Feature of Jan 15th

[Pidgeot500]

I added a bunch of what Kamex and Kikuichimonji said early that I guess wasn't fully implemented; notice the significantly larger "Other Differences" section. I put PP rollover in a separate section, rather than grouping it with Wrap, since it's bulky yet not especially strategically relevant like the other Wrap info is, and grouped it with a note on how PP is deducted from multi-turn moves. I also added a whole new section for "Moves in which Multiple Instances of Damage Occur", which just states: "Multi-hit and partial trapping moves always do the same amount of damage each hit; that is, whether or not it's a CH, and the damage dealt as a result of that calculation, is only done once, on the first turn", but if anyone can think of a better place to put that, please do.

This what I didn't implement:

(Kamex)

"A lot of times, the game will display the wrong type effectiveness messages. Most of the time it seems that if up against a dual-type the effectiveness message only consider's the pokemon's second type. This was fixed in Stadium."
There was plenty opportunity for this to be implemented by Vineon/etc., and no one did; I'm guessing the reason is that this has no strategic relevance (and it isn't even fully understood). So rather than making a whole new section for it, I've elected to disclude it.

"Bide works much like Counter in accumulating damage and how it not always being reset can make it do a lot more harm than it should."
I wrote up a brief description for Bide; if you can, describe how you would incorporate this into that (verbatim). Shoot, I said verbatim =(

"Disable gives a duration length of 1-7 which results in a move being disabled for 0-6 turns."
Can you explain this better/differently, possibly in terms of how it differs from GSC/RS?

"Leech seed draining can exceed the pokemon's current HP."
Same as Disable--can you explain what you mean by this, or how it's relevant?

"Light Screen, Reflect double the user's defense rather than (I believe what I've heard is it halves the user's defense and quarters the opponent's attack? at any rate it's different in RBY)"
Right now the description is "Both moves are permanent until you switch out. They do not only last 2-5 turns and they are cancelled if you switch. A Critical Hit will also ignore them and Haze cancels them." How would you edit this to incorporate what you're describing, and if possible could you research in more detail the nature of that difference?

"The base PP of Struggle is 10."
I don't understand the significance of this, could you elaborate on where this is coming from?

(Kikuichimonji)

"For individual moves, there’s a lot of inconsistency. Some of them are brief phrases “Does not confuse” but others include the subject “it,” “it” referring to the move in question."
This would require a lot of editing, and I'm not sure what the specifications are.

"Substitute blocks primary status moves, like Thunder Wave and Sleep Powder. It does not block direct confusion moves, like Confuse Ray. It does not block secondary status, like paralysis from Body Slam or Thunderbolt. It does block secondary confusion effects, like Confusion or Psybeam. However, on Netbattle this is glitched and Body Slam can still paralyze through Substitute, and visa-versa for Psybeam. Since I'm not entirely sure on whether this is supposed to be intended for Netbattle or cart mechanics, I'm not entirely sure how to word it."
You're incorrect; see Kamex's RBYStuff file. Wait, actually, looking over this post, you seem to be contradicting yourself; you probably made a mental typo. In any case, check out that file and check out the current description of Substitute, and then let me know if it needs fixing.

Also, I even added Counter and Whirlwind (though as Vineon said, they don't really matter), since there was room for it, but any other SCMS editors can feel free to edit those out if they really think it doesn't make sense. Counter CH'ing is just cool, so that's kind why I added it (I've seen it happen in my Blue cart), and Whirlwind for consistency. =\ Someone could group them into that "Useless" section, if they have the time to set that up.

 

[Kamex]

There was plenty opportunity for this to be implemented by Vineon/etc., and no one did; I'm guessing the reason is that this has no strategic relevance (and it isn't even fully understood). So rather than making a whole new section for it, I've elected to disclude it.

I am thinking that it's something people who know nothing about RBY and fight each other over a link battle should be aware of and thus not wonder what the hell is going on when they encounter it. And it's been said several times that the guide is supposed to be "perfect."

Bide

I believe what happens is both of them accumulate damage by checking the last-amount-of-damage-done, which isn't reset by switching etc.

Disable

Duration length was increased uniformly by 1 in GSC. Don't know if it's the same in RSE.

