DP Arceus

http://www.smogon.com:81/dp/pokemon/arceus
Analysis said:
Considering that Arceus has the best overall stats in the Pokémon series (as of now), it's hard to fight with it statistically. Then you run into the fact that it can change into whatever Pokémon type it wants to be. So, with that saying, there's no definite counter except for another Arceus. Even then, you have to be lucky to have a better type match than the other.
While it is already mentioned in the set comments, I think there should be just a touch added on about Giratina being pretty much the only consistent counter to the Swords Dance / Extremespeed set (unless I'm forgetting something). However, I can see that for all the sets it probably does make more sense mentioning set-specific counters in the set comments, because Arceus' multitude of sets would make the individual mini-paragraphs or whatever take up a lot of space.

I think just that this is kind of a too-negative statement as well. I mean, Salamence has no super counter in standards except for maybe Cresselia but its section doesn't read like this. Another thing worth mentioning is that the Plate Arceus holds should be immediately obvious from its sprite (or at least should, I've never played ubers on shoddy before so I don't know if all the sprites are there) and therefore countering Arceus is made a fair bit easier by the fact that you can know its type and probably its set on first sight.

I also have a few rough ideas about a defensive Grass Arceus to wall Palkia (and use STAB Grass Knot in ubers) but it's not tested yet nor is this where I should do proposals.
 

Blue Kirby

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I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.

I think there should be just a touch added on about Giratina being pretty much the only consistent counter to the Swords Dance / Extremespeed set
My impression was that the Counters section at the end of the analysis was to list counters for all or most of the sets, not just the one. For that reason, I think Giratina's mention in just that set is enough. You don't want to give people the wrong idea; Giratina can't touch Dragon Plate Arceus, for example. The point here being that it's just so versatile to counter effectively unless you know beforehand what set it's running.

I think just that this is kind of a too-negative statement as well. I mean, Salamence has no super counter in standards except for maybe Cresselia but its section doesn't read like this.
I know what you're getting at, but Arceus is a completely different ball game. Salamence is based around offense, and can be walled once you know the set it is running. Arceus, on the other hand, can be absolutely any time in the game, and has the stats to go offensive (physical, special, mixed) or wall hits like a champ. Its pure versatility is what the author is conveying here, Arceus can never have a true counter.

I also have a few rough ideas about a defensive Grass Arceus to wall Palkia (and use STAB Grass Knot in ubers) but it's not tested yet nor is this where I should do proposals.
Arceus has a seemingly unlimited plethora of options at it's disposal - I'm not sure it's a great idea to be recommending sets when there are so many possibilities. I think you're considering the analysis as the be all and end all of options available - it really acts as more of a guide which can easily be deviated from, especially when using a Pokemon such as Arceus.
 
I'm not entirely sure I agree with you.



My impression was that the Counters section at the end of the analysis was to list counters for all or most of the sets, not just the one. For that reason, I think Giratina's mention in just that set is enough. You don't want to give people the wrong idea; Giratina can't touch Dragon Plate Arceus, for example. The point here being that it's just so versatile to counter effectively unless you know beforehand what set it's running.
Yeah, I sorta realized that aspect of it and did mention that listing all set counters would be tedious, but ok I realize that the section should probably be restricted to general counters. Unless I'm mistaken though Swords Dance Arceus is the most commonly seen variant (or at least it was the most demanded for a giveaway).

I know what you're getting at, but Arceus is a completely different ball game. Salamence is based around offense, and can be walled once you know the set it is running. Arceus, on the other hand, can be absolutely any time in the game, and has the stats to go offensive (physical, special, mixed) or wall hits like a champ. Its pure versatility is what the author is conveying here, Arceus can never have a true counter.
I think Arceus is a bit more predictable because the plates & sprite give away it's type, as mentioned in my first post. But yes, outside of that it's hard.

Arceus has a seemingly unlimited plethora of options at it's disposal - I'm not sure it's a great idea to be recommending sets when there are so many possibilities. I think you're considering the analysis as the be all and end all of options available - it really acts as more of a guide which can easily be deviated from, especially when using a Pokemon such as Arceus.
The thing about Grass Arceus was more or less just a little side-note, not really a part of my suggestions. Come on though, half the point of the analyses is recommending sets; yes there are many options available especially in the case at hand but we want to evaluate most of the good ones in the analysis, especially if they're good enough that they're commonly seen.
 

Blue Kirby

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Unless I'm mistaken though Swords Dance Arceus is the most commonly seen variant (or at least it was the most demanded for a giveaway).
Perhaps, but that's just right now.
It would be tedious to change the Counters list for "the most commonly seen variant" every time there was a shift in the metagame. Previously, the most commonly seen variant was the "Anti-Metagame" version, with either a Dark/Ghost/Bug Plate.

I think Arceus is a bit more predictable because the plates & sprite give away it's type, as mentioned in my first post. But yes, outside of that it's hard.
I don't see the significance of this. The point I'm making is when building a Uber team, if you want to counter Arceus, it is next to impossible because there are just so many sets an opponent using Arceus could use; there's no plausible way to counter them all, it's really just a matter of luck.

yes there are many options available especially in the case at hand but we want to evaluate most of the good ones in the analysis, especially if they're good enough that they're commonly seen.
While that's true, I'm yet to see a Grass type Arceus; it's only advantage would be hitting Groudon and Kyogre. Aside from that, I don't see its use, and you haven't elaborated on your idea as of yet.
 
