Floatzel (Minor Changes)+

Colonel M

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(Don't worry, I'm getting on the DPPt Lead topic after this one)

Somewhat reserving but I'm working on this right now. Here's what I'm going to add:

- Ice Punch will be the new option over Ice Fang
- Re-write on some sets that are in first person (mostly just re-wording them, don't worry Jump)
- Adding Aqua Tail to Other Options
- Adding Counters. Rotom appliances and Shaymin-S in particular.

While I'm working on this you may discuss other sets. I really don't think a Mixed Floatzel in the rain is stupid but perhaps it is now with the presence of Ice Punch. But otherwise go for it.

---

[SET]
name: Dantzel
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Ice Punch
move 3: Return
move 4: Rain Dance
item: Life Orb / Damp Rock / Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Floatzel is a fast Water-type Pokemon that can cause quite a bit of destruction in the rain. The rain acts similar to an Agility and a Howl (for Waterfall that is), which is why little Speed investment is necessary. After the rain is set up, it’s time for Floatzel to wreak havoc upon its opponents. Waterfall will be the main Attack for Floatzel, especially in the rain. Ice Punch adds coverage while stopping Dragon and Grass-types from absorbing the boosted Waterfall. Return is your best weapon against opposing Water-types and complements Waterfall for nearly perfect coverage.</p>

<p>Life Orb is the best option for this set. Floatzel’s rather lackluster Attack and low base power moves make Life Orb appealing. Damp Rock is useful for making the rain last as long as possible. Though it pales in comparison to using Life Orb or Damp Rock, Leftovers offer Floatzel a little more durability.</p>

<p>16 Speed EVs are best for our flotation sac friend. This gives 270 Speed before a Rain Dance, just enough to outpace Adamant Heracross. After the rain is present, Floatzel has enough Speed to outrun Timid Choice Scarf Gengar. The HP EVs give Floatzel a little durability and offers less recoil from Life Orb. The rest of the EVs are allocated into Defense.</p>

[SET]
name: Bulk UP!
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Return / Crunch / Brick Break
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Floatzel lacks Swords Dance; however, having Bulk Up still gives Floatzel the Attack boost that it wants. After using Bulk Up, Floatzel will obtain 417 Attack and 222 Defense. Once Floatzel has used Bulk Up once or twice, it should follow up by attacking. Waterfall is Floatzel’s main attack while Ice Punch picks off Dragon and Grass-types. Return pairs well with Waterfall and offers good coverage. Crunch gives Floatzel an advantage against Gengar and the Rotom appliances. Brick Break is your best move against Empoleon, whom otherwise resists Water, Ice, Normal, and Dark.</p>

<p>Ice Punch isn’t necessary on this set. It is easy to juggle different moves with Waterfall. Waterfall, Return, and Brick Break offer near-perfect coverage, barring the rare Shedinja. Crunch is also a fine option alongside Waterfall and Return to harm Ghost and Psychic-types if Empoleon is of little concern. Brick Break is a nice move though as it prevents Reflect from impairing Floatzel’s sweep. Rain Dance support is always welcome if only to allow Floatzel to invest more in its HP or Defense stat.</p>

<p>Life Orb makes Floatzel more like a kamikaze weasel. It also gives Floatzel the necessary boost to its acceptable Attack stat. Leftovers is a fine option if you feel that Floatzel can survive a couple of hits after using Bulk Up or if sandstorm and hail are a concern.</p>

<p>The Speed EVs outpace Timid Gengar due to the fact that the Pokemon that reign in Floatzel’s Speed tier have Thunderbolt most of the time. The HP EVs give Floatzel 319 HP, a Life Orb number. The leftover EVs are placed in Defense since Floatzel is using Bulk Up.</p>

