DP Lucario

[Caelum]

Recently I've been using this set a lot and I've actually found it to work pretty good, particularly late-game when many things are slightly weakened, so I thought I'd do my first peer edit on it. I did my best looking for spelling and grammatical errors but I'm sure it's still full of them.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lucario

[SET]
name: AgiliLuke
move 1: Agility
move 2: Close Combat / Aura Sphere
move 3: Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Life Orb
ability: Inner Focus
nature: Modest / Mild
evs: 80 Atk / 240 SpA / 188 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Lucario is a fearsome threat in the metagame known for his versatility and for his ability as a powerful wall breaker. While Lucario is a powerful threat, his base 90 speed, although still respectable, can limit his ability to sweep due to the myriad of faster threats such as Garchomp and Gengar as well as the abundance of Choice Scarfed Pokemon. This can be fixed with the use of Agility which allows Lucario to outrun positive speed base 110 Pokemon, notably Timid Gengar, holding a Choice Scarf.</p>

<p>The coverage given by Aura Sphere or Close Combat and Shadow Ball is impeccable and allows Lucario to hit every Pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage. Aura Sphere is a generic STAB move and allows Lucario to OHKO Heatran and 2HKO those Blissey that do not invest in special defense, although those that do invest in special defense are 3HKOd with the help of Stealth Rock. If one opts for Close Combat then Blissey is easily knocked out and threats such as Bronzong are more easily handled. Shadow Ball is here to hit everything that Aura Sphere or Close Combat can't, most notably Ghost-types, and this Lucario appreciates the 20% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense which turns many expected 3HKOs to 2HKOs. Dark Pulse is an option over Shadow Ball for the 20% chance of flinching the opponent, although the loss of coverage is marginal. Hidden Power Ice complements this set nicely allowing Lucario to OHKO Gliscor and Garchomp and 2HKO most Zapdos. It should be noted that while this set can function well as a late game cleaner it particularly shines when it is passed a Nasty Plot or two which enables it to take out most of its potential counters.</p>

<p>Focus Blast is an alternative over Aura Sphere if you don't mind the loss of accuracy in exchange for greater power. Notably, Focus Blast allows Lucario to 2HKO even those Blissey that invest significant EVs in Special Defense with Stealth Rock damage. Hidden Power Electric is an option if you fear Gyarados but otherwise is not recommended.</p>

<p>The given EVs assume that Close Combat is being used over Aura Sphere. If one opts for Aura Sphere a Modest nature and a basic spread of 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe is recommended.</p>

 

[User 12783]

Most people prefer to make Lucario a mixed attacker with Agility so it can break down walls so much easier. Close Combat is good at destroying Blissey and other Special Walls, while Gliscor is taken care of by HP Ice. Shadow Ball deals with Ghosts who may stand in your way, and can also take down DX-S.

 

[Caelum]

Most people prefer to make Lucario a mixed attacker with Agility so it can break down walls so much easier. Close Combat is good at destroying Blissey and other Special Walls, while Gliscor is taken care of by HP Ice. Shadow Ball deals with Ghosts who may stand in your way, and can also take down DX-S.

I've done this before as well, each have their pros and cons. If I get a few other people to support this position I'll be more than happy to change it around (I actually have an edited version in case people mentioned this).

 

[User 12783]

If so why not post both sets, or recommend the second in set comments so you at least mention how this AgiliLuke can be suited as a mixed sweeper and wall breaker.

 

[Caelum]

If so why not post both sets, or recommend the second in set comments so you at least mention how this AgiliLuke can be suited as a mixed sweeper and wall breaker.

That's actually not that bad of an idea. I could cut down the comments on both and write a smaller bit on one with Close Combat and different EVs/nature. Even though the change is only 1 move the way the set is played is different enough I think I could break them into slightly different sets. I'll wait till I get some feedback from other people but I actually like this idea because I struggled over that very issue.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

<p>Lucario is a fearsome threat in the metagame known particularly for his versatility with his base 110 Attack and 115 Special Attack. While Lucario is a powerful threat, his base 90 speed, although still respectable, can limit his ability to sweep due to the myriad of faster threats such as Garchomp and Gengar as well as the abundance of Choice Scarfed Pokemon. This dilemma is overcome with the use of Agility which allows Lucario to outrun even maximum speed Deoxys-S and all neutral natured base 120 speed Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf.</p>

just made some changes that i think make it sound better, nothing necessary though.

