenarios.
Ninetales rising from D to C: No....
A bit occupied atm, so gonna be brief.
Golduck placement
Shouldn't be ranked imho. While it has Simple Beam and Cloud Nine, its stats are just pathetic, and apart from holding off weather for the two turns it is alive it will really be a sitting duck (see what I did there?)
Ludicolo placement
A Rank. Ludicolo is a monster in rain and hits almost every common threat in the metagame hard. And it can hold its own with Assault Vest, though such a set is somewhat inconsistent.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B
Agreed. It can be fearsome but it takes a good handful of support to get it there.
Mantine placement
D Rank at best. Unless you hate Hitmontop, Aegislash, Machamp, and about 150 other better choices for Wide Guard support there is little reason to use it. Two big time common weaknesses are all the worse for it viability-wise.
Ninetales rising from D to C
Charizard called; it wants its teammates back. If you suffer from the inability to not put Kangaskhan or Mawile on your teams you might find it uuseful, though. D Rank is about right for an otherwise completely eclipsed Pokemon, tbh.
Golduck placement
Shouldn't be ranked imho. While it has Simple Beam and Cloud Nine, its stats are just pathetic, and apart from holding off weather for the two turns it is alive it will really be a sitting duck (see what I did there?)
Ludicolo placement
A Rank. Ludicolo is a monster in rain and hits almost every common threat in the metagame hard. And it can hold its own with Assault Vest, though such a set is somewhat inconsistent.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B
Agreed. It can be fearsome but it takes a good handful of support to get it there.
Mantine placement
D Rank at best. Unless you hate Hitmontop, Aegislash, Machamp, and about 150 other better choices for Wide Guard support there is little reason to use it. Two big time common weaknesses are all the worse for it viability-wise.
Ninetales rising from D to C
Charizard called; it wants its teammates back. If you suffer from the inability to not put Kangaskhan or Mawile on your teams you might find it uuseful, though. D Rank is about right for an otherwise completely eclipsed Pokemon, tbh.
Aegislash isn't immune to Earthquake. Hitmontop can't switch into CharY's Heat Wave without losing over half his HP. Machamp's got no tail to wiggle for speed support. Mantine can do things that they cannot. Aegislash and Hitmontop are A rank anyways--Mantine's just going for C.
Suicune's a better comparison. Aside from Ground immunity and no Wide Guard access, he one-ups Mantine in everything else. But he's B rank. I think Wide Guard and Mantine's other perks justifies C rank.
These weaknesses encourage your opponent to use spread attacks, which give those Pokemon more Wide Guard uses. Same for Mantine with Rock Slide.
I'm not decided on Mantine's rank yet, but Wide Guard alone does not deem a Pokemon worthy of C rank. Look where Parasect is ranked. You'll need to elaborate on the other perks you are referring to. For example, Tailwind / Icy Wind for speed support, and Helping Hand. There's Water Absorb too, but that's not useful this metagame, especially considering that the most common Water-type is easily Rotom-W.
I mentioned some perks in my nomination post. But yeah, Tailwind/Icy Wind/Scald/Wide guard/Helping Hand are his best moves. His typing and defenses lets him wall Charizard Y and Heatran. Mega Gardevoir's Moonblast 3HKO's him with 0 Sp Def investment. He makes for a good special wall and that's helpful in a metagame that's filled with Intimidate and burns. x4 Electric is his biggest flaw, as it kind of locks him into a Wacan berry for a held item.
How common is Electric coverage outside of Rotom-W?
I would probably use Sitrus over Wacan and just swap out on all Rotom and Thundy. Electric is pretty rare outside of that and I think having two Pokemon force you out is just fine. I would be more concerned with the low Def and being weak to Rock Slide since that is much more common, but you have Wide Guard and can hit almost all Rock Sliders super effectively with a move that has a good chance to burn should you predict them trying to maneuver around wide guard.
It definitely seems like a Pokemon that can work and could even be worth using even if only for the sole reason of ruining Charizard-Y and Heatran.
Outside of STAB users like Jolteon, Zapdos and Thundurus, Kyurem-B commonly runs Fusion Bolt, Gardevoir and Gengar might run Thunderbolt and MegaZard X might run ThunderPunch. I might forget something but these are the main ones anyway.
