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DP Speed Tiers: [on-site]

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Serv, Sep 27, 2008.

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  1. Serv

    Serv
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    Original:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23432

    Tier 0 (CS Users, and >130 base speed)
    • 538 - CS 252 Aerodactyl (130)
    • 523 - CS 252 Weavile (125)
    • 478 - CS 252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    • 475 - Motor Drive +nature/252 Electivire (95)
    • 460 - +nature/252 Ninjask (160)
    • 459 - CS +nature/252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ, Zangoose (90)
    • 458 - Quick Feet +nature/252 Ursaring (55)
    • 454 - CS 252 Garchomp (102)
    • 448 - CS 252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin, Charizard, Salac Berry BellyZard (100)
    • 442 - CS +nature/252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    • 433 - Motor Drive 252 Electivire (95)
    • 430 - Rock Polish from 215 speed (Rock Polish Rampardos)
    • 430 - CS +nature/252 Gyarados (81) lol
    • 426 - CS +nature/252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    • 419 - 252 Ninjask (160)
    • 418 - CS 252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ, Zangoose, Salac Berry Lucario, Quick Feet 252 Ursaring (90)
    • 417 - CS +nature/252 Heatran (77)
    • 405 - One DD from 270 speed (outspeeds CS Heracross)
    • 404 - Two DDs from 202 speed (or Rock Polish/Agility) (outspeeds CS Heracross), AgiliGross, Swift Swim Ludicolo
    • 403 - CS 252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    Tier 1 (110 to 130 base speed)
    • 396 - One DD from 264 speed (outspeeds all base 130s)
    • 396 - Two DDs from 198 speed (outspeeds all base 130s)
    • 394 - +nature/252 Jolteon, Crobat, Aerodactyl (130)
    • 383 - +nature/252 Swellow, Weavile (125)
    • 379 - CS 252 Heatran (77)
    • 372 - +nature/252 Dugtrio, Alakazam, Sceptile (120)
    • 366 - One DD from 244 speed (outspeeds all base 115s and 252-speed base 130s)
    • 361 - +nature/252 Raikou, Azelf, Ambipom, Starmie (115)
    • 359 - 252 Jolteon, Crobat, Aerodactyl (130)
    • 350 - +nature/252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    Tier 2 (90 to <110 base speed)
    • 349 - 252 Swellow, Weavile (125)
    • 346 - +nature/252 Infernape (108 )
    • 339 - +nature/252 Mismagius (105)
    • 339 - 252 Alakazam, Dugtrio, Sceptile (120)
    • 334 - One DD from 223 speed (outspeeds all base 100s, Garchomp, and 252-speed base 115s), BulkyGyara
    • 333 - +nature/252 Garchomp (102)
    • 329 - 252 Raikou, Ambipom, Azelf, Starmie (115)
    • 328 - +nature/252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Regigigas, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin (100)
    • 319 - 252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    • 317 - +nature/252 Houndoom, Jynx, Drapion, Yanmega, Leafeon, Gliscor, Uxie, Electivire (95)
    • 315 - 252 Infernape (108 )
    • 309 - 252 Mismagius (105)
    • 306 - +nature/252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)
    Tier 3 (70 to <90 base speed)
    • 303 - 252 Garchomp (102)
    • 299 - 252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Regigigas, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin (100)
    • 295 - +nature/252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    • 289 - 252 Houndoom, Jynx, Drapion, Yanmega, Leafeon, Gliscor, Uxie, Electivire (95)
    • 287 - +nature/252 Gyarados (81)
    • 284 - +nature/252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    • 279 - 252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)
    • 278 - +nature/252 Heatran (77)
    • 273 - +nature/252 Smeargle (75)
    • 270 - One DD hits 405 (outspeeds CS 252 Heracross (85))
    • 269 - 252 Heracross, Suicune, Toxicroak, Ledian (85)
    • 265 - +nature/252 Honchkrow (71)
    • 264 - One DD hits 396 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 130s)
    • 262 - +nature/252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)
    • 261 - 252 Gyarados (81)
    • 259 - 252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    Tier 4 (<80 base speed)
    • 253 - 252 Heatran (77)
    • 246 - no-speed Mismagius (105)
    • 244 - One DD hits 366 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 115s, and 252 base 130s)
    • 243 - +nature/252 Tyranitar (61)
    • 241 - 252 Honchkrow (71)
    • 239 - 252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)
    • 236 - +nature/252 Rampardos (58 )
    • 236 - no-speed Zapdos, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, Shaymin, Miltank (100)
    • 226 - no-speed Gliscor, Leafeon, Uxie (95)
    • 223 - One DD hits 334 (outspeeds all base 100s, Garchomp, and 252-speed base 115s), BulkyGyara
    • 221 - 252 Tyranitar (61)
    • 216 - no-speed Moltres, Lucario (90)
    • 215 - 252 Rampardos (58 )
    • 207 - +nature/252 Marowak (45)
    • 206 - no-speed Heracross, Suicune (85)
    • 202 - Two DDs (or one Rock Polish/Agility) hits 404 speed (outspeeds CS Heracross)
    • 198 - no-speed Gyarados, Milotic (81)
    • 198 - Two DDs (or one Rock Polish/Agility) hits 396 speed (outspeeds +nature/252 base 130s)
    • 196 - no-speed Mamoswine, Gardevoir, Dragonite (80)
    • 190 - no-speed Heatran (77)
    • 189 - 252 Marowak (45)
    • 176 - no-speed Skarmory, Breloom, Metagross, Cloyster, Ludicolo (70)
    • 166 - no-speed Vaporeon, Umbreon, Scizor (65)
    • 158 - no-speed Tyranitar (61)
    • 156 - no-speed Swampert, Porygon2, Magnezone, Weezing (60)
    • 152 - no-speed Rampardos (58 )
    • 146 - no-speed Blissey (55)
    • 140 - -nature/31IV Mixpert, Weezing, Magnezone(60)
    • 136 - no-speed Tangrowth, Lickilicky, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Donphan (50)
    • 126 - no-speed Dusknoir, Marowak (45)
    • 116 - no-speed Rhyperior (40)
    • 106 - no-speed Spiritomb (35)
    • 102 - no-speed Bronzong (33)
    • 98 - no-speed Bidoof (31)
    • 96 - no-speed Snorlax, Slowbro, Steelix (30)
    • 85 - -nature/0IV Trick Room Dusknoir
    • 63 - -nature/0IV Trick Room Bronzong
    Key:
    +nature/252: A pokemon with a beneficial speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
    252: A pokemon with a neutral speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
    CS: A pokemon holding a Choice Scarf.
    One DD: A pokemon before or after one speed boost.
    Two DDs: A pokemon before or after two speed boosts. Remember two speed boosts is equal to one use of Rock Polish/Agility.
    (130): A pokemon with 130 base speed.
    no-speed: The pokemon does not have a beneficial speed nature, or any speed EVs.
    -nature/31IV: The pokemon has a nature that reduces its speed, but has 31 IVs in speed.
    -nature/0IV: The pokemon has a nature that reduces its speed, and also has 0 IVs in speed.


