DPP Kyogre (Thunder Wave Lead)

[Colloquy]

This is a lead Kyogre set that has worked incredibly well to others and I, including Theorymon and Misa. Thanks to darkie and the people on #ubers for their help.

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[SET]
name: Thunder Wave Lead
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Thunder
item: Lum Berry
nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
IVs: 30 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Kyogre in a lead position is often helpful to set the tone for the entire battle; not only will it set up rain that you can take advantage of with your other team members, it will also cripple opposing leads such as Darkrai and Groudon. Choice Scarf Mewtwo is easily Thunder Waved and picked off by Surf, as it can only muster a 4-3HKO (27.7% - 32.6%) with its strongest non-Selfdestruct attack, Focus Blast. 176 HP / 176 SpD Scizor has a small chance of getting OHKOed by Surf, and a 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor is always OHKOed. The common 240 HP / 184 SpD Tyranitar lead is 2HKOed (54.1% - 63.8%) with sandstorm up by Surf, as well.</p>

<p>Lum Berry on this set is important for two reasons. Firstly, if Darkrai tries to use Dark Void, your status will remain intact and you can subsequently OHKO with Surf. Second, the lack of Leftovers recovery when using a Berry means that you can fake a Choice Scarf, and as such, you won't need to fear getting tricked a Choice Scarf by opposing Trick Choice Scarf Darkrai. It will also help with taking on Groudon's Thunder Waves, and after that, you can OHKO with a rain-boosted Surf.</p>

<p>The EVs here are quite simple, yet important. It is critical you have absolutely no Speed EVs and a 30 Speed IV on this Kyogre, as it will let it get the rain up when faced against Groudon. The remaining EVs are put into Special Attack to do as much damage as possible.</p>

<p>Note that this set can be used as a mid-game sweeper, not only as a lead. Thunder Wave is incredibly helpful in taking down some counters. It's normally outclassed by the Calm Mind set in terms of sweeping, though, as that set can build up damage over time. If you do decide to go this route, though, run Expert Belt over Lum Berry, as it can still fake a Choice item.</p>

<p>This lead is meant to be used on an offensive team that can benefit from the paralysis. A good team mate for this lead is a mixed Palkia, as it benefits from both the paralysis and the fact Kyogre and Palkia have similar counters means that if you immobilize a Latias or opposing Palkia, it is easier for Palkia to sweep. Other Pokemon that do well with the support are Groudon and mixed Dialga, or just any slow but powerful Pokemon. Blissey is a common switch-in to this Kyogre and can wall it completely, so it is recommended you run Wobbuffet or another trapping Pokemon like Tyranitar to handle it.</p>

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[cim]

Chesto over Lum for TrickScarf Darkrai. There's no reason it would not trick you because of "no leftovers" when you don't have that info on turn 1, dummy :P

The EVs are pretty simple to sum up. "No Speed EVs are used to ensure that Rain starts after Groudon's Sun."

 

[Matthew]

This lead works really well, but add in Chesto or Lum Berry, just encase a Darkrai calls you out and uses Trick. Also you can slash in Hydro Pump with Surf, it's an option if someone would like more power.

 

[Colloquy]

Okay, adding. But, really, no Darkrai will Trick you because most Kyogre leads are Choice Scarfed. Also adding Hydro Pump.

 

[Jimbo]

paralyze with Thunder Wave and OHKO with Surf
^^ Maybe I'm misinterpreting this but why wouldn't you just OHKO it immediately (i.e. why bother Thunder-Waving?)

 

[Matthew]

Thunder Wave cripples Palkia that switch in thinking you're scarfed! Or a variety of other pokemon like Latias.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Choice Scarf Mewtwo is easily Thunder Waved and picked off by Surf, and it can only muster a 4-3HKO (27.7% - 32.6%) with its strongest non-Selfdestruct attack, Focus Blast.

