NOC Fallout New Vegas NOC [GAME OVER - Wastelanders Win]

[Spiffy]

I mean yes, to some extent, everyone would have a self preservationist attitude because "I only know that I am village, so lynching anyone else would have a better chance of lynching mafia". All you're doing is defending yourself and demeaning attempts to progress the game and these are valid reasons to question you.
What has to happen for you to have enough information? I want to know what your plan is for the whole game. I've already outlined why "follow the inspector" is a terrible idea. I want to understand where you're coming from.

 

[vonFiedler]

Moi your perspective has come an awful lot from the perspective of a mafioso (i.e. the mafia would do this) in a short amount of time, in spite of not singling out said behavior in anyone. Your head just seems to be on the mafia side to be honest. Looking for tells is good, but forecasting them?

For instance, you didn't know what bussing was. But within two minutes you concluded what years of meta has. So either you were thinking about it really hard from their perspective, or were full of shit in the first place (tee hee, I don't how to be mafia I must be town).

lynch moi

 

[moi]

I did not demean attempts to progress the game - I addressed why the path we are taking is faulty. Your assumption is that your method of play is the correct one, which is obviously a gross overstatement. You ignored my question as to why you would not post your answer to your question, and did just as much deflecting as you claim for me to have done.

You claim that the goal of a day 1 vote is to gain information, even if we are nearly guaranteed to mislynch. Why does this discussion not hit the same point?

umm, von..

You're faulting me for THINKING about the game? Thinking about a game from every perspective is more than logical, so you're faulting me because you don't think I am capable of doing this.

And how does bussing prove anything? Not knowing the term for something doesn't mean I don't know what it means. I'm sorry that my specific vocabulary raises suspicion in me.

It's quite clear that I am being used as an "easy" target because I wish to address the common though process and why I think it is wrong. Disagreement should not be used as claim for lynching, and jumping to that conclusion places suspicion on yourself and the others who follow that path more so than it does myself.

 

[ButteredToast]

vonFiedler moi ButteredToast who are the top two players most likely to be mafia in your eyes and why?

First off, there is absolutely no information to go upon to give me or anyone else a sliver of a doubt to the information at hand. I'm going off of literally intuition and things that I see as behavioral patterns of "how would I act if I was in the mafia" kind of thoughts. Doing this will probably just cause a change in behavior and allow them to throw me off by changing their behavior or not and kind of reverse-psychology me. But, I have nothing to hide and I'll share my thoughts.

One on my list is Fatecrashers. I figured he would take more of a "voice of reason" kind of stance, and yet he kind of went on a "let's get a-lynching" point of view. I like Fate, and I think he is quite witty and good at understanding his actions. And I kind of don't like how he changed his vote to moi without more information. Like he was trying to get more of a following. Maybe he's laying low to avoid things, or maybe he's trying to throw support behind someone. Or maybe he's the courier and doesn't care who gets lynched long as it's not him. It's dumb, but I guess I kind of maybe expected more from him taking more of a logical approach.

The second on my list is serious bananas. He seems to have taken the offensive a bit too quickly and then kind of took his foot off the gas a bit. He succeeded to kind of start something out of nowhere with Moi and my thoughts is that he might be the "best way for people to not suspect me is to suspect someone else" deal.

Also curious that both Fate and Bananas went after moi without much evidence and on very whimsical terms. I still don't get the whole "gang up on moi" thing. He explained himself poorly and is now public enemy number one...? Don't get it.

These are terrible reasons and it's why I haven't voted yet. But there it goes. If everyone was equal and my vote was the deciding vote, I'd probably knock off Fate but that's on an absolute whim. I'll probably vote closer to deadline to protect someone who is innocent if it was tied. But someone needs to be gone just because the odds decrease the longer we wait around.

 

[ButteredToast]

Also, may I point out that no one has come to Moi's defense besides really me who wants to give him the benefit of the doubt? You would think that if the mafia knew who they were they'd do more to pull the heat off of him?

Also, just because you don't know a term doesn't mean moi hasn't played mafia enough to not know the idea. I haven't played mafia in a long time, but even I can see how it would be dumb to throw your teammate to the fire the first round. The larger leadership role you take the larger the chances you get cleaned. And then you'd be out another member and you're screwed. Maybe later on hat works but not now. You don't have to play long to get that.

 

[vonFiedler]

I don't really see you as having just defended yourself at all to be honest.

