Embirch and Flarelm - Part 4 - Stat Submissions

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Robot from the Future
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Now that Embirch and Flarelm have Abilities, we are going to move onto discussing Stats. Once this is done I will move into Art and Movepools for both. Now, as I said in the Overview Thread, Embirch and Flarelm have never had serious Stats put forward for them. I'd like to stick to a fairly similar build as Pyroak but I will be interested to hear arguments for all sorts of different spreads. Please remember Pyroak has the following stats:
120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60
I am fully expecting a number of spreads to have higher Base Speeds which drop upon evolution.

If there are any additional questions about Stat spreads, do not hesitate to ask on #CaP. There will be people there far more qualified than me to answer any questions you may be having. Unlike CaP proper, we do not worry about anything like BSR here, but please make sure your BST's and spreads make sense. Currently, I am expecting discussions and final submissions here. Whether you submit a pair of spreads or just one, it doesn't bother me at this stage. But please make sure you state which spreads you are submitting. This will be done by stating Final Submission in your post. Please also add some reasoning (either via basing it on other Pokémon, or just from a mathematical point of view) to your post so I can take it into consideration.

For Little Cup stat junkies (This will be for Embirch)
*Shamelessly stolen from Birkal's thread*

For the record, this is stolen from the previous CAP pre-evo thread (which kidnapped it from the preceding thread).

For reference, these are the neutral-nature thresholds at which a level 5 Pokemon reaches a higher stat. On the left is the raw stat hit and on the right is the base stat used to achieve that new threshold. Note that for different base stats, the EV requirements to hit higher stat thresholds are different. I don't care if your stat spread makes Syclar terrible or excellent in the Little Cup metagame; just make sure there is some reasoning behind your suggested spreads.

17: 5 (Minimum)
18: 15
19: 25
20: 35
21: 45
22: 55
23: 65
24: 75
25: 85
26: 95
27: 105
28: 115
29: 125
30: 135

7: 5 (Minimum)
8: 15
9: 25
10: 35
11: 45
12: 55
13: 65
14: 75
15: 85
16: 95
17: 105
18: 115
19: 125
20: 135

NOTE: These base stats all require 236 EVs to get +3.

Like I mentioned, consider a base Attack stat of 75. This results in 14 Attack for a level 5 pre-evo, with 236 Atk EVs needed to hit 17. A base Attack stat of 80, on the other hand, still starts at 14 Attack, but requires only 196 Atk EVs to hit 17. If we extend this further, you notice that the base Attack stat of 85 results in a flat 15 Attack. It takes 156 Atk EVs to raise that stat to 17. See how this trend works? Every 5 point increment of a base Stat requires 40 fewer EVs to hit the same effective stat. This is important to keep in mind, because the fewer EVs it takes to hit a desired stat, the more EVs can be invested elsewhere. If you choose weird non-divisible-by-5 base Stat numbers, the rule above still applies, it just isn't going from 236>196>156 anymore, it's somewhere in-between.

This thread will be open for about 48 hours. I'll have a chat with Birkal about the poll system tomorrow and this time may get extended if people are still editing their spreads.

What we have so far:

Names: Embirch and Flarelm
Type: Fire/Grass & Fire/Grass
Abilities: Reckless / Leaf Guard & Rock Head / Battle Armor



Here's my Final Submission:

Flarelm - Fire/Grass - 80 / 50 / 75 / 70 / 55 / 90

Base stats: 420 total.

•HP: 80 (270 - 364)
-Unboosted: 301
•Atk: 50 (94 - 218)
-Unboosted: 136
-Max +1 (Growth): 327
-Max +2 (Swords Dance, sunlit Growth): 436
•Def: 75 (139 - 273) (208 - 409 with Eviolite)
-Unboosted: 186 (279 with Eviolite)
-Max +2 (Iron Defense): 546
-Max Eviolite +2 (Iron Defense): whopping 818...
•SpA: 70 (130 - 262)
-Unboosted: 176
-Max +1 (Growth): 393
-Max +2 (sunlit Growth): 524
•SpD: 55 (103 - 229) (154 - 343 with Eviolite)
-Unboosted: 146 (219 with Eviolite)
•Spe: 90 (166 - 306)
-Unboosted: 216

•420 BST: nearly parallel to Grovyle's and Sceptile's BST relationship: 125 BST drop from Sceptile to Grovyle; 540 (Pyroak) - 420 (Flarelm) = 120 BST drop.
•50 Atk / 70 SpA: simple 20 / 25-point drops.
•80 HP / 75 Def / 55 SpD: heavy 40 / 30 / 35-point drops to compensate for increasing the Spe stat. Flarelm's armor is still somewhat weak and developing. The 40-point drop in HP because Flarelm doesn't have the body mass to merit a much higher number.
•90 Spe: 30-point increase from Pyroak's 60 Spe. Still very mobile because the wood armor is not yet bulky enough to impede its movement.

