Enchanted Items [Now Multibility]

This Pokemon's Attack is raised by 2 for each of its stats that is lowered by a foe.
Well, speed boost does not lower any stats so the abilities don't interact.
Weak Armor triggers defiant though, so you can get a bisharp to +2atk, +1 speed, -1 defense by switching into a physical attack.

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About Banaphy:
I'm going to do some more teambuilding before coming to a final decision on Manaphy. For now, all I can say is that Clefable is not a good answer to Primordial Sea Manaphy (see reasoning below). Unaware Blissey can somewhat work, but is a very passive set and lackluster in general.
There is also Mold Breaker Manaphy, which gets past Water Absorb and Unaware users but lacks the staying power and ability to set up on almost anything.

Steel types with Desolate Land are able to switch into any of Manaphy's coverage options bar HP Ground and can be brought out healthy with a wish pass from Blissey while Manaphy is out. (They also don't fear Mold Breaker.) Heatran with Solar Beam and Magnezone are able to force Manaphy out.
Note that Both Tran and Magnezone can potentially be trapped by Magnet Pull Infernape, which could be a good partner for Manaphy. Also, Dugtrio could run Arena Trap combined with another ability that lets it come in safely (since only the held version is banned.)

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%)
252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%)
It can take almost 50% and will have to softboil many times before it gets to cm. Passing it a wish from Blissey lets you cm immediately without risking so many crits, but a surf as you cm and then a crit surf will still ko it. Also, Clefable is easy to switch into and scare out with t-wave while manaphy outlasts it in tems of pp.
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/enchanteditems-396408046
On turn 10 my imposter Ditto (Sableye) uses confuse ray against the opposing Sableye and gets bounced back, yet his confuse ray doesn't bounce off of my sableye, and he claims his sableye doesn't even have magic bounce o_O anyone know whats going on?
★I like donkeys: bug alert?
★X4mKr4d: No Magic Bounce
He was saying "No, not a bug. It's magic bounce".

Impostor does not copy items, which is why even though sableye is granted magic bounce from its Smooth Rock, Ditto does not receive it.
 

Martin

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My current team has no trouble with Manaphy at all. Given how insanely good both Desolate Land Raikou and Desolate Land Heatran are and the fact that they both just kinda dump on Manaphy it is pretty easy to deal with in general for a well-built offensive squad.

As for defensive/balanced teams, they have plenty of methods of dealing with it well; just off of the top of my head things that can handle it on defenisive teams include CM+BoltBeam Blissey (which is able to come in on it and use it for setup bait on semistall and it isn't even like it's difficult to stay healthy enough to take it on when pivoting through stuff due to Regenerator being insanely good), Qualot Suicune, specially bulky Water Absorb/Desolate Land 'mons which aren't beaten by Ice Beam/Energy Ball/Psychic (these aren't hard to come by either, with Heatran being the most obvious example), Ferrothorn (has an all-around easy time taking it on due to it's typing+Regen), Qualot+CM Clefable and SpD Qualot cleric Clefable--among other things.

Basically what I'm saying is that I don't see Manaphy as a particularly restrictive force in the meta to the point where it is banworthy, and given that a: offense is the best/most consistent playstyle in this meta and b: that defensive and balanced teams have a plethora of options to handle it, I don't see it as problematic at all.
 
Have you played this meta? There's stuff faster than Weavile literally everywhere. Mainly weather sweepers. Sand Rush+Sand Stream Tyranitar / Excadrill, Desolate Land+Chlorophyll Venusaur / Victreebel, Swift Swim / Primordial Sea Kingdra / Kabutops / Ludicolo / you name it. Apparently somebody's using Chlorophyll Ninetales although I'm pretty skeptical about that set in this meta given the prevalence of the "harsh" weathers. But yeah. Even discounting Speed Boost and dragon dancers, Weavile is outsped routinely.
Most of them can't switch into Weavile, and most of them lack the longevity to appreciate having to tank a Fake Out before it switches. Venusaur and Victreebel can both recover decently, but they're outright weak to Ice.

They can revenge into it, of course, but that's less than ideal.

My current team has no trouble with Manaphy at all. Given how insanely good both Desolate Land Raikou and Desolate Land Heatran are and the fact that they both just kinda dump on Manaphy it is pretty easy to deal with in general for a well-built offensive squad.

As for defensive/balanced teams, they have plenty of methods of dealing with it well; just off of the top of my head things that can handle it on defenisive teams include CM+BoltBeam Blissey (which is able to come in on it and use it for setup bait on semistall and it isn't even like it's difficult to stay healthy enough to take it on when pivoting through stuff due to Regenerator being insanely good), Qualot Suicune, specially bulky Water Absorb/Desolate Land 'mons which aren't beaten by Ice Beam/Energy Ball/Psychic (these aren't hard to come by either, with Heatran being the most obvious example), Ferrothorn (has an all-around easy time taking it on due to it's typing+Regen), Qualot+CM Clefable and SpD Qualot cleric Clefable--among other things.