Perhaps, but that's just right now.
It would be tedious to change the Counters list for "the most commonly seen variant" every time there was a shift in the metagame. Previously, the most commonly seen variant was the "Anti-Metagame" version, with either a Dark/Ghost/Bug Plate.
Point taken.

I don't see the significance of this. The point I'm making is when building a Uber team, if you want to counter Arceus, it is next to impossible because there are just so many sets an opponent using Arceus could use; there's no plausible way to counter them all, it's really just a matter of luck.
I do. If I see a Fighting Arceus, I can be fairly confident it's not trying to sweep, because Fighting is a horrible sweeping type in Ubers. Unless it really wants to use Leftovers or Choice something, Arceus has no practical reason to stay normal-typed other than to use Extremespeed, which would allow me to conclude a Normal Arceus is an Extremespeed/Swords Dance user. Ghost/Bug/Dragon Arceus could be a multitude of things, but I hope you see my point that some possibilities can be narrowed down by typing and logic.

While that's true, I'm yet to see a Grass type Arceus; it's only advantage would be hitting Groudon and Kyogre. Aside from that, I don't see its use, and you haven't elaborated on your idea as of yet.
I'd rather not go into detail here because it's not the place and I don't have set EV's or calculations, but since you're asking for it I'll start. Basic concept is that with a defensive build Arceus should be able to take Spacial Rends from Palkia as 3HKO's and resist Surf/Aqua Tail/Thunder, thereby walling standard Palkia which ordinarily has no counter beside prediction. Additionally, on paper it makes a fairly good switch into the weather ubers (I think I can build it to be 3HKO'd by Kyogre Ice Beams, and it resists Groudon's Earthquake. I don't think Overheat even with the massive power will OHKO, but I can check). Obvious moves would be Grass Knot/Recover, and fillers like Ice Beam or Earthquake (not both) would allow fairly good offensive type coverage as well.

Again let me re-iterate: Grass Arceus is not part of my suggestions, I mentioned it in passing. Don't evaluate it at this time/in this thread please.
 

Blue Kirby

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I do. If I see a Fighting Arceus, I can be fairly confident it's not trying to sweep, because Fighting is a horrible sweeping type in Ubers. Unless it really wants to use Leftovers or Choice something, Arceus has no practical reason to stay normal-typed other than to use Extremespeed, which would allow me to conclude a Normal Arceus is an Extremespeed/Swords Dance user. Ghost/Bug/Dragon Arceus could be a multitude of things, but I hope you see my point that some possibilities can be narrowed down by typing and logic.
While you're correct in being able to make assumptions based on the Arceus being sent out into battle, the point I'm making is that when trying to prepare for your team for Arceus, you have no idea what you're up against until the Arceus is actually sent into battle, at which time you no longer have the luxury of tweaking your team.

That is the point being conveyed in the analysis; Arceus has the potential to sweep and tank, and you can never really be sure of the type you'll see in your next battle. For example, I could stick a Dialga on my team to deal with a possible Outrage threat from Rayquaza, and that's a surefire counter, but what am I going to put on my team to counter Arceus? The amount of scenarios that come up based on what you could face is why Arceus is so hard to effectively counter. You can come up with a plan once that sense of unknown is gone, but in the buildup prior to battling Arceus, there's no true way to be prepared.

As for your defensive Grass Arceus idea, I'd like to see you develop that idea further, because it sounds like it could be pretty promising, and I am aware that it was just an afterthought. :)
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
This is my Arceus analysis that is pending cache:
Enjoy.
[SET]
name: Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extremespeed
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Shadow Claw / Overheat
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Of the many options Arceus has, this set is perhaps one of the most fearsome that exist. With Arceus's bulkiness, it should have no problem finding a niche for one Swords Dance, and maybe even two or three. Because it doesn't particularly care about paralysis from Thunder as Extremespeed's priority advantage nullifies the speed loss (in fact, it is arguably beneficial for this flavor of Arceus to be paralyzed because then it can't be burned and have its attacking ability reduced), one may switch this Arceus on weak attackers such as Blissey with impunity. After even a single Swords Dance, Extremespeed will OHKO all Darkrai, Palkia, and Latias unless they invest significantly in Defense, and has a considerable chance of OHKOing the standard 40 HP EVs Mewtwo, assuming that one has at least a Silk Scarf boost. Earthquake smashes Dialga and Metagross into the ground without question. For the last move, Shadow Claw is the preferred choice since it lands super-effective hits on the Uber physical walls of Lugia and Giratina; however, Overheat is an acceptable move to annihilate Skarmory and Forretress.</p>

<p>The EV spread for this Arceus provides for a combination of bulkiness and power; Speed isn't necessary as Extremespeed, this set's main attack, will attack before most other offensive moves regardless. Silk Scarf will net Extremespeed 20% more power, a boost that is critical to OHKOing many Uber threats at full health, whereas Life Orb will provide even more power to all of Arceus's attacks at the expense of some health every time it inflicts damage. While Life Orb does contradict this set's bulky sweeper theme, it will allow Arceus OHKO the standard Mewtwo all the time and often 2HKO Giratina with a Swords Danced Shadow Claw, OHKOing guaranteed with a critical hit.</p>

