UU Forretress

[Kink]

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Overview
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Forretress benefits from great 140 Defense that lets it serve as the mainstream physical sponge to the majority of the tier and it also has access to Rapid Spin. It also comes with two handy abilities: Sturdy ensures that Forretress will survive any one hit while Overcoat protects it from powder moves and hail damage. Forretress's main role is to serve as an entry hazard stacker and spinner. Having access to Volt Switch also allows Forretress to serve as a slow defensive pivot that helps retain momentum. Forretress's usable 90 Attack allows for a decent-hitting Gyro Ball, letting it to take on some fast and frail threats. Unfortunately, poor attacking options make it setup bait, and its poor base 60 Special Defense does not aid in helping Forretress do its main jobs.


Defensive Pivot Rapin Spin
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name: Defensive Pivot Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Stealth Rock / Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch
move 4: Gyro Ball / Toxic
ability: Sturdy / Overcoat
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Relaxed

Moves
========
First and foremost, Forretress's job is to use Rapid Spin and keep entry hazards off your side of the field. The choice of entry hazard is team-dependent; if another Pokemon has Stealth Rock, you should run Spikes and set up dual entry hazards. Volt Switch turns Forretress into a defensive pivot by retaining momentum against switch-ins. The choice between Gyro Ball and Toxic is preference; Gyro Ball lets Forretress take on fast Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mienshao, Alakazam, Crobat, and Whimsicott, while Toxic cripples most of Forretress's common switch-ins, including Swampert and Vaporeon.

Set Details
========

Leftovers ensures longevity and passive recovery. Maximum HP and Defense investment allows Forretress to maximize its defensive bulk. An alternate spread of 244 SpD EVs allows Forretress to switch in against a few extra specially bulky Pokemon such as Swampert, Florges, and Vaporeon and make entry hazard stacking or spinning a little easier. An Attack-lowering nature and 0 Attack IVs help against Foul Play, while a Relaxed nature with 0 Speed IVs should be used if one opts for Gyro Ball. Sturdy guarantees that Forretress will be able to use Rapid Spin or Volt Switch or set up entry hazards, assuming it is at full HP. Alternatively, Overcoat allows Forretress to work around threats such as Roserade and other powder users.

Usage Tips
========

Try to avoid using Forretress as a lead. Instead, use it to take sponge hits from a variety of strong physical attackers such as Choice Scarf Mienshao. As a defensive pivot, it benefits from Wish support to help utilize its "sponge and switch" tactics. Once you've done your job with Forretress, it is okay to use it as death fodder. Forretress does not work with every team; a defensive pivot with spinning capabilities is not particularly useful on hyper offense. Normally, you'll want to run Forretress on balanced teams that can provide a synergistic relationship between spinning and Wish support. This set's Toxic allows you to apply pressure to Hippowdon, Donphan, and Swampert. Essentially, Forretress applies Toxic pressure on almost any Pokemon that chooses to switch in expecting entry hazards. Most notably, Baton Pass Vaporeon and Swampert hate being Toxic poisoned.


Team Options
========

This set works extremely well with bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon or Suicune, and it appreciates additional utility support from pivots such as Gligar or Crobat. Slow Volt Switch works well with wallbreakers and stallbreakers, such as Mienshao, Darmanitan, and Hydreigon. Forretress works well with fast Taunt users that can help prevent opposing Pokemon from setting up entry hazards. It also appreciates Pokemon such as Krookodile that can take care of spinblockers. Forretress is perfectly suited for balanced teams, well-suited for bulky offense, and decently suited on semistall teams.


Other Options
########

Toxic Spikes is a rarely used option due to the plethora of Defog users and Poison-types; however, it is still an option if one opts to use it. An alternate spread of 80 or 120 Attack EVs can be used for harder hitting Gyro Balls on the defensive set. One can opt to use Earthquake in order to hit Fire-types on the switch. Counter can also be utilized with Sturdy on the defensive spread in order to take on Haxorus, Machamp, and other bulky physical attackers more seriously; however, Gyro Ball is generally the superior option against Mega Aerodactyl and frail attackers.


