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Dusknoir (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by religiousjedi, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Status: Done
    QC Approval: Iconic, PK Gaming, Bloo
    GP Checks: Zystral, Calm Pokemaster


    Togekissfans' Analysis

    [Overview]

    <p>Dusknoir returns to the latest generation in an unfamiliar position. Originally one of the best spinblockers in the D / P era, Dusknoir faces stiff competition from newcomers such as Cofagrigus, Jellicent, Chandelure, and Golurk, each boasting an impressive ability, a secondary typing, or sometimes both. In addition, the introduction of Eviolite gave its pre-evolved form, Dusclops, a new lease of life, as Dusclops can better perform some of the duties Dusknoir can with a 50% boost to both its Defense and Special Defense.</p>

    <p>Still, don't let that discourage you from using Dusknoir, as its defenses still rank high compared to most Ghost-types, especially with the absence Rotom appliances' Ghost-typing. Though Dusclops can perform the same duties Dusknoir can, Dusknoir does have decent Attack, meaning it can cause damage while taking it, instead of relying on Night Shade or Seismic Toss. And unlike some of the newer Ghost-types, Dusknoir boasts a plethora of status and niche moves it can make use of with its defenses, such as Gravity, Will-O-Wisp, Grudge, Destiny Bond, Skill Swap, Memento, Trick Room, and Toxic. Dusknoir may have taken a hit this generation, but it still serves as a great spinblocker who can hit back.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Pain Split
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Punch / Shadow Sneak
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 228 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The standard wall from last generation returns, granted, with a few bumps on the road. Despite this, Dusknoir serves as a good spinblocker, and with Will-O-Wisp around, most physical attackers will struggle to defeat Dusknoir after the burn. Though Leftovers is around, Pain Split is needed to recover health, especially with Dusknoir's pitiful HP. This can be beneficiary though, as it cuts Blissey's and Chansey's health in half while Dusknoir fully recovers, leaving the door open for stronger physical attackers to jump in and finish either one off.</p>

    <p>The last two slots are reserved for taking on potential counters. Earthquake is necessary for two reasons this generation: Heatran and Chandelure. Both will enjoy absorbing Will-O-Wisp thanks to their ability and both will surely OHKO Dusknoir after the boost. Heatran is OHKOed by Earthquake whereas Chandelure gets 2HKOed. The last move slot is up for grabs; Fire Punch is useful against foes such as Air Balloon Excadrill, Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn whereas Shadow Sneak can pick off weakened foes. It should be noted, however, that a Chandelure weakened by Earthquake is subsequently KOed by Dusknoir's Shadow Sneak afterwards. In addition, Stealth Rock and maximum damage from Shadow Sneak can 2HKO Chandelure on the switch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With Eviolite Dusclops pulling off a similar set with better defenses, it would seem odd to choose Dusknoir for a role of tanking. That's far from the case, however. Despite the fact that it lacks a 50% boost to both defenses, Dusknoir's defenses are still naturally high, and having an item slot free means Dusknoir can slowly recover health with Leftovers. In addition, Dusknoir has a decent base 100 Attack to fight back against other Pokemon. Those 28 Attack EVs are required to OHKO Heatran with Earthquake, something Dusclops wishes it could do. There are other options in the last slot, such as Ice Punch to combat Poison Heal Gliscor, who will most likely avoid Will-O-Wisp due to Toxic Orb and / or Taunt. It also helps against the myriad of Dragon-types, plus retains coverage on Whimsicott and gains coverage against Thundurus. The other option is ThunderPunch, which covers Gyarados nicely, as it too will avoid Will-O-Wisp with Taunt. ThunderPunch also retains coverage on Skarmory and hits Jellicent harder than any other attack Dusknoir launches.</p>