You're faulting me for THINKING about the game? Thinking about a game from every perspective is more than logical, so you're faulting me because you don't think I am capable of doing this.

But you're pretty singular about it. Now I can't mole here, so I don't mind saying that when I'm mafia moling in a normal game, sometimes I have a tremendous problem with keeping the villager vonFiedler and the mafia vonFiedler separate. Especially if I'm coming up with actions, this can be very mentally taxing. So I think I see you coming at this from a mafia perspective. I didn't say anything earlier, but it keeps building up. You just keep jumping in very quickly saying what the mafia will do rather than calling people out on acting like mafia after they do so. Depending on whether mafia can speak during the day, this could have an added benefit.

I didn't want to say anything when this was first brought up, but you when you talked about leading to keep pressure off yourself it occurred to me that I'm not sure I've seen anyone mention that in an NOC before (but I'm not experienced). It just seems too damn savvy, and again, telling people what I'd do as I'm doing it to them is something I have been successfully guilty of often.

And how does bussing prove anything? Not knowing the term for something doesn't mean I don't know what it means. I'm sorry that my specific vocabulary raises suspicion in me.

Here is just where you didn't really defend yourself. You just didn't take any time to believably mull over it to be honest. Now someone might feign ignorance over mafia mechanics like this to make them seem like less of a threat, and I don't know that that is the case here. But if its not, you still had the right perspective about it super quick. Like we had rehearsed it or something.

It's quite clear that I am being used as an "easy" target because I wish to address the common though process and why I think it is wrong. Disagreement should not be used as claim for lynching, and jumping to that conclusion places suspicion on yourself and the others who follow that path more so than it does myself.

And this I think you could all around do better with. I've heard you and billymills talk enough about your ghost busters level college science projects to have more faith in your ability to construct an argument with less fallacious reasoning. Never did I suggest that we came to some sort of disagreement and that thus you should be lynched, for I had not even argued with you prior to this post. Furthermore, it's in poor taste to suggest that I'm scum immediately after placing suspicion upon you. I also highly doubt that you are an "easy" target, but in the process of putting pressure on you I think the results have been interesting to say the least.

 

[Spiffy]

moi I literally gave my top three lynch candidates in a post 12 minutes before the post where I asked you the question:

As of right now I'd be most comfortable lynching Jalmont for wanting to no lynch despite knowing better, or someone like PokeguyNXB or Celever who are clearly reading the thread but having to have their arm twisted to say anything.

If you really want me to narrow that down to two it would PokeguyNXB or Celever.

Now YOU stop avoiding the question. What is your method of playing this game if you think the way I am playing is flawed?

I am hesitant in calling moi or Jalmont mafia at the moment, just misguided in their thought processes. An easier move to make if they were mafia would be to just conform with their critics and go with the low instead of setting themselves apart. I'd be more comfortable lynching active lurkers Pokeguy or Celever.

 

[vonFiedler]

Also, may I point out that no one has come to Moi's defense besides really me who wants to give him the benefit of the doubt? You would think that if the mafia knew who they were they'd do more to pull the heat off of him?

Also, just because you don't know a term doesn't mean moi hasn't played mafia enough to not know the idea. I haven't played mafia in a long time, but even I can see how it would be dumb to throw your teammate to the fire the first round. The larger leadership role you take the larger the chances you get cleaned. And then you'd be out another member and you're screwed. Maybe later on hat works but not now. You don't have to play long to get that.

All of moi, spiffy, myself, and you have been active in the time since moi has been accused of anything. Now you've jumped in his defense, not that I think it means anything, but it does somewhat invalidate your point.

 

[moi]

vonFiedler - if I say I am afraid of spiders, yet I don't know the word for it, does that mean I do not know what I am afraid of?

likewise - if I say I understand the concept of a mafia sacrificing another mafia, yet I don't know the word for it, does it mean I not know the concept? Talk about jumping to conclusions

 

[vonFiedler]

It didn't really come across that way but whatever.

 

[rssp1]

I legitimately have no idea what just happened.
going to read back to try and understand what's going on.