Shadow Ball is present to hit everything that Aura Sphere can't, most notably ghosts, and this Lucario appreciates the 20% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense which turns many expected 2HKOs into OHKOs.

<p>Focus Blast is an alternative over Aura Sphere if you don't mind the loss of accuracy in exchange for greater power. Focus Blast allows Lucario to 2HKO even those Blisseys that invest significantly in Special Defense with Stealth Rock damage.

1st sentence was a bit of a run on.

rather than mention Dark Pulse in the set comments I'd slash it in next to Shadow Ball. you only lose a couple pokemon worth of coverage and it comes down to whether you want the special down or the flinch which are both really nice.

 

[Pimplup]

<p>While Lucario is a powerful threat[,] his base 90 speed, although still respectable, can limit his ability to sweep because of the myriad of faster threats such as Garchomp and Gengar as well as Choice Scarfed Pokemon such as Heatran. </p>

Changed sentence in bold, really minor nitpick, but without the comma, it's doesn't make much sense.

 

[Caelum]

Took both Pimplup and Jabba's suggestions for the writing and I agree with Jabba to give Dark Pulse mention on the set. Thanks guys.

 

[RaikouLover]

I've debated this many times with people and its ultimately a personal preference, but going Naughty and using Close Combat over Aura Sphere and maxing the physical attack will yield ~30% higher output damage, which is pretty significant. Close Combat's ridiculous base power is reason enough for consideration, and the OHKO on blissey is always a plus. It will lower your hits on Dusknoir and Cresselia, but still does upwards of 40% if you invest in EVs. As for the spread, max attack, pick your speed number and put the rest in special attack.

As for your spread, max speed really isn't needed, especially since Agility is the purpose of the set. I would pick a much lower speed number so you can take the extra hit our two with the HP EVs

 

[jrrrrrrr]

RaikouLover, for your set (which I'm assuming is Agility / Close Combat / Shadow Ball / HP Ice), I would max SpAtk out, pick speed and then dump the rest in Atk. I really doubt that Close Combat would be the main move when using that set and since its really only for Blissey and Bronzong who aren't doing anything to you in return and probably won't even come in, I wouldn't be too concerned about Atk. On the other hand, things like Cresselia, Deoxys and (especially) Celebi need to take as much damage possible from Shadow Ball.

With all that said, I agree with RL that Close Combat is at least needed as an option over Aura Sphere.

 

[Caelum]

RaikouLover, for your set (which I'm assuming is Agility / Close Combat / Shadow Ball / HP Ice), I would max SpAtk out, pick speed and then dump the rest in Atk. I really doubt that Close Combat would be the main move when using that set and since its really only for Blissey and Bronzong who aren't doing anything to you in return and probably won't even come in, I wouldn't be too concerned about Atk. On the other hand, things like Cresselia, Deoxys and (especially) Celebi need to take as much damage possible from Shadow Ball.

With all that said, I agree with RL that Close Combat is at least needed as an option over Aura Sphere.

So, should I put Close Combat alongside Aura Sphere? The only problem with that is it requires an entirely different EV spread. Would mentioning it in the Set Comments with the alternative EV spread be a decent alternative?

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

you missed the Blisseys fix in the last paragraph. right now it says "even those Blissey is that invest significantly" (or that blissey is in possession of something!). also the period i added does sound a bit awkward but basically what i meant to convey there is that the first sentence of the last paragraph is a bit run-onish and can be broken in to 2 sentences.

 

[Caelum]

you missed the Blisseys fix in the last paragraph. right now it says "even those Blissey is that invest significantly" (or that blissey is in possession of something!). also the period i added does sound a bit awkward but basically what i meant to convey there is that the first sentence of the last paragraph is a bit run-onish and can be broken in to 2 sentences.

Gah, I made your last box changes but I guess I forgot to hit edit post or whatever it says.

Edit: I think I fixed the run on sentence deal. My english teachers always comment about that to me.

