7 days ago was "Draw Mohammed day". Organized by Molly Norris, cartoonist, she decided to champion the right of freedom of expression once she saw that South Park was censored from showing Mohammed. Creators also received threats saying their fates may be similar to one of a Danish cartoonist who was brutally mutilated and murdered. Facebook soon spawned hundreds of groups, the largest reaching nearly 60,000+ fans where discussions ranged from stereotypical crap to calm debates. Obviously the simplest response to outraged Muslims in response to the blatant desecration of a sacred part of Islam is "freedom of expression." I, however, am sick of that argument and would like to know from you all, whether that right warrants the shrewd defamation of a religion.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Drawing Mohammed
- Thread starter Tsunami
- Start date
- Status
How is drawing Mohammed a defamation of religion? How does defamating a religion warrant murder?
As an artist myself, I believe in absolute free-speech, and I don't see how mocking anyones religion should warrant DEATH. Jesus christ, have you seen the way South Park depicts god? He's some hairy hippo abomination thing, but draw Mohammed and HOLY SHIT EVERYONE'S THROWIN BOMBS. HOWEVER, I believe that this particular situation is also very abusable by racists who are just looking for a way to piss off muslim's, or stupid internet trolls. These people don't care about free-speech, and are just douchebags. That's something I disagree with.
Edit: ^ Shit like that is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, no, it's not okay to deface someone's religion, but people need to better understand what that means. Is drawing mohammed offensive? No, at least, it shouldn't be. Is dicking up the Qu'ran offensive? Gee no shit of course it is, and THAT sort of thing is wrong.
Edit: ^ Shit like that is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, no, it's not okay to deface someone's religion, but people need to better understand what that means. Is drawing mohammed offensive? No, at least, it shouldn't be. Is dicking up the Qu'ran offensive? Gee no shit of course it is, and THAT sort of thing is wrong.
Catholics and Jews get bashed by people on national television all the time. They put Jesus statues in jars of urine and call it "art," or construct a Holy Mary made entirely out of literal shit and call that "art" too, as well as a bunch of other blatantly offensive, crude, and stupid parodies. Not a day goes by where the same cowardly commentator that bashes Christianity relentlessly takes a bow five times a day to Mecca for fear of a fatwa. He knows that the Christian theocracy bogeymen isn't actually coming, so he feels safe doing it.
Muslims need to get over it. Every religion gets mocked by outsiders, either justly or unjustly. If people are crass and stupid and so is their "work," feel free to say so. I could cite unlimited examples of talentless hack artists trying to leech off moral outrage that most sane religious people don't give them.
Images of the prophet Mohammed are impossible for places that aren't theocratic hellholes to stop from appearing. Muslims are still free to worship as they please and it is not right to interfere, until such a point they start trying to commit (or threaten) murder or blow buildings and cars up in the name of Jihad. That's when their religious expression comes at odds with basic laws.
Muslims need to get over it. Every religion gets mocked by outsiders, either justly or unjustly. If people are crass and stupid and so is their "work," feel free to say so. I could cite unlimited examples of talentless hack artists trying to leech off moral outrage that most sane religious people don't give them.
Images of the prophet Mohammed are impossible for places that aren't theocratic hellholes to stop from appearing. Muslims are still free to worship as they please and it is not right to interfere, until such a point they start trying to commit (or threaten) murder or blow buildings and cars up in the name of Jihad. That's when their religious expression comes at odds with basic laws.
Should I have to follow the holy text of another man, even if I don't agree with those texts?
I am not of the Islamic faith. Therefore, I will not follow the rules of that faith strictly because they are that faiths rules.
If I draw a picture of Mohammed, then they do not have to look at it. They can say that it is offensive, they can go on stikes to try and influence others, but killing another person is just ridiculous.
I do not know how the Islamic faith works, but if it says anything about being able to kill any infidel, then they need to keep it to their own country and their own faith.
The persistence is to show that the people resisting will not let the threat of violence stop their liberty.
If the need be, yes.
A religion is not a basic human. Basic human rights allow us to talk down to any religion we see fit, and to defend religion from those who would talk down to it. It's disheartening, but it's not some massive injustice.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
@Tsunami, this has been going on with Christianity for longer than I've been on this earth, only worse. There are no objections. Why is it suddenly an inhumane thing to do when it's about Islam and Mohammed?