Why would Mewtwo not use THUNDER against Kyogre? This damage calculation is pretty much irrelevant.

<p>Lum Berry on this set is important for two reasons. Firstly, if Darkrai tries to use Dark Void, your status will remain intact and you can subsequently paralyze with Thunder Wave and OHKO with Surf.

Same question. Why TWave it first and spoil your set when you can just OHKO and save yourself a turn? Not TWaving also means that you aren't screwed over if that Darkrai decides to Substitute instead. Saying that you used this Kyogre specifically for Darkrai leads me to believe that you didn't actually test this set....

TWave is more important for shit like Lugia, Palkia, some Scizor and Lati@s on the switchin. You should be emphasizing that instead of telling people to use twave on everything. edit: screw you gen empoleon you stole my point as i was posting >:O

I don't know if this needs to be a lead to be used effectively. I can see this working at any point in the game on a team.

 

[Sharpteeth]

I'm not sure about this, but since Groudon shares Kyogre's speed, and since not every Groudon actually runs speed (especially bulky variants), would 30 Speed IV be a good idea? It'd guarantee Rain against every Groudon, and I don't think it'd actually affect Kyogre much, since pretty much everything in Uber is faster than this already.

 

[Matthew]

Why would Mewtwo not use THUNDER against Kyogre? This damage calculation is pretty much irrelevant.

Lead Mewtwo very rarely carries Thunder, at least in my experience with this set

 

[Colloquy]

Why would Mewtwo not use THUNDER against Kyogre? This damage calculation is pretty much irrelevant.

TWave is more important for shit like Lugia, Palkia, some Scizor and Lati@s on the switchin. You should be emphasizing that instead of telling people to use twave on everything. edit: screw you gen empoleon you stole my point as i was posting >:O

Choice Scarf Mewtwo rarely runs Thunder, and Choice Scarf is the most common leading type.

Adding the bit about Thunder Wave, and Darkrai. The reason I said Thunder Wave Darkrai first is for switches, like you said, and not all will Dark Void. But, yeah, I'll change it. When did I say I used it specifically for Darkrai? And most lead Darkrai don't run Substitute unless they're anti-leads, which in that case they would switch.

30 Speed IV was my mistake, that's what I've been running e_E, so I'll fix that.

Also, I'll add a paragraph about using this with Expert Belt or something after I test that.

 

[diinbong]

<p>Kyogre in a lead position is often helpful to set the tone for the entire battle; not only will it set up rain that you can take advantage of with your other team members, it will also cripple opposing leads such as Darkrai and Groudon. Choice Scarf Mewtwo is easily Thunder Waved and picked off by Surf, as it can only muster a 4-3HKO (27.7% - 32.6%) with its strongest non-Selfdestruct attack, Focus Blast. 176 HP / 176 SpD Scizor has a small chance of getting OHKOed by Surf, and a 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor is always OHKOed. The common 240 HP / 184 SpD Tyranitar lead is 2HKOed (54.1% - 63.8%) with sandstorm up by Surf, as well. Hydro Pump can be used if you want to ensure to OHKO on Scizor, though, or just add some more power.</p>

<p>Lum Berry on this set is important for two reasons. Firstly, if Darkrai tries to use Dark Void, your status will remain intact and you can subsequently paralyze with Thunder Wave and OHKO with Surf. Second, the lack of Leftovers recovery when using a Berry means that you can fake a Choice Scarf, and as such, you won't need to fear getting tricked a Choice Scarf by opposing Trick Choice Scarf Darkrai. It will also help with taking on Groudon's Thunder Waves, and after that, you can OHKO with a rain-boosted Surf. A Chesto Berry can be used if you really fear Choice Scarf Darkrai (no comma) and don't want it to go without being paralyzed.</p>

<p>The EVs here are quite simple, yet important. It is critical you have absolutely no Speed EVs and a 30 Speed IV on this Kyogre, as it will let it get the rain up when faced against Groudon. The remaining EVs are put into Special Attack to do as much damage as possible.</p>

I just made suggestions in changing some of the articles here to make it a bit less awkward and flow a bit better.

oh, and I'd also like to mention my success with Thunder Wave on Kyogre in general, especially on the Specs set. With it over Surf, you can cripple Latias, Palkia, and assorted counters that normally could stall you out or outspeed and KO.

