1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gems

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Desolate, Mar 20, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Desolate

    Desolate

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Recently the badgeholders had discovered that some of the item pages are quite silly and definitely not up to standard for Smogon, specifically the gems. I have censored out the "Competitive Use" section for now until we can come to a deliberation on a quality, competitive use for each gem.

    When posting, please state the gem you're talking about (obviously), and give a bit of reasoning, substance, or context behind your submission for the section.
  2. Entere

    Entere

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    Would something like this do? More substance, like damage calcs?

    The Flying Gem, one of the more useful gems, can make some Pokemon very menacing. Most flying-type moves have low base power, making it a somewhat ineffective attacking type. However, when combined with Acrobatics, it produces a 165 BP flying type move (247 with STAB), making for a very hard hit, crucial for taking out some fighting-types. It is only a one-time use though, so some prefer to go to other sources of power that don't deplete instantly, such as Life Orb or Choice items. Nevertheless, the Flying Gem still has some use make critical OHKOs that other items cannot do. A few notable users include Gliscor and Archeops.
  3. Desolate

    Desolate

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    That's one of the better ones, yes. The gist is to capture the use in the current metagame, known uses, not theoretical ones that you've fabricated in your head.
  4. Eraddd

    Eraddd One Pixel
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,340
    I'm not sure about singles, but in VGC and doubles, they're pretty valuable.

    Rock Gem is usually used to enhance the power of Rock Slide; with its great flinch rate, and decent attacking power, Rock Gem-powered Rock Slide allows the user to deal much greater damage, to get both the opponents into KO range for his partner to take out. Users usually include Tyranitar, and Terrakion.

    Bug Gem is used to enhance the power of Bug Bite, and Megahorn; most notably, it allows the user to potentially KO Cresselia, one of the bulkiest Psychic-types in the metagame, and arguably, one of the best supporters. The main user is Scizor, but Heracross and Escavalier can both take advantage of it to boost their STAB Megahorns.

    Steel Gem is primarily used by Scizor to boost the power of Bullet Punch. With Technician, and STAB, Steel Gem-enhanced Bullet Punch will deal heavy damage, if not outright KO the opponent.

    Fire Gem is used to usually used to boost Heat Wave's attacking power. With Heat Wave being a spread move, a Fire Gem-boosted Heat Wave has the power to deal heavy damage or even KO opponents that don't resist it. Other moves used in conjunction are Fire Blast and Overheat. Notable users include Heatran, and Chandelure.
  5. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,428
    Do we need to take into consideration into a gems effect on other metagames like VGC?

    Edit yah above post also maybe other tiers with semi common users....
  6. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,416
    If we want to incorporate VGC into the Competitive Use sections of the items, then I would like there to be a separate paragraph for it. One paragraph or w/e for singles, and then a separate one for VGC, just because they are such vastly different metas and use way different items.
  7. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,690
    Just because an item isn't being used in the current metagame does not mean it doesn't have potential use. Personally, I am of the opinion that we should keep the theoretical "Competitive Uses" section even when the item does not really have any actual use, as most item's descriptions don't give you an idea about what Pokemon could use it well etc. Still supporting this thread, as some of the gems do have actual use and we need to get that rather than the theorymonning on-site.
  8. Desolate

    Desolate

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    I support this, however I'm not sure it will go over well because we'd then have to attempt to make a unique paragraph for each metagame on every item, and as this post implies, we barely have the bare minimum on some. Nonetheless, I think different metagame tabs would be nice.
  9. Desolate

    Desolate

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    I probably could of worded that better: we need well thought out competitive uses, not ones that you made up in ten minutes and are a gimmick. Also, I agree with no theorymon.
  10. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,416
    Nah, we'd just do singles and doubles, since the competitiveness of an item in OU would be easily reflected in the lower tiers.

    Doubles though is on an entire new level, so a separate paragraph would be fine.

    EDIT: idk if it would even require different tabs or tags tbh
  11. Desolate

    Desolate

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Gotcha. I guess it would be simply aesthetic to implement tabs or tags, and it actually make things more confusing now that I think of it. We'll stick with one page with a few paragraphs.
  12. Entere

    Entere

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    I actually think a bunch of gems are already being used. Except for maybe five or so, like ghost, poison, and grass. In those cases, theorymonning I think would be okay, but a warning should be set out that you should not use them. Anyways, I made a bit of a list. It looks like a lot of the gems are never used. As much as I think some of these gems have no use, I wouldn't like to see a page with nothing on it but "Sorry, don't use this." Maybe some slightly gimmicky surprise sets could work?