Mantine walls MegaZardY but can't hit it back. It loses 1v1.
4 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 62-74 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO. You need at least 168 SpA EVs to guarantee a 4HKO.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 82-97 (24.5 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 82-97 (24.5 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can use your support options to help your other Pokemon KO it, but your opponent does have a second Pokemon of their own.
Pwnemon edit: Why did you use air slash for these calcs? Both SolarBeam and Fire Blast hit harder. Why would you ever run air slash ever
Darkmalice edit: At the time of posting, I was thinking that if I said any of those two options, someone would argue that Solarbeam is weather dependent and Fire Blast is likely to miss if you use it that many times. Admittedly this was bad reasoning, and I should not have mentioned Air Slash. The calcs would be even more in ZardY's favour with SolarBeam and Fire Blast, so my point still stands.
Against Heatran, it obviously fairs better, walling Heatran with no problem.
4 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 138-164 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Which is ok as long as sunlight isn't up, then you can't break Heatran's Sub.
If I really wanted to ruin ZardY and Heatran, I'd use Terrakion, who outspeeds and OHKOes both of them whilst resisting Fire.
Anyways my nominations
Golduck placement
Interestingly Golduck can OHKO Charizard-Y and Tyranitar with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast respectively, or both with Life Orb Hydro Pump. Definitely not with the set posted though; Golduck will be KOed long before your eliminate their weather starters. Soak sucks, especially on a frail Pokemon, and there are better Simple Beam users like Genesect - and Simple Beam is a gimmick.
However, Golduck is going to have a hard time staying alive with its bad bulk, and its speed is awful for something with such bad bulk and only subpar SpA - it is outsped by a ton of powerhouses. Mega Zard 2HKOes you with Air Slash; with its ally, it's easy to OHKO Golduck before it can actually do something to Zard. And it's not winning against Abomasnow and Politoed too. It fails at its job to keep weather off the field. There are better ways to ward off weather, such as Tyranitar, manual weather, specific checks and counters to the weather settlers like Terrakion for Mega Zard, or even Cloud Nine Lickilicky which also isn't good but as not bad as Golduck. Even worse when you have to keep Golduck in for it to work, where it will quickly be KOed, whilst your opponent can switch out their weather abusers and send them in after Golduck is off the field.
Also not many teams are weather dependent this metagame. Cloud Nine is not useful this metagame. Sun teams usually only have one Pokemon tops that is sun dependent, and that's Venasaur who beats Golduck 1v1. The only notable sand-dependent Pokemon is Excadrill, who seriously damages offensive Golduck sets and isn't OHKOed by defensive sets. It also fairs badly against the main two Swift Swim users, Kingdra and Ludicolo, and Thunder users.
Swift Swim Golduck is outclassed by other Swift Swim users and can be predicted on team preview when you see Politoed or if your opponent uses manual Rain Dance.
In short, there is no reason to use Golduck. No rank for Golduck. It is an E-rank Pokemon that is not common enough to warrant its placement on the viability list. I would like to see a list of Pokemon that have been nominated and rejected from the viability ranking list though so that they're less likely to be nominated again.
Ludicolo placement
It needs rain support to function as its best. It is great in rain - great coverage, speed, and strong STAB. It suffers competition from Kingdra though, who has better SpA, better Speed, and more importantly, Muddy Water - Ludicolo has to resort to Surf to hit both opponents simultaneously. But it has better bulk, and Grass STAB is vital on rain teams to get past Rotom-W and Gastrodon.