This about simply being able to draw him. I support equal freedom of expression towards ALL religions. In my mind, there should be no issue here, but the fact that there IS shows me there is a serious double-standard in place.
I could place a fatwa on my head right now just by changing my custom title to "Image of Mohammed below."
Smoochum is obviously not a depiction of Mohammed, but it would be just as offensive to Muslims as if it were hand-made art I did purposely to invite their rage.
They are in the wrong. I'm more than happy to condemn stupid, offensive, ridiculous images whose only real purpose seems to be proving the artist is a self-absorbed douchebag with a favorite target and no taste whatsoever. I will always demand they have the right to out themselves as a tasteless douchebag.
I'll take an example of a great artist we already have at Smogon. Rocket Grunt's more compelling artworks are routinely crass, vulgar, emphasize uglier characteristics, or generally low brow. It's a feature, not a bug. Ken Sugimori is never going to hire Rocket Grunt based solely on his primary art style, but he still produces detailed and amusing art. Sometimes low brow is good, especially when contrasted to the overly polished, cutesy style of official art. I sort of roll my eyes at some of it but it's definitely high quality material that he put a lot of effort into.
Point being everyone has an opinion of art, and anyone can call their work whatever they want. If Rocket Grunt wanted to call each of his works "prophetmohammed.png" he'd be within his license to do so. I'm sure they'd find that offensive, and you'd say he's just "persisting," but as far as I'm concerned the antagonist in the wrong is the one who threatens physical harm.
They have basic human rights. They can practice their religion, they can shun certain acts they dislike, and they can yell and scream. They can say whatever they want.
The breaking of rights occur, not when the opposite of what someone thinks happens, but when action is taken to stop someone's rights.
That being said;
Saying "Allah burn all the infidels," is okay.
Drawing a Mohammed is okay.
Killing people because they do not agree with your religion is not okay.
Tying someone down and forcing them to view images of Mohammed being raped by a pig demon is not okay.
If you don't want to be criticized, don't do things that are worthy of criticism. If you want to do things that are worthy of criticism (it's hard not to) you need to take it in stride like a big boy. If you want to attempt to snuff out a portion of our free speech with death threats, we WILL own you by not only doing what you tried to stop us from doing, but making it 10x more offensive than it was before. Honestly, Islam makes a direct attack to arguably the fundamental pillar of Western society, and we respond with insults, and you think we are acting inappropriately?
I'm offended by ten things a day. You can't ban being offensive, and you shouldn't ban being offensive. Christianity and Judaism have come to terms with the fact that we will call them on any bullshit they perpetrate. Just because one religion can't take an insult in a mature fashion doesn't mean they get to make death threats.
To any Muslims who think making death threats to cartoonists is okay: GROW UP
I'm offended by ten things a day. You can't ban being offensive, and you shouldn't ban being offensive. Christianity and Judaism have come to terms with the fact that we will call them on any bullshit they perpetrate. Just because one religion can't take an insult in a mature fashion doesn't mean they get to make death threats.
To any Muslims who think making death threats to cartoonists is okay: GROW UP
Truth be told, I'm a Muslim, and my dad's a Muslim as well. Thank God he's not the bearded, mentally retarded, stfu-and-do-what-I-tell-you-to-do Muslim. He's one of those free thinkers, and he also believes in freedom of speech. When the drawings of Muhammad came out, he said that we had it coming. And its true, with all the bombings in the name of Islam hurting innocent people. ITS ONLY AGAINST ENEMIES, NOT INNOCENT PEOPLE YOU RETARDS!!!
It was just a matter of time before people started to insult Islam.
Muslims should reply to this, not by blowing themselves up and anyone around them, but by means of a calm debate with the artists. Don't bring bearded sons of assholes, bring the youth. Bring the open-minded thinkers, not the one-minded thinkers.
Death threats? What the eff? That's just making our image worse!
Personally, I don't bow to Mecca 5 times a day. I just pray on Fridays. I listen to heavy metal. I play Pokemon, even though they say its forbidden. WTF, POKEMON IS FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM?? Yeah, it is. I looked it up. Although the ban was lifted some years ago.