Checks & Counters
########

**Bulky Water-types** Forretress hates Scald users, notably defog Empoleon, but will be able to do its job with the right support.

**Fire-types** All Fire-types, notably Chandelure, Entei, and Arcanine, give Forretress trouble. Pokemon such as Noivern or Hydreigon, that have access to common Fire-type moves, also cause grief for Forretress.

**Taunt Users** Taunt users shut Forretress down, as they prevent it from setting up entry hazards.

**Setup Sweepers** Suicune and most bulky setup sweepers, as well as Substitute + Calm Mind users such as Raikou and Jirachi, will be able to set up on Forretress.

**Magic Bounce** Espeon or Xatu bounce back Forretress's entry hazards.

**Trick Users** Forretress needs to anticipate Choiced Trick users, such as Jirachi, that like to cripple it.

**Spinblockers** Though UU doesn't have a plethora of Ghost-types to choose from, the occasional Jellicent and the common switch-in Chandelure will pose a problem for Forretress.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Not QC but I think you could probably change the order of the slashes to like:

Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock / Spikes
Volt Switch
Gyro Ball / Toxic / Toxic Spikes

Reasons for this being Rapid Spin is the absolute #1 reason to use Forretress, because hazard removal in UU that isn't Defog is kinda rare. Being able to remove only from your own side of the field is excellent for any teams that rely on Spike-Stacking. I moved Stealth Rock before Spikes because generally it's the more important hazard, and unless you are running your own SR user, it's going to be on this guy anyway.

You'll also want to put 4 EVs into SpD, in order to fully use all of its usable EVs. Every little bit counts, even if it is just 1 point. In Other Options you might want to list moves like Counter and Pain Split, because they're niche and take up a (more) useful moveslot, but have their uses. Pain Split gives it some usable recovery while Counter lets it dish out a hit to a physical attacker in a serious pinch (and lets it beat things such as DD Zygarde and SD Haxorus more easily). Not to mention both abilities actually make surprisingly good use of Sturdy for obvious reasons. Heavy Slam also could be put in OO since it actually gives Forry a passable method for killing Fairy-types such as Florges and Aromatisse

For Team Options I think the #1 thing Forretress needs in teammates is Pokemon who can dispose of spinblockers. Like Krookodile and Honchkrow can offer Pursuit support to trap and kill Ghost-types for your team so that Forretress can spin safely. I think things like "benefits from offensive pivots such as Crobat" is kinda vague and doesn't really give any idea of how it's paired off...explain that bulky water-types are mandatory because of their resistance to Fire, which is Forry's only (and biggest) weakness...Clerics like Vaporeon, Florges, Blissey, and Umbreon can all pass Wish to it to keep it healthy throughout the match, which is useful because Forretress pivots in and out of attacks like crazy. Vape gets special mention here since it also resists Fire, and can opt to run Baton Pass to ensure Forretress gets healed up. You can also state how it fits very well into VoltTurn teams because of its access to Volt Switch on top of its useful typing, making it great to pair with Pokes such as Ampharos, Crobat, Gligar, Rotom-H, etc.

In move explanations, you might want to flesh out what makes Gyro Ball useful, the main thing being that fast Pokemon like Alakazam, DD Haxorus, Crobat,and Whimsicott are all seriously injured by the move. Toxic is useful for covering more than just Hippo and Donphan 1v1...you also manage to pop a lot of its common switch-ins with it: Every Ground-type ever trying to block Volt Switch, bulky waters (Swampert especially because he really does you in), offensive Fire-types, and spinblockers. You can at least put them on a timer while going to the appropriate check of your own afterward.

 

[Kink]

Thanks for the suggestions, CoolStoryBrobat.

Ready for QC.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Not QC, just a few things to say.

Speed creep is not allowed on analyses, so I'd just make the spread of the second set 248 / 8 / 252 or something like that, unless you can provide calcs that that ev spread with 16 def helps with, or if it hits a jump point in defense, you're much better off with a simple ev spread. More importantly, just get rid of the speed.