<p>While this set often rips through half a team or more, it is often advisable to only use Extremespeed when it is needed, as its meager 8 PP is easily expended hitting Lugias and Giratinas that don't care about it; what aggravates the PP problems is that many Ubers, including the afore-mentioned Giratina and Lugia, have the Pressure ability, which doubles PP usage for direct attacks. With its main asset gone, this Arceus is effectively spayed and neutered. As long as one doesn't play in an abnormally poor fashion, however, these statements should never stand to discourage one from taking advantage of the divine terror that this set is.</p>

[SET]
name: Physical Ghost Sweeper
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Shadow Claw
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Recover / Substitute
item: Spooky Plate
nature: Jolly
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set, similarly to the previous one, makes for a preposterously powerful physical sweeper; this Arceus, however, attempts to take advantage of its excellent 120 base Speed instead of a priority move, paving the way for receiving STAB on a Ghost attack. Overall, physical Ghost Arceus strives to pound upon the two major weaknesses of many Ubers, namely their general weakness to Ghost attacks and often inferior physical Defense. As well as looking similar to the Extreme Killer Arceus, physical Ghost Arceus also plays in much the same way. Note that it is unable to switch in as easily because it is less bulky and fears paralysis, for Speed is the paramount consideration on this set.</p>

<p>Shadow Claw backed by STAB is an exceedingly effective weapon against the Uber environment and can shred almost everything weak to it, which becomes truer when it is backed by a Swords Dance. Brick Break complements Shadow Claw beautifully in terms of type coverage (nothing in the game resists the combination of Fighting and Ghost) and wrecks the Dialga, Blissey, Darkrai, and other assorted Pokemon that are resistant to Ghost. For the last move, Recover is generally the more reliable option to keep Arceus's HP up, but Substitute may be used by those wishing to set up on Blissey without the reciprocal threat of paralysis from Thunder or severe poisoning from Toxic, or those seeking greater security against Giratina's Will-o-Wisp. For the most part, the Substitute should be able to withstand one Blissey Thunder or Giratina Dragon Claw, unless they have invested a large amount of offensive EVs. Meanwhile, the EVs provided for this set allow Ghost Arceus to outspeed all members of the base 110 Speed group and below, which includes some nasty foes such as Latias, Latios, and Lugia. Attack is maximized, obviously, to increase damage infliction, and the remaining EVs are dumped into HP, which fortuitously returns 401, allowing Arceus to make four Substitutes without recovering through Wish, and aids in taking residual damages that come in fractions of 16.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind Sweeper
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Calm Mind
move 4: Recover / Substitute
item: Dread Plate / Spooky Plate / Insect Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set, in contrast with first two physical sets, relies on its Special Attack, Calm Mind to boost its Special stats, and a Judgment that is super-effective on the predominantly Psychic Uber Pokemon. The types that hit the Psychics well happen to be Ghost, Dark, and Bug, which should be chosen according to one's team. Ghost is immune to Explosion from Pokemon like Forretress and Fighting attacks, which are popular due to the advent of Aura Sphere, but is weak to both Dark and Ghost, two types that occur very frequently to strike Psychics at their weak points. Dark is resistant to Dark and Ghost, but weak to Fighting and lacks an immunity to Normal attacks. Lastly, Bug doesn't have too many useful resistances except perhaps Ground to switch in on Groudon and hits not very effectively against Ghost types like Giratina, but has the advantage of being super effective on Dark and Psychic simultaneously.</p>

<p>Generally, this Arceus variant aims to use Calm Mind to boost its Special Attack significantly and then spam Judgment repeatedly until it hits an obstruction in the form of a Pokemon that resists or is immune to the type that its Judgment is; that is where the second move, Ice Beam, comes in, as Ice is generally a very effective type coverage attack to use in Ubers. Depending on the team, another special attack from Arceus's massive artillery could be preferable, though. Remember to resist the temptation to use Dragon Pulse, however; the only Ubers it hits harder than Ice Beam are Manaphy, Kyogre, and Palkia, all three of which Judgment hits with equal or increased power. As with the previous Ghost sweeper set, Calm Mind Arceus has a choice between Substitute and Recover, again a question between reliability and utility. Substitute often comes in handy to aid prediction and prevent critical hits and status effects, but as Calm Mind is a rather slow way of setting up, the lack of recovery may do Arceus in; additionally, Substitute makes winning against Blissey or Latias much more difficult.</p>

<p>As can be easily seen, the EVs for Calm Mind Arceus are not dissimilar to those of the Ghost Swords Dancer, with the exception of the transfer of Attack EVs to Special Attack, and function almost identically.</p>

[SET]
name: Countering Utility #1
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Fist Plate
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 96 SpA / 32 SpD / 56 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While a Fighting type Arceus seems extremely stupid to use in Ubers owing to the many Psychic Pokemon that exist in Ubers, it is through that very overabundance that Fighting Arceus can thrive. As Psychic resists itself, Psychic attacks are rarely used in Ubers, usually being eschewed for a secondary STAB or another type altogether. Fighting's other weakness, Flying, is nowhere to be seen, and it offers very useful Rock, Bug, and Dark resistances to atone for its certain degree of offensive ineptitude. As a result of its strange typing, Fighting Arceus has become one of the primary building blocks of the Uber stall metagame owing to its consequent ability to safely counter almost all Darkrai and Tyranitar, two Dark types that would otherwise ravage such stall teams. Of course, it is capable of dealing with many other Pokemon as well, such as Groudon and Dialga to some extent. Overall, it is extremely difficult to overcome outside of random Pokemon carrying Psychic attacks, such as a Choice Banded Zen Headbutt Deoxys-A.</p>