    Normal Gem - E-speed and Return, lower tiers.
    Fighting Gem - None that I know of. Mienshao?
    Flying Gem - Obvious. Acrobatics, Gliscor, Archeops, etc.
    Poison Gem - Who would use this? None that I know of.
    Ground Gem - None that I know of. Some theorymonning potentially possible, but I doubt it. (Does VGC use this?)
    Rock Gem - VGC, Rock Slide
    Bug Gem - Mainly Escavalier, Megahorn.
    Ghost - None that I know of.
    Steel - pretty much only Scizor. I believe it is used by Klinklang in lower tiers, but I could be wrong.
    Fire - VGC, to boost spread moves, specifically Heat Wave.
    Water - None that I know definitively. I vaguely remember something about Hydro Pump?
    Grass - None that I know of.
    Electric - None that I know definitively. Maybe I was daydreaming/theorymonning.
    Psychic - None that I know of.
    Ice - None that I know of.
    Dragon - None that I know of. Suicidal Haxorus?
    Dark - None that I know of. Absol?
  13. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,159
    Unburden Hitmonlee uses Normal Gem with Fake Out to guarantee the Speed boost. Fighting Gem is riskier but can also work as long as Hitmonlee can KO its target with boosted Mach Punch or Close Combat. Sceptile can use Flying or Grass Gem with Acrobatics or a STAB move to activate Unburden as well. Both of these obviously apply more to RU, but they're worth mentioning imo, especially if the items have no viable use in OU.
  14. wilson46

    wilson46
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    709
    Rock Gem is the main and most common item for Terrakion's SubSD set, used to crush its regular counters such as Gliscor and Slowbro, after a SD and gem boosted Stone Edge. Some suicide Stealth Rock Azelf use Normal Gem to give Explosion a hefty boost in power to hit something really hard after its job is done. Tornadus uses Flying Gem in tandem with Acrobatics to good effect as well.

    I think those are all of the gem-users that can be found in OU.
  15. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,286
    Feel obliged to point out that none of the currently uploaded item descriptions (specifically the competitive use sections) were uploaded with any checks whatsoever or as far as I know with any moderator consent (with some exceptions such as the choice items, which may well require a revamp regardless)

    Ideally they should all be removed as few if any of them are appropriately detailed at present.

    Also the idea is that competitive use sections should provide information pertinent to any metagame in which the item/any other element is competitively viable, or else explain why it isn't viable in any metagame.
  16. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,737
    All of the gems have competitive usage in VGC in one form or another, due to the fast pace nature of the format. Although some are definitely more rare than others. Here's the most common uses.

    Normal Gem: Fake Out, Explosion, Hyper Beam.

    Explosion users, such as Metagross and Landorus, gain a huge power boost from a Normal Gem boosted Explosion. Fake Out gains a noticeable boost in power, especially with a Technician user like Ambipom (who also gains STAB). Download-boosted or Adaptability Porygon-Z's Hyper Beam gains an insane boost in damage output, probably OHKOing everything not Chansey, Blissey, or resistant.

    Fire Gem: Fire Blast, Heat Wave, Overheat

    Nothing special, just a one time boost to these moves. Fire Gem Overheat is one of the strongest attacks in the game.

    Water Gem: Hydro Pump

    Nothing special. Most likely to see it on a Rotom-W.

    Grass Gem: Leaf Storm

    Nothing special. Most likely to see it on a Rotom-C.

    Electric Gem: Thunderbolt, Thunder

    Commonly seen on Zapdos and Thundurus for the power boost to these powerful attacks.

    Ice Gem: Blizzard

    Although Ice attacks are common, you're not likely to see this gem unless it's being abused by a Hail team.

    Flying Gem: HP Flying, Acrobatics, Hurricane

    Acrobatics literally triples in base power with a Flying Gem, and remains doubled in base power after the Flying Gem is consumed. Hurricane is a niche move but useful in rain. HP Flying isn't seen much, but it is a secondary STAB move for Salamence, Zapdos, and Thundurus, and inflicts heavy damage to ever-present Fighting types.

    Fighting Gem: Close Combat.

    Common with Hitmontop, but also seen on other fighting types.

    Poison Gem: Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave (rare gem)

    Almost never seen due to the rarity of Poison-type attacks not named Toxic. Most competitively viable Poison types have a secondary type (and secondary STAB) they can use instead.