I don't really understand the ev spread mentioned in oo unless it achives something in particular, like a certain 2HKO or something.

Also, checks and counters should be formatted like this:

**Fire-types**: Fire-types such as Infernape, Darmanitan, and Chandelure all threaten to OHKO Forretress with their STAB moves and resist Gyro Ball, but must be wary of Toxic.

Tbh I don't even know if there should be a second set, having two different ev spreads really doesn't play that differently from each other.

 

[Politoad]

Idk if this is what boltsandbombers meant but as opposed to 508 EVs, the second set currently has 516 EVs

 

[dingbat]

QC 1/3, we talked

 

[IronBullet]

Just one thing - why not slash Gyro Ball with Toxic on the Specially Defensive set too? I see no reason not to, in fact with the increased special bulk Forry has a better chance of beating stuff like Zam and Whimsi one on one with Gyro Ball instead of having to Volt Switch out. The offensive presence also prevents it from being complete set up bait against Zygarde etc. I can see why Toxic would be the primary option for this set as Forry has the special bulk now to take on bulky waters but Gyro Ball should still be considered. If so a Relaxed nature should be used, not only for the powered up Gyro Ball but also for the slow Volt Switch.

Looks great otherwise, QC 2/3

 

[Ernesto]

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (98 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery lul (that's assuming a Relaxed nature with 0 Spe IVs, and 188 Spe Jolly snake)

But yea, I agree with IB93 that Gyro Ball has enough going for it on the SpD set too.

Edit: It's better against non-Lefties DD obviously 0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 126-148 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO but I dunno if I'd stay in unless my only way to beat it was with priority o.O

 

[IronBullet]

Haha I was referring to the DD set which would power up Gyro Ball if Zygarde attempted to set up, so Forry would be able to deal respectable damage there :P but yeah sorry should've been clearer, GB does jack all against SubCoil lol.

 

[Sam]

I agree with IB93 in that I don't really see a need to have different moves for the different sets. I'm not really sure if there should be two separate sets tbh. Adding more special bulk can just be added in to set details. I know similar sets shouldn't be merged, but that's more along the lines of things with different roles (eg band vs scarf). These 2 sets still perform the same role.

Ernesto Bouffalant Calloflochie thoughts?

 

[Calloflochie]

Yeah, I tend to agree. Forretress really only uses the extra SpDef in order to take weaker Scalds and such easier. For basically everything else it is still doing a lot of damage just it's greatly exaggerated if no SpDef is used. Example being a Speed Boost Yanmega.

252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 246-290 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 160-188 (45.3 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is still an absolutely terrible idea to think that making Forretress specially defensive will automatically turn it into a Special wall because it just isn't. I'm fine with the specially defensive spread being moved to set details or w/e because I don't think that you want to give the reader an opinion that because it has Special Defense investment, that it can now switch into [insert Special move] because it simply can't. Outside of that the analysis looks fine. C&C needs to be given specific examples as it is quite lackluster right now. Once that is all done you can get your 3rd QC check :]

 

[Kink]

Yeah, I tend to agree. Forretress really only uses the extra SpDef in order to take weaker Scalds and such easier. For basically everything else it is still doing a lot of damage just it's greatly exaggerated if no SpDef is used. Example being a Speed Boost Yanmega.

252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 246-290 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 160-188 (45.3 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is still an absolutely terrible idea to think that making Forretress specially defensive will automatically turn it into a Special wall because it just isn't. I'm fine with the specially defensive spread being moved to set details or w/e because I don't think that you want to give the reader an opinion that because it has Special Defense investment, that it can now switch into [insert Special move] because it simply can't. Outside of that the analysis looks fine. C&C needs to be given specific examples as it is quite lackluster right now. Once that is all done you can get your 3rd QC check :]