Basically what I'm saying is that I don't see Manaphy as a particularly restrictive force in the meta to the point where it is banworthy, and given that a: offense is the best/most consistent playstyle in this meta and b: that defensive and balanced teams have a plethora of options to handle it, I don't see it as problematic at all.
Specially bulky Ferrothorn can't OHKO Manaphy with Power Whip.

4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after poison damage

(Poison is simulating Leech Seed damage)

Manaphy can literally just Rest stall Ferrothorn and Tail Glow up to murder it.

252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Bulky Manaphy vs Adamant attacking Ferrothorn is actually at risk of being KOed, even without Leech Seed, but repeatedly switching into Scald is going to get it Burned at some point, and then Manaphy can go back to Rest stalling it, which takes no time at all since Power Whip only has 8 PP anyway.

Ferrothorn is a dubious check to Manaphy.

Unaware Suicune takes up to 40% (Assuming Physically Defensive) damage from Energy Ball, and can't really do anything to hit back until it's significantly set up. If it switches into Energy Ball, it has to immediately Rest and then hope it gets lucky with Sleep Talk -and that Manaphy doesn't get lucky with Special Defense drops. Also, it can't really do jack to Manaphy anyway.

+6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO

If Manaphy is instead bulky it can't even be 2HKOed at +6. (And hoping for a Burn is futile because Hydration will instantly clear it) This means it can literally Rest stall through all of Suicune's Scald PP -and Sleep Talk is not going to optimize PP usage. You're going to see Scalds being wasted early on, before you're substantially boosted, which means even non-bulky Manaphy may well be able to Rest stall Suicune.

Clefable being a shaky check to Manaphy was already addressed by someone else before you posted.

Desolate Land-based checks run into the issue that Manaphy can then switch back in to clear your weather and gain the ability to nuke you, and usually suffer more from Stealth Rock than Manaphy does, whether from actual vulnerability (eg Chandelure) or from a complete lack of recovery. (eg Heatran) Water Absorb is more stable, and prediction can even make up for a lack of recovery, but they're still shaky -I'm using Water Absorb Heatran and it's just not that effective. (It's Specially Defensive and it takes 40% from +6 Psychic) Desolate Land Raikou is a solid stop to it -for an offense team.

Calm Mind boltbeam Blissey works, yes, though even then...

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 627-738 (96.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

... if Manaphy gets one crit anywhere in there, Blissey is dead if it's not Unaware.

None of those is really a stable stall check to Manaphy.

I also dispute the claim that offense is the best/most consistent playstyle. My own experience is that stall is a lot more stable, just like it is in most metas, you know, except for Manaphy existing.

EDIT:

EI rank.PNG

Confirming I reached top 15 on ladder. I'll probably climb higher later, but whatever: I didn't want to reach #1, then fall to sixteen before I remembered to take a screenshot.

I'm pro ban, and I've already covered the general shape of why: there are almost no answers on stall, the answers there are range from shaky to "lol not really", and it's not like Manaphy is useless against non-stall teams or something. Many proposed counters aren't actually counters at all, or Manaphy can simply outlast them until general chipping takes them out/puts them in a place where Manaphy can finish them while Manaphy remains pristine. Furthermore, some of the closest counters to being reliable are overly narrow/specialized at the job, with dubious viability against the rest of the meta. Most of the traditional checks to a setup sweeper like Manaphy don't work at all or are very shaky -it's difficult to find an Unaware 'mon, even with Unaware possible to freely pass around, that can actually shrug off Manaphy's Scald+one coverage move, it's too bulky for powerful priority options to necessarily revenge into it, most of the things that can outspeed it and grab a OHKO can't switch into it safely, phazing it out doesn't help that much when it can set up so easily and heal off repeated chipping damage effortlessly...

It's just not healthy to have a Pokemon in the meta that can only really be dealt with safely/at all if you can outspeed and OHKO it while being able to switch into any attack -especially since Scald's Burn chance means anything that isn't immune to Water or immune to Burn further constricts what options are viable at the task.
 
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Martin

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is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Specially bulky Ferrothorn can't OHKO Manaphy with Power Whip.

4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after poison damage

(Poison is simulating Leech Seed damage)

Manaphy can literally just Rest stall Ferrothorn and Tail Glow up to murder it.

252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Bulky Manaphy vs Adamant attacking Ferrothorn is actually at risk of being KOed, even without Leech Seed, but repeatedly switching into Scald is going to get it Burned at some point, and then Manaphy can go back to Rest stalling it, which takes no time at all since Power Whip only has 8 PP anyway.

Ferrothorn is a dubious check to Manaphy.

