DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Fishin]

Hmm ... I'm not sure, Heracross is much sturdier with more balanced defences. With its 53 base defence and horrible hit points Hitmonlee really can't afford to take any kind of hard physical hit, therefore has to be careful what it switches in on.

Even with a measly 50 base hp, 110 sp def means he has durability on one side of the spectrum. Don't forget that he's immune to paralysis, too.

Altaria does a pretty decent job with its good defences, resistance to three of those attacks and recovery move (has to watch out for Stone Edge though). Then of course any of the ghosts can come in on predicted fighting moves and force it out with the threat of Wisp, Torkoal can easily take a Blaze kick and then Wisp it. Protect is also useful.

Both Torkoal and Altaria are going to be taking a lot from Stone Edge, though. They're by no means solid counters.

 

[Dragontamer]

Even with a measly 50 base hp, 110 sp def means he has durability on one side of the spectrum. Don't forget that he's immune to paralysis, too.

Paralysis wouldn't be on a Hitmonlee counter inherently :-p

Anyway, defense "on one side of the spectrum" is precisely what many glass canons have. Hitmonlee's Def and Sp. Def tiers are similar to Weavile, Jolteon and Espeon, except hitmonlee's Def is much lower than all of them.

 

[ODDish]

Even with a measly 50 base hp, 110 sp def means he has durability on one side of the spectrum. Don't forget that he's immune to paralysis, too.

*shrugs* That's where knowing your pokemon comes in.

Both Torkoal and Altaria are going to be taking a lot from Stone Edge, though. They're by no means solid counters.

Er ... didn't I say that Altaria can't switch in on Stone Edge? Anyway as Teekay said the Nido's - Queen in particular - do a decent job, resisting fighting and rock with the possibility of poisoning it through poison point, and bulky Sandlash also performs admirably.

Because its primarily a CBer and locked into a move, it has to switch so spikes damage soon adds up too.

 

[Lee]

@ Teekay, yes, good call. I overlooked them. In that case, I'd expect the standard to become EQ over Mach Punch.

Choice Band Earthquake vs Max/Max Impish Nidoqueen: 64-75%

@ Shiny Oddish: Fair argument, I can see the flip side. I'm not totally convinced he is too powerful myself, I just wanted to hear other opinions.

Anyway, a few calculations:

Choice Band Close Combat vs standard DD Altaria (72HP evs): 49-58%
Choice Band Stone Edge vs defensive Altaria (244 HP/212 Def): 78-91%

Choice Band Close Combat vs Max/Max Relaxed Torkoal: 46-54%
Choice Band Stone Edge vs Max/Max Relaxed Torkoal: 51-61%

Obviously, they are choice banded attacks, and the opponent would have to predict the switch. They may not the first time, and you may end up blocking Blaze Kick with Torkoal. However, once the opponent knows Torkoal is your Hitmonlee "counter," they'll be more wary and use a lot more of Stone Edge/CC (which can potentially 2HKO).

And as Fishin said, 110 Sp Def, means he can switch in at least once, maybe twice. Limber and SR resist help too.

Sandslash is easily 2HKO'd by Close Combat, which will be the most commonly used move (53-63%). Froslass and Driftblim are OHKO'd by Stone Edge. Banette takes up to 96%. Any savvy player will Stone Edge first turn anyway to scout for a Ghost.

 

[ODDish]

In that case, I'd expect the standard to become EQ over Mach Punch.

With the loss of MP, Hitmonlee becomes a little more vulnerable to fast normal type sleepers like Persian and Purugly. Obviously neither will want to switch in to take a hit but both can switch on the "revenge" forcing 'lee to either switch or run the risk of being Hypnotised.

Froslass and Driftblim are OHKO'd by Stone Edge.

Sableye is probably the best ghost for the job ... (oh and I do realise that this is not standard before everyone rushes to point this out)

CB Stone Edge vs Max HP/DEF Impish Sableye = 44 - 52 %
CB Blaze Kick vs MAX HP/DEF Impish Sableye = 37 - 42 %

Again there is an element of risk ... but there is a chance that he could 'Wisp 'lee before falling.

Alas the best defence against Hitmonlee would seem to be a strong fast offence... hmm *makes note to look into the viablity of an Adamant CB Extremespeed Linoone*.

Any savvy player will Stone Edge first turn anyway to scout for a Ghost.

