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Drawing Mohammed
- Thread starter Tsunami
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It's a function of conditioning. There's always some user out there who thinks if they take a random whack at me (even in threads where I probably agree with them) they'll get respect points or something. I prefer not to let them get that idea.
It's also free experience in being polite (relatively) and forceful.
The Quran does have a ton of verses that can be twisted in the jihadist direction, yes. Middle Eastern culture in general is not looked upon highly in most Western nations. The westernized variety of Islam is quite different in many of its practices than the "traditional" form. The biggest problem is the radicals are centered in the center of Islam's dominion and they're perfectly happy with executing the westernized traitors to "true Islam." I applaud any western Muslim who speaks out, since they're always under the greatest threat, often from their own mosque!
Ultimately only Muslims can reform Islam. The biggest problem is that one side is predisposed to speech, nonviolent devotion, and a personal struggle while the other proclaims it is engaged in a physical war based on religious principles fighting towards a temporal political end. One is on a jihad against the corruptions of the self and the other on a jihad against the corruptions of the other.
right, all muslims believe in allah. that makes your first point however many posts ago 'accurate' (i use quotations because describing believers as stupid is not something i would consider accurate). however, do all of them believe in him out of fear of retribution? you have yet to prove that. you've also yet to prove that worshiping a higher being who has been shown to do evil things makes you an evil person. i think we need some more leeway!
how the fuck did you get 'pro-muslim' from anything i've said? and you accuse me of not understanding your posts. pretty sure they only thing i've made any claim to is that such wide generalizations are faulty, especially in regards to grey areas like 'evil' and 'stupid'. and now i'm in the same boat as muslims? i better be getting lots of virgins for this.
your blatant moral absolutism along with your silly quote about monsters and abysses are more than enough to make anyone draw the parallel i did. interesting that you vehemently oppose those who would limit freedom yet feel anyone stupider than you is not worthy of respect. what kind of world do you live in?
the beauty of opinion is that it is neither true nor false. that said, saying things like 'that doesnt make my statement any less true!!!' when your statement was 'muslims are evil' doesn't exactly work. though i guess technically you are right; it is impossible to make less true something that was not true at all to begin with.
i think it's safe to assume inter-sass is the extent of your quest to free the world from evil. unfortunately, it's still cowardly. you can think yourself an internet robin hood all you like, but you're really not doing anything productive for anyone!
This is why I listed tiers of my disrespect for Muslims. No matter what, if you're Muslim, I have no respect for you. I couldn't possibly respect you any less. However, I can add reasons to my disrespect for you, and that was the point of my listing the reasons.
To me, worshiping an evil being (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=worship) makes you evil too. Perhaps you can explain why you feel the capacity to idolize an evil being can exist in one who is not evil?
I refer to you as "pro-Muslim" because, like all good apologists, you seek to defend and justify what these people believe. There is absolutely no getting around the fact the Quran contains material most Western people would object to, even consider evil.
Considering groups unworthy of respect has nothing to do with freedom. I'm confused as to how you inferred anything of the sort.
As you say, opinions are not true or false. I'm merely stating, and explaining, my own, which arrogant as it may sound I consider superior to yours (and that of the other contributors to this thread). I know you don't see it, and I lack the capacity to make you understand, but you've been wrong at every turn and I grow bored of dealing with that. We'll have to agree to disagree - and naturally, I will assume and take it as read that we disagree on whether or not you've spoken a word of sense since this conversation began.
Regardless, since I do feel that a right to freedom of expression should be the highest tenet of a moral society, I will reiterate that even using that right online is good and desirable. I will thank you, however, to note that you know nothing of me and it's therefore fallacious to assume promoting and exercising said right online is the extent of my belief in it.
Again, let's leave it at this with the understanding we each consider the other an idiot.
To me, worshiping an evil being (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=worship) makes you evil too. Perhaps you can explain why you feel the capacity to idolize an evil being can exist in one who is not evil?
I refer to you as "pro-Muslim" because, like all good apologists, you seek to defend and justify what these people believe. There is absolutely no getting around the fact the Quran contains material most Western people would object to, even consider evil.
Considering groups unworthy of respect has nothing to do with freedom. I'm confused as to how you inferred anything of the sort.
