-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
- Start date
- Status
Good thing they aren't UU...
Did you mean loose, or lose?
They are BL, meaning they can't be used in UU so loose doesn't fit...
but lose doesn't fit either seeing as they can't be used in UU, and therefore would not be able to "lose" in that tier.
The question of limiting "BL" Pokemon is a very simple question for me. You can either base the tiers on actual data and testing, or you can assign some sort of special significance to conjecture from several months ago made with absolutely no UU experience in DP.
I'm not trying to denigrate the efforts of those involved in determining tiering (I was part of it!). However, I'm also not going to elevate it to being somehow a default of 'correctness'. People at the time demanded tiers, even if they were in the end meaningless, so that's what they got. However, that does not mean that we should keep it just because it exists.
Take, for example, Shedinja. I have doubts that it would function well in NU, let alone UU, and yet it's currently BL.
For these reasons, I entirely reject the idea of limiting the number of BLs you can use. I also reject the theory that allowing BLs is a poor test because it means you aren't testing UUs as much. As far as I'm concerned, if the question is "Is this Pokemon too powerful?" there is as of yet no reason to separate BL from UU Pokemon. The distinction of "current" BL vs. "current" UU Pokemon, therefore, is also meaningless.
There is no magical importance to the current tier system. I for one don't think we should be playing the role of medieval astronomers by adding epicycles.
I'm not trying to denigrate the efforts of those involved in determining tiering (I was part of it!). However, I'm also not going to elevate it to being somehow a default of 'correctness'. People at the time demanded tiers, even if they were in the end meaningless, so that's what they got. However, that does not mean that we should keep it just because it exists.
Take, for example, Shedinja. I have doubts that it would function well in NU, let alone UU, and yet it's currently BL.
For these reasons, I entirely reject the idea of limiting the number of BLs you can use. I also reject the theory that allowing BLs is a poor test because it means you aren't testing UUs as much. As far as I'm concerned, if the question is "Is this Pokemon too powerful?" there is as of yet no reason to separate BL from UU Pokemon. The distinction of "current" BL vs. "current" UU Pokemon, therefore, is also meaningless.
There is no magical importance to the current tier system. I for one don't think we should be playing the role of medieval astronomers by adding epicycles.
Agreeing with Obi. There's no way 60+ Pokemon are all unbalance with each other and the 100+ Pokemon of UU. I mean, out of the 18 uber Pokemon we get those which counter and control each other, with some exceptions. There is no reason the majority of BL could not be called UU and make a balanced metagame. It would simply make some of the current UU only useful in the NU tier, which isn't so bad.
I actually played with Leafeon in UU quite a bit and to be honest I really didn't find it to be particularly spectacular ... it was certainly less impressive than several of the current UU standards.
Only NU is at present, pretty much a dead concept. If half of the reason you play UU is suddenly banished to a tier that nobody plays ... that surely can't be a good thing.
Also in my response to the reshuffling of the tiers and inserting OU/UU and getting rid of BL then there ought to be an extension of what is OU and UU on a 50/50 split, Personally I've always felt the tiers should be 67%/34%/1%/0-1% in accordance with OU/BL/UU/NU tiers if you wish to discuss them in terms of usage.
Now onto my main point.
Now onto my main point.
I feel that discussion of tiers has all but vanished on this, and seeing what this topic is completly about? Seeing how I am attempting to learn the UU metagame, discussions on this would be lovely :) However the viewpoint I am getting across is that if Pinsir is UU then it has no counters unless Gligar is present (Who I personally feel shouldn't be NFE)
Gligar's a somewhat sketchy counter to Pinsir anyways. SD'd Stone Edge is a 2HKO with Life Orb, and unlike Heracross, Pinsir isn't destroyed in one hit by AA. Actually, given its good defense, it's likely to come out on top of any fights vs a bulky Stone Edge user, like Quagsire or Sandslash.
From what I've heard, the usage for Tentacruel has dropped to the point where it should be legal again for UU. Anyone want to confirm that?
I can hardly wait to tear uu pokemon to shreds with Ursaring. Can you say stab facade with two abilities that make the poison worth it?
Seriously. I run a team where I baton pass a ton of junk from Ninjask to ursaring and then take out at least 4 of their team before finally succumbing to burn/poison/whatever.
Most of the previous discussion centered on moving stuff from UU up to BL, when my whole idea is premised on the reverse, which is why I've stopped discussing any change in particular. Under the current tiers, yes, something like Pinsir might be unbalanced, but... (I have no idea what's BL so I can't say much else).
Nothing is worthy of OU, it is simply used.
Likewise, nothing is so weak as to 'be UU', it is simply not used.
We've established that there is an equivalence relation between usage and power in a competitive forum such as this.
I only wish I had stressed it harder ITT and other places before the mod squad made it explicit.
Likewise, nothing is so weak as to 'be UU', it is simply not used.