    <p>This set has much to fear from Guts users, particularly Conkledurr, who will enjoy burn and can easily set up or beat you outright with Payback after the boost. For that reason, sturdy Flying-types such as Gliscor and Skarmory can handle some damage and either Taunt it to prevent potential Bulk Ups, phaze with Whirlwind, or damage it with STAB Flying-type attacks. If it gets in unscathed, Reuniclus makes a great partner, being able to scare away Conkledurr with STAB Psychic.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move1: Substitute
    move2: Focus Punch
    move3: Shadow Sneak
    move4: Ice Punch / ThunderPunch / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    aature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Many will scoff at the idea of SubPunching Dusknoir making an impact when the Iron Fist variant of Golurk can hit harder, but Dusknoir can still effectively pull off the set with some notable advantages. For one, Dusknoir is pure Ghost-type, limiting its weaknesses to two; Golurk will struggle in setting up due to its Grass-, Water-, Ghost-, and Dark-type weaknesses. Also, common Rapid Spin users such as Starmie are beaten by this Dusknoir thanks to priority Shadow Sneak. In addition, Dusknoir has access to the elemental punches, meaning it has broader coverage. Lastly, Dusknoir has priority in the form of Shadow Sneak, something devoid in Golurk's moveset.</p>

    <p>Substitute should be used as soon as possible so Dusknoir can whack foes with Focus Punch, in addition to protecting from status. With Ghost- and Fighting-type attacks, everything is hit at least for neutral damage. The final moveslot is up for grabs with the choices of Ice Punch, Will-O-Wisp, and ThunderPunch. Ice Punch covers Gliscor, who takes very little damage from anything Dusknoir launches otherwise; Will-O-Wisp weakens physical attackers, helping Dusknoir's Substitutes survive longer; finally, ThunderPunch covers Gyarados and other bulky Water-types, in addition to granting coverage against Skarmory.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The reason Fire Punch wasn't included is because Focus Punch does the same amount of damage to Ferrothorn. In any case, it would be much better to burn it with Will-o-Wisp to prevent it from breaking Dusknoir's meager Substitutes. The only other worthwhile physical Ghost-type move is Shadow Punch; however, while more powerful than Shadow Sneak, Dusknoir prefers the priority from Shadow Sneak to pick off foes weakened by Focus Punch and / or its additional coverage move. Speaking of priority Sucker Punch is more powerful, but it is a very risky option due to its unreliability.</p>

    <p>Wish support is appreciated to recover Dusknoir's health, seeing as Leftovers will cover little to offset Substitute's uses. Entry hazards will also be of help to Dusknoir, as they help achieve easier KOs. However, it should be noted that Conkledurr again walls Dusknoir with this set, so Gliscor or Reuniclus are great partners to consider. Blissey and Eviolite Chansey are great partners to provide Wish support, and can take Ghost-type moves aimed at Dusknoir. Meanwhile, Wish Jirachi with Psychic can make quick work of incoming Conkledurr. Finally, Ferrothorn enjoys taking Ghost- and Dark-type moves aimed at Dusknoir, while providing useful entry hazards.</p>

    <p>To show the viability of a SubPunching Dusknoir, here are some calculations on commonly seen foes:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculations"><li>Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 59.1% - 69.9%</li>
    <li>Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 59.1% - 70.5%</li>
    <li>Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 78.6% - 93.9%</li>
    <li>Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 52.7% - 62.6%</li>
    <li>Sucker Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 69.5% - 82.4%</li>
    <li>Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 103.1% - 122.1%</li>
    <li>Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 69.5% - 82.4%</li>
    <li>Sucker Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 92.4% - 109.2%</li></ul>