 

[junior]

I actually posted this on stark a while back and when I was using it, it worked excellently for me.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Mild
EVs: 80 Atk, 188 Spe, 240 SAtk
~ Close Combat
~ Agility
~ Shadow Ball
~ Hidden Power Ice

The given Atk EVs will allow you to OHKO the uncommon, yet still used, 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey.
The Speed EVs lets you outspeed Choice Scarfed Pokemon with 110 base Speed and positive nature (Gengar).
Rest is dumped into SpA.

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Lucario is a fearsome threat in the metagame, known particularly for his versatility with his base 110 Attack and 115 Special Attack. While Lucario is a powerful threat, his base 90 speed, although still respectable, can limit his ability to sweep due to the myriad of faster threats such as Garchomp and Gengar, as well as the abundance of Choice Scarfed Pokemon. This dilemma can be overcame with the use of Agility, which allows Lucario to outrun even maximum speed Deoxys-S and all neutral natured base 120 Speed Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf.</p>

Actually he's well known because of his SD set, ability to OHKO most walls after an SD and having priority attacks to compensate for his Speed.

<p>The coverage given by Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball is impeccable and allows Lucario to hit every Pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage. Aura Sphere is a generic STAB move and allows Lucario to OHKO Heatran and 2HKO those Blissey that do not invest in special defense, although even those that do invest in special defense are hit with a 3HKO if Blissey takes Stealth Rock damage. Shadow Ball is present to hit everything that Aura Sphere can't, most notably Ghost-types, and this Lucario appreciates the 20% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense which turns many expected 2HKOs into OHKOs. However, Dark Pulse is an option over Shadow Ball for the 20% chance of flinching the opponent, although the loss of coverage is marginal. Hidden Power Ice complements this set nicely allowing Lucario to OHKO Gliscor and Garchomp and 2HKO most Zapdos. It should be noted that while this set can function well as a late game cleaner, it particularly shines when it is passed a Nasty Plot or two which enables it to take out most potential counters.</p>

<p>Focus Blast is an alternative over Aura Sphere if you don't mind the loss of accuracy in exchange for greater power. Notably, Focus Blast allows Lucario to 2HKO even those Blissey that invest significant EVs in Special Defense with Stealth Rock damage. Hidden Power Electric is an option if you fear Gyarados but otherwise is not recommended.</p>

 

[darkie]

<p>Focus Blast is an alternative over Aura Sphere if you don't mind the loss of accuracy in exchange for greater power. Notably, Focus Blast allows Lucario to 2HKO even those Blissey that invest significantly in Special Defense with Stealth Rock damage. Hidden Power Electric is an option if you fear Gyarados but otherwise is not recommended.</p>

Pokémon are the same plural and singular.

edit: oof, I just noticed that Junior beat me D:! I'm gonna say that Close Combat is indeed the superior option to hit Blissey and Bronzong. Junior's EVs look good with Close Combat.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Pokémon are the same plural and singular.

oh wow you learn something new every day O_o (that's gonna be a hard habit to fix :/)

also i was going to support close combat as an option over Aura Sphere but after running some calcs i found the move used is high irrelevant as they generally do the same with the spread junior recommended. trading in speed evs and being forced to use a -def/sp def nature doesn't seem worth gaining the ohko on a largely declining pokemon. and on top of that the def reduction from close combat makes it much easier to be priority killed or beaten by a pokemon that you can only hit neutral. i mean you might want to mention it in the set comments, but i don't think it deserves to be listed in the set itself.

 

[Caelum]

I tend to agree with Jabba but since so many of you support mentioning Close Combat>Aura Sphere I'm asking should I add something to the end of the set comments such as

"Close Combat can be used over Aura Sphere with the EVs 80 Atk / 240 SpA/ 188 Spe and a Mild Nature which allows Lucario to handle Blissey and Bronzong significantly. The EVs given will allow you to outrun positive Speed natured base 110 Pokemon after an Agility."

or should I just add an entirely different set onto this with Close Combat>Aura Sphere and then the different EVs. Just a thought.

Also, I changed the set to junior's suggestions.

 

[User 12783]

No, don't add another set, just add that statement, it seems alright.