    How to use this list: Find the poke you’re building, and see how high on the list it can hit (searching on the page helps). Then, see how far you can go down the list without losing to someone you want to outspeed.

    For example: Jolly (+Speed, -Sp.Atk) Garchomp with 252 EVs can hit 333 speed. But the next highest group is at 329 speed (neutral-nature Azelf/Starmie). So Jolly Garchomp can safely run 330 speed (240 EVs) and never lose any extra matchups.

    Serebii’s D/P Stat Calculator lets you figure out how many EVs you’ll need to hit a certain speed. It’s also useful if you have a pokemon with a less than 31 IV in speed, or if your specific pokemon isn’t listed. However, keep in mind: if your pokemon has less than a 31 IV in speed, you will never be able to hit a +nature/252 speed listed for your poke!


    Dragon Dance: you can find a target speed you’d like to hit after one Dragon Dance, and then multiply that target speed by 2/3. Rounding up the result will give your desired starting speed.

    So if you wanted to hit 404 speed after one Dragon Dance (outspeed CS 252 Heracross), type this into your calculator:
    404 * 2 / 3
    to get 269.33 -> which is 270 speed.


    Rock Polish/Agility/Swift Swim: you can choose a target speed after one use (or in the rain), and then divide in half. Rounding up the result will give your desired starting speed.