Fortunately there doesn't seem to be too many of them on Shoddy ; ) (At least when it comes to UU).

 

[Forsety]

Like Pinsir, he looks to be a case of predict well or die. Unless of course, Claydol does come downstairs to UU. He's a pretty perfect counter.

You've more or less answered your own question. You're right though that it does pose a very powerful physical threat but its also extremely prone to being revenge killed especially if its using Close Combat. Though I always found CBLee (Lee with a CB?) not really as useful in long term as BulkUpLee.

Just a question though, were those calculations done using Adamant or Jolly?

And Steelix has the most powerful Ground attack (all EVs, natures, and items being equal, though Max Attack Groos technically has more power in EQ, especially CB Groos) of any Steel type in the game, and the best Steel type attack outside of Metagross Meteor Mash.

Lets put this back into perspective. 85 base STAB vs 110 base STAB.

Thats a rather big difference and Iron Tail could hardly be considered best anything, maybe best at missing completely.

I'm not knocking Probopass though, that thing is seriously a fat POS.

Wouldn't accuse you of it, all I wanted to make clear is better that you be a special wall with one common 2x weakness than a physical wall with two common 4x weaknesses so it shouldn't come into this conversation at all.

Many Aggron run Max HP and a +Defense nature(with no EVs), that makes it a defacto physical wall

Against what? Rock/Fighting? Rock/Ground? Ice/Ground, Ghost/Fighting, Water/Ground? It'd take a very brave person to dream of running a full defensive Aggron against potential threats like those with 4x weakneses. If I saw an Aggron switching in on any physical attacker I had I'd probably be like "FREE KO!"

What about Garchomp and Rhyperior being thought so owerpowered they might overcentralize the metagame? What about not being able to predict the Uber status of Manaphy?

But Garchomp does overcentralize the metagame.
Manaphy's uber status was long predicted but everyone kept ignoring it.

Or maybe it's just that because everyone's on here reading the theory mon, no one ever goes out of their way and discovers something really great. :/

Fact Pokemon players are extremely conservative, I'd be surprised if most knew half of the Pokemon that existed let alone what they have to offer.

 

[ODDish]

Just a question though, were those calculations done using Adamant or Jolly?

With a Choice Band and a Jolly nature (note: 508 Att 300 speed),

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fact Pokemon players are extremely conservative, I'd be surprised if most knew half of the Pokemon that existed let alone what they have to offer.

That's true, I can't count the number of teams I've beaten standard teams with UU simply because my opponent has no idea what they are facing.

 

[Deck Knight]

Lets put this back into perspective. 85 base STAB vs 110 base STAB.

I wasn't saying Steelix's EQ was more powerful than Aggron's Stone Edge, just more useful and more reliable.

Thats a rather big difference and Iron Tail could hardly be considered best anything, maybe best at missing completely.

I was talking about Gyro Ball, which given Steelix's crap speed, can easily reach the power of Iron Head and even move up to Close Combat power against things like Pinsir and Froslass.

I really need to save the formula for GB somewhere. IIRC:

Power = Opponents Speed * 25/Your Speed

Steelix goes down to 58, so:

Power = Opponent's Speed * 25/58

Power = Opponent's Speed * 0.43.

So if we wanted 150 power:

Opponent's Speed = (Max Speed Neutral nature/Positive nature)[Floor of speed]

150 = 349 (Base 130/110)
140 = 326 (Base 115/100)
120 = 279 (Base 90/80)
110 = 256 (Base 80/70) [110]
100(IT) = 233 (Base 70/60) [100]
90 = 210 (Base 60/50) [90]
80(IH) = 187 (Base 45/40) [76]

So, while you'll only see 150 power on Froslass, Anything in the Jolly Pinsir range gets smacks for 120 power, and +Speed Base 100s get smacked with Overheat level power. I included the floors of pokemon who have a neutral speed nature. Gyro Ball will always have at least that much BP on those pokemon. (Incidentely, this is why Gengar is no longer a good switchin on Steelix, or at least not my EQ/GB/SR/Roar one.)

So I stand by my statement. Steelix has the most powerful Steel attack after Metagross.

I submit the lower numbers aren't relevant because slower pokemon won't max speed, and since most of the slower ones in UU are weak to Earthquake, it hardly matters.