 

[moi]

It makes perfect sense for me to proceed in an argument that way, given that the entirety of my previous post discussed the patterns of voting on D1 and the likelihood of mislynch corresponding with increased probability of mafia voting for said mislynch. Given that I am in the process of getting mislynched, and an increasing number of users are targeting me, the statement "jumping to that conclusion places suspicion on yourself and the others who follow that path more so than it does myself." does nothing to disagree with what I ranted on a page ago.

tbh it seems incredibly shallow to be lynching me under what summarizes as "you are actively thinking about the game in a way I have never approached, so clearly you must be bad". That is coupled with the thought that me defending myself is a negative, but I think it would be foolish to roll over and let people rather baselessly target me.

@spif
Spiffy, given the nature of the game, it is safe to assume that at least one of the active posters is mafia attempting to sway the course of voting, which narrows down the list to von, yourself, ButteredToast, rssp, SeriousBananas and jalmont. The person I think is most obviously clean is rssp, though he could easily be feigning stupidity/ignorance but his method of asking questions/going about seems unlikely to be mafia.

If we assume 3 members of mafia in the game, it's likely that one of the less active players represents the last portion of the mafia. Celever and fate have demonstrated the most characteristic avoidance pattern of these players, aligning in simple and quick agreement.

You haven't convinced me that approaching the lynch with your method will be more successful than randomly voting (nor do you provide any evidence to the contrary outside of "past discussions"), and I haven't convinced myself of an estimate percentage of "sureness" that we need to have in order for the lynch to be worthwhile (which depends on the estimated numbers of kills in the game, as a slower game can afford more mislynches. The Courier adds a strong wild card to this, imo). I think that randomly selecting a lynch target from my pool of current voters against me will have a much higher probability of being mafia than other voting patterns, I'm still not convinced that this will be high enough such that it is worthwhile (again, I still need to clear up what these definitions "worthwhile" mean to myself, I'm going to look into the numbers). While this course of action will easily be argued as an action of "self-defence" I think the logic I presented previously as well as the past games make this to be a sensible statement.

 

[ButteredToast]

I legitimately have no idea what just happened.
going to read back to try and understand what's going on.

That's kind of my response. I don't get why we are surprised moi is being accused of being defensive when he's being put on the defense.

To vonFiedler - the moi thing has been going on for awhile now. Serious Bananas in Post #30 questions moi's lack of answering and votes for him. Then it kind of goes away just for Fate to kind of strangely put moi back on the forefront with his vote change in post 72. Then cancerous questions him more too in post #77. Rssp1 was also posting in addition to us. And at the time of Gale's vote update he was the #1 guy on the list. Now this whole thing happened recently. My point is that throughout this entire time, no one thought to defend him. Now, he might very well be the courier. But I would think if he is mafia someone would defend him.

Yeah, that I defended him kind of dilutes the point for all of you. I know you guys don't know what role I am, but I do. And all I'm saying is that we know how bad it is for the mafia to lose someone whether through busing or just a day one lynch... everyone has just kind of kept the pressure on him or backed off.

I don't get what's so suspicious about moi. He just seems like he had a long weekend with personal things going on. Just got back and had to be on the defensive. And is complying to our thoughts. I don't see how that makes him mafia. I don't see how that's suspicious. And I'm determinately in Spiffy's camp in focusing our aims to people who are reading but not responding or acting out of character when they know better.

 

[rssp1]

don't worry i have a huge post on the way

 

[Fatecrashers]

ButteredToast me not conforming to your expectations is not indicative of anything, this is a poor reason to be suspicious of someone

as i said from the outset, i don't believe in a no lynch day one, and even a mislynch is better than a no lynch since it gives the village information and initiative, rather than solely reacting to the mafia's night actions, and that's why i'm liable to be quite liberal with who i vote for. i threw my vote behind moi partly to put pressure on him to respond with something substantial, but more to look for bandwagoners, as you will notice both my vote on celever and moi are not what pushed them into majority, i am looking for mafia members who would be eager to push a villager into majority, so you're right in that i'm looking for a following, but probably not for the reason you expected

 

[rssp1]

ok
shitload of quotes incoming

I said no lynch should go through in the sense that we shouldn't be voting for stupid reasons - everything anyone has done is guesswork that they are trying to frame in their own context of rationale to suit their own purposes. In that sense, I was invalidating my previous lynch post on Cancerous, which I assumed to be agreeing with von. It made sense to me in my head so I didn't see reason to further address this except that persecution against me increased.

I'm not sure what you mean by bussing. Is this a term I don't understand?