Leech seed

If a Chansey has 17 HP and is seeded, its HP will drain to 0 but the opposer will nontheless get 703*0.0625 = 43 HP back, whereas in GSC it'll get 17 HP back.

Light Screen

"Both moves double your defense (rather than halving the opponent's attack), which can result in rollover if the stat is 512 or higher without their effect. They last until you switch out or Haze is used. (In GSC, they last 5 turns, are not cancelled by switching, and are unaffected by Haze.) A Critical Hit will also ignore them."

I don't understand the significance of this, could you elaborate on where this is coming from?

http://www.retrogames.com/cartlist/saveedit.htm


Note that the CH probability can be at most 99.6%, and change "they will ignore any stat change you and your opponent might have, beneficial or otherwise" to "they will use your and your opponent's original stats for damage calculation" -- this will clearly answer the question "What about changes from Transform?" whereas the latter would be vague on that point.

This allows Counter to counter back damage that is up to double the user's HP. Think Explosion and Selfdestruct.

Somewhat misleading. The maximum damage that Counter can counter back is 65535, in the case of a Horn Drill breaking a substitute. Plus, if you had a Lv5 Chansey behind a substitute that got hit with a Submission or something...

You do not need to take a turn to recharge if you KO a Pokémon using Hyper Beam. If you do not KO, you will need a turn to recharge as usual. You also do not need to recharge if you break a substitute.

"You will not have to recharge if you KO the opponent, break a substitute, or if the opponent attacks you with a partial trapping move."

Roar

is 99.6 accurate


Breaking a sub with a draining move will result in no HP gain and hiding behind one won't change the effectiveness of Bide, Counter, or partial trapping moves.


Everything removed by Haze (also, Mist) is removed from both users, except in a gameboy battle where the user won't have any major status ailments removed.

Rather than mimicking the last move your opponent used it will mimic one of his 4 moves randomly. There is no restriction to this. It will learn any of your opponent's 4 moves including a move you already have as well.

"Rather than mimicking the last move your opponent used (along with 5 PP for it) it will mimic one of his 4 moves randomly, with no restrictions at all on what it will copy and no effect on the move's PP."


Gust, Night Shade and Seismic Toss: periods are needed after their info.

For multi-turn moves such as Dig and Hyper Beam, PP is only deducted on the turn of use.

For multi-turn moves such as Dig and Sky Attack **not Hyper Beam; the recharge turn for it can be skipped**, PP is deducted after it is fully used.


And this info should be separated from the PP roll over stuff.


About the PP rollover, try this:
"If a move is used when it has 0 PP, its PP will become 63 and it will have maximum PP-ups applied to it after it's used. The only way it is possible to attack with a move that has 0 PP is if the game automatically selects it for use. In later generations, an additional check for PP was added, so if a move is ever selected and has 0 PP, it will result in a message saying there is no PP for the move.

PP rollover will happen under the following situations:
-A pokemon uses the last PP of a partial trapping move and the opponent switches out before the duration ends, causing the move to be automatically used again.
-A pokemon uses the last PP of Hyper Beam and has the recharge turn negated by the use of a partial trapping move, resulting in Hyper Beam automatically being used during the next turn.
-Either of the above scenarios happening with the last PP of Metronome or Mimic.
-A frozen pokemon gets defrosted during a round before its turn passes, thus automatically attacking with whatever attack was last selected (or its topmost attack if it was just switched in, since that's what the attack selection is reset to by switching). If the used move has 0 PP, it will roll over. From this, it is possible for any move to get 63 PP."


Edit: yeah and Sky Attack isn't a high-ch move.

 

[Pidgeot500]

I am thinking that it's something people who know nothing about RBY and fight each other over a link battle should be aware of and thus not wonder what the hell is going on when they encounter it. And it's been said several times that the guide is supposed to be "perfect."

"Perfect" only as far as strategically relevant information, however. This isn't really a technical document, it's meant to help introduce people to competitive RBY by explaining differences in battle mechanics. Hmm... it is true, actually, that someone who is playing over actual RBY rather than a PBS would notice this and be surprised though yeah... and Smogon is modeled with the carts in mind, and should be. Right, added this.

I believe what happens is both of them accumulate damage by checking the last-amount-of-damage-done, which isn't reset by switching etc.