[SET]
name: Kristy…
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Bulk Up
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Baton Pass
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Floatzel is one of the few Pokemon that can Baton Pass Bulk Up boosts. The weasel’s high Speed and access to Taunt help this set successfully pass the boosts. Since Whirlwind, Roar, and Perish Song are common ways to prevent Pokemon from Baton Passing boosts, Taunt helps patch that problem. Unfortunately, Zapdos can completely stop this set with either a STAB Thunderbolt or Roar. It puts Floatzel into a risky situation as to whether Baton Pass the boosts to later be phased out or to suffer from Thunderbolt when attempting to use Taunt. When considering this set, a Pokemon with either Soundproof or Suction Cups is highly recommended to prevent your boosts from being eliminated.</p>

<p>Remember that Floatzel is a team player and not intended to be a sweeper. This is why the EVs are placed into HP instead of Attack. Floatzel should only retaliate when it feels that it is absolutely necessary to. Otherwise, Floatzel should simply use Baton Pass to escape from harm.</p>

<p>Recipients of the boosts are of concern. Electivire sounds very appealing since Floatzel can catch Zapdos off-guard and allow Electivire to receive a free Speed boost alongside the Attack and Defense boosts from Floatzel. Metagross is another excellent Pokemon to receive the boosts. It’s already massive Attack and Defense as well as access to Agility make Metagross a deadly threat.</p>

[SET]
name: MixDance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Surf
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Toxic / Ice Beam
item: Mystic Water
nature: Rash
evs: 240 Atk / 16 Spe / 252 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Floatzel is a surprisingly good Mixed Sweeper thanks to decent offensive stats and Rain Dance. This set works just like any other Rain Dancer; find a turn to Rain Dance and start inflicting pain. Surf is the primary STAB here, as it will outdamage Waterfall most of the time. The set is fairly simple; just hit the opponent on its weaker defensive stat. The final slot helps combat pokemon that resist Water attacks. Ice Beam will hit Breloom, Tangrowth, Salamence, and Dragonite hard, but will leave you lost against Water Pokemon. Toxic is Floatzel's best attempt at crippling Bulky Waters, as most of them can shrug off Hidden Power Electrics and unboosted Crunches and Returns all day but will hate the lingering effects of Toxic, barring those that have access to Rest and Sleep Talk.</p>

<p>With these EVs, Floatzel hits an amazing 540 Speed in the Rain, and 270 Speed to beat neutral Heracross even without rain. Mystic Water is the item of choice, since you are using only water attacks and Life Orb recoil will hurt Floatzel's ability to take priority moves.</p>

[SET]
name: CBFloatz
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Ice Punch
move 3: Crunch / Return
move 4: Brick Break
item: Choice Band
nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The ingredients to Choice Band are rather simple: a good movepool, acceptable Attack, and Speed. While Floatzel has an impressive Speed stat, its Attack is mediocre compared to the likes of Weavile or Metagross. Waterfall is Floatzel’s main attack, with Ice Punch falling close behind. Crunch damages Cresselia and the Rotom appliances while Return offers more power at the cost of not hitting anything for super effective damage. Brick Break isn’t exactly a necessary option; however, it decreases Floatzel’s chances of being walled by Empoleon.</p>