Without rain, it falls short in power, bulk, and Speed compared to A- or S-rank Pokemon like MegaZard Y, many of the other Mega Evos, Landorus-T (who U-turns on you), Conkledurr, Kyurem-B and many B-rank Pokemon too. For a defensive Water-type, it faces competition with Rotom-W and its Will-O-Wisp and Suicune's superior bulk. It faces competition with Greninja, offensively who can utilise its offensive movepool of Water-STAB, Grass-STAB with Grass Knot and Ice Beam (also with STAB), sacrificing bulk for speed and power. It also doesn't help that it's easily KOed by Talonflame even in rain. It would be C-rank when not used in rain. But rain exists.
tl;dr It's very good in rain but dependent on it and faces competition by Kingdra despite having some good perks over it. B rank.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B
It's a good Pokemon, but with the state of the metagame packing so many moves that are super-effective against, it really needs Trick Room support or a Choice Scarf to function to its best potential. And whilst Mega Abomasnow is a good upgrade to Abomasnow, it isn't hard to find resists to its STABs, it uses up your precious Mega Stone slot, and there are scarier Pokemon under Trick Room like Heatran, Conkledurr, and Mega Mawile. You also don't need a weather settler of your own to handle weather teams well. The metagame is not kind to it. B-rank. Admittely it's one of the best B-rank Pokemon.
Mantine placement
I view Mantine like Cress in the sense that it utilises its bulk to provide team support, alas Mantine has worse bulk, even worse offensive presence, and less support options. However it has enough niches to make it useable alas barely. C-rank, and it scraps the bottom of the C-rank barrel. In addition to what's been said already, a Lightning Rod user can patch up Mantine's weakness like Manetric, who can give it up to provide Intimidate support to protect Mantine's weaker Defense. Mantine in turn provides Wide Guard support from EQ or can Scald Ground-types. They make a good combo.
Ninetales rising from D to C
Ninetales has two main niches over Charizard. The first is setting up sunlight for Mega Houndoom. The second is to be used alongside Mega Zard Y for more sunlight. Both involve stacking weaknesses, and Ninetales doesn't offer anything over those other two other than Drought - you'd be better off with a manual Sunny Day user. And that, by the way, was recommended in 5th gen even when Drought provided permanent sun. First turn sun isn't enough to justify its use, as Ninetales is easy to outlead against, doesn't help that every other weather starter has a good lead match up against it, even Abomasnow as it gets its hail up and then swaps out.
It's ouclassed by Zard-Y. The lack of an Electric-type weakness and x4 Rock-type weakness means little when Zard can hit Rotom-W and Thundurus much harder than Ninetales and the most common Rock Slide abusers can still OHKO you - Tyranitar's Rock Slide is likely to OHKO with sandstorm chip damage, Landorus-T and Garchomp have EQ for you.
In short, when you are outclassed by Zard-Y in most things, and by manual sun in everything else, that relegates you to D-rank.
Interestingly Golduck can OHKO Charizard-Y and Tyranitar with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast respectively, or both with Life Orb Hydro Pump. Definitely not with the set posted though; Golduck will be KOed long before your eliminate their weather starters. Soak sucks, especially on a frail Pokemon, and there are better Simple Beam users like Genesect - and Simple Beam is a gimmick.
However, Golduck is going to have a hard time staying alive with its bad bulk, and its speed is awful for something with such bad bulk and only subpar SpA - it is outsped by a ton of powerhouses. Mega Zard 2HKOes you with Air Slash; with its ally, it's easy to OHKO Golduck before it can actually do something to Zard. And it's not winning against Abomasnow and Politoed too. It fails at its job to keep weather off the field. There are better ways to ward off weather, such as Tyranitar, manual weather, specific checks and counters to the weather settlers like Terrakion for Mega Zard, or even Cloud Nine Lickilicky which also isn't good but as not bad as Golduck. Even worse when you have to keep Golduck in for it to work, where it will quickly be KOed, whilst your opponent can switch out their weather abusers and send them in after Golduck is off the field.
Also not many teams are weather dependent this metagame. Cloud Nine is not useful this metagame. Sun teams usually only have one Pokemon tops that is sun dependent, and that's Venasaur who beats Golduck 1v1. The only notable sand-dependent Pokemon is Excadrill, who seriously damages offensive Golduck sets and isn't OHKOed by defensive sets. It also fairs badly against the main two Swift Swim users, Kingdra and Ludicolo, and Thunder users.
Swift Swim Golduck is outclassed by other Swift Swim users and can be predicted on team preview when you see Politoed or if your opponent uses manual Rain Dance.