Against what? Rock/Fighting? Rock/Ground? Ice/Ground, Ghost/Fighting, Water/Ground? It'd take a very brave person to dream of running a full defensive Aggron against potential threats like those with 4x weakneses. If I saw an Aggron switching in on any physical attacker I had I'd probably be like "FREE KO!"

No one would run Max Def on Aggron. Like Steelix, its defense is so high that a nature gives you something in the area of 36-40 defense points, so just leave it at that, Max HP, and distribute to offensive stats or special defense as you please. Aggrons primary defensive walling was against the CB Birds in Advance, who couldn't beat it unless they outpridicted with HP Ground or HP Fite. Now that that isn't an option, Aggron walls the hell out of Normal/Flying types in UU. Normal and Flying resists were important then, and Aggron filled that role quite well. Subbing Aggron also walls physical Ghosts like Sableye and Banette, although now that they all have WoW it needs Sub not to get burned, so to speak. For most of the physical bugs it also walls them, but in the case of Scyther it really has to tank by wiping it out with RS or SE after eating a Brick Break.

But Aggron isn't that great at taking special attacks either, not without a Sandstorm Boost, and Probopass does that better. Basically the purpose for most Aggron maxing HP was to switch in on Ice Beam or Psychic multiple times and then force the opponent out with a physical threat.

The thing is though, that Steelix can do the exact same thing, and has the added bonus of actually being able to take an EQ or CC (either) if it's forced to.

 

[Pneuma]

What about Garchomp and Rhyperior being thought so owerpowered they might overcentralize the metagame? What about not being able to predict the Uber status of Manaphy?

There are other cases where theorymon fails, so don't just harp on the successes.

Garchomp is in three threads right now, about 20% of teams, and has 5 different possible sets. Rhyperior is the only place I can think of that theorymon failed. People thought he would be indestructable until they remembered they had surf/grass knot.

Do you have any other examples?

 

[Slickee]

Garchomp is in three threads right now, about 20% of teams, and has 5 different possible sets. Rhyperior is the only place I can think of that theorymon failed. People thought he would be indestructable until they remembered they had surf/grass knot.

Do you have any other examples?

Rampardos and Choice Specs Zam say hay. XD

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Add Specs Starmie to that list too. People hyped it a lot before they realized the significance of Pursuit Weavile and its effect on the metagame. What keeps it in OU over Zam is its ability to do other important stuff such as countering DDdos and spinning.

I don't actually remember many people overhyping Rampardos to be honest. More the opposite really, with people saying its power was wasted on something so slow and fragile to get a hit in on anything before dying, so in that respect yeah, theorymon sort of failed but not by much.

 

[Forsety]

I'm pretty sure too those weren't overhyped and if they were it was mostly over at GFaqs. (Hey most actually believed Endeavor Rattata was cheap).

However I DO remember Cresselia being downplayed with general consensus was it could do nothing offensively and would be setup on. Though true seems most didn't anticipate a space duck being so hard to bring down and look at it now, practically on every team.

 

[Bourbon]

How did this go from UU or BL to "garchomp and cressy"

Weird...

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm pretty sure too those weren't overhyped and if they were it was mostly over at GFaqs. (Hey most actually believed Endeavor Rattata was cheap).

However I DO remember Cresselia being downplayed with general consensus was it could do nothing offensively and would be setup on. Though true seems most didn't anticipate a space duck being so hard to bring down and look at it now, practically on every team.

FEAR was a sound concept until people discovered that Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sandstream, Snow Warning, Priority Moves, Ghost Types, and Rock and Steel types with Leftovers existed.

 

[MrOneOhOne]

Then look at Primeape then, really. About the same moveset as Hitmonlee fight-rock-fire wise, but has 95 base speed, but much less Sp.Def. Hitmonlee also boasts 120base speed. However, I have used both and I can tell you that they are not indestructable, it's just a sad thing that most of the UU def. walls take alot of damage from Hitmon's attacks, or aren't resistant..(Gligar? Don't know about the status of that). Hitmon could be scarfed or banded, doesn't matter for a ghost with Close Combat. Basically, the point I'm trying to convey is that while Hitmonlee can do alot of damage, he is very easily revenge killed by alot of things, (doesn't matter if scarfed or banded), and 110spdef lols at 50 base HP.