<p>Adamant isn’t a horrible option. It sacrifices Floatzel’s Speed (361 to 329) for more power (463 to 508). Fortunately, Floatzel will still outpace positive Speed base 100s by a single point. The increase of power is welcome but not necessary.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Aqua Tail is another STAB option that has a higher base power than Waterfall. Waterfall outclasses Aqua Tail though, as Waterfall has the nifty 20% chance of a flinch occurring as well as 100% accuracy. Aqua Jet is a priority move that Floatzel has access to; however, Floatzel is usually fast enough that it is almost redundant to use it. Pursuit can be added on the Choice Band set. Not many Pokemon flee from Floatzel though, so it should be considered carefully. Focus Punch can be used alongside Substitute, Waterfall, and Crunch. Speaking of Substitute, Liechi Berry and Substitute make a good set thanks to Floatzel’s high Speed.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Any set that plans to be used with rain should use 16 Speed EVs and a neutral nature. This gives Floatzel the capability of outpacing Adamant Heracross before and Timid Choice Scarf Gengar after the rain is activated. Otherwise, using enough Speed to outpace Timid Gengar without a Choice Scarf is the best option for Floatzel without rain support. Adamant with max Speed is fine for the Bulk Up set or the Choice Band set due to the fact that Floatzel will outspeed Timid Zapdos at the worst.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Floatzel is a fun Pokemon, especially when used correctly. Come on, it is wrapped by a friggin inner tube for crying out loud! Being the fastest Swift Swimmers is quite an accomplishment, and Floatzel doesn’t lack in the movepool department either. It even has a pretty good Special Attack stat to take advantage of Surf and Ice Beam. Being one of the few reliable Pokemon that can Baton Pass Bulk Up is something to also brag about, and Floatzel isn’t afraid to show it either.</p>

<p>Sweeping Floatzel needs some leeway though. It has problems, but many other Pokemon do as well. Aside from the usual bulky Water-types, Celebi is a problem for Floatzel, despite having Ice Punch and Crunch at its disposal. Its mediocre defensive stats don’t give Floatzel a lot of opportunities to switch into direct attacks either. If you can bypass these shortcomings, Floatzel is a powerful threat late-game with the rain boosting its Speed as well as Waterfall.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Bulky Waters are the best counters to Floatzel. Suicune brags as number one, as it can easily take a boosted Return and simply Calm Mind with very little worry about while doing so. Vaporeon has Water Absorb and access to Wish to prevent Floatzel from getting very far from damaging Vaporeon. Vaporeon commonly carries Hidden Power Electric, so Floatzel doesn’t want to try to stay in and use Bulk Up either. Gyarados has Intimidate to cut Floatzel's Attack and possibly force Floatzel to run in fear of Stone Edge or Earthquake. Milotic can easily Recover the damage and retaliate with Hidden Power Electric or repeated Surfs. Milotic commonly uses Rest and Sleep Talk as well thanks to Marvel Scale, thus making the weasel look unsatisfied rather than the usual joyous emotion. Empoleon walls almost all types of Floatzel thanks to Empoleon's typing.</p>

<p>Celebi is a good switch into Floatzel. Ice Punch will hurt from Floatzel after a few Bulk Ups or if boosted by Choice Band, but Celebi is bulky enough to usually take it and Grass Knot will severely damage Floatzel in the process. Unless Floatzel has a Life Orb, a Choice Band, or has used Bulk Up, Celebi isn’t very frightened of Floatzel. Tangrowth has higher Defense and access to the powders to cripple Floatzel. Cresselia has very little to fear from Floatzel since Crunch isn’t doing extreme damage to said Cresselia. Having Rest, Sleep Talk, and Charge Beam will eventually wear out Floatzel or force it to switch out.</p>
 
I don't like the Dantzel set at all, since Crunch and Ice Fang aren't doing shit to Bulky Waters (not that Floatzel can do much to those). Here is my suggestion:

[SET]
name: Rain Dance
move1: Rain Dance
move2: Surf
move3: Waterfall
move4: Toxic / Ice Beam
item: Mystic Water
nature: Rash
evs: 240 Atk / 16 Spe / 252 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Floatzel is a surprisingly good Mixed Sweeper thanks to decent offensive stats and Rain Dance. This set works just like any other Rain Dancer; find a turn to Rain Dance and start inflicting pain. Surf is the primary STAB here, as it will outdamage Waterfall even if both stats are maxed and positive nature. The set is fairly simple, just hit the opponent on its weaker defense stat. The final slot helps combat pokemon that resist Water attacks. Ice Beam will hit Breloom, Tangrowth, Salamence, and Dragonite well, but will leave you lost against Water Pokemon. Toxic is Floatzel's best attempt at crippling Bulky waters, as most of them can shrug off Hidden Power Electrics and unboosted Crunches all day but will hate the lingering effects of Toxic.</p>