In short, there is no reason to use Golduck. No rank for Golduck. It is an E-rank Pokemon that is not common enough to warrant its placement on the viability list. I would like to see a list of Pokemon that have been nominated and rejected from the viability ranking list though so that they're less likely to be nominated again.
Ludicolo placement
It needs rain support to function as its best. It is great in rain - great coverage, speed, and strong STAB. It suffers competition from Kingdra though, who has better SpA, better Speed, and more importantly, Muddy Water - Ludicolo has to resort to Surf to hit both opponents simultaneously. But it has better bulk, and Grass STAB is vital on rain teams to get past Rotom-W and Gastrodon.
Without rain, it falls short in power, bulk, and Speed compared to A- or S-rank Pokemon like MegaZard Y, many of the other Mega Evos, Landorus-T (who U-turns on you), Conkledurr, Kyurem-B and many B-rank Pokemon too. For a defensive Water-type, it faces competition with Rotom-W and its Will-O-Wisp and Suicune's superior bulk. It faces competition with Greninja, offensively who can utilise its offensive movepool of Water-STAB, Grass-STAB with Grass Knot and Ice Beam (also with STAB), sacrificing bulk for speed and power. It also doesn't help that it's easily KOed by Talonflame even in rain. It would be C-rank when not used in rain. But rain exists.
tl;dr It's very good in rain but dependent on it and faces competition by Kingdra despite having some good perks over it. B rank.
Abomasnow dropping from A to B
It's a good Pokemon, but with the state of the metagame packing so many moves that are super-effective against, it really needs Trick Room support or a Choice Scarf to function to its best potential. And whilst Mega Abomasnow is a good upgrade to Abomasnow, it isn't hard to find resists to its STABs, it uses up your precious Mega Stone slot, and there are scarier Pokemon under Trick Room like Heatran, Conkledurr, and Mega Mawile. You also don't need a weather settler of your own to handle weather teams well. The metagame is not kind to it. B-rank. Admittely it's one of the best B-rank Pokemon.
Mantine placement
I view Mantine like Cress in the sense that it utilises its bulk to provide team support, alas Mantine has worse bulk, even worse offensive presence, and less support options. However it has enough niches to make it useable alas barely. C-rank, and it scraps the bottom of the C-rank barrel. In addition to what's been said already, a Lightning Rod user can patch up Mantine's weakness like Manetric, who can give it up to provide Intimidate support to protect Mantine's weaker Defense. Mantine in turn provides Wide Guard support from EQ or can Scald Ground-types. They make a good combo.
Ninetales rising from D to C
Ninetales has two main niches over Charizard. The first is setting up sunlight for Mega Houndoom. The second is to be used alongside Mega Zard Y for more sunlight. Both involve stacking weaknesses, and Ninetales doesn't offer anything over those other two other than Drought - you'd be better off with a manual Sunny Day user. And that, by the way, was recommended in 5th gen even when Drought provided permanent sun. First turn sun isn't enough to justify its use, as Ninetales is easy to outlead against, doesn't help that every other weather starter has a good lead match up against it, even Abomasnow as it gets its hail up and then swaps out.
It's ouclassed by Zard-Y. The lack of an Electric-type weakness and x4 Rock-type weakness means little when Zard can hit Rotom-W and Thundurus much harder than Ninetales and the most common Rock Slide abusers can still OHKO you - Tyranitar's Rock Slide is likely to OHKO with sandstorm chip damage, Landorus-T and Garchomp have EQ for you.
In short, when you are outclassed by Zard-Y in most things, and by manual sun in everything else, that relegates you to D-rank.
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Golduck
I don't see cloud nine being a niche since Politoed can replace opposing weather with rain which benefits it. Simple Beam is also far to gimmicky to be of good use, and even if you went that route, there are better mons to use. So with no genuine niches, Golduck is frail, weak, and has a meh support movepool. No ranking is needed.
Ludicolo
Cool STABs, Ice Beam, and Fake Out all work great for Ludicolo. It is one of the more reliable Swift Swim sweepers because of its movepool and Giga Drain. However, it has to sacrifice something for Protect, usually, which puts a hole in its sweeping or supporting role. Nollan also showed me an assault vest set, which walls many special threats to oblivion. However, both Swift Swim and Assault Vest sets struggle to function with Ludicolo's piss Defense. It is also quite slow outside of rain which hampers its performance, especially with the rain nerf. I guess a low-ish B rank works.