But didn't you say in your file that if the opposing Pokemon uses a non-physical attack on the Biding Pokemon, then that still allows the Biding Pokemon to continue to accumulate damage? (That isn't the same as Counter, of course...) Edit: Put in a brief sentence at the end of Bide to account for this until I can understand it enough to edit it better, or someone who understands it does...

Duration length was increased uniformly by 1 in GSC. Don't know if it's the same in RSE.

Is there any way to find out what this should be for RS (considering I never play RS I wouldn't know...)? I'm not sure how to phrase it otherwise.

If a Chansey has 17 HP and is seeded, its HP will drain to 0 but the opposer will nontheless get 703*0.0625 = 43 HP back, whereas in GSC it'll get 17 HP back.

Ah, I see.. added this.

"Both moves double your defense (rather than halving the opponent's attack), which can result in rollover if the stat is 512 or higher without their effect. They last until you switch out or Haze is used. (In GSC, they last 5 turns, are not cancelled by switching, and are unaffected by Haze.) A Critical Hit will also ignore them."

Right, OK, this is incorporated.

http://www.retrogames.com/cartlist/saveedit.htm

Aye, but since that's never relevant as far as actual (unsharked) gameplay, I don't know that it really deserves inclusion. Maybe in the RBY Pokedex, instead of "-" for PP, though...

Note that the CH probability can be at most 99.6%, and change "they will ignore any stat change you and your opponent might have, beneficial or otherwise" to "they will use your and your opponent's original stats for damage calculation" -- this will clearly answer the question "What about changes from Transform?" whereas the latter would be vague on that point.

Can you elaborate on which this is? Because 1/256 probability is subtracted after the probability of CH is calculated (as either Base Speed / 64 or Base Speed / 256), with base speed as incorporated into those formulas capped at 64 / 256 (effectively), or because there's a second calculation done which gives it a 1/256 chance of not CH'ing? I'd like to know the details because I'm thinking this might be included well by adjusting the "~99.6% Accuracy" section to "1/256 " (or "~.4%") " Uncertainty".

Somewhat misleading. The maximum damage that Counter can counter back is 65535, in the case of a Horn Drill breaking a substitute. Plus, if you had a Lv5 Chansey behind a substitute that got hit with a Submission or something...

what awesome how did I not know this (referring to Countering OHKO's) Also it wouldn't do 65534 or anything due to a rollover offset, would it?

As far as you mentioning Chansey, but didn't we discuss this earlier over PM and you said that the max damage any attack can do (and thus half the max Counterable from behind a sub) is 999 or the Pokemon's max HP (OHKO's being the exception to the rule, apparently)?

"You will not have to recharge if you KO the opponent, break a substitute, or if the opponent attacks you with a partial trapping move."

I didn't forget the partial trapping move, but then it occurred to me, why would you any begin with assumption that you would have to recharge even though the technique is one which produces in the target a special state in which the target can't move? Nothing like this exists in RS, and it doesn't violate a general rule of RBY battle mechanics and the priority of recharge (or if it does and I'm missing it though, let me know). An even less likely assumption would be that the turn would be delayed until after the trapping is over, and that's the only one that would have any strategic relevance, too.

Is 99.6 accurate :3

I would have assumed Roar would have that factor anyway, right, since it's an attack which targets the opponent, and the only ones that don't are Swift and I believe Bide + Transform right? I mean, you might as well put that Thunderbolt's only 99.6.% accuracy.

Breaking a sub with a draining move will result in no HP gain and hiding behind one won't change the effectiveness of Bide, Counter, or partial trapping moves.

OK, added a line about draining move (and addressed Bide/Counter in a roundabout/indirect way). For partial trapping moves... hmm, so they didn't prevent the user from switching out in GSC when they had a sub up? Assuming not, and adding this.

Everything removed by Haze (also, Mist) is removed from both users, except in a gameboy battle where the user won't have any major status ailments removed.

Hmm, isn't this already addressed in the description?

"Rather than mimicking the last move your opponent used (along with 5 PP for it) it will mimic one of his 4 moves randomly, with no restrictions at all on what it will copy and no effect on the move's PP."

So it gives you more than 5 PP in GSC/RS? Sorry to ask to clarify this, but I don't know much about GSC so I would want to know how to incorporate this (it seems you're just rewording it more scientifically, otherwise, so I'm guessing the PP is different).