Done.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

King UU

REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

Hide

Overview
########
Forretress benefits from great 140 Defense that makes lets it serve as the mainstream physical sponge to the majority of the tier, (AC) and also has with access to Rapid Spin. It also comes with two handy abilities: (colon) Sturdy ensures you Forretress survives any one 1 hit KO move, whilst while Overcoat protects from powder moves and hail damage. Forretress's main role is to serve as an entry hazard stacker and spinner. Having access to Volt Switch also allowed Forretress to serve as a slow defensive pivot that helps retain momentum. Forretress's usable 90 Attack allows for decent-hitting Gyro Balls, allowing it to take on some fast and frail threats. Unfortunately, poor attacking options make it setup bait, and poor base 60 Special Defense does not aid in helping Forretress doing its main jobs: Spin-stack-switch. Fortunately, with the right support, Forretress can fit on most teams that require access to its crafty utilities.


Defensive Pivot Rapid Spin
########
name: Defensive Pivot Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Stealth Rock / Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch
move 4: Gyro Ball / Toxic
ability: Sturdy / Overcoat
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Relaxed

Moves
========
First and foremost, Forretress's job is to use Rapid Spin and keep entry hazards off your side of the field. The choice of hazard is team-dependent; if another Pokemon has Stealth Rocks, you can opt for Spikes and set up dual hazards. Volt Switch turns Forretress into a defensive pivot by retaining momentum on against switch-ins. The choice between Gyro Ball and the Toxic slots has to do with is preference; Gyro Ball take on fast Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mienshao, Alakazam, Crobat, and Whimsicott, whilst while Toxic cripples most of its Forretress's common switch-ins, which now expands to including Swampert and Vaporeon.

Set Details
========

Leftovers ensures longevity and passive recovery. Max HP and Defense allows you Forretress to maximize its defensive bulk. An alternate spread of 244 SpD EVs allows this Forretress to switch in an against a few extra specially bulky Pokemon such as Swampert, Florges, (AC) and Vaporeon to help make entry hazard stacking or spinning a little easier. Min-attack An Attack-lowering nature and 0 Attack IVs help against Foul Play, while a Relaxed nature with 0 Speed IVs should be used if one opts for Gyro Ball. Sturdy allows Forretress you to get the guaranteed Rapid Spin/Volt Switch/hazard move, assuming you it starts with full HP, while Overcoat allows you Forretress to work around threats such as Roserade and other powder users.

Usage Tips
========

Try to avoid using Forretress as a lead. Instead, use it to take sponge hits from a variety of strong physical attackers such as Choice Scarf Mienshao. As a defensive pivot, it benefits from Wish support to help utilize its "sponge and switch" tactics. Once you've done your job with Forretress, it is okay to fodder it. Forretress does not work with every team; a defensive pivot with spinning capabilities is not particularly useful on hyper offense. Normally, you'll want to run Forretress on balanced teams that can provide a synergistic relationship between spinning and wish support. This set's Toxic allows you to apply pressure to Hippowdon, Donphan, and, additionally, Swampert. Essentially, Forretress applies Toxic pressure almost any Pokemon that chooses to switch in expecting entry hazards. Most notably, Baton Pass Vaporeon and standard Swampert hate being Toxiced.


Team Options
========

This set works extremely well with bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon or Suicune, and appreciates additional utility support from pivots such as Gligar or Crobat. Slow Volt Switch works will well with wallbreakers and stallbreakers (ie. Mienshao, Darmanitan, Hydreigon). Forretress works well with fast Taunt users that can help prevent opposing hazards. It also appreciates Pokemon like Krookodile that can take care of spinblockers. Forretress is perfectly suited for balanced teams, well-suited for bulky offense, and decently suited on semistall teams.


Other Options
########

Toxic Spikes is a rarely used option on either set due to the plethora of Defog users and Poison-types; (SC) however, it is still an option if one opts to use it. An alternate spread of 80 or 120 Attack EVs can be put used into Attack for harder hitting Gyro Balls on the defensive set. One can opt to use Earthquake on the first set in order to hit Fire-types on the switch in. Counter can also be utilized with Sturdy on the defensive spread in order to take on Haxorus, Machamp, (AC) and Zygarde more seriously, however, (RC) Gyro Ball is generally the superior option against Mega Aerodactyl and frail attackers.