 

[RaikouLover]

I guess it depends on the specific purpose. From my experience, Close Combat lets Lucario sweep better, and with maxed physical attack will put a hurting on ANYTHING non-resistant. Hell, it does over 80% to Garchomp to give you an idea of its power. I wouldn't settle for sitting at 80 EVs unless you specifically want this set to serve as a wall-breaker. In that case, more special attack could be used to 2HKO Cressy, Celebi, Dusk, and guarentee that KO on Hippo. On my original trials of this set months ago, I found Close Combat to allow him to sweep quite easily because of the bloated base power. Why not take full advantage of it? Celebi and Cressy are kind of the least of Lucario's concerns, especially because he's frequently paired with Tyranitar or some other sand-strategy.

 

[Serv]

This can be fixed with the use of Agility which allows Lucario to outrun even maximum speed Deoxys-S and all neutral natured base 120 Speed Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf.

I personally don't think dilemma is the right word to use.

although those that do invest in special defense are 3HKOd with the help of Stealth Rock.

Sounds better...

Shadow Ball is there to hit everything that Aura Sphere can't, most notably Ghost-types, and this Lucario appreciates the 20% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense which turns many expected 3HKOs to 2HKOs.

I chose "3HKOs to 2HKOs" over "2HKOs into OHKOs" because I believe the use of Shadow ball itself should be counted not only the attacks used after the drop.

Dark Pulse is an option over Shadow Ball for the 20% chance of flinching the opponent, although the loss of coverage is marginal.

No need for "however".

It should be noted that while this set can function well as a late game cleaner it particularly shines when it is passed a Nasty Plot or two which enables it to take out most of its potential counters.

Small nitpick...

Thanks have a nice day ^^.

~edit:
@Foreys: Rofl that's what I said.

 

[cim]

The loss of coverage is actually pretty important if you run Dark Pulse here. If you do, Heracross switches in completely for free and could Swords Dnace on the switch if he wanted. I'd prefer Shadow Ball.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Except HP Ice hits Heracross for only 10 less base points...

You lose nothing in OU except 10 base power on the 22nd most used Pokemon. Not sure I'd call that very important :/

 

[Kier]

Shadow Ball is present to hit everything that Aura Sphere can't, most notably Ghost-types, and this Lucario appreciates the 20% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense which turns many expected 2HKOs into OHKOs.

This doesn't make any sense. If Lucario is OHKOing something it will OHKO it regardless of the Special Defense drop, which happens after the attack is used. No use dropping the Special Defense of an already KOed opponent!

"Turns many expected 3HKOs into 2HKOs" makes more sense.

 

[Caelum]

I took most of the people's suggestions that posted and I agree with Jabba that the loss of coverage when using Dark Pulse is pretty minimal. Also, I think I fixed all the grammatical errors but knowing me it's doubtful so please check if over for me guys.

The opinion seems somewhat mixed based on whether it should be mixed or purely special and I tested both options over the course of two days and I really found Aura Sphere to be more useful, for as least just as useful such that splitting the EVs isn't worth it, than Close Combat with the exception of a few cases. So, I just kept Aura Sphere as the primarily option and mentioned Close Combat and Junior's EV spread. If I get a lot of backlash from this , so far it seems mixed so I'm going with my preference on this , but I'm completely willing to go the other way if a lot of you strongly insist (please only comment on this aspect if you've used both sets since if you've only used one it's hard to get a good perspective).

Edit: On Junior's spread, is Mild or Rash generally better.

 

[Colonel M]

I'd almost prefer Close Combat if only to prevent Blissey from walling the hell out of you all day. The main use I'd find for Aura Sphere is probably for... Skarmory. It can be simply solved by just making two sets instead. One being the "Special" version (the one you have) and the "Mixed" version and name the differences between the sets. Obviously the first set has the advantage of coming in easier thanks to not having his defenses cut and also fairs better against Skarmory. The mixed set's primary goal is to destroy Blissey instead and to use the higher Base Power. I think that on the Mixed set Stone Edge should be mentioned over Hidden Power Ice to eliminate Gyarados. Actually there's almost three ways to do this set: Special, Physical, and Mixed.

I suggest for it to look like this, if possible:

- Agility
- Close Combat / Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball / Crunch
- Hidden Power Ice / Stone Edge

For EVs and Nature just simply mention the Mixed sweepers and then put the EVs and Nature for the other sets in the Set Comments (the Physical set EVs are simply 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe). This however is just my opinion.

(P.S. I know the set looks sloppy now; however, I think this is the best way for the set to look without adding 2 or 3 sets.