Unaware Suicune takes up to 40% (Assuming Physically Defensive) damage from Energy Ball, and can't really do anything to hit back until it's significantly set up. If it switches into Energy Ball, it has to immediately Rest and then hope it gets lucky with Sleep Talk -and that Manaphy doesn't get lucky with Special Defense drops. Also, it can't really do jack to Manaphy anyway.

+6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO

If Manaphy is instead bulky it can't even be 2HKOed at +6. (And hoping for a Burn is futile because Hydration will instantly clear it) This means it can literally Rest stall through all of Suicune's Scald PP -and Sleep Talk is not going to optimize PP usage. You're going to see Scalds being wasted early on, before you're substantially boosted, which means even non-bulky Manaphy may well be able to Rest stall Suicune.

Clefable being a shaky check to Manaphy was already addressed by someone else before you posted.

Desolate Land-based checks run into the issue that Manaphy can then switch back in to clear your weather and gain the ability to nuke you, and usually suffer more from Stealth Rock than Manaphy does, whether from actual vulnerability (eg Chandelure) or from a complete lack of recovery. (eg Heatran) Water Absorb is more stable, and prediction can even make up for a lack of recovery, but they're still shaky -I'm using Water Absorb Heatran and it's just not that effective. (It's Specially Defensive and it takes 40% from +6 Psychic) Desolate Land Raikou is a solid stop to it -for an offense team.

Calm Mind boltbeam Blissey works, yes, though even then...

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 627-738 (96.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

... if Manaphy gets one crit anywhere in there, Blissey is dead if it's not Unaware.

None of those is really a stable stall check to Manaphy.

I also dispute the claim that offense is the best/most consistent playstyle. My own experience is that stall is a lot more stable, just like it is in most metas, you know, except for Manaphy existing.
IDK how anyone can say that Clefable is a "shaky check" when you consider that after even 1 CM Qualot Clefable just doesn't get broken by it (using the calc spread (not optimal but it illustrates my point): 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery; 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). It literally uses it for a free +6 and doesn't care about crits unless there are 2 in a row.

I'd give you Cune if it I were to look at it in a vaccuum, but generally speaking you are using it alongside something like Amoonguss which can take its Energy Balls with ease (and is coincidentally another good user of Qualot Berry who has the added benefit of being able to use Clear Smog alongside it to pivot in, remove it's boosts and pivot out again (as if you are using it alongside Suicune Thick Fat etc. become pretty redundant in general)), and you need to consider that if it has Energy Ball it either lacks Rest or it lacks coverage to hit is--making it unable to break through this.

Taking unnecessary risks like that with Blissey is a bit of a silly idea in general; you don't set up to +6 for the sake of setting up to +6, and your goal is achieved with a simple +2 if it has used Rest even once prior to that point (assuming max HP/Def, +6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO, +6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +2 252 HP / 0+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 229-271 (32 - 37.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO, +2 4 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Blissey is one of the hardest stops in the game to this and it isn't specifically used as a wincon like some other CM users are, meaning it doesn't need to worry too much about getting enough boosts to sweep.

Secondly, while Manaphy rests on Ferrothorn, the timings with which it uses said move are pretty obvious in general (you rest when you risk being KO'd by the second attack v.s. faster 'mons which you can't KO and you Rest on the last possible turn v.s. slower 'mons) and you also need to consider that some of Ferrothorn's best partners are coincidentally Desolate Land users--which replaces Primordial Sea, meaning that you can use your head a bit to leave Manaphy a sitting duck which is forced to either switch out or become bait for Ferrothorn's teammate. You aren't playing Ferrothorn to counter it outright, but rather you use it to pivot around it--which is made easier by Regenerator (no other abilities barring maybe Flash Fire/Primordial Sea are really worth using on this thing anyway imo) and to pressure it to rest; Ferrothorn isn't used to 1v1 it so much as it is used to pressure it early/mid game, which it does with ease.

If you look at members of these teams in a vacuum then of course they are going to struggle. However, you can't just do this because defensive teams are built around cores, and these cores have plenty of capability to beat manaphy where an individual 'mon loses on the basis that Manaphy can only carry 4 moves. If it uses one attack it can't run another, and if it forgos Rest it suddenly loses to other things that it's coverage can hit. This is what I think stops it from being broken in my eyes as any well-built team should naturally prepare for it like you would any other threat, and it's not even like it's hard to prep for either.

The reason that I say offense is much more consistent than balance/defense in the metagame has nothing to do with Manaphy. Hell, you can substitute Manaphy for something like Desolate Land+Magma Storm Heatran who also dumps on defensive teams due to it's disgusting power as well as a lot of other things. Offense is just more consistent because it is not reliant on taking a constant beating to function v.s. any remotely offensive team and because it has a lot more flexibility regarding how it is built, ranging from builds which approach balance to BO to outright balls-to-the-wall offense, and within those there are just such a huge array of options for builds and set variations due to the fact that you don't need to try and defensively stop the entire tier in six slots. If you are playing defense, you have balance and semistall; full stall gets heavily pressured to the point where they are ineffective, semistall is viable but is probably the worst of the "good" playstyles, and balance is nice for it's high flexibility and it's ability to better handle more aggressive builds due to it being more offensively inclined, but even then it still struggles relative to offense due to the fact that there are certain things which give it huge headaches due to the power of 'mons like Raikou, Tran and obviously Manaphy.
 