Abomasnow
I have never really played Abomasnow so I don't want to theorymon over the higher ranked pokemon. I will trust everyone else's opinions.
Mantine
Mantine is in the same boat as Ludicolo. It has a unique-typing and cool special bulk. Heck, Mantine can also sweep with Swift Swim if it is supported properly. Wide Guard is a cool option since it is weak to Discharge and Rock Slide and it does partner well with Heatran who needs some earthquakes blocked. Tailwind is cool too but it is outclassed in that regard. Mantine loses to Ludicolo because it doesn't have a STAB recovery move and Air Slash is a weak secondary STAB. But, it does wall Zard and Heatran to death which is cool.
Mantine has a lot of cool things it can do, but I see other Pokemon with better Speed, Special Attack, and Defense filling these roles better. I guess C rank works.
Ninetales
Yea Zard is better in almost every way. The only time I would ever use it is alongside Zard for a sun hyper offensive team and that is just enough to keep it in D rank imo.
I don't see cloud nine being a niche since Politoed can replace opposing weather with rain which benefits it. Simple Beam is also far to gimmicky to be of good use, and even if you went that route, there are better mons to use. So with no genuine niches, Golduck is frail, weak, and has a meh support movepool. No ranking is needed.
Ludicolo
Cool STABs, Ice Beam, and Fake Out all work great for Ludicolo. It is one of the more reliable Swift Swim sweepers because of its movepool and Giga Drain. However, it has to sacrifice something for Protect, usually, which puts a hole in its sweeping or supporting role. Nollan also showed me an assault vest set, which walls many special threats to oblivion. However, both Swift Swim and Assault Vest sets struggle to function with Ludicolo's piss Defense. It is also quite slow outside of rain which hampers its performance, especially with the rain nerf. I guess a low-ish B rank works.
Abomasnow
I have never really played Abomasnow so I don't want to theorymon over the higher ranked pokemon. I will trust everyone else's opinions.
Mantine
Mantine is in the same boat as Ludicolo. It has a unique-typing and cool special bulk. Heck, Mantine can also sweep with Swift Swim if it is supported properly. Wide Guard is a cool option since it is weak to Discharge and Rock Slide and it does partner well with Heatran who needs some earthquakes blocked. Tailwind is cool too but it is outclassed in that regard. Mantine loses to Ludicolo because it doesn't have a STAB recovery move and Air Slash is a weak secondary STAB. But, it does wall Zard and Heatran to death which is cool.
Mantine has a lot of cool things it can do, but I see other Pokemon with better Speed, Special Attack, and Defense filling these roles better. I guess C rank works.
Ninetales
Yea Zard is better in almost every way. The only time I would ever use it is alongside Zard for a sun hyper offensive team and that is just enough to keep it in D rank imo.
Golduck remains unplaced
Ludicolo is added to B
Mantine is added to C
Abomasnow drops to B
Ninetales remains in D
nominations are unlocked. Check out Bummer 's new awesome logo!
Adding Darkmalice 's discussion over the locked mons to the Hall of Fame.
Ludicolo is added to B
Mantine is added to C
Abomasnow drops to B
Ninetales remains in D
nominations are unlocked. Check out Bummer 's new awesome logo!
Adding Darkmalice 's discussion over the locked mons to the Hall of Fame.
Nominating Kingdra for B rank.
I talked about it briefly in my Ludicolo nomination, and I feel Ludicolo is the best comparison to Kingdra. Kingdra is an excellent sweeper in rain, with good coverage with its STABs and a spread attack in the form of Muddy Water, the best rain sweeper (this is my opinion, but I admit this is debatable). It only needs 3 attacks to function (Muddy Water, Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor, and Protect), which gives you a filler moveslot to suit your team, like Rain Dance for further rain support, Sub, Disable and more. But it provides less support than Ludicolo - it lacks Fake Out, and the Grass STAB is more crucial for covering threats to its team - mainly bulky Water-types that are good at checking rain teams like Rotom-W. Whilst not entirely dependent on rain, it is significantly hampered without it almost to the point that it wouldn't be considered for a team without it. 95 SpA is bad for a sweeper, and its stats are outclassed by higher base stat Dragon-types. In comparison. Ludicolo is better outside of rain thanks to its unique typing, bulk, and Fake Out.