    [SET]
    name: Gravity
    move 1: Gravity
    move 2: Pain Split
    move 3: DynamicPunch / Earthquake
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Will-o-Wisp
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Dusclops' improved defenses thanks to Eviolite, many people will scoff at the idea of using Dusknoir in a similar role. However, Dusknoir still has merit with Gravity; its base Attack is 30 points higher than Dusclops, making DynamicPunch, with an 82% accuracy thanks to Gravity, an almost surefire KO against enemy Tyranitar that do not invest in HP and / or Defense, something Dusclops wishes it could do. Shadow Sneak helps in picking off weakened foes that DynamicPunch nearly finishes off. It also forms the Ghost / Fighting duo that provides unresisted coverage. The last slot is reserved for Pain Split, which helps Dusknoir recover health as it keeps up Gravity for its fellow teammates.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Will-O-Wisp can go over Shadow Sneak; 100% accurate Will-O-Wisp may be too hard to pass up. However, this leaves you with DynamicPunch. If that's the case, Earthquake becomes the premier option, as in this way, Dusknoir will be able to hit practically everything, bar Shedinja (whom would easily fall prey to 100% accurate Will-O-Wisp). Be sure to move 28 Defense EVs to Attack to score some key OHKOs and 2HKOs on certain Pokemon, such as Heatran and Chandelure.</p>

    <p>This set appreciates the use of entry hazards, such as Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Since all foes will be grounded thanks to Gravity, Dusknoir can further weaken them with DynamicPunch, causing confusion, or proceed to weaken them with Earthquake. As such, great partners for this set include Ferrothorn, as it can take Ghost- and Dark- attacks aimed at Dusknoir and proceed to set up Spikes. Earthquake users such as Excadrill appreciate Gravity, ensuring that their STAB moves will always hit.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Calm Mind set is not out of the question; a 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD EV Spread with a Bold nature and a moveset of Calm Mind, Pain Split, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fighting gives great all-round coverage. Of course, Spiritomb, Chandelure, and Cofagrigus make better use of Calm Mind due to their higher base Special Attack, but Dusknoir can effectively wall both physical and special attacks after a Calm Mind or two. The other notable advantages Dusknoir has is access to Ice Beam and Blizzard. Trick Room on a defensive Dusknoir is largely outclassed by Eviolite Dusclops, who can come in multiple times to set it up thanks to Eviolite. The only advantage Dusknoir has over Dusclops is healing through Leftovers. Offensive Dusknoir can make use of it, but the power output of such a set is lacking.</p>

    <p>As mentioned earlier, Dusknoir has many supporting moves, such as Destiny Bond, Grudge, and Skill Swap. Destiny Bond can force switches if your opponent fears KOing Dusknoir which in the process takes out their own Pokemon. Grudge depletes the PP of an opponent's move if Dusknoir is knocked out; however, Dusknoir is very slow to fully utilize it and it also comes at the cost of Dusknoir's life. Finally, Skill Swap deserves some mention, in the fact that it can rob an opponent of an important ability, so long as it stays in.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Taunt has been the bane to most Dusknoir; shutting off the ability to use a status move or heal is a detriment to most walls, and Dusknoir is no exception. However, if one desires a more straightforward approach to eliminating Dusknoir, Conkeldurr is the primary candidate. Conkledurr adores being burned, and Dusknoir can do very little back, especially after a Bulk Up. If Chandelure comes in on a predicted Will-O-Wisp, it will win outright against most sets. Beware of Earthquake though, especially if it comes from a rare Choice Band set, which will OHKO.</p>

    <p>In terms of defensive Pokemon, Spiritomb tops the list, having nothing to fear from Dusknoir, bar a status move. Next, Blissey and Eviolite Chansey have no fear of Dusknoir's chosen status move and takes minimal damage from most attacks, outside of Focus Punch. Finally, as a wall, Dusknoir greatly fears Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. The former increasingly damages Dusknoir turn after turn; the latter damages it consistently but also cuts its Attack. Meanwhile Dusknoir will struggle to keep up its health outside of the risky Rest, which makes it setup fodder for powerful sweepers.</p>
  2. IcyMan28

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    Evolution Stone gives Dusclops a 50% boost to defenses.
  3. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  4. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    Seriously? 30%? Where was it proven?
  5. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
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    That OP you linked to is horribly outdated, last time it was edited was on September 24, 2010. In this post, Wichu retracts his statement and says that it grants all NFEs a 50% boost http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3015398&postcount=57 regardless of whether they are a middle stage evolution. It's on the same thread you're linking to. Also, you will find the same is mentioned in the BW Research Thread.
  6. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Oops...looks like I never caught it then. Updating that post now.