    So if you wanted to hit 419 speed after one use (outspeed CS 252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ), half of that is 209.5 -> so you’d want 210 speed.
  2. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Yea, don't know if I should post this here specifically, but this guide is really outdated and has some mistakes.

    For example, it is missing some significant speed marks, like Timid 252 Speed Choice Scarf Gengar (525) and Timid 252 Speed Shaymin-S (388).

    It also has a few mistakes, like Quick Feet Ursaring being listed at 458. I thought Quick Feet was *1.5? That would make it 343, not 458.

    I recommend reposting this in Stark so it can be torn apart and built again as an updated version.
  3. twash

    twash
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    Agreed that it is outdated.

    IIRC Quick Feet is in fact *2, which would make it correct.
  4. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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  5. Serv

    Serv
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    You guys were overexcited I was already editing in those things you've mentioned...

    My Edit: (Special thanks to darkie+)
    Tier 0 (CS Users, and >130 base speed)
    • 538 - +1 252 Aerodactyl (130)
    • 529 - +1 252 Shaymin-S (127)
    • 525 - +1 +nature/252 Gengar (110)
    • 523 - +1 252 Weavile (125)
    • 508 - +1 252 Dugtrio (120)
    • 504 - +nature/252 Deoxys-S (180)
    • 492 - +1 +nature/252 Flygon, Salamence, Shaymin, Slaking (100)
    • 478 -+1 252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    • 475 - +1 +nature/252 Electivire (95)
    • 460 - +nature/252 Ninjask (160)
    • 459 -+1 +nature/252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ, Zangoose (90)
    • 459 - 252 Deoxys-S (180)
    • 448 -+1 252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin, Charizard (100)
    • 442 -+1 +nature/252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    • 433 - +1 252 Electivire (95)
    • 430 - +2 from 215 speed (outspeeds up to +1 base 80s)
    • 430 -+1 +nature/252 Gyarados (81)
    • 426 -+1 +nature/252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    • 419 - 252 Ninjask (160)
    • 418 - +1 252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ, Zangoose (90)
    • 417 - +1 +nature/252 Heatran (77)
    • 417 -+nature/252 Electrode (140)
    • 405 - +1 from 270 speed (outspeeds CS Heracross)
    • 404 - +2 from 202 speed (or Rock Polish/Agility)(outspeeds CS Heracross)
    • 403 -+1 252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    Tier 1 (110 to 130 base speed)
    • 396 - +1 from 264 speed (outspeeds all base 130s)
    • 396 - +2 from 198 speed (outspeeds all base 130s)
    • 396 - no-speed Deoxys-S (180)
    • 394 - +nature/252 Jolteon, Crobat, Aerodactyl (130)
    • 393 - +1 +nature/252 Breloom, Metagross (70)
    • 388 - +nature/252 Shaymin-S (127)
    • 383 - +nature/252 Swellow, Weavile (125)
    • 379 -+1 252 Heatran (77), 252 Electrode (140)
    • 372 - +nature/252 Dugtrio, Alakazam, Sceptile (120)
    • 366 - +1 from 244 speed (outspeeds all base 115s and 252-speed base 130s)
    • 361 - +nature/252 Raikou, Azelf, Ambipom, Starmie (115)
    • 360 - CS +nature/252 Abomasnow (60)
    • 359 - 252 Jolteon, Crobat, Aerodactyl (130)
    • 358 - +1 252 Breloom, Metagross (70)
    • 356 - no-speed Ninjask (160)
    • 355 - +nature/252 Purugly (112)
    • 353 - 252 Shaymin-S (127)
    • 350 - +nature/252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    Tier 2 (90 to <110 base speed)
    • 349 - 252 Swellow, Weavile (125)
    • 346 - +nature/252 Infernape (108 )
    • 343 - +1 +nature/252 Machamp, Ursaring (55)
    • 339 - +nature/252 Mismagius (105)
    • 339 - 252 Alakazam, Dugtrio, Sceptile (120)
    • 334 - +1 from 223 speed (outspeeds all base 100s, Garchomp, and 252-speed base 115s)
    • 329 - 252 Raikou, Ambipom, Azelf, Starmie (115)
    • 328 - +nature/252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Regigigas, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin (100)
    • 323 - 252 Purugly (112)
    • 319 - 252 Gengar, Tauros, Espeon (110)