 

[Darkmalice]

I don't see the use of Chesto Berry. The opponent would be foolish to risk using Darkrai's Trick on lead Kyogre. The Kyogre is more likely to be carrying Scarf or Specs, and he would assume that Trick is suicide. Dark Void would be the practical option to use to shut down the choiced Kyogre or whatever switches in.

If the opponent was unsure of if the Kyogre was Choiced or if it was a Thunder Wave Lead, then it would swap out, as Darkrai risks its demise by using either Trick or Dark Void.

Lum Berry is useful against Brave/Sassy Groudon leads, and other leads that utilise status other than Sleep, and is in general, the better item to use. It's more likely to see use late game than a Chesto Berry if the opponent isn't Darkrai or Mew.

 

[Colloquy]

Okay, put in the paragraph on using this Kyogre set outside of the lead position, and took out Chesto Berry, like I had earlier.

 

[Havak]

Is this ready now, then? Looks pretty good and it's been up for more than enough time.

 

[Veedrock]

I've been testing this set on my Project Uber team and it works quite well, though Thunder Wave never works on the actual opposing lead. You can just KO Darkrai, Sash and Lum Deoxys will get up 2 hazards if you use TW, and so on (maybe it'll help on a Dialga lead). It's better for the switch in rather than the opposing lead, which you mention in the last paragraph but i feel should be emphasized more.

<p>Lum Berry on this set is important for two reasons. Firstly, if Darkrai tries to use Dark Void, your status will remain intact and you can subsequently paralyze with Thunder Wave and OHKO with Surf. Second, the lack of Leftovers recovery when using a Berry means that you can fake a Choice Scarf, and as such, you won't need to fear getting tricked a Choice Scarf by opposing Trick Choice Scarf Darkrai. It will also help with taking on Groudon's Thunder Waves, and after that, you can OHKO with a rain-boosted Surf.</p>

Eh, if you're going to "fake a scarf," then the bit about Darkrai and Groudon should be taken out. If it's a lead Darkrai, you're getting Voided (and can't fake regardless). If it's a switch in, it'll Void rather than Trick (seriously, why would you give Kyogre a choice item?!). If it's Groudon, it's raining, clear indication that you're not scarfed (specs runs speed too, so that won't work). That whole paragraph needs reworked. It's out of order and a lot of points are a train wreck.

176 HP / 176 SpD Scizor has a small chance of getting OHKOed by Surf, and a 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor is always OHKOed. The common 240 HP / 184 SpD Tyranitar lead is 2HKOed (54.1% - 63.8%) with sandstorm up by Surf, as well. Hydro Pump can be used if you want to ensure to OHKO on Scizor, though, or just add some more power.</p>

It's weird that you mention Scizor, go to Tyranitar, and then back to Scizor. Perhaps put Tyrantiar before Scizor to keep in order.

Firstly, if Darkrai tries to use Dark Void, your status will remain intact and you can subsequently paralyze with Thunder Wave and OHKO with Surf

Remove the bit about using Thunder Wave. You should just go for the OHKO. If its a substitute anti-lead OR goes straight for Trick, you just gave it a free turn. Also, Thunder Wave kind of ruins the "fake choice" ordeal (as does using the lum berry, but just in case it's a sub variation).


Ok, I think I've covered everything now. I hope I got my points across too, especially on the subject of choice faking (it was difficult to explain).


EDIT: Follow up; my EVs were fucked up all during my testing. lol.

 

[twash]

I've uploaded this to the SCMS, moving it now. Good job Addie.