*Unboosted - Neutral nature, 31 IV, no EVs.

Embirch - Fire/Grass - 65 / 40 / 35 / 60 / 30 / 95

Base stats: 325 total.

•HP: 65 (21 - 26)
-Unboosted: 23
•Atk: 40 (9 - 14)
-Unboosted: 11
-Max +1 (Growth): 21
-Max +2 (Swords Dance, sunlit Growth): 28
•Def: 35 (8 - 13) (12 - 19 with Eviolite)
-Unboosted: 10 (15 with Eviolite)
-Max +2 (Iron Defense): 26
-Max Eviolite +2 (Iron Defense): 38
•SpA: 60 (11 - 16)
-Unboosted: 13
-Max +1 (Growth): 24
-Max +2 (sunlit Growth): 36
•SpD: 30 (8 - 13) (12 - 19 with Eviolite)
-Unboosted: 10 (15 with Eviolite)
•Spe: 95 (14 - 19)
-Unboosted: 16

•325 BST: again, sticking with the Sceptile family, Embirch's and Flarelm's base stat totals have the same relationship with each other as Treecko's and Grovyle's: 405 (Grovyle) - 310 (Treecko) = 95 BST drop. Likewise, 420 (Flarelm) - 325 (Embirch) = 95 BST drop.
•40 Atk / 60 SpA: small 10-point drops on the offensive stats.
•65 HP / 35 Def / 30 SpD: sharp 40-point drop on Def, as Embirch has no armor to shield his body from physical attacks. Small 15-point drop on SpD for convenience.
•95 Spe: minimal 5-point increase in Spe. Embirch is only slightly more agile than Flarelm.

*Unboosted - Neutral nature, 31 IV, no EVs.

Pyroak - 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60 - 540
Flarelm - 80 / 50 / 75 / 70 / 55 / 90 - 420
Embirch - 65 / 40 / 35 / 60 / 30 / 95 - 325

As you can see, I intended to make both pre-evolutions at least slightly competitively viable (I wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't). I only calculated Embirch's stats at Little Cup Level 5. I'm not very good with base stats and stuff, so if anyone sees any problems with my calculations, I implore you to point it out to me, please.


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Just because I can... WIP

120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60 - adds up to 540. Of the 3 stage things at 540, the only one without a baby pokemon, and I don't view Embirch as a baby pokemon, is the Horsea line, so I'm basing my stat changes off of that, sort of, except stronger because CAP and why not? Who doesn't want more viable things?

95 / 60 / 90 / 70 / 75 / 70 - 460


60 / 45 / 60 / 50 / 60 / 55 - 320

Embirch: 50 | 40 | 60 | 55 | 30 | 77 | 312
Flarelm : 80 | 45 | 80 | 75 | 55 | 70 | 405

BSTs based on average BST of Grass and Fire starters.
Since I most likely will have much more important stuff to do, Final submission:

Embirch: 60/45/45/40/40/70 : 300
Flarelm: 90/60/70/65/70/65 : 420
I started with some comparison with somewhat similar lines, mostly Axew and Treecko, and went with a total 120 increase with each evolution. The defensive stats grow faster than the offensive ones to symbolize the armor's growth, which also leads to the slight decrease in speed (Treecko is also a base 70 and looks even nimbler than Embirch, so I didn't want to make it very fast).


Banned deucer.
This is my: Final Submission:

65/50/75/50/85/55 BST:380

100/65/85/45/95/55 BST:445

Basicly Made them into TANKS the stats are based of Pyroak as you can see:they have atrocious speed,decent attack(assuming sd is in its movepool eventualy),nice bulk,and a special attack that is almost unusable,and amazing Hp as you can see they get bulkier when they evolve(the pyroak line).


Robot from the Future
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Oiawsome, Your Special Defence is way too high for both Pokémon (assuming you are listing HP/Att/Def/Spcl Att/Spcl Def/Spe). Pyroak's is only 90, your Flarelm is actually ahead of Pyroak in terms of that stat. Everyone else, your stats look okay to me at the moment... If anything does become obvious then I will let you guys know.


used substitute
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Eh, why not. Final Submission

Flarelm: 90/50/95/75/70/40 420 BST
Embirch: 60/40/55/65/40/60 320 BST

Looking at this family, while there are great differences between Embirch and the others, Flarelm really just looks like a less matured Pyroak. As such, in classic Pokemon fashion, I decided that Flarelm should have a similar spread to Pyroak, just scaled back.