Sure, it made sense in your head but judging by everyone's reaction to it, nobody understood what you were thinking. You could've just said what you said here the first time and I doubt any problem would have arisen.
I've seen bussing used as both what von said, but there are other definitions which I won't reveal until it becomes necessary due to a good point made by BT.

Oh - well it should be clear that there is no logical reason to bus someone. In a game with fewer total members each mafia is vital, the potential gain in trust associated with correctly lynching someone is a terrible tradeoff for losing a third or even half in some cases of your total team...

There can be; starting a lynch on your own member or even strongly advocating for it can gain some serious towncred for you, and it's especially useful if used on a teammate who will likely be lynched anyways. On paper, it seems horrifically stupid, but you might be surprised how often it works out for the mafia.

Anyone else think it's extremely counter productive to argue "The mafia usually follows 'x' formula"... you know... in front of the mafia? Doesn't that just give them a blue print of what all exactly would give us information down the line in the future?

To me that just seems like giving them a way to blend in better. And making it more difficult for us to make informed decisions later on. If we're just going to voice out what we are going to personally look for as suspicious actions on day one, we're screwing ourselves down the road.

Obviously if we say that the mafia looks suspicious for not saying anything, the mafia will try to blend in and say something. Along with the rest of us who are trying not to be misidentified with the mafia. Obviously if we say that the mafia doesn't vote for each other the mafia might vote for each other in ways that they know they won't be lynched.

Yeah, I would think that the mafia would be alerted to who is in the mafia with them. And my guess would be that because it's NOC, they would be more favorable to trying to agree to go after one person for "legitimate" reasons such as Moi. But now that we are giving them blue prints to hide and handing them strategy, that just makes us harder on ourselves.

We can't exactly explain our points to other townies without publicly displaying them to the mafia... given that this is NOC and all. It does give them ways to blend in better, which is why you shouldn't reveal TOO MUCH but rather only what is necessary to explain your points/incriminate possible scum. Obviously one could argue that there are several mafiosos coordinating a lynch on moi, but can't the same thing be argued for when multiple people are lynching the same person for reasons that may or may not be good? Both could be town, or one could be town while the other is scum. It's hard, as you said, to simply fit the mafia as people who follow a specific formula.

If you are going to dismiss my argument than equally the arguments being used against me should be dismissed as they are equally based on a publicly available stereotyping framework, at which point we hit back into what I was saying that this is all incredibly inaccurate guesswork.

From what i've seen, nobody is dismissing your arguments. Everyone who disagrees with them explicitly states that they do and most explain why they disagree.

I am blatantly overreacting because I already addressed the issue and it was ignored - I am allowed to be annoyed at people (as if something that is characteristic of me if any of you have played with me consistently before!)

You can't expect everyone to be mind readers. Almost nobody (if not nobody) understood your true meaning behind the post you made, which caused this whole issue in the first place. You're obviously allowed to be annoyed, it's just that some people may see it as scummy. There's not very much you can do about that but argue that your annoyance is a natural reaction.

Moi my main problem with you is that you only seem concerned with defending yourself. You haven't done any serious voting in or sharing opinions about other players in awhile. To be fair, over half the game seems to have the same philosophy of avoiding talking about other players.

vonFiedler moi ButteredToast who are the top two players most likely to be mafia in your eyes and why?

Most people, when being attacked or pressured by others, will step up to defend themselves and generally only focus on that. If everyone laid off him and gave him a chance to state his opinions on others, i'm sure he would (although it's obviously pretty hard to get anything that concretely incriminates another player as scum at this point).
Spiffy, who are the top two players most likely to be mafia in your eyes (you did say this) and WHY? (elaborate)?

Yet, in the same sense, aren't you playing in a self preservationist way as well? You are dictating the action in a way to avoid yourself by constantly addressing others in an effort to deflect attention from yourself - by controlling conversation you keep others on the defensive instead of having to address your own issues of trustworthiness (and to the same extent won't answer your own question directly where you post it)

I don't believe I have enough information to make an intelligent decision, which I think I stated in my post, and neither should anyone else, tbh

Spiffy is either leading or attempting to lead town. This tells us one of three things. 1) he's mafia trying to lead town to it's doom, something which occurs more often that you'd think. 2) he's a fairly useless role who knows that he would best be spent attracting a nightkill by leading town. 3) he's a fairly useful role who wants mafia to think he's 2) so that he's nightkilled as late as possible. Essentially, we know nothing about Spiffy's role from this. Whoo. I personally believe that you should always be cautious of town leaders and never fully trust them (meaning, make your own decisions and don't let the decisions of the town leader dictate your own). At this point, nobody has enough information to make a completely intelligent decision, but you have to use a mix of your gut along with weird things others have posted to find SOMETHING that seems strange. It's extremely hard on day 1, but as the day goes on, i'd assume there's SOMETHING you can find.