<p> With these EVs, Floatzel hits an amazing 540 speed in the Rain, and 270 Speed to beat neutral Heracross before. Mystic Water is the item of choice, since you are using only water attacks and Life Orb recoil will hurt Floatzel's ability to take priority moves.</p>
 

Colonel M

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Guys, I think this analysis needs a revamp. IIRC it hasn't been updated in over a year and some of these threats are rarely used, etc. I'm going to sweep through this and modify some of the SET COMMENTS and experiment more with some Rain Dance sets, a SubPunch set, etc. Any qualms on this?
 
Aqua Jet / Substitute / Focus Punch / Quick Attack would make a good "Priority Floatzel" if you are interested. Anyway, Ill be more than happy to help. Just pm me anytime.
 
Idk KD24, I don't see that doing too much. Floatzel with no way to boost its attack and some weak priority moves. Focus Punch is cool I guess... but I don't see how it benefits him at all.

So Colonel M.... no discussion about Dantzel?
 

cim

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kd24 get your mind out of little cup

last slot return on mix rd floatzel?

Some people are smitten with Floatzel and its potential, as you can tell from the confidence associating a BL Pokémon with obviously more powerful threats. One thing is for sure, though—it is bound to be a fun Pokémon to use no matter who you are or how you decide to use it.
Did the person writing the analysis think BL was a tier people play? BL has nothing to do with power at all from the OU side. Anyhow since you're changing thinks anyway might as well fix the Opinion.
 

Colonel M

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Uh Chris, Jump wrote this analysis.

I'm not sure Raikou. I never liked the idea of two STABs unless for some odd reason it was absolutely necessary. In this case I'm a little confused myself. Return seems like a good option in slot 4 for added coverage otherwise Bulky Waters will laugh at you for the most part if you opt for Ice Beam.
 
Because Colonel M, Mixed Floatzel hits harder than the current one. Run any calcs... Surf is going to outdamage Waterfall anyway you put it. Therefore, the set gives you 306 Attack and 295 Special Attack boosted by Mystic Water and you just hit the weaker defense stats. Blissey is easily 2HKOed by Waterfall, Skarmory is OHKOed easily by Surf. I've tested it extensively. Ice Beam will outdamage Ice Punch any way you put it also, and isn't screwed by Tangrowth or Bulky Salamence's Intimidate.

Return is a shitty option to me because what is an unboosted Return gonna do to Milotic, Vaporeon, or Suicune? Shit damage. What is hidden Power Electric gonna do to Miltoic Vaporeon or Suicune.... shit damage. The only way Floatzel can increase his attack power is by Bulk up, which even still, Return will be doing shit damage and by that point your just better off using Kristy. That is why Toxic IMO is the best option, then something else on the team can benefit from an ailing Bulky Water (like a bulky DD Salamence or something). So if you want damage calcs on Life Orb Return vs. Bulky waters here they are:

Return vs. Max HP / Def Milotic - 26-31%
Return vs. 188 HP / Max Def Vaporeon - 27-32%
Return vs. Max HP / Def Bold Suicune - 20-24%
Return vs. 4 HP Suicune - 32-38%
Hidden Power Electric vs. Max HP Miltoic - 35-41%
Hidden Power Electric vs. 188 HP Vaporeon - 38-45%
Hidden Power Electric vs. Max HP Suicune - 36-43%
Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP Suicune - 47-51%

So yeah, not only is the damage output horrendous, but they all have recovery! So they sit on their asses and recover while you kill yourself with Life Orb Damage. Its just not a battle Floatzel is going to win. Also, going all water lets you run Mystic Water, which is 100% better than Life Orb in today's metagame because priority moves are everywhere and smart switching can wear you into range of Scizor's Bullet Punch which is one of the few things a full health Floatzel can take. Therefore, Toxic and Ice Beam ARE better options than any of his other moves.
 