Checks & Counters
########

**Bulky Water-types** Forretress hates Scald users, but will be able to do its job with the right support.
add spaces after these
**Fire-types** All Fire-types, notably Chandelure, Entei and Arcanine, give Forretress trouble, as well as all Pokemon with common Fire-Type moves like Noivern or Hydreigon.
**Taunt Users** Taunt users shut Forretress down, (AC) as they prevent it from setting up.
**Setup Sweepers & Sub Calm Mind** Zygarde, Suicune, and most bulky setup sweepers, (AC) / sub-cm as well as Substitute + Calm Mind users such as Raikou, (AC) will be able to set up on Forretress.
**Magic Bounce** If you see Espeon or Xatu, (RC) don't casually throw bounce back Forretress's entry hazards.
**Trick Users** Forretress needs to anticipate Choiced Trick users, such as Jirachi, that like to cripple it.
**Spinblockers** Though UU doesn't have a plethora of Ghost-types to choose from, the occasional Jellicent and the common switch-in Chandelure will pose a problem for Forretress.

1/2

 

[Winry]

Add or Corrections / Remove / Comments
Capitalize or lowercase

Hide

Overview
########
Forretress benefits from great 140 Defense that lets it serve as the mainstream physical sponge to the majority of the tier, (AC) and it also has access to Rapid Spin. It also comes with two handy abilities; (remove semicolon): Sturdy ensures you that Forretress will survive any one hit, while Overcoat protects it from powder moves and hail damage. Forretress's main role is to serve as an entry hazard stacker and spinner. Having access to Volt Switch also allowed allows (I assume it still allows?) Forretress to serve as a slow defensive pivot that helps retain momentum. Forretress's usable 90 Attack allows for a decent-hitting Gyro Balls, letting allowing (not a necessary change, but you do have two versions of allow in the same sentence) it to take on some fast and frail threats. Unfortunately, poor attacking options make it setup bait, and its poor base 60 Special Defense does not aid in helping Forretress do its main jobs.


Defensive Pivot Rapin Spin
########
name: Defensive Pivot Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Stealth Rock / Spikes
move 3: Volt Switch
move 4: Gyro Ball / Toxic
ability: Sturdy / Overcoat
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Relaxed

Moves
========
First and foremost, Forretress's job is to use Rapid Spin and keep entry hazards off your side of the field. The choice of entry hazard is team-dependent; if another Pokemon has Stealth Rock, you can opt for Spikes and set up dual entry hazards. Volt Switch turns Forretress into a defensive pivot by retaining momentum against switch-ins. The choice between Gyro Ball and Toxic is preference; Gyro Ball lets Forretress take on fast Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mienshao, Alakazam, Crobat, and Whimsicott, while Toxic cripples most of Forretress's common switch-ins, including Swampert and Vaporeon.

Set Details
========

Leftovers ensures longevity and passive recovery. Maximum HP and Defense investment allows Forretress to maximize its defensive bulk. An alternate spread of 244 SpD EVs allows this Forretress to switch in against a few extra specially bulky Pokemon such as Swampert, Florges, and Vaporeon to help and make entry hazard stacking or spinning a little easier. An Attack-lowering nature and 0 Attack IVs help against Foul Play, while a Relaxed nature with 0 Speed IVs should be used if one opts for Gyro Ball. Sturdy allows guarantees that Forretress will be able to use Rapid Spin or Volt Switch or set up entry hazards to get the guaranteed Rapid Spin/Volt Switch/hazard move, assuming it is at full HP,. (comma -> period) Alternatively, (AC) while Overcoat allows Forretress to work around threats such as Roserade and other powder move users.