<p>The moveset for Fighting Arceus is geared towards countering a wide array of Pokemon and crippling another huge selection. Though many Uber Pokemon are Psychic typed, a Fighting typed Judgment still has its uses on Pokemon such as Dialga, Tyranitar, and Darkrai, and still lands a solid hit on Kyogre and Palkia. As has already been stressed, Ice Beam is an exceptional move to round out almost any special attacker in Ubers; it boasts fairly good type coverage with Fighting to sweeten the bargain. Recover is almost a sine qua non for an Arceus as defensive as this, and obviously serves to maintain its health. Toxic rounds out Fighting Arceus's moveset, allowing it to annoy many would-be counters such as Ho-oh and Lugia; most Steel types wouldn't dare switch in and face a powerful super-effective Judgment.</p>

<p>Careful consideration has gone into the EV spread for this set. Maximum HP gives Arceus a decent amount of overall survivability to begin with. Meanwhile, 72 EVs in Defense used in tandem with maximum HP allows it to survive one Outrage from an Adamant, maximum Attack Rayquaza that has been boosted by both Life Orb and one Dragon Dance; therefore, provided it is kept in excellent health, Fighting Arceus becomes a veritable counter to Rayquaza. The modest Speed investment attains a figure of 290, which outruns all Rayquazas that have not a Speed boost from Dragon Dance, and also keeps Arceus ahead of most Dialga, Giratina, and Groudon. The EVs in Special Attack and Special Defense may appear arbitrary, and one would be correct in thinking them so; the Special Attack is simply a convenient benchmark that achieves a bonus stat point due to the manner in which stats are calculated, and the rest is dumped into Special Defense to provide some degree of buffering in that sector. If one would like, one could easily remove some EVs from the Special stats in favor of a Speed increase to 307, to outrun all Groudon, Kyogre, and such that do not have a Speed modifier, or even to 320, which outpaces all Rayquaza and any Latias and Lugia that don't have a Speed-boosting nature.</p>

[SET]
name: Countering Utility #2
move 1: Grass Knot
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Thunder / Calm Mind
item: Meadow Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 232 HP / 80 Def / 100 SpD / 96 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Continuing with the theme of odd types that are surprisingly useful is Grass Arceus. While Grass is commonly considered an inferior type because it is resisted by 7 types and has 5 weaknesses, the only one of its weaknesses that is particularly common in Ubers is Ice, while its resistances to Water, Electric, and Ground come very much in handy. The premise of this set is very simple and the execution of its purpose isn't particularly complicated either. Grass Arceus can use its numerous useful resistances to counter some of the most fearsome Pokemon that exist, such as Groudon, Palkia, and Rayquaza, and in certain circumstances can even serve as a sketchy counter to Kyogre.</p>

<p>In this set, Judgment is replaced by Grass Knot for two reasons: Grass Knot receives double the PP, which is helpful when battling against the Pressure Pokemon of Ubers, and hits almost every Uber for equal or more damage, as most of the Ubers are extremely heavy. However, Judgment is still a decently viable option if one is paranoid of Mew. Ice Beam is simply bog standard, to hit the various Dragon type Pokemon and others that resist Grass. This set's primary function is to take hits and counter certain Pokemon, so Recover is virtually required to maintain a reasonable state of health, a proposition made imperative by this Arceus's lack of Leftovers. For the last move, Thunder provides additional type coverage and hits some Pokemon such as Ho-oh and Metagross that this set otherwise can't touch, while Calm Mind buffs up the attacking power of Grass Knot and Ice Beam, and can come in handy when trying to counter special-based Pokemon; the decision should be based on the rest of one's team.</p>

<p>Every single 4 EV increment in this Arceus's spread serves a specific purpose. In conjunction with a Timid nature, 96 Speed EVs translate into 330 Speed, which outruns all Palkia, even those with a Speed boosting nature, while the HP and Special Defense EVs take advantage of that and ensures that Arceus will survive two Life Orb boosted Spacial Rends from a Hasty Palkia, assuming neither of them is a critical hit. Meanwhile, the Defense allows for an easier switch into Groudon and lets it survive one Life Orb and Dragon Dance boosted Outrage from Adamant Rayquaza; therefore, this type of Arceus, like the Fighting one before it, can switch into such a Rayquaza with little liability and OHKO with Ice Beam. One may notice that the HP EVs are not maximized in this set. The reason for this is that on something with as much HP as Arceus, a single point in Defense or Special Defense matters more, and consequently a maximum HP Arceus is incapable of simultaneously accomplishing the two tasks listed above.</p>

[SET]
name: Countering Utility #3
move 1: Return
move 2: Recover
move 3: Will-o-Wisp / Toxic
move 4: Roar / Perish Song / Punishment
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A defensive Normal Arceus has the benefit of being able to use Leftovers instead of a typed plate, which is an enormous initial plus. While a Normal type isn't necessarily the best offensive or defensive one, it bears a single weakness to Fighting, which is certainly not the worst in the Uber environment, and an immunity to Ghost, which can help it switch into Shadow Balls and Shadow Claws. The primary reason for using this Arceus would be to counter the standard Jolly Ghost Swords Dance Arceus, though it could also be used against Groudon and other physical attackers.</p>