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IDK how anyone can say that Clefable is a "shaky check" when you consider that after even 1 CM Qualot Clefable just doesn't get broken by it (using the calc spread (not optimal but it illustrates my point): 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery; 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). It literally uses it for a free +6 and doesn't care about crits unless there are 2 in a row.
... Clefable is assumed to be switching in, and it doesn't outspeed Manaphy. If it takes a hit on the way in, it's then going to take another hit before it gets Calm Mind up. In practice it's going to need to Softboiled repeatedly before it's safe to put up Calm Mind, unless you're like Specially Defensive Clefable, because taking 40% twice in a row means the third hit will be lethal, full stop.

Why on earth are you assuming Clefable has a free +1 on Manaphy? It's not like Manaphy is going to switch into Clefable.

I'd give you Cune if it I were to look at it in a vaccuum, but generally speaking you are using it alongside something like Amoonguss which can take its Energy Balls with ease (and is coincidentally another good user of Qualot Berry who has the added benefit of being able to use Clear Smog alongside it to pivot in, remove it's boosts and pivot out again (as if you are using it alongside Suicune Thick Fat etc. become pretty redundant in general)), and you need to consider that if it has Energy Ball it either lacks Rest or it lacks coverage to hit is--making it unable to break through this.
So okay, you have a defensive core of Suicune+Amoonguss, which... does... what to Manaphy, exactly? If Amoonguss has no Special Attack investment at all, it can't even 2HKO Manaphy with Giga Drain -assuming fast Manaphy, no HP investment at all. Manaphy is free to smack it with Scald until it Burns, is free to set up a Tail Glow to pass the time and threaten switch-ins/force Amoonguss to re-use Clear Smog, etc.

So okay, you've got two Pokemon trying to stop Manaphy, and they're still not accomplishing anything except slow down its sweep.

Yeah, great check. Sure.

Taking unnecessary risks like that with Blissey is a bit of a silly idea in general; you don't set up to +6 for the sake of setting up to +6, and your goal is achieved with a simple +2 if it has used Rest even once prior to that point (assuming max HP/Def, +6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO, +6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +2 252 HP / 0+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 229-271 (32 - 37.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO, +2 4 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Blissey is one of the hardest stops in the game to this and it isn't specifically used as a wincon like some other CM users are, meaning it doesn't need to worry too much about getting enough boosts to sweep.
The crit point is just to drive home that even Blissey is a shaky check, and you're just reinforcing that point. Manaphy will reach +6 with Blissey at +1, at which point Manaphy rips off half of Blissey's health with no Burn or crit. Now Blissey has to recover a minimum of two times in a row before it can consider attacking or setting up further, which gives Manaphy a minimum of 4 attempts to fish for Burns/crits because it takes two Softboileds for Blissey to get to safety (Manaphy will usually get a Burn somewhere in there, on average, making things even worse), and Blissey retaliating with Thunderbolt isn't a OHKO so Blissey can't just kill Manaphy to try to end the healfest.

So Blissey being "one of the hardest stops to Manaphy"? If I take that seriously, you're effectively agreeing that are aren't any good counters to Manaphy.

Mind, Unaware Calm Mind Blissey can deal with it consistently -but I ran Unaware Blissey, and countering Manaphy is all it does. Pretty much everything else either can't break Blissey anyway, or can break Blissey anyway.

Secondly, while Manaphy rests on Ferrothorn, the timings with which it uses said move are pretty obvious in general (you rest when you risk being KO'd by the second attack v.s. faster 'mons which you can't KO and you Rest on the last possible turn v.s. slower 'mons) and you also need to consider that some of Ferrothorn's best partners are coincidentally Desolate Land users--which replaces Primordial Sea, meaning that you can use your head a bit to leave Manaphy a sitting duck which is forced to either switch out or become bait for Ferrothorn's teammate. You aren't playing Ferrothorn to counter it outright, but rather you use it to pivot around it--which is made easier by Regenerator (no other abilities barring maybe Flash Fire/Primordial Sea are really worth using on this thing anyway imo) and to pressure it to rest; Ferrothorn isn't used to 1v1 it so much as it is used to pressure it early/mid game, which it does with ease.
So we're back to "you need two 'mons to check Manaphy, and they don't really do anything to it at all anyway."

But it's not broken or overcentralizing. Somehow.