If you remember back in the first thread for these two, I brought up the Walrein family for comparison. Now it turns out I was an idiot and didn't notice that Pyroak's HP was 10 higher, and thus its BST as well, but overall, they are quite similar statistically. And since Sealeo is statistically just a scaled back Walrein, I decided to use that as a base. For Sealeo, its stats are literally just Walrein's stats but 20 less in each stat. So, I started off by doing the same here. However, 100 HP seemed too much to me. HP is classically related to mass, and while Flarelm looks like its armor is almost fully developed, its body size does not, so I thought it would be more appropriate for its physical defense to be a bit higher, and HP a bit lower. Otherwise though, I think following the Sealeo model worked very well.

Embirch is a bit more tricky. Unlike Flarelm, Embirch is not just a scaled back version of its evolution. It lacks armor, and thus looks physically more vulnerable, but at the same time looks more agile. The issue of speed actually reminded me of the Flygon family when it comes to attack. In that family, neither Trapinch nor Flygon look particularly strong, but both look more powerful than Vibrava, and its stats reflect this, with Trapinch and Flygon having the same attack stat, with Vibrava being weaker. I felt that while Flarelm would just be the all around weaker Pyroak, and thus slower, Embirch seemed faster than Flarelm, without actually appearing fast itself, and as such it would be cool to give it the same stat as its final form. As for the other stats, Embirch obviously is very much underdeveloped in comparison to its evolution. However, offensively the two look very similar. As such, I decided to only scale back the offensive stats by 10 each, while taking 20 from each defense. However, since it was getting 20 back to speed, I wanted to weaken the defenses even more, so I took 10 more from HP, so that it gains 30 at both evolutions, and 20 more from Def, because that is much more clearly underdeveloped than the SpD, which put its BST exactly 100 below its evolution.
Sorry for the similarities to Jas's post, both he and I had the same idea..

Flarelm: 90/45/90/80/70/45 BST: 420
Embirch: 55/35/50/60/40/65 BST: 300

Darn it, jas has basically explained what I was going to explain...

Embirch definitely looks faster. I even gave him a speed stat above Pyroak, since Embirch looks nimble and Pyroak looks sluggish.

Really though, since Jas had his same idea down first, I'll be supporting Jas more than myself.

Engineer Pikachu

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Embirch: 40 / 50 / 45 / 65 / 40 / 70
Flarelm: 85 / 55 / 85 / 75 / 75 / 50


For comparison, I'll list Pyroak's stats below as well.

Embirch: 40 HP / 50 Atk / 45 Def / 65 SpA / 40 SpD / 70 Spe | BST 310
Flarelm: 85 HP / 55 Atk / 85 Def / 75 SpA / 75 SpD / 50 Spe | BST 425
Pyroak: 120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe | BST 540

The first thing to note is that only one of the stat progressions are linear, despite the BST following an arithmetic sequence. This is intentional; since the flavor and visual aspect of the Pyroak evolutionary line doesn't follow a very smooth pattern, I decided to reflect that. The Speed growth pattern of -20, +10 is taken from the Eelektross family, which I felt accurately depicted the concept of bulking up and becoming slower with the addition of the body armor on Flarelm.

Embirch's stat spread exemplifies a lighter, more nimble, and carefree Pokemon, based somewhat off of Chimchar. Its Speed stat is in the decently fast range, and while it won't be racing alongside even Staryu it can still outpace a good deal. From its sprite, it doesn't seem to be very physically able, especially with the shorter arms, so I decided to give it a smaller Attack stat; to make up for that, I increased its Special Attack stat. Defensively, 40 / 45 / 40 puts it with the other LC Pokemon with its BST, and reflects the more frail nature of Embirch.

Flarelm represents a sudden shift in anatomy; the previously light and nimble body is replaced by a bulkier, more defensive body. Its Speed is suddenly lowered to below that of Pyroak's, portraying the concept of being unaccustomed to the sudden increase in weight, and while its offenses do increase, as should be expected from an evolution, they don't increase by a significant amount. Flarelm jumps defensively, however, a testament to its new armor, seen mostly in its physical defense and HP.

Finally, once it evolves into Pyroak, we see a minor increase in all stats across the board, representing that Flarelm is essentially a smaller, weaker version of Pyroak.