<p>Return is a solid move on Normal Arceus, for it is both physical and STABed; not too many Ubers resist Normal, though Dialga and Giratina come to mind. Recover is standard fare on any defensive Arceus, as the alert and intelligent reader should have realized by now. The third moveslot includes the status attack of one's choice: Will-o-Wisp's burning effect will deter and shatter any Groudon, Metagross, or Swords Dancing Arceus that doesn't have Substitute, while Toxic works on a wider range of targets. Overall, Will-o-Wisp seems more geared to the physical-Pokemon-countering nature of this set. The last move includes three options to deal with opponents that attempt to up their stats in preparation for a sweep. Roar blasts away any Substitutes that had been set up as well as the stat boosts themselves, but fails against the last Pokemon. Perish Song virtually guarantees that the last Pokemon loses and also works its way behind a Substitute, but its effect isn't immediate. Lastly, Punishment might seem puny at a minuscule 60 base power, but it gains 20 base power for every stat up the opponent has; this means that after a single Calm Mind or Swords Dance, it jumps up to 100 base power, which is expanded even more because its type is Dark, which hits super-effectively upon the plethora of Psychics in Ubers, and the Ghost Arceus which this Arceus intends to counter.</p>

<p>Much HP and Defense were required to ensure that Normal Arceus is never 2HKOed by a Jolly Ghost Arceus's Brick Break after a single Swords Dance, and the inadvertent consequence was a general ease in switching in upon almost every physical attacker. Serendipitously, the remaining 16 EVs, when invested into Speed, let this Arceus outrun any Groudon that does not carry a Speed boosting nature.</p>

[SET]
name: Physical Mono-Attacker
move 1: Dragon Claw / X-Scissor
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Recover / Rest
move 4: Substitute / Sleep Talk
item: Draco Plate / Insect Plate
nature: Jolly
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>An Arceus that attacks with only one type is in fact a splendid choice, as foregoing a secondary attack permits it to utilize both Recover to restore health and Substitute to prevent status. Two types fit the bill for this type of set, which are Dragon and Bug. Dragon tends to be used more often and hits neutral on everything except the Metagross, Forretress, and odd Skarmory, while Bug lands super-effectively on many Pokemon, but is also resisted severely by several, including Dialga, Ho-oh, the latter two of the afore-mentioned Steel types, and most importantly, Giratina, which is a monumental detriment and shame.</p>

<p>The attacking move that one chooses should be based upon which plate one decides to use; obviously, pick the one that receives a STAB boost. Swords Dance will boost Attack sharply while Recover and Substitute maintain good overall health. Rest and Sleep Talk is another option that will fulfill that task, but generally a Swords Dancing Arceus isn't quite bulky enough to make exceptional use out of it. The EV spread given in this set should have been ingrained within one's mind by now: the Speed is enough as to be faster than the base 110 Speed bracket, while one attacking stat is maximized and the remainder dumped in HP.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Mono-Attacker
move 1: Judgment / Dark Pulse
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover / Rest
move 4: Substitute / Refresh / Sleep Talk
item: Draco Plate / Dread Plate / Icicle Plate / Insect Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 92 HP / 240 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is the special counterpart of the previous set, which attempts to use special attacks and Calm Mind to sweep. Dragon, Dark, Ice, and Bug are all acceptable types to use as a mono-attacker: Dragon hits many Pokemon neutrally and very few ineffectively, and is a decent defensive type, Dark hits many Uber Pokemon super-effectively and has a neat Ghost type resistance, Ice is as usual a nice type to use, and its single resistance, itself, receives some merit in Ubers, and Bug either hits a Pokemon very effectively or fails.</p>

<p>Judgment is the usual fare on Arceus, but Dark Pulse could possibly receive some use on the Dark typed one because its higher PP allows for more chances to land a critical hit on a Calm Mind Blissey and proceed to sweep the Pressure-thick environment. The 20% chance of flinching is also quite appreciated. Recover and Substitute tends to be the most reliable combination of supporting attacks on this moveset, but Rest and Sleep Talk are far more viable than on the previous physical version because Calm Mind trades a quick Attack booster to a slower Special Attack booster that simultaneously aids Special Defense, changing the complexion of the mono-attacking Arceus to a more defensive tone. Refresh can be used in tandem with Recover to remove any unpreventable status conditions such as poisoning from Toxic Spikes. The EVs for this set hit 404 HP; therefore, a single Seismic Toss from any Blissey foolhardy enough to use it in Ubers will be incapable of breaking a Substitute. If one is not using Substitute, maximizing Special Attack remains an option. As always, the Speed exceeds that of Latias and Lugia.</p>