We've established that there is an equivalence relation between usage and power in a competitive forum such as this.
I only wish I had stressed it harder ITT and other places before the mod squad made it explicit.
if you battled using squads in each tier (a UU a BL and an OU) you notice things, i have my BL team and some of the pokemon suggested moving down will not work in UU leafeon for me is too strong same with tauros, making something UU has to be thought of in terms of how it competes in its tier, i faced a sceptile with my UU team it got destroyed, leafeon will do the same so no.
i think clamperl should be moved UP to UU and pikachu removed when event moves are removed (looses a few important moves)
i think clamperl should be moved UP to UU and pikachu removed when event moves are removed (looses a few important moves)
I think BL should be divided into two tiers something like a low OU and a high UU. Don't know if it would work that well, but I think it could.
I frequently battle in different environments with teams from lower tiers ...
What makes it too strong? It's all very well saying I consider X too strong, but you really need to back it up with some sort of evidence ...
Yes, and it has been, my suggestion to make Leafeon UU was made on the basis that in my testing experience, whilst competetive it was not entirely overpowered, certainly by no means a dominant as the likes of Pinsir and the Hitmon's ...
Really? How does it fair against Jumpluff?
Well despite having decent base speed Leafeon is still outsped by a lot of stuff that forces it to switch (or Baton Pass), particularly anything faster with a super effective special attack (Froslass, Ninetales). Add to that poor type coverage in its movepool, giving a lot of stuff the opportunity to switch into it, certainly counterable in UU ...
Moved up from where? Smogon currently has no NU tier ...
I think more tiers would just make things overly complicated.
Given all this talk I decided to take a little action.
I've taken some time to look at UU and weed out what is essentially the new NU. The current UU has lasted long enough for us to get a good reading and feeling of what has becomes NU. With the direction this UU/BL discussion is heading, dropping the excess saves time when discussing and gives us a bottom structure at least. Its safe to say if we're raising the bar for UU, then what was unable to compete in the current UU doesn't stand a chance in a even faster UU.
Carnivine, Huntail, Corsola, Skuntank, Sunflora, Illumise, Delibird, Ditto, Girafarig, Spinda, Solrock, Pachirisu, Phione, Ariados, Stantler, Pidgeot, Plusle, Swalot, Mawile, Masquerain, Granbull, Minun, Volbeat, Bellossom, Delcatty, Glalie, Unown, Vigoroth, Crawdaunt, Tropius, Beautifly, Fearow, Arbok, Victreebel, Chimecho, Kricketune, Cherrim, Chatot, Farfetch'd, Mothim, Exploud, Wigglytuff, Wailord, Castform, Magcargo, Vespiquen, Wormadam, Whiscash, Luvdisc, Lunatone, Wormadam-S, Wormadam-G, Lumineon, Seviper, Dustox, Ledian, Seaking, Furret, Golem
Everything in this list has either been in steady/heavy decline or has been well below the top 200 for usuage for months now. Notable things being Crawdaunt who is excellent however has seen literally no usuage, my guess being at the expense of Sharpedo's popularity. Carnivine, Stantler, Victreebel have also been easily falling into disuse.
Golem I'm honestly reluctant to add here as I know its quite good, but it has been seeing a very high drop with each incoming month. This month it just fell below the 200 marker I've been using.
Sableye is a odd case, it would've made this list however within the last two months its completely surged in usuage. Literally rocketting well into UU territories. Could say it just made a last ditch rush into safe territory.
What this leaves us with is our current UU.
Linoone, Shuckle, Camerupt, Hitmonchan, Drifblim, Hypno, Ninetales, Altaria, Persian, Omastar, Nidoqueen, Kabutops, Butterfree, Swellow, Golduck, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Armaldo, Purugly, Poliwrath, Probopass, Cacturne, Banette, Jumpluff, Pikachu, Primeape, Toxicroak, Blastoise, Muk, Nidoking, Gorebyss, Bibarel, Lapras, Glaceon, Meganium, Grumpig, Cradily, Gastrodon, Raichu, Aggron, Venomoth, Cloyster, Dunsparce, Rapidash, Clefable, Relicanth, Kingler, Mr. Mime, Lanturn, Ampharos, Claydol, Manectric, Walrein, Qwilfish, Luxray, Rotom, Absol, Hitmonlee, Electrode, Scyther, Sandslash, Lopunny, Hitmontop, Torkoal, Sharpedo, Mightyena, Froslass,
Dewgong*, Beedrill*, Quagsire*, Vileplume*, Xatu*, Clamperl*, Flareon*, Sableye*, Mantine*, Pelipper*, Noctowl*, Dodrio*, Parasect*, Politoed*, Octillery*, Kecleon*, Sudowoodo*, Raticate*
Most of what is in this list has either managed to be used on a regular basis or has not shifted much from their positions. Clamperl is probably the biggest (lol wtf) but it has gotten some good usuage during the last 3 odd months. Flareon somehow finally pulled itself out of disuse by some miracle. As it stands this is what we're likely beginning with for the record and at the same time I'm wondering whether it may be time to submit the NU's.