Also, may I point out that no one has come to Moi's defense besides really me who wants to give him the benefit of the doubt? You would think that if the mafia knew who they were they'd do more to pull the heat off of him?

Also, just because you don't know a term doesn't mean moi hasn't played mafia enough to not know the idea. I haven't played mafia in a long time, but even I can see how it would be dumb to throw your teammate to the fire the first round. The larger leadership role you take the larger the chances you get cleaned. And then you'd be out another member and you're screwed. Maybe later on hat works but not now. You don't have to play long to get that.

von addressed the former part of this. There are variations to bussing that can work early, but I agree that going to far as to push lynches on scumbuddies on the first couple days is generally not a good idea.

v comments in bold

I don't really see you as having just defended yourself at all to be honest.



But you're pretty singular about it. Now I can't mole here, so I don't mind saying that when I'm mafia moling in a normal game, sometimes I have a tremendous problem with keeping the villager vonFiedler and the mafia vonFiedler separate. Especially if I'm coming up with actions, this can be very mentally taxing. So I think I see you coming at this from a mafia perspective. I didn't say anything earlier, but it keeps building up. You just keep jumping in very quickly saying what the mafia will do rather than calling people out on acting like mafia after they do so. Depending on whether mafia can speak during the day, this could have an added benefit.

tbh using your own experiences as mafia to find mafia GENERALLY doesn't work unless it's a common thing that most mafiosos do. It's fairly biased and inaccurate otherwise.

I didn't want to say anything when this was first brought up, but you when you talked about leading to keep pressure off yourself it occurred to me that I'm not sure I've seen anyone mention that in an NOC before (but I'm not experienced). It just seems too damn savvy, and again, telling people what I'd do as I'm doing it to them is something I have been successfully guilty of often.

Mafiosos do that fairly often, actually.

Here is just where you didn't really defend yourself. You just didn't take any time to believably mull over it to be honest. Now someone might feign ignorance over mafia mechanics like this to make them seem like less of a threat, and I don't know that that is the case here. But if its not, you still had the right perspective about it super quick. Like we had rehearsed it or something.

You could have just explained it really well. Bussing isn't THAT complex of a term.

v comments in bold again

It makes perfect sense for me to proceed in an argument that way, given that the entirety of my previous post discussed the patterns of voting on D1 and the likelihood of mislynch corresponding with increased probability of mafia voting for said mislynch. Given that I am in the process of getting mislynched, and an increasing number of users are targeting me, the statement "jumping to that conclusion places suspicion on yourself and the others who follow that path more so than it does myself." does nothing to disagree with what I ranted on a page ago.
aren't there like... two users voting you atm? or three, where one of them is an RL?
tbh it seems incredibly shallow to be lynching me under what summarizes as "you are actively thinking about the game in a way I have never approached, so clearly you must be bad". That is coupled with the thought that me defending myself is a negative, but I think it would be foolish to roll over and let people rather baselessly target me.
I agree with this, but is that why you're being lynched? I thought the reasons were different...
@spif
Spiffy, given the nature of the game, it is safe to assume that at least one of the active posters is mafia attempting to sway the course of voting, which narrows down the list to von, yourself, ButteredToast, rssp, SeriousBananas and jalmont. The person I think is most obviously clean is rssp, though he could easily be feigning stupidity/ignorance but his method of asking questions/going about seems unlikely to be mafia.
ouch
If we assume 3 members of mafia in the game, it's likely that one of the less active players represents the last portion of the mafia. Celever and fate have demonstrated the most characteristic avoidance pattern of these players, aligning in simple and quick agreement.
sure, it's likely, but not guaranteed. For all you know, given 3 mafiosos, all 3 could be active at this point in time while most (if not all) of the inactives are town. Contrary to that, everyone arguing with each other at this moment could be town while the 3 mafiosos are just lurking.
You haven't convinced me that approaching the lynch with your method will be more successful than randomly voting (nor do you provide any evidence to the contrary outside of "past discussions"), and I haven't convinced myself of an estimate percentage of "sureness" that we need to have in order for the lynch to be worthwhile (which depends on the estimated numbers of kills in the game, as a slower game can afford more mislynches. The Courier adds a strong wild card to this, imo). I think that randomly selecting a lynch target from my pool of current voters against me will have a much higher probability of being mafia than other voting patterns, I'm still not convinced that this will be high enough such that it is worthwhile (again, I still need to clear up what these definitions "worthwhile" mean to myself, I'm going to look into the numbers). While this course of action will easily be argued as an action of "self-defence" I think the logic I presented previously as well as the past games make this to be a sensible statement.
If there's one thing I learned from a friend of mine who used statistics and numerical data for his mafia games, it's that relying on them too much can really screw you over. Each game provides new and unique situations, and you can't necessarily use the stats from previous games to predict or decide what to do in future ones.

