DP Suicune

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#26
My opinion on this would be to make two separate sets. Substitute impacts it large enough to warrant a change in the EV Spread, so I'm all for splitting them up, and having both sets added.
 
#27
That seems like a fair and simple solution. I think both sets could warrent mention.

Guys this isn't trying to fight for the top spot or "who is better". We aren't trying to outdo each other here on smogon we are trying to make the community better as a whole.

There is no need to be hostile here. We should try and think of the best solution instead of fighting (and in this case it may be moi who has the best solution).
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
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#28
I never was fighting for the top spot or anything like that. If you couldn't tell, I really don't care what people think of me. I was just fighting for a better set. Because, hey, I don't like bad sets. Calm Mind Sweeping Suicune had so much potential, but I didn't want that pissed away with a Life Orb set that could be done better by many other Pokémon, Deoxys-S being the best example I can think of.

Wayff: You do realize that you can just Calm Mind up on that Starmie or Vaporeon until the Electric move doesn't hurt much?

Also, Blissey is WAY more common than Starmie, and instead of maybe beating Starmie and Vaporeon if you'd get lucky I think most everybody here (in fact, all of the posters since me excluding you) would prefer to set up on and beat Blissey.
 
#30
after fighting against this, I found the best way to deal with it was to phaze it away. that being said, I'm not sure how well substitute would work. In theory, it sounds good to dodge status, but the only one sending status at you that's slow enough for you to sub against is blissey. then again, that's the only one who's willing to send status at you, other than maybe a roosting zapdos. so if you're paranoid of blissey, then I guess sub would work, but an option for more coverage would be hp electric. Like most of the other people, I"m in favor of using two sets, one with sub, one without. but one option, though maybe suicune might not be defensive enough to do it, is roar, to help stop the phazers that are likely to come in on it. he has the speed to "outphaze" them, so why not? When I fought this, if it had roar, it would have been sure to sweep me.

edit: I used whirlwind snorax, but opposing suicune could roar you away if you didn't do it first as well. also, while the moves would be the same as standard cune, and the only different thing would be the evs', it would play completely differently, being a lot faster and slightly less bulky.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
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#31
Sweeper CM Suicune with Roar would be... standard Suicune. So, yeah.

There actually aren't that many psuedo hazers that can take on Suicune. Roar Empoleon is all I can think of. Yawn Vaporeon is blocked by Substitute, Blissey doesn't pack a phazing move, and Skarm hates Surf.

I wouldn't mind having 2 sets listed, I just think Life Orb is a terrible option.
 
#33
Just posting to say that.... Crocune beats all the pokemon both the Sub and Life Orbed sets are arguing about.

The Life Orb Set is fine. It works well, I've seen it work well. There is nothing wrong with it.

The SubCM Set will also work because it works on every 404 HP Subber anyway, so whats different about suicune? Always a good option

Neither of the two are superior to each other. They are both completely different sets if you ask me. A subbing Cune needs its own peer edit.

Crocune is still the best IMO, simply because T-spikes and Sandstorm don't completely neuter it. And Crocune still sets up on Blissey, and beats Starmie, and will pressure stall Vaporeon and come out on top as well.
 

cim

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#34
You can "think" it's a bad option as long as you want, because I've used LO really well. I'm sure Taylor would agree with me.
The reason I don't think that it is a good option is that once you use Life Orb, all durability goes out the window and suddenly Suicune REALLY doesn't like taking damage. If you want to make a +SAtk / Life Orb sweeper, there are better Pokémon for the job. Deoxys-S, Porygon-Z, Jynx... all of these outclass Suicune in terms of raw sweeping potential. That's why I don't like the set. Obviously people like you and RaikouLover have used it with success, but I'm just throwing in my two cents. Again...

I'm not trying to "make you lose". This has nothing to do with you. I'm not trying to "fight" either. I'm discussing a Pokémon. Please, don't take it personally.

The main reason I ended up just writing something up is because you initially dismissed my post as horrible. Several people in here have claimed or implied that it was not horrible. I thought that the consensus said that my set was more viable, but you hadn't changed it, so I put something up.
 
#35
You're already made your point. I know Substitute works, but you're not listening to me. If we already used it well, how do you know it dosen't work well? Besides, Suicune has better STAB than those Pokemon.
 

cim

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#36
I'm listening to you. You're not listening to me. I'm saying "I don't think Life Orb is a good option because of XYZ and Substitute is a fantastic option as evidenced by XYZ". Several others posted confirming that they agreed with my statement.

"If we already used it well, how do you know it doesn't work well?" That statement is kind of confusing. Are you asking me why I think it doesn't work well despite your use of it? If you'd like that answer, I'd suggest reading any of my posts that aren't this one.

Suicune's STAB is his only advantage though. Porygon-Z has better Speed and 1.5x the Special Attack and a better boostnig move for an "offensive sweeper", plus an ability that makes his STAB 2x. Jynx actually has better STAB (Ice Beam) and a sleeping move. What I've been saying in 3 posts now is that once you use Life Orb and throw Suicune's best asset (bulkiness) out the window, you'll see it's quickly outclassed.
 
#37
Please take me out of this equation all together. I merely stated that I had recently used Suicune (with life Orb) to some degree of success (to Wayff personally), but I did not use Suicune for purposes of this analysis at all.
 

Bologo

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#39
Uhh Wayff, why are you being such a jerk? No offense, but I agree with CiM completely. You're right, not many people were saying that Life Orb is bad, just that a lot of people were saying that your set is bad. When you post a peer edit, expect people to post alternate spreads and such, and you're supposed to consider them. Saying that someone else's post is "horrible" is just moronic since CiM's post was a great post, and I seriously didn't expect that kind of crap from someone like you. Honestly, if you want to be a contributor to this site, you're going to have to learn to take criticism, or just drop the idea of contributing completely.