Usage Tips
========

Try to avoid using Forretress as a lead. Instead, use it to take sponge hits from a variety of strong physical attackers such as Choice Scarf Mienshao. As a defensive pivot, it benefits from Wish support to help utilize its "sponge and switch" tactics. Once you've done your job with Forretress, it is okay to use it as death fodder it. Forretress does not work with every team; a defensive pivot with spinning capabilities is not particularly useful on hyper offense. Normally, you'll want to run Forretress on balanced teams that can provide a synergistic relationship between spinning and Wish support. This set's Toxic allows you to apply pressure to Hippowdon, Donphan, and, (RC) additionally, (RC) Swampert. Essentially, Forretress applies Toxic pressure on almost any Pokemon that chooses to switch in expecting entry hazards. Most notably, Baton Pass Vaporeon and Swampert hate being Toxiced poisoned.


Team Options
========

This set works extremely well with bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon or Suicune, and it appreciates additional utility support from pivots such as Gligar or Crobat. Slow Volt Switch works well with wallbreakers and stallbreakers, (AC) such as Mienshao, (AC) Darmanitan, (AC) and Hydreigon (ie. Mienshao, Darmanitan, Hydreigon). Forretress works well with fast Taunt users that can help prevent opposing Pokemon from setting up entry hazards. It also appreciates Pokemon like such as Krookodile that can take care of spinblockers. Forretress is perfectly suited for balanced teams, well-suited for bulky offense, and decently suited on semistall teams.


Other Options
########

Toxic Spikes is a rarely used option due to the plethora of Defog users and Poison-types; however, it is still an option if one opts to use it. An alternate spread of 80 or 120 Attack EVs can be used for harder hitting Gyro Balls on the defensive set. One can opt to use Earthquake in order to hit Fire-types on the switch. Counter can also be utilized with Sturdy on the defensive spread in order to take on Haxorus, Machamp, and Zygarde more seriously; however, Gyro Ball is generally the superior option against Mega Aerodactyl and frail attackers.


Checks & Counters
########

**Bulky Water-types** Forretress hates Scald users, but will be able to do its job with the right support.

**Fire-types** All Fire-types, notably Chandelure, Entei, (AC)and Arcanine, give Forretress trouble, as well as all Pokemon with common Fire-type moves like such as Noivern or Hydreigon.

**Taunt Users** Taunt users shut Forretress down, as they prevent it from setting up entry hazards.

**Setup Sweepers** Zygarde, Suicune, and most bulky setup sweepers, as well as Substitute + Calm Mind users such as Raikou, will be able to set up on Forretress.

**Magic Bounce** Espeon or Xatu bounce back Forretress's entry hazards.

**Trick Users** Forretress needs to anticipate Choiced Trick users, such as Jirachi, that like to cripple it.

**Spinblockers** Though UU doesn't have a plethora of Ghost-types to choose from, the occasional Jellicent and the common switch-in Chandelure will pose a problem for Forretress.

2/2

 

[tehy]

And so, i was ninja'd...again...


Oh well, here's my comments. Read them, cause they're relevant.

comments

Checks and counters could use a lot more detail. And rearranging; bulky waters don't really stop you from doing your job, while spinblockers and magic bouncers can, and bulky waters can just get Toxic'd to the face. What about steels, who similarly wall you and aren't toxic weak, strong special attackers, eapecially electric types, rapid spinners and defoggers? Etc.


When talking about the hazards, the word choice "can" makes it seen like Stealth Rock is still an okay option, even if another Pokemon on your team already has it. Is this the case? (I mean, usually it isn't)

Although swampert, florges, and vaporeon are specially bulky, that isn't relevant to switching in on them, but their special attacks are, especially when talking about a specially defensive Forretress.

Getting off a guaranteed Volt Switch does give you a free switch, but so would fainting. Getting off a free attack, however, is much more relevant, since a well-placed Gyro Ball can get a KO. This also covers Volt Switch if you were using it for its damage rather than momentum, so it's pretty much better all around.

 

[Kink]

And so, i was ninja'd...again...