If you look at members of these teams in a vacuum then of course they are going to struggle. However, you can't just do this because defensive teams are built around cores, and these cores have plenty of capability to beat manaphy where an individual 'mon loses on the basis that Manaphy can only carry 4 moves. If it uses one attack it can't run another, and if it forgos Rest it suddenly loses to other things that it's coverage can hit. This is what I think stops it from being broken in my eyes as any well-built team should naturally prepare for it like you would any other threat, and it's not even like it's hard to prep for either.
Your "cores" don't beat Manaphy. They just take a while to die.

The reason that I say offense is much more consistent than balance/defense in the metagame has nothing to do with Manaphy. Hell, you can substitute Manaphy for something like Desolate Land+Magma Storm Heatran who also dumps on defensive teams due to it's disgusting power as well as a lot of other things. Offense is just more consistent because it is not reliant on taking a constant beating to function v.s. any remotely offensive team and because it has a lot more flexibility regarding how it is built, ranging from builds which approach balance to BO to outright balls-to-the-wall offense, and within those there are just such a huge array of options for builds and set variations due to the fact that you don't need to try and defensively stop the entire tier in six slots. If you are playing defense, you have balance and semistall; full stall gets heavily pressured to the point where they are ineffective, semistall is viable but is probably the worst of the "good" playstyles, and balance is nice for it's high flexibility and it's ability to better handle more aggressive builds due to it being more offensively inclined, but even then it still struggles relative to offense due to the fact that there are certain things which give it huge headaches due to the power of 'mons like Raikou, Tran and obviously Manaphy.
Desolate Land Heatran with Magma Storm is easily checked by Flashfire, Magic Guard, Primordial Sea... and it runs out of PP on Magma Storm in short order, gets worn down by hazards/general chipping, and is a dubious choice against offense teams. I've fought Desolate Land Magma Storm Heatran, and it's not really a threat -even though I don't have Magic Guard or Primordial Sea and my Flashfire 'mon is my own Heatran.

Raikou is a joke against stall. Regenerator Blissey switches into literally anything it does and laughs -even Volt Switch abuse does nothing to wear down Blissey, because Regenerator.

I'm starting to think you've never even tried to play stall in Enchanted Items. You certainly don't seem to understand how stall performs in Enchanted Items.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
... Clefable is assumed to be switching in, and it doesn't outspeed Manaphy. If it takes a hit on the way in, it's then going to take another hit before it gets Calm Mind up. In practice it's going to need to Softboiled repeatedly before it's safe to put up Calm Mind, unless you're like Specially Defensive Clefable, because taking 40% twice in a row means the third hit will be lethal, full stop.

Why on earth are you assuming Clefable has a free +1 on Manaphy? It's not like Manaphy is going to switch into Clefable.



So okay, you have a defensive core of Suicune+Amoonguss, which... does... what to Manaphy, exactly? If Amoonguss has no Special Attack investment at all, it can't even 2HKO Manaphy with Giga Drain -assuming fast Manaphy, no HP investment at all. Manaphy is free to smack it with Scald until it Burns, is free to set up a Tail Glow to pass the time and threaten switch-ins/force Amoonguss to re-use Clear Smog, etc.

So okay, you've got two Pokemon trying to stop Manaphy, and they're still not accomplishing anything except slow down its sweep.

Yeah, great check. Sure.



The crit point is just to drive home that even Blissey is a shaky check, and you're just reinforcing that point. Manaphy will reach +6 with Blissey at +1, at which point Manaphy rips off half of Blissey's health with no Burn or crit. Now Blissey has to recover a minimum of two times in a row before it can consider attacking or setting up further, which gives Manaphy a minimum of 4 attempts to fish for Burns/crits because it takes two Softboileds for Blissey to get to safety (Manaphy will usually get a Burn somewhere in there, on average, making things even worse), and Blissey retaliating with Thunderbolt isn't a OHKO so Blissey can't just kill Manaphy to try to end the healfest.

So Blissey being "one of the hardest stops to Manaphy"? If I take that seriously, you're effectively agreeing that are aren't any good counters to Manaphy.

Mind, Unaware Calm Mind Blissey can deal with it consistently -but I ran Unaware Blissey, and countering Manaphy is all it does. Pretty much everything else either can't break Blissey anyway, or can break Blissey anyway.



So we're back to "you need two 'mons to check Manaphy, and they don't really do anything to it at all anyway."

But it's not broken or overcentralizing. Somehow.



Your "cores" don't beat Manaphy. They just take a while to die.



Desolate Land Heatran with Magma Storm is easily checked by Flashfire, Magic Guard, Primordial Sea... and it runs out of PP on Magma Storm in short order, gets worn down by hazards/general chipping, and is a dubious choice against offense teams. I've fought Desolate Land Magma Storm Heatran, and it's not really a threat -even though I don't have Magic Guard or Primordial Sea and my Flashfire 'mon is my own Heatran.

Raikou is a joke against stall. Regenerator Blissey switches into literally anything it does and laughs -even Volt Switch abuse does nothing to wear down Blissey, because Regenerator.