Edit: Fear is really just a waste on any team, and when you see ratata, you know what the strategy is. Predictable, and only against a really nooby player, could it ever suceed. And you have one kill? Then it's gone.

 

[Deck Knight]

Edit: Fear is really just a waste on any team, and when you see ratata, you know what the strategy is. Predictable, and only against a really nooby player, could it ever suceed. And you have one kill? Then it's gone.

I assumed people would pick up the invisible /sarc
at the end of my last post >_>.

 

[Fishin]

Then look at Primeape then, really. About the same moveset as Hitmonlee fight-rock-fire wise, but has 95 base speed, but much less Sp.Def. Hitmonlee also boasts 120base speed. However, I have used both and I can tell you that they are not indestructable, it's just a sad thing that most of the UU def. walls take alot of damage from Hitmon's attacks, or aren't resistant..(Gligar? Don't know about the status of that). Hitmon could be scarfed or banded, doesn't matter for a ghost with Close Combat. Basically, the point I'm trying to convey is that while Hitmonlee can do alot of damage, he is very easily revenge killed by alot of things, (doesn't matter if scarfed or banded), and 110spdef lols at 50 base HP.

>_>

I'm willing to bet Gligar isn't a real counter for Lee. IIRC it's beaten by Pinsir's Stone Edge, and Lee has just 5 base attack less than Pinsir/Hera.

Anyways, Lee can definitely be revenge killed, but you could say that for basically any other sweeper (you could also say that he's free to just switch out, as well). For the record, he also resists Pursuit, though he'll probably still take a solid hit from it with his wimpy defense.

And that sp def isn't completely useless. Considering that he's up against UU threats, he can definitely take some weaker special attacks and survive.


Also, what's with the sudden discussion of theorymon?

 

[MrOneOhOne]

Haha, I knew I would typo.

But it's low HP means it can take a wimpy Lanturn Surf or whatnot, but not heavy UU hitters like Specs Manectric. 87 base speed in UU is good, but not the best. Although nothing in UU can safely switch in freely without prediction, I don't want to banish a perfectly good fighting type to bimbo-limbo, but if nothing can stand up to it, I guess that's what we have to do. Although, it's frail as can be, and it can switch in to weaker spatks maybe once or twice but that's about it.

 

[Pneuma]

Also, what's with the sudden discussion of theorymon?

I brought it up a few pages back to remind people that the lines drawn between BL and UU are not completely arbitrary but rather approached after months and months of talking about each pokemon. That it's not like this is the first time we've tried to consider something BL or UU. If anything, it's that we need less theorymon and much more actual experience.


As for Hitmonlee, his frailty is beyond surprising. He is very hard to bring in except on a predicted T-wave (he scares the hell out of Blissey, on a non-UU note). Even non-effective physical moves from tanks and walls are possible 2/3HKOs more often than not.

There is some note to him having enough SpDef to switch in on the bulky waters of UU if they Surf or Ice Beam, but without a Grass/Elec physical move, Fight/Fire/Rock has too much overlap and he can't hit them SE like he needs to do.

 

[MrOneOhOne]

I assumed people would pick up the invisible /sarc
at the end of my last post >_>.

I know, but I felt like explaining =D.

 

[Forsety]

FEAR was a sound concept until people discovered that Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sandstream, Snow Warning, Priority Moves, Ghost Types, and Rock and Steel types with Leftovers existed.

Sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet ._.

 

[Lee]

With the loss of MP, Hitmonlee becomes a little more vulnerable to fast normal type sleepers like Persian and Purugly. Obviously neither will want to switch in to take a hit but both can switch on the "revenge" forcing 'lee to either switch or run the risk of being Hypnotised.

Not neccesarily. Blaze Kick is disposable. The only reason it is standard is for Forretress and Heracross. CC/SE/EQ hits everything in UU harder, with the exception of Parasect and Wormadan (who are OHKO'd by the right move anyway). Mach Punch is still an option.

 

[Forsety]

I'm just going to say my opinion on Hitmonlee straight out. I don't believe its too strong for UU but definitely one of the higher threats. Its great as a wall breaker if someone attempts to draw out a game but its very much a one shot and is very unlikely to come back in later to wreak more havoc usually due to sustained damage.

Gonna bring up one last BL for discussion and I'm calling it a day since UU has been done to death and you wouldn't get further till someone throws up a UU tourney or something. Also I don't really see any other current BL's that could even be remotely considered left that haven't been discussed.