[SET]
name: Revenge
move 1: Extremespeed
move 2: Punishment
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Overheat
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Arceus's talents aren't limited to setting up and sweeping or defending; it can also make a solid revenge killer. A Choice Band will bloat its Attack to enormous levels while it strikes at many foes, such as Mewtwo and Darkrai, with a charged-up Extremespeed, often knocking them out if they're at or below three-quarters of their HP. For the slower Pokemon that have used multiple stat-upping moves such as Latias and Groudon, there's an extremely powerful Punishment attack in store, which can easily skyrocket to something in the region of 180 base power if one has been stockpiling significantly. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are straightforward type coverage attacks; Earthquake slams Dialga and Metagross, while Dragon Claw is primarily used for Giratina, but can also hit Palkia and Latias in a pinch. Overheat is a reasonable option over Earthquake to deal decent damage to Metagross while brutally extirpating Forretress. The given EVs outspeed most Latias that attempt to in turn outrun all Palkia, but one could easily elect to maximize the Speed. This set carries neither the countering capabilities of some Arceus nor the extreme sweeping windows of the rest, but it derives notable value from its unpredictability.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>There are literally millions of remotely viable combinations that Arceus may use, but some of the more prominent ones shall be noted. An Arceus with a Toxic Plate can be quite difficult for a stall team that primarily relies on Toxic Spikes for damage by absorbing them, while an Arceus with a Splash Plate can serve as either a powerful physical attacker with Swords Dance and Waterfall on a rain-based team or a decent counter for random Pokemon. As for moves, Arceus receives a bundle of support options. Reflect and Light Screen are emergency stops to many sweepers and up the entire team's defenses for 5 turns, while Safeguard protects the team from status, even Toxic Spikes. Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave are generic utilities to aid in wearing down the opposition. Gravity and Trick Room are field effects that possibly might help certain theme teams, although Arceus's 120 base Speed is undeniably rather excessive for the latter... Arceus can become a duplicate or a counter for almost any Pokemon; the possibilities have an end, but that number is likely in the trillions.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Arceus's EVs are entirely dependent on the set, so just use the ones that accompany each one.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>The pre-battle tintinnabulations completed, stare in pure, unadulturated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokemon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become an evanescent wisp.</p>

[Counters]
<p>As versatile as Arceus is, every individual set is entirely counterable. Giratina and Lugia can switch in on an Extreme Killer set very easily with their ridiculous Defense and HP and burn or Whirlwind it away, respectively; additionally, intelligent switching lets them use their Pressure ability to disintegrate its meager 8 Extremespeed PP. Skarmory works similarly to Lugia, although the Overheat version squashes it. However, Skarmory is also capable of dealing with the Ghost Swords Dancer, a distinction shared by the insanely defensive Normal Arceus, which can Will-o-Wisp or inflict serious damage on both species of Arceus. A very defensive Choice Band Groudon can also counter the Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, barring a critical hit from Shadow Claw. While not a counter in adherence to its strictest definition, a Kyogre with Choice Scarf can switch in after it has knocked something out</p>

<p>All counters to the Swords Dance Ghost Arceus except the Normal Arceus must caution against walking directly into a Calm Mind version, though. Speaking of the Calm Mind versions with an auxiliary attack, Blissey can use Toxic to wear them down if they have Recover; if they have Substitute, that means they lack any recovery whatsoever, which a Calm Minding Blissey can counter by breaking the Substitutes down slowly. If the Calm Mind sweeper is Ghost, then a Normal Arceus will be able to switch in on its relatively weak Ice Beams and use Toxic or Punishment, while a Bug type sweeper is devastated by Heatran and Ho-oh, which sport excellent resistances to its attacks and do considerable chunks of damage with Fire type attacks that are likely boosted by sunny weather. Dialga resists all three types that Calm Mind Arceus come in and takes little damage from Ice Beam given adequate Special Defense EVs and uses Bulk Up to power up its eventual Dragon Claw.</p>

<p>The mono-attacking sets are a bit complicated to counter as it is difficult to inflict any type of lasting damage due to the combination of Substitute and Recover or Rest and Sleep Talk. The Bug types are the easiest to counter; Giratina with Roar can remove any stat boosts as well as a possible Substitute, Dialga can up its stats with Bulk Up while resisting Bug, and Ho-oh and Heatran sport quadruple resistances to Bug and powerful Fire type attacks to retaliate with. Also, Lugia can switch in if there is an emergency and sponge a hit with its massive Special Defense or Defense while removing Arceus temporarily with Whirlwind. The Ice type special sweeper is relatively easy to deal with, as well; the Fire types still work, and Kyogre with Calm Mind rends it apart due to resistance to Ice. Metagross can switch in and use a Choice Banded Meteor Mash to easily depose of Arceus. Dialga is an excellent choice again for the Dark type, as is a Fighting type Arceus; Calm Mind may overwhelm the latter, though. Lastly, the Dragon type is countered by Metagross, and Forretress if it is physical.</p>

<p>The Choice Band set is relatively simple to counter. Giratina can switch into any attack, even a Dragon Claw, and then one may work on switching in Pokemon that resist the chosen attack; to ease matters, Giratina's Pressure ability ruins Extremespeed and Punishment. The Arceus that are designed to counter other Pokemon are usually beaten by a solid attacker that is not weak to one of their attacks. Any non-Poison or Steel type must beware of Toxic, however.</p>
 
[SET]
name: Countering Utility #2
move 1: Grass Knot
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Thunder / Calm Mind
item: Meadow Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 232 HP / 80 Def / 100 SpD / 96 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Continuing with the theme of odd types that are surprisingly useful is Grass Arceus. While Grass is commonly considered an inferior type because it is resisted by 7 types and has 5 weaknesses, the only one of its weaknesses that is particularly common in Ubers is Ice, while its resistances to Water, Electric, and Ground come very much in handy. The premise of this set is very simple and the execution of its purpose isn't particularly complicated either. Grass Arceus can use its numerous useful resistances to counter some of the most fearsome Pokemon that exist, such as Groudon, Palkia, and Rayquaza, and in certain circumstances can even serve as a sketchy counter to Kyogre.</p>