Colonel M

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Technically Suicune doesn't have a recovery option. Regardless I'll look into this set extensively. The way you've put it I guess it is a viable option to add in the current analysis.
 
One more thing for you to look at. Remember the beast that is Mixdra? Take a look at this:

Floatzel stats with this EV spread:

Attack: 306
Speed: 270 (540)
Special Attack: 295

Mixdra with the same EV spread:

Attack: 286
Speed: 210 (420)
Special Attack: 317

Now, reverse the nature, make Mixdra Naughty and reverse the EVs:

Attack: 317 (+11)
Speed: 210 (-60 lol)
Special Attack: 286 (-9)

In terms of attack power, Kingdra only has 2 more points. Where do those points come from? Kingdra's base 95 Stats all around will grant it 2 more bonus points than Floatzel's base 85 Special Attack... Thats all...

So basically, the only thing Mixdra has over this guy is Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump (which can beat Milotic and Suicune with Stealth Rock help), otherwise Floatzel is just as effective at a set like this.
 
Floatzel actually can do better with special attacks than physical attacks if I'm not mistaken simply because of higher base power.

Calculations against theoretical 200 Defenses 300 HP pokemon with no EVs

Surf:35.67% - 42.00%
Waterfall:36.00% - 42.33%
Ice Fang:19.67% - 23.00%
Ice Beam:24.00% - 28.00%
Hidden Power:17.67% - 21.00%
Crunch: 24.00% - 28.33%

One is not actually superior to the other, the added coverage of hidden power and the much stronger Ice Beam make special attacks worth considering for Floatzel.
 
Surf outdamages Waterfall if both stats are Floatzel's absolute max, so your calculation is wrong. It should look like this:

+Special Attack 252 Surf: 50-59%
+Attack 252 Waterfall: 48-57%

I was suggesting mixed Floatzel because Floatzel actually does hit well from both sides of the spectrum
 

Colonel M

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Yeah, after thinking about it and testing it here and there, I'm going to add Mixed Floatzel. Ill have a write-up of it soon.
 
I'm just throwing out ideas here for now, will test them later.

1) Bulk Up set (Without Baton Pass)

I imagine that Floatzel can easily Bulk Up and start attacking, since it already has high speed and attack to begin with. You don't need to use Bulk Up for Baton Pass only, as Floatzel is already a respectable physical threat in it's own right.

2) Double Boost

Use both Rain Dance and Bulk Up to get the attack high enough (same theory as Kingdra's Double Dance). Not too sure how this will work though, the time needed to set this up might be a little long, given Floatzel's frailness.

3) Special Rain Dance

Use Rain Dance, and hit from it's SpA stat.

A few of this might be outclassed, but if it works it works.
 

Caelum

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I just skimmed, might look over more thoroughly later but I'm confident you've done it well CM. Just this small thing

<p>At any rate, it's a good idea to stock your team with good recipients of Bulk Up, Pokémon like Tangrowth, Electivire, Metagross, and Weavile that can shrug off Electric and Grass attacks aimed for Floatzel. Wish support also wouldn't hurt in general.</p>
Does Weavile really take Electric and Grass attacks "well"? I've also found physical Celebi to be one of the best recipients of Floatzels Bulk Ups so you might want to give that a mention since it has access to Recover as well
 

Colonel M

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Well, I was going to rewrite this anyway. It needs a good polish, so expect a rewrite of this in a few days, because I disagree about a couple of the recipients of Baton Pass (Weavile in particular).
 
Originally Posted by Amelia

I'm just throwing out ideas here for now, will test them later.

1) Bulk Up set (Without Baton Pass)

I imagine that Floatzel can easily Bulk Up and start attacking, since it already has high speed and attack to begin with. You don't need to use Bulk Up for Baton Pass only, as Floatzel is already a respectable physical threat in it's own right.