Gust, Night Shade and Seismic Toss: periods are needed after their info.

Fixed this.

For multi-turn moves such as Dig and Sky Attack **not Hyper Beam; the recharge turn for it can be skipped**, PP is deducted after it is fully used.

I had phrased it using "the turn of use", since that seems a much more efficient way to describe it, and I think people should be able to figure out what that means.

And this info should be separated from the PP roll over stuff.

The whole section is "PP Rollover / Deduction", so that fits in there; it does have its own paragraph.

It's really late and I'm very tired, starting to have difficulty phrasing clearly, so I'll leave Kamex's description of PP Rollover to the rest of you, or I'll get to it late tomorrow night or Thursday since I'm essentially busy all day tomorrow. =\

Edit in response to edit: Oh, it is in GSC/RS? That explains what people were saying about Sky Attack a while back as a NB bug... man, that would make Pidgeot even more uber, wouldn't it. Added this.

Edit #2: Also, if people are having a problem with the way I'm editing this, or with me doing all this work, let me know... I'm just helping to address criticism.

 

[Kamex]

But didn't you say in your file that if the opposing Pokemon uses a non-physical attack on the Biding Pokemon, then that still allows the Biding Pokemon to continue to accumulate damage?

Yes, because use of such a move will not reset the last-amount-of-damage-done.

Is there any way to find out what this should be for RS (considering I never play RS I wouldn't know...)? I'm not sure how to phrase it otherwise.

GSC is the odd one out on Rage yet a full description of it is included anyway. Just say that a move is disabled for 0-6 turns. And it causes rage to build too.

Aye, but since that's never relevant as far as actual (unsharked) gameplay, I don't know that it really deserves inclusion. Maybe in the RBY Pokedex, instead of "-" for PP, though...

Ok, just make sure it's listed as 1 in later generations. See this is where a problem might happen; what if someone notices the difference and it's not noted anywhere? Did you forget to add a 0 or is it actually different? You could just add it under the other section.

~99.6%

Same as accuracy; maximum is 255 but the check is a less than.

what awesome how did I not know this (referring to Countering OHKO's) Also it wouldn't do 65534 or anything due to a rollover offset, would it?

As far as you mentioning Chansey, but didn't we discuss this earlier over PM and you said that the max damage any attack can do (and thus half the max Counterable from behind a sub) is 999 or the Pokemon's max HP (OHKO's being the exception to the rule, apparently)?

Counter and ohkos are "exceptions" because the 999 cap is in the BDF, and their damage isn't figured out from the BDF...

It makes sense that Counter would roll over at 65536 but I don't know. I'll try and check and make sure.

I didn't forget the partial trapping move, but then it occurred to me, why would you any begin with assumption that you would have to recharge even though the technique is one which produces in the target a special state in which the target can't move? Nothing like this exists in RS, and it doesn't violate a general rule of RBY battle mechanics and the priority of recharge (or if it does and I'm missing it though, let me know). An even less likely assumption would be that the turn would be delayed until after the trapping is over, and that's the only one that would have any strategic relevance, too.

The recharge turn is negated even if the ptm misses.

Roar

Current description suggests it has 85 acc.

OK, added a line about draining move (and addressed Bide/Counter in a roundabout/indirect way). For partial trapping moves... hmm, so they didn't prevent the user from switching out in GSC when they had a sub up? Assuming not, and adding this.

Substitute blocks (some of?) the secondary effect in GSC.

Hmm, isn't this already addressed in the description?

Current description suggests it only happens to the opponent. Mist and Focus Energy are listed as "etc."

So it gives you more than 5 PP in GSC/RS? Sorry to ask to clarify this, but I don't know much about GSC so I would want to know how to incorporate this (it seems you're just rewording it more scientifically, otherwise, so I'm guessing the PP is different).

Mimic gets overwritten with the copied move with 5 current PP which is completely separate from the PP of mimic. Everything runs of the current PP of Mimic in RBY.

I had phrased it using "the turn of use", since that seems a much more efficient way to describe it, and I think people should be able to figure out what that means.

This is a bit of a problem because such moves have turns of use...

 

[Pidgeot500]

here we go

Yes, because use of such a move will not reset the last-amount-of-damage-done.