let's see how long this is

 

[rssp1]

That's kind of my response. I don't get why we are surprised moi is being accused of being defensive when he's being put on the defense.

Yeah, that I defended him kind of dilutes the point for all of you. I know you guys don't know what role I am, but I do. And all I'm saying is that we know how bad it is for the mafia to lose someone whether through busing or just a day one lynch... everyone has just kind of kept the pressure on him or backed off.

I don't get what's so suspicious about moi. He just seems like he had a long weekend with personal things going on. Just got back and had to be on the defensive. And is complying to our thoughts. I don't see how that makes him mafia. I don't see how that's suspicious. And I'm determinately in Spiffy's camp in focusing our aims to people who are reading but not responding or acting out of character when they know better.

1) Agreed.
2) What in the world are you trying to say here? I understand the latter part, but what does the bussing have to do with that?
3) Why do you say that "he seems like he had a long weekend with personal things going on" when (my possibly faulty memory) recalls only him saying that he was out of the house and would be back later?

 

[moi]

anyways I'm heading to sleep in the next half hour so tag me in posts you want me to address when I wake up, and I'll address them then and be gone for the most of the day following.

 

[rssp1]

moi read the giant post I made i'm at least 20% sure that I have something pertaining to you in there

 

[vonFiedler]

It makes perfect sense for me to proceed in an argument that way, given that the entirety of my previous post discussed the patterns of voting on D1 and the likelihood of mislynch corresponding with increased probability of mafia voting for said mislynch. Given that I am in the process of getting mislynched, and an increasing number of users are targeting me, the statement "jumping to that conclusion places suspicion on yourself and the others who follow that path more so than it does myself." does nothing to disagree with what I ranted on a page ago.

I never said defending yourself was scummy. I just asserted that pointing the finger right back at people who accuse you is childish. Not scummy, mind you readers, pretty neutral in fact, but childish.

I jumped to no conclusion. I said myself that I didn't bring this up the first time I saw you behave this way, which was the bussing incident that you are obsessing over. It was only when I noticed a pattern, and over the course of a few hours that I said anything. If that's not worth mentioning then I'm not sure you want us talking at all. Also you're being pretty dramatic about a whopping 3 votes.

tbh it seems incredibly shallow to be lynching me under what summarizes as "you are actively thinking about the game in a way I have never approached, so clearly you must be bad". That is coupled with the thought that me defending myself is a negative, but I think it would be foolish to roll over and let people rather baselessly target me.

This is just kind of rude. Glass houses maybe, but calling out people for "I'm scum, no YOU'RE scum" happens in every game so it seems fair. On the other hand, please don't insult my methods just because I think that forecasting such thoughts makes no sense. As buttered said, it would be wiser to look for those thoughts in others... which I have with you.

I'll try to be neutral because it helps no one to get in a tiffy about scum hunting, but I'm not sure that my narrative is wrong so far.

 

[ButteredToast]

Fate: I completely admit it's not indicative of anything at all. I was asked a question and trying to be honest. I was seeing what was going on with some unusual behavior and trying to catch your rational for doing what you were doing and I didn't/don't understand. It's honestly a terrible question to ask someone "who do you think is mafia" when we have no info. But I see how it's helpful to be open with our thoughts and get why it's asked.

Rssp: We were talking about how hurtful it would be for a mafia member to be killed off night one even if it has the benefits of elevating another mafia member. We determined busing is a bad strategy and hurts the mafia. I would think that seeing a mafia member under fire would give them some cause for concern and panic them into action. And no one really did.