Edit:
Made a few corrections, Dewgong, Beedrill and Parasect should be in the lower end UU.
As of now many of these UU only just barely teeter outside of disuse, I've separated and marked the ones which are in this situation. These are the ones who are performing worst but have been abit too inconsistent in usuage decide on.
Biggest surprises here are Quagsire who is often touted as a major threat in the UU circle, Sudowoodo with its excellent coverage. Noctowl and Pelliper quite sturdy pair of birds who can hold their own even in higher levels of play. Even Vileplume who was formerly a BL in Advance.
I've taken some time to look at UU and weed out what is essentially the new NU. The current UU has lasted long enough for us to get a good reading and feeling of what has becomes NU. With the direction this UU/BL discussion is heading, dropping the excess saves time when discussing and gives us a bottom structure at least. Its safe to say if we're raising the bar for UU, then what was unable to compete in the current UU doesn't stand a chance in a even faster UU.
Carnivine, Huntail, Corsola, Skuntank, Sunflora, Illumise, Delibird, Ditto, Girafarig, Spinda, Solrock, Pachirisu, Phione, Ariados, Stantler, Pidgeot, Plusle, Swalot, Mawile, Masquerain, Granbull, Minun, Volbeat, Bellossom, Delcatty, Glalie, Unown, Vigoroth, Crawdaunt, Tropius, Beautifly, Fearow, Arbok, Victreebel, Chimecho, Kricketune, Cherrim, Chatot, Farfetch'd, Mothim, Exploud, Wigglytuff, Wailord, Castform, Magcargo, Vespiquen, Wormadam, Whiscash, Luvdisc, Lunatone, Wormadam-S, Wormadam-G, Lumineon, Seviper, Dustox, Ledian, Seaking, Furret, Golem
Everything in this list has either been in steady/heavy decline or has been well below the top 200 for usuage for months now. Notable things being Crawdaunt who is excellent however has seen literally no usuage, my guess being at the expense of Sharpedo's popularity. Carnivine, Stantler, Victreebel have also been easily falling into disuse.
Golem I'm honestly reluctant to add here as I know its quite good, but it has been seeing a very high drop with each incoming month. This month it just fell below the 200 marker I've been using.
Sableye is a odd case, it would've made this list however within the last two months its completely surged in usuage. Literally rocketting well into UU territories. Could say it just made a last ditch rush into safe territory.
What this leaves us with is our current UU.
Linoone, Shuckle, Camerupt, Hitmonchan, Drifblim, Hypno, Ninetales, Altaria, Persian, Omastar, Nidoqueen, Kabutops, Butterfree, Swellow, Golduck, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Armaldo, Purugly, Poliwrath, Probopass, Cacturne, Banette, Jumpluff, Pikachu, Primeape, Toxicroak, Blastoise, Muk, Nidoking, Gorebyss, Bibarel, Lapras, Glaceon, Meganium, Grumpig, Cradily, Gastrodon, Raichu, Aggron, Venomoth, Cloyster, Dunsparce, Rapidash, Clefable, Relicanth, Kingler, Mr. Mime, Lanturn, Ampharos, Claydol, Manectric, Walrein, Qwilfish, Luxray, Rotom, Absol, Hitmonlee, Electrode, Scyther, Sandslash, Lopunny, Hitmontop, Torkoal, Sharpedo, Mightyena, Froslass,
Dewgong*, Beedrill*, Quagsire*, Vileplume*, Xatu*, Clamperl*, Flareon*, Sableye*, Mantine*, Pelipper*, Noctowl*, Dodrio*, Parasect*, Politoed*, Octillery*, Kecleon*, Sudowoodo*, Raticate*
Most of what is in this list has either managed to be used on a regular basis or has not shifted much from their positions. Clamperl is probably the biggest (lol wtf) but it has gotten some good usuage during the last 3 odd months. Flareon somehow finally pulled itself out of disuse by some miracle. As it stands this is what we're likely beginning with for the record and at the same time I'm wondering whether it may be time to submit the NU's.
Edit:
Made a few corrections, Dewgong, Beedrill and Parasect should be in the lower end UU.
As of now many of these UU only just barely teeter outside of disuse, I've separated and marked the ones which are in this situation. These are the ones who are performing worst but have been abit too inconsistent in usuage decide on.
Biggest surprises here are Quagsire who is often touted as a major threat in the UU circle, Sudowoodo with its excellent coverage. Noctowl and Pelliper quite sturdy pair of birds who can hold their own even in higher levels of play. Even Vileplume who was formerly a BL in Advance.
Do you not get it at all or what?
Maybe a graphic is in order.
*(Every 3 months, not every month, though that is quibbling)
The only difference between that graph and now is that we have the BL bucket filled. Let's empty the bucket.
- Status