    • 317 - +nature/252 Houndoom, Jynx, Drapion, Yanmega, Leafeon, Gliscor, Uxie, Electivire (95)
    • 315 - 252 Infernape (108 )
    • 309 - 252 Mismagius (105)
    • 306 - +nature/252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)
    Tier 3 (70 to <90 base speed)
    • 299 - 252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Regigigas, Staraptor, Manaphy, Shaymin (100)
    • 298 -+nature/252Rotom-f/c/h/s/w (86)
    • 295 - +nature/252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
    • 289 - 252 Houndoom, Jynx, Drapion, Yanmega, Leafeon, Gliscor, Uxie, Electivire (95)
    • 287 - +nature/252 Gyarados (81)
    • 284 - +nature/252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    • 279 - 252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)
    • 278 - +nature/252 Heatran (77)
    • 273 - +nature/252 Smeargle (75)
    • 271 - 252 Rotom-f/c/h/s/w (86)
    • 270 - +1 hits 405 (outspeeds CS 252 Heracross (85))
    • 269 - 252 Heracross, Suicune, Toxicroak, Ledian (85)
    • 265 - +nature/252 Honchkrow (71)
    • 264 - +1 hits 396 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 130s)
    • 262 - +nature/252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)
    • 261 - 252 Gyarados (81)
    • 259 - 252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit, Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
    Tier 4 (<80 base speed)
    • 253 - 252 Heatran (77)
    • 246 - no-speed Mismagius (105)
    • 244 - +1 hits 366 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 115s, and 252 base 130s)
    • 243 - +nature/252 Tyranitar (61) +1 hits 364 (outspeeds +nature/252 base 115s)
    • 241 - 252 Honchkrow (71)
    • 239 - 252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)
    • 236 - +nature/252 Rampardos (58 )
    • 236 - no-speed Zapdos, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, Shaymin, Miltank (100)
    • 229 - 252 Scizor (65)
    • 226 - no-speed Gliscor, Leafeon, Uxie (95)
    • 223 - +1 hits 334 (outspeeds all base 100s, Garchomp, and 252-speed base 115s)
    • 221 - 252 Tyranitar (61)
    • 216 - no-speed Moltres, Lucario (90)
    • 215 - 252 Rampardos (58) +2 (or one Rock Polish/Agility) hits 430 speed (outspeeds up to +1 base 80s)
    • 208 - no-speed Rotom-f/c/h/s/w (86)
    • 207 - +nature/252 Marowak (45)
    • 206 - no-speed Heracross, Suicune (85)
    • 202 - +2 (or one Rock Polish/Agility) hits 404 speed (outspeeds CS Heracross)
    • 198 - no-speed Gyarados, Milotic (81)
    • 198 - +2 (or one Rock Polish/Agility) hits 396 speed (outspeeds +nature/252 base 130s)
    • 196 - no-speed Mamoswine, Gardevoir, Dragonite (80)
    • 190 - no-speed Heatran (77)
    • 189 - 252 Marowak (45)
    • 176 - no-speed Skarmory, Breloom, Metagross, Cloyster, Ludicolo (70)
    • 166 - no-speed Vaporeon, Umbreon, Scizor (65)
    • 158 - no-speed Tyranitar (61)
    • 156 - no-speed Swampert, Porygon2, Magnezone, Weezing (60)
    • 152 - no-speed Rampardos (58)
    • 146 - no-speed Blissey, Machamp (55)
    • 142 --nature/31IVTyranitar (61)
    • 140 - -nature/31IV Swampert, Weezing, Magnezone (60)
    • 136 - no-speed Tangrowth, Lickilicky, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Donphan (50)
    • 130 - no-speed Hippowdon (47)
    • 126 - no-speed Dusknoir, Marowak (45)
    • 116 - no-speed Rhyperior, Forretress (40)
    • 106 - no-speed Spiritomb (35)
    • 140 - -nature/31IV Forretress (40)
    • 102 - no-speed Bronzong (33)
    • 96 - no-speed Snorlax, Slowbro, Steelix (30)
    • 85 - -nature/0IV Dusknoir (45)
    • 63 - -nature/0IV Bronzong (33)
    Key:
    +nature/252: A pokemon with a beneficial speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
    252: A pokemon with a neutral speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
    +1: A pokemon before or after one speed boost.
    +2: A pokemon before or after two speed boosts. Remember two speed boosts is equal to one use of Rock Polish/Agility.
    (130): A pokemon with 130 base speed.
    no-speed: The pokemon does not have a beneficial speed nature, or any speed EVs.
    -nature/31IV: The pokemon has a nature that reduces its speed, but has 31 IVs in speed.
    -nature/0IV: The pokemon has a nature that reduces its speed, and also has 0 IVs in speed.