Flygon.

One could come at this from two angles but it seems to have been somewhat ignored.

The Against:-
-Very nicely dstributed stats makes it quite the well rounded powerhouse.
-STAB Draco Meteor, ouch.
-Movepool makes it extremely versatile.
-One of the few who have STAB on Earth Power
-Choiced Flygon can become a beast.
-Quite good with Life Orb
-Dragon/Ground is a great well rounded typing
-Levitate.

The For:-
-Trick of all trades, master of none.
-STAB Draco Meteor comes off 80 base but unlike Garchomp doesn't have a 130 attack and godly defenses to fall back on.
-Large majority of UU beat it in raw power on either side of the spectrum.
-Choice items make almost anything decent and there are stronger users in UU.
-4x Ice weakness (You saw this coming didn't you?)
-4 slot syndrome.
-Often forced to run -defense natures along with the two points above means it doesn't get to enjoy Roost very often.
-Dragon/Ground negates two major benefits of the dragon type like becoming neutral to Water/Grass.
-Absolutely no stat or status modifiers, it can't Swords Dance, it can't Agility it can't even so much as phaze. Its extremely static in its stats and style.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I'm just going to say my opinion on Hitmonlee straight out. I don't believe its too strong for UU but definitely one of the higher threats. Its great as a wall breaker if someone attempts to draw out a game but its very much a one shot and is very unlikely to come back in later to wreak more havoc usually due to sustained damage.

Gonna bring up one last BL for discussion and I'm calling it a day since UU has been done to death and you wouldn't get further till someone throws up a UU tourney or something. Also I don't really see any other current BL's that could even be remotely considered left that haven't been discussed.

Flygon.

One could come at this from two angles but it seems to have been somewhat ignored.

The Against:-
-Very nicely dstributed stats makes it quite the well rounded powerhouse.
-STAB Draco Meteor, ouch.
-Movepool makes it extremely versatile.
-One of the few who have STAB on Earth Power
-Choiced Flygon can become a beast.
-Quite good with Life Orb
-Dragon/Ground is a great well rounded typing
-Levitate.

The For:-
-Jack of all trades, master of none.
-STAB Draco Meteor comes off 80 base but unlike Garchomp doesn't have a 130 attack and godly defenses to fall back on.
-Large majority of UU beat it in raw power on either side of the spectrum.
-Choice items make almost anything decent and there are stronger users in UU.
-4x Ice weakness (You saw this coming didn't you?)
-4 slot syndrome.
-Often forced to run -defense natures along with the two points above means it doesn't get to enjoy Roost very often.
-Dragon/Ground negates two major benefits of the dragon type like becoming neutral to Water/Grass.
-Absolutely no stat or status modifiers, it can't Swords Dance, it can't Agility it can't even so much as phaze. Its extremely static in its stats and style.

Well, it loses to Walrein...

Obviously damage calcs for Draco Meteor on Gligar etc. are in order. I would do them myself but I have to finish other work.
Other factors would be if the special set is notable enough to create the same amount of unpredictability as SpecsMence. Probably not.
It would be cool to test this out in a UU tourney.

P.S. Draco Meteor is almost always STAB'ed.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

-Absolutely no stat or status modifiers, it can't Swords Dance, it can't Agility it can't even so much as phaze. Its extremely static in its stats and style.

Not quite true, as it can Screech the opponent, which sort of counts as a pseudo stat modifier. Come to think of it, I struggle to think of a Pokemon that can switch in and not be at least 2HKO'd after a Screech, as I don't think anything with Clear Body/White Smoke can take Earthquakes very well. Also, most things that could potentially KO with an Ice attack would risk being OHKO'd before they could move, except certain Choice Scarfers of course. A Life Orb set with Screech, Earthquake, Stone Edge and Dragon Claw/Crunch would likely tear up UU, or at least force overcentralization of the metagame.

EDIT: Can also U-Turn, which also works well as a third attack option on the Screech set. It would be very annoying to deal with if nothing else.

Well, it loses to Walrein...

One-on-one, yes, but that is true of most bulky Pokemon with Ice Beam. However, I don't think even a max Defense Walrein can stand up to two Life Orb Stone Edges on the switch in, or even one after a Screech.