As you say, opinions are not true or false. I'm merely stating, and explaining, my own, which arrogant as it may sound I consider superior to yours (and that of the other contributors to this thread). I know you don't see it, and I lack the capacity to make you understand, but you've been wrong at every turn and I grow bored of dealing with that. We'll have to agree to disagree - and naturally, I will assume and take it as read that we disagree on whether or not you've spoken a word of sense since this conversation began.
Regardless, since I do feel that a right to freedom of expression should be the highest tenet of a moral society, I will reiterate that even using that right online is good and desirable. I will thank you, however, to note that you know nothing of me and it's therefore fallacious to assume promoting and exercising said right online is the extent of my belief in it.
Again, let's leave it at this with the understanding we each consider the other an idiot.
Except that's not what it says at all. "Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression." is the passage that lati0s quoted as kill the infidals, and it quite clearly says only fight people who are oppressive, if you read that as kill them all, then you're against most other religions.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2697579&postcount=61
You're boring. Read it.
@ Glen - chasing the reflection of the moon in water will only get you drowned.
You're boring. Read it.
@ Glen - chasing the reflection of the moon in water will only get you drowned.
I just don't get why it is necessary to antagonize religions; it honestly makes (radical) atheists just as bad as (radical) religious zealots such as the Westboro Baptist Church and the (radical) Muslims.
I just don't see how people thinking fighting fire with more fire results in a fire of less intensity...
also, for those that are speaking of how the Qur'an preaches of constant fighting and killing, why are only a small portion of Islamic people the type of fear/hate mongers you claim them to be?
I just don't see how people thinking fighting fire with more fire results in a fire of less intensity...
also, for those that are speaking of how the Qur'an preaches of constant fighting and killing, why are only a small portion of Islamic people the type of fear/hate mongers you claim them to be?
I'm fairly sure you also disrespect anyone with a religion. (Fairy tales, you called them earlier.) Here's a counter-example (not from Islam, of course): the Bible has multiple events (decent percentage of the events, at least) recorded that have been mostly been proven to have happened. (EDIT 3:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#Historicity_of_David
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historical_authenticity
Ok, so not proven, but the root of them is likely true.)
To me, disrespecting everyone who has an opinion is evil. And is it evil to help those who have placed their faith and trust in you to succeed? And those "evil" acts?In the words of Job, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away" - God's creation, God's decision.
Examples ... ? (If you are refering to any wars, then in old days, it was more of standard business...)
By considering them unworthy, you are trying to remove any attention that anyone pays to them. I respect opinions, even if I don't agree, as long as they are backed up. I respect even the KKK's opinions, they give a reason for it (of course, I disagree with them entirely, but that's beside the point...) And not respecting people is a step away from disrespecting them, which is a step away from a fight (given the number of fights over in my school, I think I'm qualified to speak, here). However, your reasoning: what evidence do you have that there isn't God? None that I've seen. As such, I have no respect for your lsck of respect for those of us with a religion
Name 5 posters in this thread who don't think that their own opinion is better than anyone else's... "I lack the capacity to make you understand ... whether or not you've spoken a word of sense since this conversation began" is plain bashing and talking down to us. Condescending. Please do not insult our intelligence. I've seen plenty of sense, and most of it was not from you (Give good reasons for what you said. Please. I've seen enough to tell me you do have reasons, albeit ones I probably disagree with.)
From your posts, I know this of you: you are condescending, you are probably an athiest. Also, explain how exercising your right online isn't the full extent of your beliefs. Walk the Walk.
Do I need to comment on this?
EDIT: way to completely skim over my post, and pick-and-choose what to answer. Did I request a "full account"? No, I requested just enough to prove you were not just saying that to get everyone off your back.
EDIT 2: well, I meant to ask that way. But it still wasn't a request for a "full account".
For the same reason dogs aren't all violent and aggressive: we keep them in check and after a few generations they're domesticated.
EDIT: @ Aura Guardian - my personal life is not something I choose to discuss with you. I'm sure you don't require a full account of any life experience someone mentions, and I won't be drawn into a discussion about my personal life in this matter.
As for the rest of your post, I choose to disregard it. You ask too many self-evident questions, and used as I am to allowing for the fact few people can keep up, there's a limit to how far I care to bend.