    How to use this list: Find the Pokemon you’re building, and see how high on the list it can hit (searching on the page helps). Then, see how far you can go down the list without losing to someone you want to outspeed.

    For example: Jolly (+Speed, -Sp.Atk) Garchomp with 252 EVs can hit 333 speed. But the next highest group is at 329 speed (neutral-nature Azelf/Starmie). So Jolly Garchomp can safely run 330 speed (240 EVs) and never lose any extra matchups. Keep in mind: if your pokemon has less than a 31 IV in speed, you will never be able to hit a +nature/252 speed listed for your poke!


    Dragon Dance: you can find a target speed you’d like to hit after one Dragon Dance, and then multiply that target speed by 2/3. Rounding up the result will give your desired starting speed.

    So if you wanted to hit 404 speed after one Dragon Dance (outspeed CS 252 Heracross), type this into your calculator:
    404 * 2 / 3
    to get 269.33 -> which is 270 speed.


    Rock Polish/Agility/Swift Swim: you can choose a target speed after one use (or in the rain), and then divide in half. Rounding up the result will give your desired starting speed.

    So if you wanted to hit 419 speed after one use (outspeed CS 252 Moltres, Lucario, PorygonZ), half of that is 209.5 -> so you’d want 210 speed.

    Thanks have a nice day ^^.
  6. Goodbar

    Goodbar

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    It was believed to be *2 for a very long time, but smogon says *1.5...

    I tried revising this some time ago, I never posted it though so instead of cluttering up this thread, I just editted an old post deep in the platinum mark two thread for you to look at and judge (wobbuffet is still there and skymin isn't): http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1473703&postcount=1300
  7. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    well I mean I gave you a whole 12 minutes!
  8. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    229 - 252 Scizor (65)

    A lot of people use Adamant Max Scizor. Also, are specific spreads going to be mentioned?
  9. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Alright, well even with these edits I see a few issues. For example, why would you put +1 for 244 Speed Pokemon, and not +1 for the much more common threat of 243 Speed, Jolly 252 Speed Tyranitar?

    Also +1 for 328 Speed (492) is left out (DD Salamence).

    Not to mention just in case Garchomp ever comes back, that it's +1 333 Speed need to be taken into account (499).
  10. Goodbar

    Goodbar

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    Typo aldaron >.<

    EDIT: Should there be something like a suspects section, for pokemon that are/have been/will be suspects? Unless this list would be editted every time a tier change happens
  11. twash

    twash
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    393 - +1 +nature/252 Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (70)

    Deserves a mention imo, because of the amount of Trick Metagross going around. I don't know whether you would take out Skarmory / Breloom, so I just left it in.

    Or you may want to do neutral nature..
  12. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    Where's electrode on the list (416 positive nature, 379 neutral nature)
  13. Serv

    Serv
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    Added everything mentioned so far. Thanks everyone ^^.
  14. tennisace

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    Why do you have +1 +Nature/252 Machamp and Ursaring listed separatly?

    I'll try to find some more things.
  15. newbioform

    newbioform

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    If so, I guess I can can help putting it up since I made one myself two month ago that has all the smogon spreads on it (however unupdated they may be).

    Also, why is Garchomp still on the list?
  16. Serv

    Serv
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    I think this article is good enough for HTMLization no?

    I say no to the specific spreads as I doubt people follow them that devotedly. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. Thanks have a nice day ^^.

    ~edit:
    @Blue Kirby: No worries I'll get to it as soon as I can thanks for the offer though :D.
  17. Blue Kirby

    Blue Kirby Never back down.
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    2,841
    Looks good to me, I'm giving this the nod.

    Do you want to HTMLize Servant or would you prefer it done by myself or somebody else?
  18. Serv

    Serv
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    270
    HTMLizing complete if there's anything significant more to add please let me know (I am still against adding specific spreads for reasons already stated on my previous post).

    Thanks have a nice day ^^.

    *closing*
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