<p>In this set, Judgment is replaced by Grass Knot for two reasons: Grass Knot receives double the PP, which is helpful when battling against the Pressure Pokemon of Ubers, and hits almost every Uber for equal or more damage, as most of the Ubers are extremely heavy. However, Judgment is still a decently viable option if one is paranoid of Mew. Ice Beam is simply bog standard, to hit the various Dragon type Pokemon and others that resist Grass. This set's primary function is to take hits and counter certain Pokemon, so Recover is virtually required to maintain a reasonable state of health, a proposition made imperative by this Arceus's lack of Leftovers. For the last move, Thunder provides additional type coverage and hits some Pokemon such as Ho-oh and Metagross that this set otherwise can't touch, while Calm Mind buffs up the attacking power of Grass Knot and Ice Beam, and can come in handy when trying to counter special-based Pokemon; the decision should be based on the rest of one's team.</p>

<p>Every single 4 EV increment in this Arceus's spread serves a specific purpose. In conjunction with a Timid nature, 96 Speed EVs translate into 330 Speed, which outruns all Palkia, even those with a Speed boosting nature, while the HP and Special Defense EVs take advantage of that and ensures that Arceus will survive two Life Orb boosted Spacial Rends from a Hasty Palkia, assuming neither of them is a critical hit. Meanwhile, the Defense allows for an easier switch into Groudon and lets it survive one Life Orb and Dragon Dance boosted Outrage from Adamant Rayquaza; therefore, this type of Arceus, like the Fighting one before it, can switch into such a Rayquaza with little liability and OHKO with Ice Beam. One may notice that the HP EVs are not maximized in this set. The reason for this is that on something with as much HP as Arceus, a single point in Defense or Special Defense matters more, and consequently a maximum HP Arceus is incapable of simultaneously accomplishing the two tasks listed above.</p>
looks like i'm not so original after all. oh well. i really don't have anything to say about this or the other parts in the analysis, great job tackling the most diverse pokemon in the game.
 

Surgo

goes to eleven
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I don't see why you would remove the steel plate Arceus from the analysis, or at least not include a different Steel plate. It's pretty neat as the only damn thing to resist the completely overpowered dragon type, which has a plethora of abusers in ubers. I also don't see why you are removing my comments about the EVs given to the calm mind sweeper with the ghost / dark / bug plate, or even changing the EVs for it. If you're using Substitute, you are going to want 92 EVs in HP. Hell, if it wasn't for the ability to slam stuff like Lugia, I would max out defenses instead of special attack on that set.

I also don't see why you would use Return over Extremespeed on the normal "counter" set. Its utility against scarfers is damn fine; the only issue I can see is pp.

I fail to see how Countering Utility #1 counters Darkrai at all. Darkrai just puts it to sleep and doesn't care.
 
I see no merit in using Bug as your only attack type on the Mono-Attacker sets. You hurt Mewtwo, Mew and Deoxys a little more, but you're much easier to wall overall. Dragon attacks are walled by far fewer Pokemon, which is why the mono Dragon attacker is appealing. Mono Ice attacker also seems a bit weak.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I don't see why you would remove the steel plate Arceus from the analysis, or at least not include a different Steel plate. It's pretty neat as the only damn thing to resist the completely overpowered dragon type, which has a plethora of abusers in ubers. I also don't see why you are removing my comments about the EVs given to the calm mind sweeper with the ghost / dark / bug plate, or even changing the EVs for it. If you're using Substitute, you are going to want 92 EVs in HP. Hell, if it wasn't for the ability to slam stuff like Lugia, I would max out defenses instead of special attack on that set.

Very few Pokemon actually use Night Shade or Seismic Toss in Ubers; with the enormous amount of Pokemon with self-recovery and boosting moves, it is very likely that something like a Blissey with Seismic Toss will be incapable of doing anything but flounder about. As for your comments about the Steel type, it seems on the surface to be a decent type, but really isn't superior to anything else. First, Giratina's Dragon Claw is rather weak, so a lot of things can beat that. Choice Specs Dialga is one opportunity to switch in, but Blissey is far safer because it won't get owned by a predicted Fire Blast or Overheat on the switch, and Fighting Arceus is a better counter for the Bulk Up variants. Grass Arceus counters Palkia more easily. And, while switching in on Rayquaza's Outrage sounds nice, Steel Arceus needs to either sacrifice a teammate or predict the Outrage as to not die to Earthquake, but Grass and Fighting Arceus can switch in to a Dragon Dance with impunity.

I also don't see why you would use Return over Extremespeed on the normal "counter" set. Its utility against scarfers is damn fine; the only issue I can see is pp.
PP is the exact reason why I didn't put Extremespeed there; Pressure just kills it. Besides, the power increase is welcome.