    Edit: Skeleton is complete, awaiting QC approval...and some opinions.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Um, wow. Please add the SubPunching set and put it over Gravity. It was one of my favorite sets to use in 4th gen and it's still very much viable now. Dusknoir is one of the best spinblockers for keeping offensive momentum, as he can both check and set up on really anything with Rapid Spin, then screw over any offensive mon that tries to come in on him. Heatran and Ttar are notable examples.
  8. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    I was debating that, but wouldn't Golurk be better at it, due to its ability, sturdier Substitutes, and better attack? What advantages would Dusknoir have in using a SubPunch set?
  9. SJCrew

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    Golurk's defensive typing is garbage. Every time I try to use him, it just doesn't work out; he can't set up on Nattorei, scare off Starmie, Gengar, etc. They'll attack him for the 1 or 2-hit KO. Dusk being solo Ghost with Shadow Sneak and the elemental punches means you get to choose what he gets walled by or what you want him to check, and he can finish off missed KOs with priority.

    I mean, I really didn't even need to go further than "sets up on Nattorei" and "checks Starmie and Gengar", but consider Golurk's five weaknesses to Dusknoir's two, and lack of a movepool to compensate. This stuff actually plays out in practice.
  10. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    I'll explore the option once again. As of this moment, I do have the mention of SubPunching in the OC section. But you do point out some obvious pluses Dusknoir has for using the set.
  11. iDunno

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    Dusknoir has 45 base speed. Think about that for a second.
  12. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    *Shoots self*

    That's what I get for despising Whimsicott so much...fixed that point.
  13. SJCrew

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    Any word on that SubPunch set?
  14. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Ok, so I've run some damage calculations on both sets...

    Dusknoir (SubPunch set: Adamant 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD)

    Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 59.1% - 69.9%
    Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 59.1% - 70.5%
    Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 78.6% - 93.9%
    Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 52.7% - 62.6%
    Sucker Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 69.5% - 82.4%
    Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 103.1% - 122.1%
    Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 69.5% - 82.4%
    Sucker Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 92.4% - 109.2%

    Golurk (SubPunch set: Adamant 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD)

    Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 68.2% - 80.7%
    Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 91.6% - 108.4%
    Shadow Punch vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Gengar = 121.4% - 142.7%
    Earthquake vs 252 HP / 48 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn = 34.1% - 40.3% (lol...)
    Earthquake vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Starmie = 76% - 89.7%

    In terms of power, Golurk beats most of its switch ins better than Dusknoir, outright OHKO'ing them with a similar moveset. You should note one thing too...Ferrothorn can still break Dusknoir's Substitute with Power Whip. Of course, you'll still fire off Focus Punch, but Steel Thorns will still cause pain, plus Fire Punch if you follow up with that. As it stands, I think I'll leave it as an OC option (unless you can bring up more evidence in that it merits a set in the analysis), but I'll mention that the Elemental Punches give it an opportunity to shine.
  15. Iconic

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    I don't see why I'd ever use Choice Band Dusknoir when Golurk is hitting way harder and has STAB Earthquake to work with. Fire Punch is nice and all but Golurk is going to win against Ferrothorn anyways with Hammer Arm. I think it the Choice Band set would be better suited in Optional Changes. You're also going to have to specify what the 28 Attack EVs do on the Tank set or else it might cause a bit of confusion to readers. Other than that it looks good, but just continue to stress why someone would want to use Dusknoir over Dusclops.

    QC Approved 1/3
  16. ParaChomp

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    More power. More HP recovery through Wish, Leftovers, Aqua Ring, Ingrain. More speed (I know, this it's awful but Dusknoir's speed is higher than Dusclops').
  17. religiousjedi

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    Well, there is one advantage (aside from elemental punches): Trick. Great way to ruin certain Pokemon.

