1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Fixing up DW OU

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by Matthew, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,996
    I want to take over DW OU. It's really that simple. If people are playing the metagame and it's on our server then they deserve to play a metagame that isn't just a straight-up shit show (exaggerating). This isn't going to be a suspect test or anything, this is just me with control over the tier, banning and unbanning shit that the DW OU players think are ruining the tier (if they provide good enough reasoning, that is). It requires no effort on any of your parts, bar me, so I can't think of a reason why anyone would object.

    I want to make the tier at least somewhat balanced, and rather than having these changes I'm suggesting just happen Aldaron has asked for me to post a thread first.

    I want to do three things with DW OU as of right now:
    Ban Soul Dew
    Ban Chandelure
    Unban Excadrill

    The banishment of Soul Dew I think is a solid move -- we know how ridiculous Lati@s are with it, and not a damn thing has changed since last generation when they were blatantly too strong with their unique item. Rather than removing two very useful and helpful pokemon in the tier, banning the item makes the most sense.

    Banning Chandelure is something I was rolling around for a while before. I can see the uses in having it (team preview, more strategy, etc) but after reading the DW OU thread and talking to some people about it it seems that Chandelure is honestly just too much of a presence. With it literally being Wobb 2.0 with a high SpA stat and decent enough Speed Chandelure can easily find a situation where it can set up and then plow through teams. The thing is you can't really counter it either, because of Shadow Tag.

    However it's not all banning all the time. With Chandelure being removed from the metagame I feel that Excadrill is now going to be easier to deal with. There is no fear in using Band Infernape as a revenge killer (pretty sweet one at that), and techniloom can also stop Excadrill by itself as well. I've also been told that Excadrill is fairly manageable in the DW OU tier; I trust the people who told me.
  2. Aldaron

    Aldaron wu tang clan ain't nothin to fuck wit
    is a Tournament Directoris a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administrator
    OU and IRC Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,498
    I'm fine with this and will go ahead and implement these changes after a little bit if there are no major non pedantic concerns.
  3. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,034
    Not sure I'd go with a full unbanning of Excadrill. Maybe throw it in some kind of limbo for the time being. What does it get? An extra check I guess? Not sure if that's ever been enough to make a mon OU

    From what I've seen and experienced, Serperior is pretty crazy, but I think you really don't want to ban a DW mon unless it's just absolutely necessary (like banning chandy). Since, you know, DW mons are the entire reason for playing DW OU.
  4. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,254
    I don't think anyone would be opposed to this as we don't have suspect testing anymore and Aldaron has set up a ladder based on "preference" already (not complaining here). I agree with a Soul Dew (or Latis) ban, but I don't quite follow the unban Excadrill logic. Would a DW metagame without Chandelure and with the addition of a check (Techniloom) be different enough to warrant a place in OU for Excadrill?
  5. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    I don't object as long as GenEmp has some serious oversight. Putting one person in charge of the tiers was what caused the desire for suspect tests in the first place, and that was when reputable admins like Jumpman and Aeolus were running things. This doesn't seem like much of an issue due to staff restructuring though. My only request is that there's a PR thread kept up to date regarding tiering choices and explanations of them.

    I've always thought it was dumb to have the banlist from OU carry over into DW, which is why I play DW on PO instead of our server. Over there it actually has traction as a legit and fun tier. I'm glad someone is stepping up to push the issue here, even if it is in this kind of fashion.

    Ban Soul Dew: yeah
    Unban Exca: yeah.

    Ban Chandelure: I disagree with this one. People see Shadow Tag and say "sweet, we can just ban it and nobody will care", even though ST Chandelure exists solely to counter Ferrothorn (who is everywhere because of Soul Dew Lati@s) and Techni-Loom. Chandelure isn't "literally like Wobb 2.0", it has terrible defenses and terrible defensive typing and it's insanely difficult to switch in. It might literally be the easiest pokemon in the entire tier to set up on, especially if Excadrill becomes legal again. SD Excadrill, CM Keldeo, CM Lati@s, DD Dragonite, any auto-weather mon except Abomasnow, any Shell Smash user, there are tons of legit options to use to punish Chandelure users.

    p.s. thanks for bringing more attention to this great tier
  6. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,947
    Infernape wasn't a driving concern the first time Excadrill was unbanned. The only time you could get close to an OHKO was if you were running CB and mixed LO was its most popular set by far.

    Also, careful on using word of mouth to unban something as controversial as Drill. The same word of mouth could have kept Excadrill and Thundurus in OU. Soul Dew and Chandelure are too obvious to ignore, and the former only faces Breloom as an extra check. He admittedly does make dealing with Drill a lot easier, but he neither dethrones him nor resolves the inherent problems having Excadrill in an OU metagame would bring. This is going to require a greater consensus.
  7. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,190
    I agree with the 3 things proposed in the op. As someone who despises extra bans Chandelure's just too insane with Shadow Tag (however let me make it clear that I'm all for testing ST Chand in OU whenever/if it gets released). I agree with the Exca unban personally but like as others stated it's going to need more attention. Will DW Breloom and Ditto (who tbh is somewhat underwhelming despite all the hype around it) be enough to keep Exca away? Or will he still remain (arguably) broken?

    What I'm more interested is, though, if Thundurus is still broken in DW OU.

    EDIT: kd24 expressed interest in co-leading DW OU. I think this is a good idea as solely relying on public opinion could be disastrous.
  8. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,312
    its true, but mostly because id feel more comfortable having 2 leaders in charge of a meta, especially one where the original sole leader admittingly doesnt play much.

    is this ok with you gen?
  9. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,996
    Sure why not
  10. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,996
    KD24 and I decided to kick off the tier with these changes:

    Soul Dew being removed
    Excadrill unbanned
    Thundurus unbanned

    We left chandelure out, and I'm going to keep it left out for a little until I've developed more of an understanding with the metagame (really though my experiences with Chandelure haven't really been all that great so far). Either way, I'll post here and in the thread in DST whenever a change occurs.
  11. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,312
    for those who want to complain - you should know that im predisposed to banning as very little as possible - soul dew was an obvious change but in a meta where more checks exist, its only fair that we retest exca and thund - if they prove to be broken, it will be very easy to get rid of them, but lets not deny there are checks for both

    chandelure falls under the same category, there are compelling reasons for its tiering either way, but as of right now, and with our little meta experience, it seems ridiculous to just get rid of it. expect updates on chandelure, as well as final desicions on thund and exca soon
  12. Blue Kirby

    Blue Kirby Never back down.
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    2,840
    Seems like pretty sound logic to me. This metagame appears to lend itself to being a lot less ban-happy, so this is a good place to kick things off. I'm pretty confident Gen and kd24 will be do this tier justice, so I'm posting to throw my faith behind them. Also, I really want to give Serperior a whirl. :)
  13. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,338
    Pack Tyranitar -> dead Chandelure.

    Either way, I know I don't have any real say in this, but given that Chandelure is being given a chance instead of being banned right away, I'm glad Genny and kd24 are leading this with a level head.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)