That's just my opinion on this matter. Please don't flame me on my faith.
It was just a matter of time before people started to insult Islam.
Muslims should reply to this, not by blowing themselves up and anyone around them, but by means of a calm debate with the artists. Don't bring bearded sons of assholes, bring the youth. Bring the open-minded thinkers, not the one-minded thinkers.
Death threats? What the eff? That's just making our image worse!
Personally, I don't bow to Mecca 5 times a day. I just pray on Fridays. I listen to heavy metal. I play Pokemon, even though they say its forbidden. WTF, POKEMON IS FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM?? Yeah, it is. I looked it up. Although the ban was lifted some years ago.
That's just my opinion on this matter. Please don't flame me on my faith.
The thing is in Islam it's an explicit belief that "YOU WILL NEVER DRAW GOD/MOHAMMED/ETC EVER OR ELSE". Don't think that's the case with anyone in,say, Christianity, is it?
Also as far as free speech goes, (sorry if this sounds farfetched) don't radical Muslims have the right to make death threats? They are just threats, after all. AFAIK no one's actually killed another due to May the 20th - this is how it is with alot of Muslims these days - all talk, no action.
I think the whole situation is ridiculous personally; the Draw Muhammed day or whatever was really pointless and the ones who were vocal about it from both sides weren't helping matters.
EDIT: For the record:
Also as far as free speech goes, (sorry if this sounds farfetched) don't radical Muslims have the right to make death threats? They are just threats, after all. AFAIK no one's actually killed another due to May the 20th - this is how it is with alot of Muslims these days - all talk, no action.
I think the whole situation is ridiculous personally; the Draw Muhammed day or whatever was really pointless and the ones who were vocal about it from both sides weren't helping matters.
EDIT: For the record:
You can't really call yourself a Muslim then, I'm afraid.
The idea of "Everyone draw Mohammed" was one that I agree with. It's about standing up to violence and intimidation. We will not tolerate death threats, we will tolerate attempts by others to force their religions on us. They have the right to protest and to make their own views known, but they do not have the right to kill and burn.
But it kind of got spoiled because *chan got a hold of it and set out to deliberately draw obscene stuff.
A sidenote: regarding the 'original' controversy, IIRC some images circulated in the Islamic world that were considered the most offensive were not in the Danish newspaper - they were from other sources, and presumably added by someone wishing to stir up further trouble. (These may have been the images in the Akari-Laban dossier[/url, or maybe others, I'm unsure. I know there is an artwork depicting Muhammed performing fellatio, not in that dossier, which was not published in the Danish newspaper, but has most probably been circulated with claims it was).
But it kind of got spoiled because *chan got a hold of it and set out to deliberately draw obscene stuff.
A sidenote: regarding the 'original' controversy, IIRC some images circulated in the Islamic world that were considered the most offensive were not in the Danish newspaper - they were from other sources, and presumably added by someone wishing to stir up further trouble. (These may have been the images in the Akari-Laban dossier[/url, or maybe others, I'm unsure. I know there is an artwork depicting Muhammed performing fellatio, not in that dossier, which was not published in the Danish newspaper, but has most probably been circulated with claims it was).
What I meant by that is, I'm not of those Muslims who spend each minute reading the Quran or praying in mosques. I'm not one of those Muslims who wear man-dresses, and blow themselves up. I don't say "Fuck America", I love America. And I'm too lazy to get up and pray 5 times. Once or twice or if my dad tells me to.
That's who most of the Arabian youth lives today. They don't pray, nor do their dads (although some of them do), and they are forced upon traditions. I can't say much because I'm rushed at the moment, so I hope you get my point.
I gotta side with Empoleon on this. That's a pretty inconsiderate thing to say WeGotJazz.