When it comes to the third part, I have no idea what is going on with moi and why he is not answering in a timely manner, but there is a slew of logical reasons he wasn't answering. I don't see how it was strategic to not answer and I haven't seen him in the viewing part of the thread. If he was busy or away or whatever reason, I don't think it has anything to do with game tactics. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt for being away. He's just seemed a bit delayed and it was my assumption.

I'm going to bed. Have work in the early morning. I'll try to get caught up tomorrow night.

 

[rssp1]

Rssp: We were talking about how hurtful it would be for a mafia member to be killed off night one even if it has the benefits of elevating another mafia member. We determined busing is a bad strategy and hurts the mafia. I would think that seeing a mafia member under fire would give them some cause for concern and panic them into action. And no one really did.

When it comes to the third part, I have no idea what is going on with moi and why he is not answering in a timely manner, but there is a slew of logical reasons he wasn't answering. I don't see how it was strategic to not answer and I haven't seen him in the viewing part of the thread. If he was busy or away or whatever reason, I don't think it has anything to do with game tactics. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt for being away. He's just seemed a bit delayed and it was my assumption.

I'm going to bed. Have work in the early morning. I'll try to get caught up tomorrow night.

1) gotcha. I think i was referring to bussing in the general sense, didn't realize you were referring to moi at this moment when you talked about it.
2) Alright, that's a valid assumption.

 

[moi]

ok
shitload of quotes incoming


Sure, it made sense in your head but judging by everyone's reaction to it, nobody understood what you were thinking. You could've just said what you said here the first time and I doubt any problem would have arisen. Is it my fault for not being that explicit? Likely. I don't think it excuses a witchhunt
I've seen bussing used as both what von said, but there are other definitions which I won't reveal until it becomes necessary due to a good point made by BT.




There can be; starting a lynch on your own member or even strongly advocating for it can gain some serious towncred for you, and it's especially useful if used on a teammate who will likely be lynched anyways. On paper, it seems horrifically stupid, but you might be surprised how often it works out for the mafia. It is stupid.



We can't exactly explain our points to other townies without publicly displaying them to the mafia... given that this is NOC and all. It does give them ways to blend in better, which is why you shouldn't reveal TOO MUCH but rather only what is necessary to explain your points/incriminate possible scum. Obviously one could argue that there are several mafiosos coordinating a lynch on moi, but can't the same thing be argued for when multiple people are lynching the same person for reasons that may or may not be good? Both could be town, or one could be town while the other is scum. It's hard, as you said, to simply fit the mafia as people who follow a specific formula.




From what i've seen, nobody is dismissing your arguments. Everyone who disagrees with them explicitly states that they do and most explain why they disagree. This was in response to von, whose initial reaction was to state that me thinking about the game in such a manner was to claim I was mafia, and Spiffy, who said that I proved his point that we should clearly vote without substantiating how I proved his point



You can't expect everyone to be mind readers. Almost nobody (if not nobody) understood your true meaning behind the post you made, which caused this whole issue in the first place. You're obviously allowed to be annoyed, it's just that some people may see it as scummy. There's not very much you can do about that but argue that your annoyance is a natural reaction. there's nothing to address her, so much as I think this is you thinking out loud (which is cool)



Most people, when being attacked or pressured by others, will step up to defend themselves and generally only focus on that. If everyone laid off him and gave him a chance to state his opinions on others, i'm sure he would (although it's obviously pretty hard to get anything that concretely incriminates another player as scum at this point).
Spiffy, who are the top two players most likely to be mafia in your eyes (you did say this) and WHY? (elaborate)?



Spiffy is either leading or attempting to lead town. This tells us one of three things. 1) he's mafia trying to lead town to it's doom, something which occurs more often that you'd think. 2) he's a fairly useless role who knows that he would best be spent attracting a nightkill by leading town. 3) he's a fairly useful role who wants mafia to think he's 2) so that he's nightkilled as late as possible. Essentially, we know nothing about Spiffy's role from this. Whoo. I personally believe that you should always be cautious of town leaders and never fully trust them (meaning, make your own decisions and don't let the decisions of the town leader dictate your own). At this point, nobody has enough information to make a completely intelligent decision, but you have to use a mix of your gut along with weird things others have posted to find SOMETHING that seems strange. It's extremely hard on day 1, but as the day goes on, i'd assume there's SOMETHING you can find. I agree, it is near impossible to say something definite on the subject

von addressed the former part of this. There are variations to bussing that can work early, but I agree that going to far as to push lynches on scumbuddies on the first couple days is generally not a good idea.