    I'll also be sure to make mention on those 28 Atk EVs in the Tank set.
  18. ParaChomp

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    Dusclops learns Trick too but I assume it's because Dusknoir can actually use a Choice Band set.
  19. SJCrew

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    Okay, I really don't think you paid attention to anything I said, nor did you actually test the set. Dusknoir is good for bulk spinblocking and keeping momentum on offensive teams. The best set to do that is SubPunch because it's harder to wall and can beat most Spinners 1-on-1.

    Golurk can't do this because he has no priority and is walled really hard by most physical walls. Dusknoir can at least burn them with Will-o-Wisp and keep wailing at them with attacks. That Nattorei we mentioned earlier is not going to stay in, knowing it'll get burned, or will try to Leech Seed. Sub handles both instances. Even if some genius decides it's a better idea to keep hitting him with Power Whip, Will-o-Wisp will punish him for trying, and I'm definitely getting my Sub after that. Golurk just plain can't beat it.

    Now, obviously, you can't run Sub/Sneak/Fpunch/WoW-Tpunch-Ice Punch, but you only really need to decide between Ice Punch and WoW. Both are pretty good. Run Ice Punch if you want to get past Gliscor (3HKO if it's max Def, but that's better than anything Golurk is doing to it) and hurt the Dragons without having to set up Sub (Garchomp and Salamence, mostly).

    Saying Golurk outclasses this, is a huge, huge stretch and it's hardly any reason to keep other players from recognizing that this is one of Dusknoir's most viable sets. Dusclops took Tank away from him for the most part, but Golurk definitely didn't take SubPunching away from him. Both of them can do it, but with different strengths, so both of them can have it on-site.
  20. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    I didn't say I wouldn't consider it. I said I needed more evidence that it warrants an analysis. This is exactly the type of thing I needed.

    The reason Tank still made it is because Dusknoir has something Dusclops doesn't: feasible Attack. Even without much investment, the EVs and attacks Tank has enough power to KO the more probable switch-ins, Heatran and Chandelure.

    Though Choice Band is somewhat better on Golurk, Dusknoir has access to Trick and the Elemental Punches, making such a set feasible.

    I still stand by what I say, in terms of power, Golurk outclasses the SubPunch set, but as you just made more clear, Dusknoir still has the technicalities to make the set work for itself.
  21. PK Gaming

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    Choice Band set has way to many slashes. Many of the move slashes are pretty dubious. Choiced Focus Punch is absolutely terrible, and non-stabbed Sucker Punch is pitiful. Yes I am aware that it outdamages Shadow Sneak, but its more reliable and only 20BP weaker.

    Consider this set:
    Name: Choice Band
    Move 1: Earthquake
    Move 2: Shadow Sneak
    Move 3: Fire Punch / Ice Punch
    Move 4: Trick

    Remove Focus Punch on the offensive trick room set, you're never going to pull it off. Again, the gravity set is too slashy. Just slash WoW once alongside Shadow Sneak.
    Implement the changes and you can consider this stamped.

    Edit:

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  22. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi #ZELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Changes implemented per request
  23. iDunno

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    The SubPunch set is way more useful than these other sets in my opinion. It's a great spinblocker and can beat many spinners that golurk has no chance of beating. DUSKNOIR HAS GOOD DEFENSES GOLURK DOES NOT.

    [SET]
    move1: Focus Punch
    move2: Shadow Sneak
    move3: Substitute
    move4: Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Will-o-wisp
    Item: Leftovers
    Evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

    Wish support is helpful
    Can beat common spinners
    Golurk cannot beat any spinners since it is weak to all of their stab and doesnt have priority
    SHADOWSNEAK IS THE ONLY REASON TO USE THIS
  24. Buzzcut

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    I just tried this set out (I assumed an Adamant nature) and this is just a beast. I'm not QC or anything, but this set deserves serious consideration to be put on-site IMO.
  25. religiousjedi

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    Many people keep asking, so I'll most likely put up the analysis. The only question remaining is what order should it go by?

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