I fail to see how Countering Utility #1 counters Darkrai at all. Darkrai just puts it to sleep and doesn't care.
You could say that about any potential Darkrai counter without Sleep Talk except lol Insomnia/Vital Spirit Pokemon, and then easily respond to that through "Darkrai uses Taunt". There is really no one single Pokemon that can counter Darkrai. However, after Sleep Clause is activated, Fighting Arceus becomes the safest counter to it. (Special defensive Primeape is the wrong answer :P)
I see no merit in using Bug as your only attack type on the Mono-Attacker sets. You hurt Mewtwo, Mew and Deoxys a little more, but you're much easier to wall overall. Dragon attacks are walled by far fewer Pokemon, which is why the mono Dragon attacker is appealing. Mono Ice attacker also seems a bit weak.
Yeah, mono-Bug was one of the things I was shaky on.
 

Blue Kirby

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I'm not sure if I'm being overly nitpicky or something, or maybe I missed the point entirely, but the Grass Arceus description makes it sound like it can switch in on a boosted Outrage and then proceed to KO with Ice Beam, when really you want to be switching in on Dragon Dance to survive the up and coming Outrage.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
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The Arceus is already on the site...it's just waiting the cache.

Anyways, I decided to read it again and i found this:
Lastly, the Dragon type is countered by Metagross, and Forretress if it is physical.
How does Forry counter the Dragon set? Yes, it can eat a Dragon Claw, but can it do anything back to Arceus?
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I'd think so, but that begs the question of "why not use Metagross", because Metagross can actually trap and OHKO Lati@s on the switch with a Choice Banded Pursuit.
 
Granted it's a big advantage, but Pursuit is Metagross' only one over Arceus when it comes to taking on Lati@s. Arceus has better HP/Special Defense and can Recover, so he can switch in more easily and more often. If we're listing specialized sets like the Countering Utility ones, then a Steel Arceus is certainly worth its own set. STAB Steel attacks aren't much use, but Mewtwo and Deoxys manage without using their STAB attacks most of the time. So why not Arceus?
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
SePh will kill me for this, but anyways...

The countering sets aren't really specialized; Fighting and Grass Arceus are capable of countering a wide range of Pokemon, and while Normal Arceus as a defensive Pokemon indeed is specialized, it serves to counter something that almost no other Pokemon can (Ghost Swords Dance Arceus), whereas many other Pokemon can counter Lati@s.
 
Is Toxic Spikes prevalent enough to warrant a Toxic Plate Arceus? Something along the lines of

Arceus@ Toxic Plate
Modest
252 HP-? SpAtk-?Def
Ice Beam
Toxic
Recover
Calm Mind

Psychic weakness doesn't matter because nothing in Ubers actually uses Psychic attacks, except maybe Deoxys Psycho Boost. Toxic as the most consistent damage I guess, with Ice Beam for other crap. Recover/Calm Mind is standard fare.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I put in Toxic Plate as an option; the problem with Poison Arceus is that even with 6 Calm Minds and a critical hit, it will fail to OHKO the standard Uber Blissey. Unfortunately, where Fighting Arceus is resistant to Rock and Dark, Poison is resistant to the less prevalent Bug.
 
Flamethrower (or Fire Blast..) is more of an option as a last moveslot on a Meadow Plate Arceus, obviously it is not that great in the Rain, but on the other hand Thunder totally sucks when it is sunny. :) Really, the only two things you lose coverage on are Ho-oh and Heatran, and both are exclusively used with Goudon support, meaning your Thunder won't hit them... while Fire moves are great for those pesky Metagrosses/Forretresses who otherwise wall Grass Arceus! Also I feel Thunder Wave Arceus a bit too underrated...
 

Jibaku

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I decided to run some calcs. Bulk Up Dialga doesn't counter mono special attacking Arceus. While Arceus' Judgment doesn't seem to do much at first, it only takes 2 Calm Minds for Arceus to 3HKO Dialga with those EVs (vs a max/max Careful Dialga), while Dialga takes 3 Bulk Ups to 2HKO Arceus. That would mean Arceus beats it one on one already, and if that is the case then Dialga isn't a counter to it seeing as it takes an extra turn switching in.
 

Havak

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Just as a side note, not all of the plates are named correctly on the actual page. You probably already knew, though. But I didn't see a mention of it on this page.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
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More stuff aimed at Sage

"Calm Mind" sweeper is a rather pointless set imo. The mono special attacker set has about the same attacking potential AND is capable of resisting Blissey's harmful Toxics. Ice Beam does nothing besides hit Rayquaza, unless you're using a Bug Arceus. I suggest you removing the Calm Mind sweeper set entirely, or at least mention that Ice Beam works on Bug Arceus and not the other two types

I would like to restate what Phuquoph said here, with a few of my own words into the mix. Bug "CM sweeper" Arceus won't get past Blissey anytime soon, while Bug "Mono sweeper" just gets loled by a bunch of stuff. While it does hit the psychics SE, let's see the stuff that walls it

1) Ho-oh: 4x resist to Bug, 154 base SDef, Sacred Fire. I probably don't need to explain anything here. Ho-oh also counters the Ice Beam set

2) Skarmory: 4x resist to Bug, enough SDef to take Judgments, 2HKOes with Brave Bird easily

3) Rayquaza: 2x resist to Bug and sets up Dragon Dance

4) Ghost Arceus: 2x resist to Bug, 120 HP/SDef, and sets up a Swords Dance

5) Heatran: 4x resist to Bug, strong Specs Flamethrower breaks through Calm Minds under the sun

That's a handful, so I'm gonna agree with Phuquoph and remove Bug Arceus from mono attacker
 

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