I am a Muslim, and I did feel bad when this "Draw Mohammed" bullshit came out. Firstly, in Islam, drawing pictures of prophets, is strictly forbidden, perhaps it isn't forbidden to draw pictures of Jesus in Christianity, this why some cartoonists portray him in things like Family Guy, etc. If you know disrespecting someone's religion is going to get them into a rage, then why would you do it? Even when you know what happened to the Danish guy who got murdered. Are you trying to be attacked by someone by doing shit like that to their religion? And when you do get attacked, you blame Muslims for being terrorists and violent people. Well then it isn't a good idea to piss on someone else's religion, is it? "Standing up for violence and intimidation"... Have you thought about the innocent Muslims getting attacked in places like Iraq and Afghanistan? They're getting more terrorized and struck with more violence and intimidation. You should also know that when pulling off bullshit like "Draw Mohammed", you're also pissing off the Muslims who aren't terrorists and just want to live in peace, you provoking even more Muslims to get angry and do actions that you relate to "terrorism".
Honestly, this is the whole problem. Lots of people really just do not care about pissing off religions, the problem is, most other religions deal with it or just denounce it or something. Islam responds with terrorism and brutal murder. It is this, more than anything else, that makes this a big deal to people. It offends our sensibilities that you say "you can't draw that" when we honestly wouldn't even have thought about it in the first place.
We live in a free world, this is what should happen to make this go away:
1. Islam has to tolerate that people will draw Mohammad, and other prophets, although obviously they don't (and shouldn't) just accept it as "fine".
2. When this happens, people will forget about Mohammad and draw him LESS because you lot aren't telling us what we can and cannot do.
By the way, no other major religion (other than Atheism in Communist countries, if you count that as a religion) threatens violence for going against it's teachings in the present day. Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism all deal with people making fun of them (although, honestly, who makes fun of Buddhists?), although they denounce it. Islam has to learn the difference between denouncing something and attempting to kill it.
But here's the question, Why would you be doing it in the first place? Are you trying to show off your artistic skills? Are you trying to show you have the ability to draw a human being? Why wouldn't you just not interfere with a religion's laws, and just let it be?
or question(s)
Why is it Islam? Why isn't it what people do in the name of Islam that you guys should be talking about
Islam is a mild and peaceful religion, but people are taking it to the extreme. Blowing up themselves in public places, making death threats to anyone who makes fun at their prophet, are some examples of bullshit people make in the name of Islam. Death threats should be replaced by calm debates.(wow de javu) Blowing up your self? Hey, calling all emo Muslims! (meant to be said with a joking tone)
And I have to agree with TheLegendKiller, innocent people are being killed everyday here in Arabia. Remember last year, I think, when Gaza was brutally bombed EVERYDAY. Little babies who were not even 3 months old died. Lots of people lost everything. And for what? "Taking out terrorists' cells". Thank you, stupid people who make life worse EVERYDAY for Muslims.
And on another note, terrorism has no religion. No religion I have ever read about says "you must kill all infidels". Terrorism is an act where groups of people are murdered for nothing, or a false cause. What Israel is doing to Gaza is a good example (not to be insulting them or anything).
Read this- http://www.jfednepa.org/mark silverberg/origins.html
And tell me what you think about Islam.
EDIT- You don't believe me about Gaza? Take a good look.
]
This one actually brought me to tears:
And you said Muslims were terrorists......
Islam is a mild and peaceful religion, but people are taking it to the extreme. Blowing up themselves in public places, making death threats to anyone who makes fun at their prophet, are some examples of bullshit people make in the name of Islam. Death threats should be replaced by calm debates.(wow de javu) Blowing up your self? Hey, calling all emo Muslims! (meant to be said with a joking tone)
And I have to agree with TheLegendKiller, innocent people are being killed everyday here in Arabia. Remember last year, I think, when Gaza was brutally bombed EVERYDAY. Little babies who were not even 3 months old died. Lots of people lost everything. And for what? "Taking out terrorists' cells". Thank you, stupid people who make life worse EVERYDAY for Muslims.
And on another note, terrorism has no religion. No religion I have ever read about says "you must kill all infidels". Terrorism is an act where groups of people are murdered for nothing, or a false cause. What Israel is doing to Gaza is a good example (not to be insulting them or anything).
Read this- http://www.jfednepa.org/mark silverberg/origins.html
And tell me what you think about Islam.
EDIT- You don't believe me about Gaza? Take a good look.
This one actually brought me to tears:
And you said Muslims were terrorists......
- Status