I don't see why you're still so adamantly defending your position if we could just have two sets. Is there a problem with having two sets or something? There's not even a Substitute set in the analysis, and it's a great set, so stop trying to shoot it down. Is it that hard to accept CiM's write-up for that set?

Life Orb really isn't that great of an option on Suicune. Why put all of that HP in the thing if you're just going to be losing 10% of it each turn you attack? CiM is also right about Suicune's bulkiness. Why use Life Orb on something that actually cares about those defenses, especially when it doesn't have a recovery move? That's like using a Life Orb Bronzong... Usually when you're using CM on something as bulky as Suicune, it's supposed to be able to take hits with ease since CM is raising one of its defenses as well, however, Life Orb counteracts this. It makes it inferior to things that don't actually care about their defenses and need Life Orb for that extra punch. Suicune can easily set up 2 CMs and be even more powerful without losing 10% of its health each turn. Really, is using something like Wise Glasses too hard or something? I mean, it's only 20% less powerful, but you also don't lose 10% of your health each time you attack.

CiM's set is much better, and even though he's not trying to get the "top spot", he obviously has, because he's been keeping his cool in this thread while you've been getting all mad about it.

Honestly, Wayff, mellow down, or just let someone else handle this peer edit.
 
#41
Okay, after running into the Life Orb set a few times, there are a few thinks I'd like to say. I'm actually going to say that Hydro Pump has a lot more potential if only for the initial surprise factor. My initial switch in to it was Magnezone, attempting to deal a far amount of damage to it, and then revenge kill it. This plan was easily thwarted, as I was easily destroyed. After running the calculations, it was guaranteed due to the Spikes damage I had taken.

But the one thing I would do is actually change it itself into a pure attacking set if still use Life Orb. I have to agree on the fact that I tested it myself, however little amount I did, that rarely I used Calm Mind. There isn't a chance to set it up, factoring in the Life Orb Recoil, residual damage, and just simple attacks doing a lot more then they usually did. If so, I'd go Hydro Pump/Surf/Hp Electric/Ice Beam. I found that the damage potential with Hydro Pump is great on the initial switch in, and Surf to be a safe option when needed.

That's my opinion after playing around with it.

note - gasp post 200
 
#45
Ummmm bumping to say 252 Speed 252 Special Attack Timid / Modest Life Orb Suicune with Calm Mind, Hydro Pump / Surf, Ice Beam and HP Electric is an absolute monster and that someone pretty please should sort out whatever was going on here.

I really have no idea what is going on in this thread so um....if no action is taken soon I am going to just post the all out sweeper Suicune myself as a peer edit and mention how it (with Modest) beats Zapdos / Celebi after Stealth Rock and how it is like the perfect compliment to Swords Dance Lucario etc. etc. etc.

Soooo, anyone?
 

Caelum

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#46
Ummmm bumping to say 252 Speed 252 Special Attack Timid / Modest Life Orb Suicune with Calm Mind, Hydro Pump / Surf, Ice Beam and HP Electric is an absolute monster and that someone pretty please should sort out whatever was going on here.

I really have no idea what is going on in this thread so um....if no action is taken soon I am going to just post the all out sweeper Suicune myself as a peer edit and mention how it (with Modest) beats Zapdos / Celebi after Stealth Rock and how it is like the perfect compliment to Swords Dance Lucario etc. etc. etc.

Soooo, anyone?
I already had one written up b/c this thread died. I'll PM it to you later tonight if you want to look at it.
 
#47
Ummmm bumping to say 252 Speed 252 Special Attack Timid / Modest Life Orb Suicune with Calm Mind, Hydro Pump / Surf, Ice Beam and HP Electric is an absolute monster and that someone pretty please should sort out whatever was going on here.
This.

I've seen grrgrgrr GRIZZLY BEAR use this set to quite a bit of success and quite frankly I don't see anything wrong with the original set that was posted. I don't see much merit in the SubCM set but I also haven't seen it being used. I just dont think there's much stock in using Suicune's defenses for Subs if you aren't going to go all-out and use RestTalk.
 
#48
I've seen irak use the original set and it does kick ass, but i've also used the subcm set and that too kicks ass! So I'm thinking they both probably deserve a spot in the analysis.
 

Caelum

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#49
This.

I've seen grrgrgrr GRIZZLY BEAR use this set to quite a bit of success and quite frankly I don't see anything wrong with the original set that was posted. I don't see much merit in the SubCM set but I also haven't seen it being used. I just dont think there's much stock in using Suicune's defenses for Subs if you aren't going to go all-out and use RestTalk.
RestTalk (I'm assuming you mean Rest/STalk/Surf/Calm Mind) functions differently than Sub-Cune. That extra move (Ice Beam) really makes quite a bit of difference and prevents Suicune from having Celebi (and Shaymin) just destroying it or CM Celebi using it as set-up fodder or even Gyarados setting it up as after a few CMs Ice Beam does hurt it a bit (I didn't do calcs I just remember from experiene :/ ). Rest-Talk also suffers from hoping you get Surf when a phazer comes in. I've used all 3 sets before, to be honest I haven't used the Offensive Life Orb Suicune on the Suspect ladder yet but I suspect it works well there, and each set has different merits.
 
#50
I know that they are obviously different, I just hate the idea of having something as bulky as Suicune putting itself on a timer like it does with Substitute. It just seems like a complete waste of Suicune's amazing stat distribution. I don't really think that the sub set looks any good on paper and there are better, more effective sets for it.
 
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