I didn't read much past the first page in this thread but here's what I have:I didn't participate in Draw Mohammad Day. Why? Because I didn't know about it. Would I have otherwise? No.I don't know much about this guy. I understand what happened in South Park and I don't appreciate how some Muslims reacted. The show was created in America which allows freedom of religion, and of speech. The main thing that was said to the South Park creators wasn't technically a threat so it was able to get away, is that correct?It wasn't every single Muslim who threatened South Park, or anyone else who draws the pictures, so I wouldn't set out to offend every single Muslim. I don't need to see a picture of Mohammad, it's no big deal to me. I'm not going to ask why pictures are bad, the answer doesn't matter to me.What I don't like is that people are killing people. No matter what the context, it souldn't be done. Death sentence for murderers is another story. Those who intent on killing non-murderers should be stopped.Muslims are popular (atleast where I live) because they're the ones doing a lof of the killing. I only really know two guys from the middle east. I like both of them and I notice that their personalities stand out where I live. It's just the mixing of cultures. Would I offend them if I drew the prophet Mohammad? Probably, but I wouldn't want to do something like that to someone I like, they never tried to be mean to me. I understand that being a Muslim doesn't make someone a terrorist but it seems like not all Muslims care enough to stop them. "Sure they killed my neighbors but I don't mind because I know I'm safe" (Maybe this is just a western culture opinion, I have never been to the middle east) Not everyone knows the difference between someone who is a Muslim and someone who is a terrorist. These days, most of the terrorist acts are done by Muslims. This causes some to think that one means the other. Of course most Muslims are not to blame for what goes on but I think that stopping the actual trouble makers is more important than figuring out how the religion and terrorist acts are related.The worst part about all this is religion itself. The good parts of religion are mostly neutral, sometimes good where people feel like they're pleasing the god/s by helping others. In this case, helping others is just a side-effect of religion. The bad part is what's going on now. Both of these have been happening for a long time and we have no real proof as to whether helping or hurting each other makes any difference.
EDIT how do I skip lines, using br and the triangles? i hit enter and try shift + enter and ended up with a mess.
EDIT how do I skip lines, using br and the triangles? i hit enter and try shift + enter and ended up with a mess.
I'd like to thank Lelouch for giving me this opportunity to come out and say that I have an IQ of 144 on the WISC-III, and that the University of Washington asked me to attend their college when I was 10. Normally it'd be considered outrageously arrogant to ever mention such things, but Lelouch is such a black hole of pretentious self importance that I'm pretty sure no one will notice.
To give some substance to this post, the more I think about it, the less I actually agree with Draw Mohammed day. I still think they have every right to draw Mohammed, certainly shouldn't be killed for it. But I don't respect them for it. Criticizing the way a religion is practiced can only lead to it being practiced better. People like Lelouch who make blanket statements about religion in general (or a religion) I can respect no more than I can the KKK or a Neo Nazi.
To give some substance to this post, the more I think about it, the less I actually agree with Draw Mohammed day. I still think they have every right to draw Mohammed, certainly shouldn't be killed for it. But I don't respect them for it. Criticizing the way a religion is practiced can only lead to it being practiced better. People like Lelouch who make blanket statements about religion in general (or a religion) I can respect no more than I can the KKK or a Neo Nazi.
Just forget about it, you can argue with someone until it reaches a point where this is no point in arguing anymore.
What happened here? Did you quote the wrong person or what?
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Huh? Did you say something?
"IT'S A TRAP!" Specifically, you're falling into the trap of making this a personal argument. You have no need to prove yourself to anyone, and statements like these (insults) won't get you anywhere in an "argument" such as this one. Just state your opinion and leave it at that.
I respect those who participated in Draw Mohammed day, because it shows they refuse to be intimidated by the ridiculous death threats and terror tactics of extremist Muslims. It shows they are not afraid to publicly stand up for freedom of expression.
Also, regarding earlier posts, it was nice to hear from Adm.Empoleon on this issue, since his viewpoint is very important to this issue.
I've never heard of this. Citation very much needed. Please post sources when you get the chance. Many notable events have a distinct lack of archeological/geological evidence backing them. Including the great flood, and the exodus from Egypt. At least that is what I thought. If you have evidence, I am interested in seeing it.
(Though can you send it to me via PM so this thread doesn't get further derailed?)
First off, I' sorry for not looking into it more, I just googled for verses and posted what I found. However, I would say that even if it was not meant that way, the second verse could definitely be interpreted as justifying the murder of the cartoonist as some people might view the portrayal of Mohammad as an attack on their faith and thus a form of oppression.