I'm starting to think you've never even tried to play stall in Enchanted Items. You certainly don't seem to understand how stall performs in Enchanted Items.
I'm not gonna argue anymore because ur clearly much better informed than me and I'm just making myself look like an ass at this point so mb (fwiw I have played some semistall and stall but, like I said, I've had a huge amount more success with offense so maybe it's just a poor understanding of using the playstyle--and for what it's worth I did fine v.s. Mana although I didn't face too many other stallbreakers whereas the ladder has a boner over Mana so maybe it fell flat v.s. something else or maybe it didn't idk), but the Clef thing was under the assumption that it comes in on Tail Glow (which is what it happened in basically all of my games using it and then the Mana player just not being able to break it). As for Rai it was more just me listing the first 'mon with high unboosted power that I've been using which came to mind more than anything, and for what it's worth if you are Volt Switch vs. Blissey it can be used to get something which sets up on it such as MHera (rlly fun 'mon in this meta and surprisingly effective if you can get it in on something which doesn't carry SE coverage to get up a Sub and deal massive damage to something)--who sets up on it and also happens to give these teams a headache (keyword: headache; it doesn't 6:0 by any means) when it gets up a sub with its v. good bulk.
 
Hi yeah, so I have a lot of experience using and facing Manaphy. I've run various play-styles ranging from stall to balance to offence. I've found that my most consistent team is my stall team (the one I posted somewhere in this thread.) I broke 1400 for the first time with that team. Eventually more and more players I faced used Primordial Sea Manaphy, and I had to come up with Desolate Land Infernape just to not get 6-0d by Manaphy. Some people might be wondering why I didn't just run Desolate Land Heatran, arguably the most "solid counter" in the tier. Well, the answer is that I didn't want to lose one Pokemon to some Magnet Pull runner.

I eventually ran an offensive team based on Manaphy. I was able to reach 1550+, eventually passing Orda-Y on the ladder with it, having no problems with any other play-style. Being able to say that I used and faced Manaphy, I can say without bias that Manaphy is just not healthy for the tier. You have to understand that while the Primordial Sea set is the one being suspected, it has many other viable sets. The one I'm currently using and am Number 1 with had Motor Drive Manaphy at one point, which decimated Heliolisk as a "counter". It also has a very efficient Mold Breaker set with Surf, Energy Ball and Ancient Power / HP Ground (This set beats most Desolate users, because most Desolate Land users only counter Manaphy, because they believe nothing has coverage on them).

I cannot comprehend how people can easily say that Manaphy shouldn't be banned. Yes it's not super threatening at the get go if you're playing offense, but why should we limit Enchanted Items to offensive play-styles? That compromises team building, and is what we know as over-centralisation. Most players I see on the ladder run offence, and this makes the meta extremely stale. More so than that, ask any player what their Manaphy counter is, they'll give you outlandish answers such as the previously mentioned Electrify Heliolisk which is extremely gimmicky, and other things that dedicate a slot on the team as a full Manaphy counter.
just off of the top of my head things that can handle it on defenisive teams include CM+BoltBeam Blissey
Need I say more?

The problem is that most people are happy running offense, and they still see Manaphy as a threat, albeit not overpowered. But for a stall player like me, Manaphy is the bane of my existence... Don't limit the meta.

tl;dr: no lmao read everything I wrote for yourself, if the meta matters to you, you'd actually take time to consider what others say.

Proof of Peaks [So you don't think I'm just running my mouth]
With Stall



With Manaphy Offence



Offence without Manaphy


I also think that the requirement system is flawed. Here are my two cents...
 
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Manapy is easy to handle. All you need is one pokemone that resist ice+Grass and then slap water absorb on it. Hell most manaphys are just running scald+ice beam to make room for Rest.

I put water Absorb and THUNDER on my Rotom Heat. Counters Manaphy to hell and back. And frankly, any water absorber can. You just have to know how to play around it. Banning Manaphy is pointless. There are far more broken combinations out there.
 
Manapy is easy to handle. All you need is one pokemone that resist ice+Grass and then slap water absorb on it. Hell most manaphys are just running scald+ice beam to make room for Rest.

I put water Absorb and THUNDER on my Rotom Heat. Counters Manaphy to hell and back. And frankly, any water absorber can. You just have to know how to play around it. Banning Manaphy is pointless. There are far more broken combinations out there.
Step 1. Get to the top 15 of the EI ladder.
Step 2. Screenshot you feat.
Step 3. Post it on Grains of Salt's profile with your decision. Done!
Just saying "Manaphy should'nt be banned" is not gonna save it. Theres a suspect test for a reason. :)
 
I put water Absorb and THUNDER on my Rotom Heat. Counters Manaphy to hell and back. And frankly, any water absorber can.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 206-246 (67.9 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mold Breaker sets eat Water Absorb. You can't call it a counter since on the switch, Manaphy can 2HKO Rotom-H because the Mold Breaker set runs 252 or 252+ Speed and outruns Rotom-H. Not to mention that Rotom-H can't switch in on a Tail Glow or else it means the end of the line.