2) Double Boost

Use both Rain Dance and Bulk Up to get the attack high enough (same theory as Kingdra's Double Dance). Not too sure how this will work though, the time needed to set this up might be a little long, given Floatzel's frailness.

3) Special Rain Dance

Use Rain Dance, and hit from it's SpA stat.

A few of this might be outclassed, but if it works it works.
I would definately mention Floatzel's own Bulk Up set, but I wouldn't do double boost because by the time he rain dances on something he is better off attacking. Floatzel has more (common) weaknesses than Kingdra and is a lot frailer. But I would mention a set like Bulk Up, Waterfall, Ice Punch, Return and describe how it benefits from Rain support (double boost is potent as fuck, and the 1 turn Bulk up set-up isn't bad as opposed to a Rain dance + Bulk up. Hey, it could work though...).

For a special Rain dance, Floatzel really only has two special attacking options in Surf and Ice Beam. Hidden Power Electric can hit Gyarados ok, but thats all its going to hit for noticeable damage. Hence why I think Mixed Floatzel should be THE rain dance set. It outclasses an all-special set or an all-physical set.
 

Colonel M

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I'm a horrible comedian.

Finished though. SubPunch is apt to be a set, but I need more people to weigh in with that set in particular.
 
This is a good job Colonel M! I really enjoyed this revamp. A few nitpicks:

From the Kristy set:

<p>Floatzel is one of the few Pokemon that can Baton Pass Bulk Up boosts. The weasel’s high Speed and access to Taunt help this set successfully pass the boosts. Since Whirlwind, Roar, and Perish Song are common ways to prevent Pokemon from Baton Passing boosts, Taunt helps patch that problem. Unfortunately, Zapdos can completely stop this set with either a STAB Thunderbolt or Taunt(<--This should be Roar right?). It puts Floatzel into a risky situation as to whether Baton Pass the boosts to later be phased out or to suffer from Thunderbolt when attempting to use Taunt. When considering this set, a Pokemon with either Soundproof or Suction Cups is highly recommended to prevent your boosts from being eliminated.</p>
Yeah, Zapdos doesn't get taunt IIRC.

Now from the counters' section:

<p>The usual physical walls such as Skarmory will at least stop Floatzel from sweeping, though boosted Surf in the rain will take a number out of a lot of them. Priority moves from Scizor and Lucario aren’t enjoyed since Floatzel’s Defense stat isn’t very high. Spiritomb can throw Floatzel into a checkmate situation thanks to its great support movepool.</p>
I don't really agree with anything in this paragraph really. Floatzel beats every common physical "wall" in the game. A Bulk-Upped Waterfall or Rain Boosted Waterfall beats Donphan, Gliscor, or Hippowdon so they are out of the question. Skarmory and Forretress can't do anything to Kristy, and the mixed sweeping set just demolishes them, Surf OHKOs all 5 that I just mentioned. Scizor also is a bad thing to list, as Floatzel resists bullet punch, and non-life orb sets will pretty much get past Scizor's priority strikes, especially the Rain Sweeper or Bulk Up varients. Spiritomb again is in the same boat as physical walls, Floatzel can creame it with attacks (Surf + Waterfall 2HKO it as does +1 Waterfalls), or just Taunt it. What is Spiritomb doing in return?
 

cim

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The basic counter section should be all Bulky Waters (Vaporeon, Suicune, Milotic), Tangrowth, Celebi (with a grass attack), Gyarados, and Starmie.

And Empoleon.

I think the EVs were fine as they were. Maxing HP first isn't even the most efficient way to distribute defenses. I think Jump's were fine though as you're boosting Defense and he's too frail to split EVs.
 
Last comment in reading this again is that you describe Floatzel's Special Attack as mediocre... Granted base 85 isn't extraordinary, but you saw how well it can hit with Surf. Anyway, the point is mediocre is a bad adjective when describing the positives in the opinion section as you are trying to sell a pokemon in an analysis. "Mediocre" isn't exactlying helping Floatzel's case.
 

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