Robot from the Future
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Yeah, Engineer Pikachu, Your Embirch has 2 different speed stats. I am assuming you meant the 70 over the 60...

I think I'm going to extend this by another 24 hours. CaP proper has kinda overshadowed Stat subs for us!
Final Submission

Embirch: 50/60/45/50/40/95 - 340
Flarem: 80/65/85/70/75/75 - 450

With Reckless as Embirch's ability espeically, I see the addition of the cannons and armour as means for high increase in defenses and special attacks, and obviously lowering of speed. I made this Embirch with significantly better attack than most, seeing that it doesn't seem to gain much that would affect this in its physical being of evolution, and I wanted it to feel different from it's evolutions.

Flarem on the other hand, screams "jack of all trades, master of none" in design. It just looks like a balanced Pokemon, and I made it that way relative to differences between Embirch and Pyro. He can really clutch on any stat he needs to, which I think comes across well as a Grass/Fire Midevo (mostgrass mids being defensively based and fires being offensively based).
Final Submission

Flarelm: 90/45/90/80/70/45 BST: 420
Embirch: 55/35/50/60/40/65 BST: 300

Basic explanation; Flarelm is a toned down version of Pyroak, whilst Embirch has completely different stats, meaning defence and special defence is lower, and speed is higher. This is because in my opinion (and jas's opinion) Embirch looks nimble, but has little defense due to no armour.

If you like both Jas's spread and mine, (as long as Jas posts a final submission) please vote Jas's in a higher rank, as he had the same idea as me and put his idea forward first.


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New one

Final Submission

Embirch: 80 / 60 / 45 / 25 / 30 / 80 BST 330
Flarelm: 100 / 80 / 55 / 60 / 35 / 105 BST 435

For reference: Pyroak: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60 BST 540

These spreads are based around a few things:

- I tried to make the stats progressive in a sense, or rather, that Pyroak's build is an accurate reflection of its stats. As Embirch evolves to Flarelm and then to Pyroak, its HP, defensive stats, and Special Attack all increase. The HP stat is reflective of its increasing size (HP tends to increase as Pokemon increase in size), defensive stats of the increasing scale of the woody armour (culminating in Pyroak), and finally, the increasing Special Attack reflects the increasing size and complexity of the arm-cannons - when fully developed into Pyroak, it has its big SpA stat, but before then it's rather dismal.

- Flarelm's was the one I designed first. After my first attempt, I wanted this to be something of a Slaking-esque line, in that both Embirch and Pyroak are rather squat and fat, while Flarelm, by comparison, actually looks relatively agile and fast (I know Slaking is faster than Vigoroth - but here the stats exemplify this trend rather than ability). As such, it is designed along these lines - it is as fast as Scyther and Zoroark, but lacking in the offensive department. It has a high HP stat a la Pyroak, but since its armour is not fully developed yet, its defensive stats are low. I also imagine its armour being very light, to justify the whole ninja-like build. The HP, defensive stats, and Special Attack followed the pattern listed above, and as I just said, the high Speed reflects the way I see the design. I attempted to make the design of this similar to Zangoose, in the similar defensive capabilities (but with different distribution), and higher Speed in exchange for far lower Attack. Attack reflects the Zangoose-style build I tried to exemplify - slightly higher than Pyroak's, as Pyroak relies more on its arm cannons to deal damage than the much more agile and therefore mobile Flarelm, who has to rely on its physical strength. Note also that the huge drop in Speed is reminiscent of the Scyther -> Scizor relationship, as per becoming bulkier and stronger at the expense of movement.

- Embirch really follows on from Flarelm. Originally I had it being ridiculously fast, but it's quite squat and diddy when you look at the sprite. It still looks like it could be quite nimble on its feet though (just not as much as Flarelm), so it's quite a bit faster than Pyroak, or rather, the same Speed as Dragonite and just a bit slower than Gyarados, which I think is about right. Everything else follows on logically - lower Atk, lower HP, lower Def/SpD, lower SpA. Essentially it is just a miniature version of Flarelm.
Final Submission
Embirch: 50 | 40 | 60 | 55 | 30 | 77 | 312
Flarelm : 80 | 45 | 80 | 75 | 55 | 70 | 405

BSTs based on the average BST of first stage and second stage, respectively, fire and grass starters.

The rest of the stats are my flavor perspective. As Embirch evolves it appears to gain more "firearms" and "armor". I feel that would slow it down as it increases. Of course, I tried to keep the distribution in line with Pyroak. I do not see why it should start out as a physical mon then end up a special mon.
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