Now let's talk about how your post proves that Manaphy needs to be banned. First of all, you're running Water Absorb Rotom-H, an almost niche mon. What does Water Absorb Rotom-H accomplish other than checking Manaphy? The fact that you need to consider a team slot to check Manaphy with Water Absorb (any Pokemon), means that you are conceding that it needs to be well prepared for. Secondly, the fact that you decide to run Thunder over Thunderbolt, while being a small nitpick, proves that you want to eliminate Manaphy as best as possible. Due to this choice, you are sacrificing crucial accuracy or utility, because outside of rain, Thunder is inferior to Thunderbolt/Volt Switch.

The reason things are suspected is not because they're always obviously overpowered for the meta; if that was the case, then a quick ban would be proposed. Suspect tests occur, because you don't see how the Pokemon on the pedestal over-centralises the meta at first glance. Keep this in mind when theorymoning and arguing about sets on paper, rather than in practice.

While on the topic of correct argumentation, it's best to keep it intelligent and thorough. Arguing that X is not banworthy, because Y beats it, doesn't prove anything. The same goes for the argument, "It's easy to play around." While I'm not exactly a fan of people who want Manaphy to stay in the tier, I'm in no way saying that I disapprove of their posts. Rather, it would be better for there to be some sort of substance, so that this discussion will not be fruitless.
 
252 SpA Mold Breaker Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 206-246 (67.9 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mold Breaker sets eat Water Absorb. You can't call it a counter since on the switch, Manaphy can 2HKO Rotom-H because the Mold Breaker set runs 252 or 252+ Speed and outruns Rotom-H. Not to mention that Rotom-H can't switch in on a Tail Glow or else it means the end of the line.

Now let's talk about how your post proves that Manaphy needs to be banned. First of all, you're running Water Absorb Rotom-H, an almost niche mon. What does Water Absorb Rotom-H accomplish other than checking Manaphy. The fact that you need to consider a team slot to check Manaphy with Water Absorb (any Pokemon), means that you are conceding that it needs to be well prepared for. Secondly, the fact that you decide to run Thunder over Thunderbolt, while being a small nitpick, proves that you want to eliminate Manaphy as best as possible, while outside of rain, Thunder is inferior to Thunderbolt.

The reason things are suspected is not because they're always obviously overpowered for the meta; if that was the case, then a quick ban would be proposed. Suspect tests occur, because you don't see how the Pokemon on the pedestal over-centralises the meta at first glance. Keep this in mind when theorymoning and arguing about sets on paper, rather than in practice. While on the topic of correct argumentations, it's best to keep it intelligent and thorough. Arguing that X is not banworthy, because Y beats it, doesn't prove anything. The same goes for the argument, "It's easy to play around." While I'm not exactly a fan of people who want Manaphy to stay in the tier, I'm in no way saying that I disapprove of their posts. Rather, it would be better for there to be some sort of substance, so that this discussion will not be fruitless.

You could literally slap Mold Breaker on ANY pokemon in this tier as a reason to say a counter isn't a counter. Fact is Mold breaker Manaphy is NOT USED AT ALL. By anyone. Mold breaker has no synergy with Hydration either offensively or defensively and it's an announce ability so if you're running Mold Braker manaphy, it INSTANTLY becomes a thousand times easier to handle. Besides beating unaware, which I find pretty bad in this tier, there are a tonne of things that use it better. And if you run it, you have no defense against Electric Revenging You and no ability to abuse Rest or Hydration. You find Primordial Sea, sometimes Drizzle, Motor Drive and I myself ran Lightning rod at one point.

You NEVER see Mold Breaker Manaphy
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
You could literally slap Mold Breaker on ANY pokemon in this tier as a reason to say a counter isn't a counter. Fact is Mold breaker Manaphy is NOT USED AT ALL. By anyone. Mold breaker has no synergy with Hydration either offensively or defensively and it's an announce ability so if you're running Mold Braker manaphy, it INSTANTLY becomes a thousand times easier to handle. Besides beating unaware, which I find pretty bad in this tier, there are a tonne of things that use it better. And if you run it, you have no defense against Electric Revenging You and no ability to abuse Rest or Hydration. You find Primordial Sea, sometimes Drizzle, Motor Drive and I myself ran Lightning rod at one point.