    Ground Gem: Earthquake, Earth Power

    Nothing special about this gem

    Psychic Gem: Psychic, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt (rare gem)

    Nothing special about this gem, although Psychic attacks are quite useful in the VGC metagame due to the abundance of Fighting-type Pokemon.

    Rock Gem: Rock Slide, Stone Edge

    Nothing special about this gem.

    Bug Gem: Bug Buzz, Bug Bite

    Nothing special about this gem, although a Scizor's Technician STAB Bug Gem boosted Bug Bite will inflict extreme damage.

    Dragon Gem: Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor

    VERY commonly seen on Latios, sometimes seen on Salamence or Garchomp. A Dragon Gem boosted Draco Meteor is going to inflict extreme damage to anything that doesn't resist it.

    Ghost Gem: Shadow Ball (rare gem)

    Few Pokemon can make use of a Ghost Gem boosted Shadow Ball, and all of them are ghost types to begin with. However Ghost Gem Shadow Ball is one of the deadliest attacks that can hit a Psychic type.

    Dark Gem: Sucker Punch, Dark Pulse, Crunch

    Hitmontop is one of the top abusers of a Dark Gem boosted Sucker Punch, but it's not the only Pokemon with Sucker Punch either.

    Steel Gem: Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Iron Head

    Metagross and Scizor can use Steel Gem Bullet Punch to inflict heavy damage in a pinch. Many Steel types also gain access to Meteor Mash or Iron Head, which can inflict substantial damage.


    One of the major advantages of the gems is that you get the one time power boost of a Choice Band or Choice Specs, without the penalty of being locked into a single move. Often in the VGC environment, this is enough to net a KO that you would otherwise miss, and can easily decide the rest of the battle.
  17. AasTmO

    AasTmO

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Actually, SubSD Terrakion with Rock Gem saw quite some use to get past his usual checks...
  18. Iceydude168

    Iceydude168

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    111
    A cool gimmick I've used before is Dark Gem Thief Technitop, the Dark Gem activates before the item steal effect so you can grab their Leftovers. Also, it makes Thief a 90 BP Move with Gem + Techician bonus, it's pretty useful in UU as a disruptor.
  19. Wobbanaut

    Wobbanaut

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,002
    In theorymoning this set actually has some competitive use although it would be better if the Pokemon in question had trick this could also be an option for Ambipom if you really hate the LO recoil and want to use a gimmick but not all gimmicks are bad and it would reduce the threat of Flygon in the tier if you manage to steal it and then trick it off to a defensive pokemon
  20. The QWAZ

    The QWAZ

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    527
    gems are fairly poor choices in the non VGC environment as a one time boost is not worth the consistency that a choice item or life orb provides, of course they can work as lures for example salamence tends to lure in scizor but an earth gem boosted earthquake deal huge damage and has a decent change to OHKO after sr and spikes, but then the opponent knows it doesnt have scarf, life orb ect and can proceed to revenge kill it leaving you down one pokemon after possibly taking one of theirs out.
  21. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,788
    Other people have made some lists on the uses of gems, but I'll make one too.

    Normal Gem: Fake Out. I've seen this numerous times on Ambipom, and occasionally see it on Infernape and Mienshao. I've also seen my share of Normal Gem boosted Explosions, from the likes of Metagross and Azelf.

    Fire Gem: Fire Gem is pretty much useless outside of doubles.

    Water Gem: Useless outside of doubles.

    Electric Gem: Useless outside of doubles.

    Grass Gem: Roserade can use this decently, but prefers Life Orb or Leftovers for the most part.

    Ice Gem: On hail teams, this can be useful to Pokemon utilizing Blizzard.

    Fighting Gem: As mentioned, Unburden Hitmonlee uses it.

    Poison Gem: Useless.

    Ground Gem: Aforementioned Salamence, otherwise none.

    Flying Gem: Many Acrobatics users will utilize this, most notably Gliscor and Unburden Drifblim.

    Psychic Gem: Useless outside of doubles.

    Bug Gem: Useless outside of doubles.

    Rock Gem: Terrakion to get through its usual counters with Stone Edge.

    Ghost Gem: Useless outside of doubles.

    Dragon Gem: I've seen Latios use this to bluff a Choice item with a coverage move, though it is not very effective.

    Dark Gem: Anything that wants to use Thief.

    Steel Gem: Aforementioned Scizor's Bullet Punch.

    That will be that. Cheers!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)