It's not personal at all. If I'm against hate speech towards blacks, Jews, and gays, why should I should pat people on the back for being hateful towards Muslims? This started with South Park, but it's worth noting that South Park has always been critical of how a religion is practiced and not simply hateful. When the incident with the Danish newspapers happened, they didn't aim to draw Mohammed in a humiliating fashion, they just wanted to draw him. That was all they needed to prove their point. Yelling "I shit on your prophet" is just a childish overreaction, no matter how legitimate the offense. The Ayatollah was the one who ordered the execution, shit on him. I value freedom of expression more than almost anything, but I don't have to and will not respect a hateful exercise of that freedom.
1) Were you really? I can't tell if this is sarcasm lol. Sorry.
2) Agreed completely. I have no problem with the freedom of speech. However, one cannot deny that it disrespects the Islam religion, and those who follow it. By drawing it, you're not taking a stand against fundamentalism; you're taking a stand against those who worship their religion peacefully, which I disagree with.
Where's the +1 Karma button on this forum.
I don't like the idea of the whole idea of the "Draw Mohammed Day" because it's insulting/offending a large group of people to prove a point to a very small minority of that group. You aren't going to prove anything to the extremists, they are twisted and inflexible, and you just make moderate Muslims unsympathetic towards your cause.
Lelouch, I can't tell if you are trolling or not. You should research Islam and religion in general before you make statements that make you seem completely ignorant.
Lelouch, I can't tell if you are trolling or not. You should research Islam and religion in general before you make statements that make you seem completely ignorant.
I'm not a Muslim but honestly I think the draw Muhammad thing is bullshit. I don't see how anyone's idea of fun is to draw a picture of a prophet from another religion. I don't see any intention but to offend, and poke fun at others and I'm not sure that should come under the protection of freedom of speech.
I also notice a post from Deck Knight telling Muslims to "get over it". I assume that Deck too wouldn't mind offensive depictations of Christian figures. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it is acceptable. Just seems like hypocrisy there.
There are Muslims drawn from their belief in God to be honest and decent people and of use to the wider community through charity and discipline. If you don't respect people for anything other than their religion, you are just a bigot.
I also notice a post from Deck Knight telling Muslims to "get over it". I assume that Deck too wouldn't mind offensive depictations of Christian figures. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it is acceptable. Just seems like hypocrisy there.
I doubt Muslims have any respect for you, and nor do I after such an ignorant post. Get off your high horse for fucks sake. Will you recognise that there are like 1 billion Muslims of different cultural backgrounds, personal beliefs and inclinations. Not all Muslims have the same beliefs except the basic belief in Allah and that Muhammad is His messenger. If they did, then there wouldn't be infighting between different sects for like the last 1300 years.
There are Muslims drawn from their belief in God to be honest and decent people and of use to the wider community through charity and discipline. If you don't respect people for anything other than their religion, you are just a bigot.
@ Vega - I don't appreciate the implication that I have somehow implied ignorance of the facts involved. Where there is any ambiguity, I have stated as much. I haven't read the entirety of the quran, but have read more than enough to justify my statements about its content. As I said, the quran teaches morals most Western audiences would find reprehensible. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, you're in denial and an idiot.
@ SBC - another idiot. Notice how I don't mention the sects of the ridiculous cult. I already said there are cherry-pickers who obey the "good" parts of their book and ignore the objectionable parts. And I already explained that it's immaterial: you claim that Allah is all knowing and the quran is his word, you are stating your approval of the objectionable material in the book. There's nothing else to it. I couldn't care less whether or not you're into the apocryphal shit or obey the various "rules" not mentioned in the book but commanded by leaders of muslim sects. The things all Muslims share are more than enough to call them all disgusting and immoral.
Is not one person here willing to attempt to think beyond their indoctrination?
@ SBC - another idiot. Notice how I don't mention the sects of the ridiculous cult. I already said there are cherry-pickers who obey the "good" parts of their book and ignore the objectionable parts. And I already explained that it's immaterial: you claim that Allah is all knowing and the quran is his word, you are stating your approval of the objectionable material in the book. There's nothing else to it. I couldn't care less whether or not you're into the apocryphal shit or obey the various "rules" not mentioned in the book but commanded by leaders of muslim sects. The things all Muslims share are more than enough to call them all disgusting and immoral.
Is not one person here willing to attempt to think beyond their indoctrination?
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