It's also worth noting that Kingdra isn't as good in rain as it was last gen. It's STABs have been nerfed in power, Pokemon are generally bulkier, Dragon-types are nerfed with the introduction of Fairy-types, and opposing weather starters are more common and have mega evos. Some big threats have been introduced this gen like Mega ZardY, Mega Gard, Togekiss, Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Whimsicott, and Mega Kan (who wins 1v1 by virtue of raw stats and Parental Bond). You also have the opportunity cost of the choice of another Swift Swimmer, as most well-made rain teams struggle to fit more than one Swift Swim users on the team and make a well-balanced rain teams in terms of diversity and keeping opposing teams in check.
To conclude
-excellent in rain and best rain sweeper; not as good as last gen but still great
-dependent on rain
-competition with other swift swimmers (ludicolo being the main one)
-harder to maintain rain this generation
B-rank. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in A-rank, but I feel B-rank is better.
I talked about it briefly in my Ludicolo nomination, and I feel Ludicolo is the best comparison to Kingdra. Kingdra is an excellent sweeper in rain, with good coverage with its STABs and a spread attack in the form of Muddy Water, the best rain sweeper (this is my opinion, but I admit this is debatable). It only needs 3 attacks to function (Muddy Water, Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor, and Protect), which gives you a filler moveslot to suit your team, like Rain Dance for further rain support, Sub, Disable and more. But it provides less support than Ludicolo - it lacks Fake Out, and the Grass STAB is more crucial for covering threats to its team - mainly bulky Water-types that are good at checking rain teams like Rotom-W. Whilst not entirely dependent on rain, it is significantly hampered without it almost to the point that it wouldn't be considered for a team without it. 95 SpA is bad for a sweeper, and its stats are outclassed by higher base stat Dragon-types. In comparison. Ludicolo is better outside of rain thanks to its unique typing, bulk, and Fake Out.
It's also worth noting that Kingdra isn't as good in rain as it was last gen. It's STABs have been nerfed in power, Pokemon are generally bulkier, Dragon-types are nerfed with the introduction of Fairy-types, and opposing weather starters are more common and have mega evos. Some big threats have been introduced this gen like Mega ZardY, Mega Gard, Togekiss, Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Whimsicott, and Mega Kan (who wins 1v1 by virtue of raw stats and Parental Bond). You also have the opportunity cost of the choice of another Swift Swimmer, as most well-made rain teams struggle to fit more than one Swift Swim users on the team and make a well-balanced rain teams in terms of diversity and keeping opposing teams in check.
To conclude
-excellent in rain and best rain sweeper; not as good as last gen but still great
-dependent on rain
-competition with other swift swimmers (ludicolo being the main one)
-harder to maintain rain this generation
B-rank. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in A-rank, but I feel B-rank is better.
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I'd be ok with A Rank for Kingdra. It's not as great, but I don't think it's lost its competitive edge completely yet. I'll TLDR my reasons though.
PROS
-Best rain Sweeper
-Dual STAB is largely unresisted by anything common in the current metagame
-Decent speed outside Rain (95 ain't terrible when most base 100's run neutral max speed)
-Has some variety in its sets
-Access to great spread moves
-Can easily run a Lategame sweep
-Rain, while being underused, is still a hugely dominating force in Gen 6, as Water has the natural advantage over Fire/Ground/Rock/Steel
CONS
-Needs Rain to be powerful
-Weather Nerf
-BP Nerfs
-Dragon Nerf (Fairy mainly)
-No Gems in Gen 6
Most of Kingdra's Cons come from overall nerfs to the metagame, not specific nerfs to it, which means it's just as potent as it was in Gen5, where it was an overpowering A Rank and was debated at one point for S Rank, as Rain was so powerful.