Oh, yes, I see... it's kind of complex how that's ordered, but, I believe I've worded this correctly.

GSC is the odd one out on Rage yet a full description of it is included anyway. Just say that a move is disabled for 0-6 turns. And it causes rage to build too.

Done.

Ok, just make sure it's listed as 1 in later generations. See this is where a problem might happen; what if someone notices the difference and it's not noted anywhere? Did you forget to add a 0 or is it actually different? You could just add it under the other section.

I don't think it'd really be a "problem", since it's not directly or indirectly relevant to legitimate cart mechanics in any sense, though it would be an inconsistency. Also, I can't change this, it requires uploading to a mySQL database, you'd just want to make sure this is in Kikuichimonji's topic about move descriptions/adjustments, which will be eventually used as the source to incorporate RBY stuff into the Pokedex, from what I understand (I'm pretty sure you know this).

Same as accuracy; maximum is 255 but the check is a less than.

All right. For reference, this is what I've replaced (that is, taken out):

<dt>~99.6% Accuracy</dt>
<dd>There is no 100% accurate move in RBY that targets your opponent. In fact there is always a 1/256 chance that any attack will miss (~0.4%). The only exception is Swift, which cannot possibly miss.</dd>

Counter and ohkos are "exceptions" because the 999 cap is in the BDF, and their damage isn't figured out from the BDF...

It makes sense that Counter would roll over at 65536 but I don't know. I'll try and check and make sure.

Awesome.

The recharge turn is negated even if the ptm misses.

Oh... odd. Added this.

Current description suggests it has 85 acc.

Ah. Was that entirely me? (Fixed.)

Substitute blocks (some of?) the secondary effect in GSC.

Right, good.

Current description suggests it only happens to the opponent. Mist and Focus Energy are listed as "etc."

... Wouldn't "clearing all Pokemon stat changes / temporary states from the 2 Pokemon" cover that?

Mimic gets overwritten with the copied move with 5 current PP which is completely separate from the PP of mimic. Everything runs of the current PP of Mimic in RBY.

Oh, so it doesn't in other generations =\ done.

This is a bit of a problem because such moves have turns of use...

I'm pretty sure most people will understand that when someone specifically mentions "the turn of use of the multi-turn move" that they're referring to the turn that goes like "Pokemon used move!" instead of the random turns of digging holes, flying up high, gathering energy/sunlight, recharging... Anyone who's following this care to provide a casual opinion on whether they picked up on that?

know I haven't looked into that detailed description you offered earlier about rollover, probably will either much later tonight, or tomorrow (no classes...).

 

[Hipmonlee]

PP Rollover / Deduction

If the opponent switches out before the turn duration ends, Wrap will automatically be used against the incoming pokémon, deducting an additional PP from the move. If at such a time Wrap has 0 PP, Wrap will still be used against the incoming pokémon. After that use, the current PP of Wrap will roll over to 63, and full PP ups will be applied to it.

Even if Wrap misses, it will negate the recharge turn normally required for Hyper Beam. Additionally, if the user of Wrap attacks before the user of Hyper Beam during a recharge turn and the use of Wrap misses, the user of Hyper Beam will automatically use Hyper Beam during that turn. If at such a time Hyper Beam has 0 PP, Hyper Beam will still be used, and afterwards its current PP will roll over to 63, and full PP ups will be applied to it.

For multi-turn moves such as Dig and Hyper Beam, PP is only deducted on the turn of use.

Uhh This doesnt make a lot of sense to me.. You need to make it clearer what you are talking about at the start..

Have a nice day

 

[Roy]

i'm a tad confused as well

 

[Pidgeot500]

i'm a tad confused as well

A major part of this is probably because the quoting system with vB doesn't let you do quotes within quotes, so we reference something that is quoted without naming it, and then reference the reference, etc... I have to scroll up to read previous posts to understand the thread of conversation, I know.

 

[leafgreen386]

A major part of this is probably because the quoting system with vB doesn't let you do quotes within quotes, so we reference something that is quoted without naming it, and then reference the reference, etc... I have to scroll up to read previous posts to understand the thread of conversation, I know.

Actually, I think you can change that so that it does do quotes within quotes. Not entirely sure though, but I think it was an option.