You NEVER see Mold Breaker Manaphy
I used Mold Breaker Manaphy. You don't let it take electric moves, and to be honest you almost never should allow Manaphy to take Electric moves anyway. Manaphy doesn't just have Ice Beam and Energy Ball as coverage by the way. I've seen Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Ground, and a lot of other moves are possible. I used Mold Breaker with Healing Wish support personally, and while the set was in no way AS good as the Primordial Sea set it still put in a lot of work. I eventually switched in order to have a status absorber on my team. Also that Rotom set is weak to Stealth Rock, has no recovery outside of Pain Split, and generally would appreciate a different ability. To be honest I'd say Desolate Land would be 100% better on that set, and screw the Thunder. You're still scared of Timid Mold Breaker Manaphy with Hidden Power Ground. Manaphy can do a lot to pick what counters it, based on its ability and its coverage. Sort of reminds me of Greninja, especially since this meta trends so slow.
 
thoughts on lightningrod volcanion? Havent played a lot of this meta at all but so far it seems to be doing reeeeallly well
 
thoughts on lightningrod volcanion? Havent played a lot of this meta at all but so far it seems to be doing reeeeallly well
The only thing I think that would try a lightning move on volcanion is porygon. Meh it's okay I guess.

However, after we ban Manaphy there is a pokemon that needs banning right now. No questions asked. Aerialate Dragonite is BROKEN and should be the highest priority ban right now. That is all.
 
The only thing I think that would try a lightning move on volcanion is porygon. Meh it's okay I guess.

However, after we ban Manaphy there is a pokemon that needs banning right now. No questions asked. Aerialate Dragonite is BROKEN and should be the highest priority ban right now. That is all.
Aerilate Dragonite has several viable counters that are good in this meta, and I really wouldn't see it as a massive problem. I've used Flash Fire Skarmory, Levitate Heatran, Slowbro (any ability), heck even Avalugg (any ability works here too) to counter it quite effectively, and I've seen offensive teams use Refridgerate Fake Out Weavile to completely shut it down. I honestly don't think Dragonite is very good in this meta, except for revenge killing I guess, as there are just too many things to remove before you can sweep at all.
 
I actually think porigon-z is more broken than dragonite. Using aguave berry you get adaptability along with protean which makes every move a stab move and doubles its damage. The set I have now is ice beam/thunderbolt/dark pulse/agility, which patches up its low speed, modest 4 hp/252 spa/252 spe in evs. By strategically changing its type, it can play around whatever your opponent brings in; only special walls like chansey can take its moves and the best they can do is status it. It quickly takes care of tons of metagame threats like manaphy, skarmory, dragonite, and wevile, 2hkoing scizor, etc. It's just crazy good and it doesn't even need support to put in work.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I agree about the Pory-Z suspect. Most of the checks I've seen people use for it die to either Psyshock or Hidden Power Fighting. Honestly at this point I'm running it as an All Out Attacker rather than a set up sweeper, the only difference really being that Delta Stream SpD walls can now beat it. I think Delta Stream Mandibuzz is the best counter I've seen.

For Dragonite, I originally thought it needed a suspect, and it is REALLY good, but now I'm not sure. I've been using physdef Regen Rotom-W as my check to it, and it works... most of the time. Burns make Dragonite a lot less threatening. Dragonite can beat Heatran if it runs Superpower, although it's a roll on the switch in if Heatran if full PhysDef (does anyone run this?). I mostly use Dragonite as a cleaner, and it's amazing at that. Run it with Magnet Pull... something... to get rid of Skarm and Heatran, give it Ice Punch for Landorus-T when it tries to switch in, and mop up their team late game. Setting up Dragon Dances rarely works for me. Espeed spam is life, Espeed spam is love.

Adding my voice to all the calls I've seen for Shed Shell to be taken off the list of items that give abilities, it definitely is still useful, and Skarm suffers from its loss.
 
This is interesting. I can think on a few combos like Lucario with Speed Boost or Talonflame with Magic Guard that might work. I wonder how broken Smeargle will be with Prankster...
 
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Manaphy is now banned, with exactly 62,5% of the votes saying ban! You're free to check on my profile for the vote! Note that within the time this can be nominated for OMOTM, Sun and Moon is out and bans will be undone!

The Immortal urkerab Spandan

Nomel Berry should be linked to Levitate, and Shed shell should retain its effect as well!

Started PR. After its merged, I'll update Abyssal Bot :)
Also, about Dragonite. This thing is broken, with Multiscale + Protean or Multiscale + Aerilate. Hope it gets suspected soon :)
 
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Thanks, I'd like to address this radeflow

So right now there's three mons that people want suspected - Porygon-Z, Clefable and Dragonite. Now, I've used all three and they're all really underwhelming.

Porygon-Z has a hard time being justified imo, I always find myself sacking it because the metagame favours offence - where Porygon-Z struggles to switch in and outspeed. And even then I usually just pivot into something. Very rarely does it get multiple free switch ins through out the game, contrary to something like Manaphy.

Dnite struggles against four of the most common mons in the tier, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Rotom-w/h or Landorus-Therian. How annoying these pokemon can be really hurts Dragonite's matchup versus balance - and it's honestly been falling in visbility since day one. It was suspect worthy, then S, then A+ and now it hovers around a+ and a.

And Clefable is good, but Heatran is such a good counter that it's hard to really sweep.

Just my two cents!
 

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