I never said defending yourself was scummy. I just asserted that pointing the finger right back at people who accuse you is childish. Not scummy, mind you readers, pretty neutral in fact, but childish.

I addressed that this is the most logical conclusion in my post, and have made reference to that fact multiple times. While you may claim it is childish (likely in an attempt to weaken my perception), you never addressed why the logic presented in the post is incorrect, and as such why the conclusion is incorrect

I jumped to no conclusion. I said myself that I didn't bring this up the first time I saw you behave this way, which was the bussing incident that you are obsessing over.

How am I obsessing over the bussing incident when you are the one to point it out? What the hell lol. You kept pushing me on the topic and I responded, that is in no way obsessing and is a gross exageration as to what occurred. I succinctly responded to why there should be no merit with regards to that point in post #109

It was only when I noticed a pattern, and over the course of a few hours that I said anything. If that's not worth mentioning then I'm not sure you want us talking at all. Also you're being pretty dramatic about a whopping 3 votes.

You instantly responded with a post that the crier is clearly bad, when such a conclusion shouldn't be made. And I am unwilling to have these votes on me due to the already bandwagonning nature of many of them


This is just kind of rude. Glass houses maybe, but calling out people for "I'm scum, no YOU'RE scum" happens in every game so it seems fair. On the other hand, please don't insult my methods just because I think that forecasting such thoughts makes no sense. As buttered said, it would be wiser to look for those thoughts in others... which I have with you.

I am free to insult whatever methods I see fit (where did I even insult them, lol, seems like quite a bit of inference on your part). Calling out someone for not backing up there points is entirely legitimate, because your claim seems rather unsubstantiated outside of the fact that me thinking about the game to such an extent feels "off"

I'll try to be neutral because it helps no one to get in a tiffy about scum hunting, but I'm not sure that my narrative is wrong so far.[/B]

Honestly von, for someone trying to call me out for what you perceive to be ad hominem, you've done nothing but return the same. Attack my argument, point out where I have gone wrong, and I'll be more than glad to reconsider. But you haven't really attempted to dispute anything I've said.

 

[rssp1]

idk how to quote quotes sorry guys
let's hope I don't fail the formatting

Sure, it made sense in your head but judging by everyone's reaction to it, nobody understood what you were thinking. You could've just said what you said here the first time and I doubt any problem would have arisen. Is it my fault for not being that explicit? Likely. I don't think it excuses a witchhunt

I don't feel like a majority of those posts were like a witch hunt. They were applying pressure to you based on points that seemed weak/strange in your arguments. If there's one thing I 100% agree with, it's that you did seem to overreact to what others said about you, most of the time.

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There can be; starting a lynch on your own member or even strongly advocating for it can gain some serious towncred for you, and it's especially useful if used on a teammate who will likely be lynched anyways. On paper, it seems horrifically stupid, but you might be surprised how often it works out for the mafia. It is stupid.

When executed properly, it works really well. I don't think this is something that both of us should spend large amounts of time arguing, though, so we should probably end this discussion.

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From what i've seen, nobody is dismissing your arguments. Everyone who disagrees with them explicitly states that they do and most explain why they disagree. This was in response to von, whose initial reaction was to state that me thinking about the game in such a manner was to claim I was mafia, and Spiffy, who said that I proved his point that we should clearly vote without substantiating how I proved his point

Didn't von explain why he thought what he did? Whether or not you like what he said is irrelevant, it's whether he actually brought up evidence to support his points. IDR what spiffy said exactly so I can't comment on that. Spiffy if this is true it'd be gr8 if you could add some more evidence to what you were saying. (If it's not ignore me i'm sorry)

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You can't expect everyone to be mind readers. Almost nobody (if not nobody) understood your true meaning behind the post you made, which caused this whole issue in the first place. You're obviously allowed to be annoyed, it's just that some people may see it as scummy. There's not very much you can do about that but argue that your annoyance is a natural reaction. there's nothing to address here, so much as I think this is you thinking out loud (which is cool)

I do that a lot. I don't see any reason not to unless you're revealing information that you don't want the scum to know.

 

[rssp1]

damn that showed up differently in the preview
oh well the lines did their function anyways