Oh well, here's my comments. Read them, cause they're relevant.

comments

Checks and counters could use a lot more detail. And rearranging; bulky waters don't really stop you from doing your job, while spinblockers and magic bouncers can, and bulky waters can just get Toxic'd to the face. What about steels, who similarly wall you and aren't toxic weak, strong special attackers, eapecially electric types, rapid spinners and defoggers? Etc.


When talking about the hazards, the word choice "can" makes it seen like Stealth Rock is still an okay option, even if another Pokemon on your team already has it. Is this the case? (I mean, usually it isn't)

Although swampert, florges, and vaporeon are specially bulky, that isn't relevant to switching in on them, but their special attacks are, especially when talking about a specially defensive Forretress.

Getting off a guaranteed Volt Switch does give you a free switch, but so would fainting. Getting off a free attack, however, is much more relevant, since a well-placed Gyro Ball can get a KO. This also covers Volt Switch if you were using it for its damage rather than momentum, so it's pretty much better all around.

I appreciate you taking the time to write some suggestions. Seeing as how I already have 3 QC checks, I wanted to address your points before making any more edits.

Steels aren't a check or counter to any of Forretress' sets, they just prevent Gyro/Toxic from doing anything significant. However, Forry is slower than all steel types, and will easily be able to regain momentum on the Volt Switch. Which brings me to my second point. A guaranteed volt switch is far superior than fainting. Even though I wrote in the analysis that it's okay to fodder forry after its done its job, it's obviously a superior choice to maximize its utility as much as possible. With access to Volt Switch, Forry gains the role of a pivot, which is incredible in dealing with its real checks and counters.

Bulky waters are on top, because they're the best long-term answer. Especially Empoleon, which completely decimates this set (I'll actually go ahead and add Empoleon as a specific counter to Forry). In my opinion, the order of the rankings reflect the level of viability of counter/check. I'm on the VR council, so I'm very familiar with what stops Forry; Espeon and Xatu are far FAR less worrisome than standard Empoleon or Chandelure.

Your comment regarding the word "choice" for SR was accurate, I'll take a look at that now.

 

[Kink]

This analysis is finished and ready for upload.

 

[tehy]

Thanks for taking the time to answer, just wanted to clarify

A guaranteed Volt Switch means you get a guaranteed switch out to whatever Pokemon you want... but then again, so does dying, so getting off a Volt Switch instead of fainting thanks to Sturdy isn't really any different; is what i meant. (Outside of any damage dealt by Volt Switch.) I definitely wasn't knocking its viability, however.

As for the checks and counters, espeon and xatu can get rekt by low viability, sure.

The thing is, i agree that standard empoleon and chandelure are Forry's biggest threats, but not that, say, Suicune and Darmanitan are (putting aside viability differences). Chandelure is a problem because it can torch forry, but it can also spinblock it, and Empoleon can defog forrys hazards while setting its own, while also scalding it. Swampert is also somewhat of a problem, i guess, but it won't stop forry from getting up hazards and it really dislikes Toxic (not all forry have that obvsly, but still). To be honest, those guys are really just Spinblockers, Hazards removers, and hazards users that set up on forry. While stuff that can oneshot forry or stick around and fuck it up are threats and deserve to be noted as such, something that can stop it from doing its job entirely is a much larger problem.

As for steels, eh, i was thinking in terms of walling it hard, which is a lot of what bulky waters do. That said, i guess it would need to be a steel-type that hit it hard (is Fire punch Jirachi big in UU?), whereas waters with scald have that on lockdown.



If you stuck around this long, here's something i forgot to say-when you talk about forry's SpD spread, you mention switching into specially bulky pokemon like pert/vappy/florges. Those dudes are definitely specially bulky, but since you talked about switching into them, maybe you meant that they were specially offensive? (Though pert is kind of ghetto mixed with eq)


Tldr:counters that stop it from doing its jobs entirely>simple forceouts, tho viability matters. Also volt switching instead of dying means you got a free switch you would get from dying anyhow. Specially bulky->specially offensive

 

[Kink]

Had to adjust this, sorry for the inconvenience.