Gods and Followers

[QT]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-349576699
another replay. We had a few more, but this was the best of them.

As far as followers go, ones that don't stack weaknesses seem to go well. If spamming one type of attack works, then the opponent will lose anyway, while if it wont then adding more won't help.
The god itself is also a little less imposrtant.

 

[Isa Simple]

I feel like Mega Gyarados has the potential to be a top tier Overlord in OL&UL.
Its pre mega Water / Flying typing gives it access to a plethora of strong followers, with lots of dominant flying types and UU being littered with waters.
Plus mega Gyarados itself is a very strong set up sweeper that could potentially crush teams single handedly in a predominantly UU environment.

Here is a list of potentially strong followers:

Water: Suicune, Feraligatr, Empoleon, Crawdaunt, Swampert, Alomomola, Tentacruel, Slowking, Jellicent, Cloyster, Milotic, Qwilfish, Seismitoad, Sharpedo, Gastrodon, Kingdra, Omastar, Quagsire, Blastoise, Poliwrath, Vaporeon.

Flying:
Salamence, Zapdos, Crobat, Tornadus, Gligar, Mandibuzz, Aerodactyl, Yanmega, Fletchinder, Honchkrow, Moltres, Noivern, Togetic, Xatu.

LOTS of options offensively and defensively. Plus the typings work together quite well as the Flying types beat the grass types that trouble the Waters, and the Waters can take on Ice types. The Electric weakness shouldn't be too bad thanks to access to all the Water/Grounds and Gligar (which I'm assuming is a good electric check cause I'd guess most electrics run HP Grass > HP Ice given all the water/grounds in the tier). Besides there aren't that many good electric types in UU anyway.

Mega Gyarados teams just seem ridiculously versatile, with sooo many strong pokemon that can be thrown together for anything from full stall to HO. I find the concept of Mega Gyarados stall in particular rather intriguing as I believe it was actually a thing in OU for a very short period of time when Stall teams started using bulky Mega Gyarados to counter Baton Pass teams. Plus in Ubers Mega Gyarados has a RestTalk set that seems to beat a crap tonne of the UU meta, though there is plenty of cleric support available so maybe Rest Talk isn't even necessary, which opens up room for moves like Toxic, Thunder Wave, Scald, Taunt, or just more coverage to hit a certain mon you wall.
But of course offensive and balance teams would also be extremely powerful, with Megadose itself being a crazy sweeper, and some high order teammates like Salamence and Feraligatr leaving little hope for the opposition in defending against you.

Also one thing that I noticed which could potentially be stupid but is interesting none the less; Swampert, Sharpedo, Blastoise and Aerodactyl are all considered viable in UU without their mega stones, but their megas are all still legal and of a higher rank in UU too. Plus regular Gyarados is A+ in UU and isn't really set back should it lack an item, so I'm wondering if perhaps another one of these could be megas could fair well enough without an item to consider a double mega comp. Say Aerodactyl + Gyarados for instance, then depending on whatever would serve you best in the given match up, you could either mega Gyarados for an OU mon and a B- rank UU mon, or mega Aero for an S rank mon and an A+ mon. Its probably stupid but I couldn't help but think about it because I don't play UU and am not sure what items these pre megas run or how reliant they are on it.

Like I said I don't play UU so don't take my word on everything but I still expect Mega Gyarados to be a really good leader in OU&UL and wanted to contribute as its a pretty sick meta.

 

[yoman5]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-349576699
another replay. We had a few more, but this was the best of them.

As far as followers go, ones that don't stack weaknesses seem to go well. If spamming one type of attack works, then the opponent will lose anyway, while if it wont then adding more won't help.
The god itself is also a little less imposrtant.

Doesn't playing in OU defeat a lot of the strategy as your god dying is *supposed* to curse your team? Notably aero woulda just been dead to this effect, as would darm.

 

[Whydon]

Yeah, the Curse effect wasn't applied when Talonflame fainted. Is that intentional?

 

[QT]

Yeah, the Curse effect wasn't applied when Talonflame fainted. Is that intentional?

Doesn't playing in OU defeat a lot of the strategy as your god dying is *supposed* to curse your team? Notably aero woulda just been dead to this effect, as would darm.

It does; however, it really doesn't matter.
Vs Darm yes, but at that point it was over. Also vs salamence ig, but he forfeited.

Regardless, gods are so powerful that once yours goes down your doomed regardless of the curse.

 

[Niadev]

Not done much building or playing for it (because I have no friends D:) but UL+OL seems cool :D. Just some thoughts on potential meta Overlords:

Zard X is probably going to be the UL+OL equivalent of MMence in GaF, and we all know how ridiculous that monster was. In essence, Xard gets fantastic followers (like MMence in GaF), is one of the absolute best in OU already (like MMence in Ubers), and is an INCREDIBLY potent wincon (again, like MMence). I'd go into detail but somebody a few posts back already collected a list of good followers for it in their post and I'm lazy so :V. Unfortunately, it and it's followers are pretty much all weak to stealth rocks so hazard support is absolutely mandatory, and choosing to run Flare Blitz reduces Zard's Longevity and forces it to Roost mid sweep. Bulky/Hyper Offense might be nice for it, maybe Scarf Mence can do work with Outrage once Zard X softens/removes it's checks for it and vice versa, kind of like the old Salamence+Rayquaza core of Ubers, and Zapdos can act as a nice pivot and Defog support. Now then, brb I'm going to make a team abusing Zard X. Expect a team dump soon lol

Something I want to bring to attention though is Hoopa Unbound. This thing's specs set is raw, unadulterated POWER, and it got it to S in OU, so you know it's good. Dark Psychic is ok in followers, but the key things will be Alakazam of it's followers, who adequately deals with most offense, and Gardevoir, who can do a similar role with a scarfed set, and beat Mence if it tries Outrage spam. The idea of this is that Hoopa busts down walls and Alakazam/Gardevoir cleans up with some LO set. It also gets fat Pokemon like Cresselia, Mandibuzz, Umbreon, as well as pretty potent Pokemon like Crawdaunt, who can be an SD Wincon/Secondary Wallbreaker, Sharpedo the offense nightmare, Sableye the I-think-I-might-just-forfeit-this-thing-is-so-annoying-kill-me-now Prankster, and of course, Hydreigon, who can be a scarfed cleaner, wallbreaker, or anything because it's S rank in UU lol, Metagross the potential Agillity Wincon/ANOTHER wallbreaker, and others. It's not likely this thing will be top tier here, but it might not be a usable Overlord forever - people in OU are calling for it to be suspected and S rank is usually where threats end up right before they're suspected if the past has taught us anything.

 

[QT]

Not done much building or playing for it (because I have no friends D:) but UL+OL seems cool :D. Just some thoughts on potential meta Overlords:

Zard X is probably going to be the UL+OL equivalent of MMence in GaF, and we all know how ridiculous that monster was. In essence, Xard gets fantastic followers (like MMence in GaF), is one of the absolute best in OU already (like MMence in Ubers), and is an INCREDIBLY potent wincon (again, like MMence). I'd go into detail but somebody a few posts back already collected a list of good followers for it in their post and I'm lazy so :V. Unfortunately, it and it's followers are pretty much all weak to stealth rocks so hazard support is absolutely mandatory, and choosing to run Flare Blitz reduces Zard's Longevity and forces it to Roost mid sweep. Bulky/Hyper Offense might be nice for it, maybe Scarf Mence can do work with Outrage once Zard X softens/removes it's checks for it and vice versa, kind of like the old Salamence+Rayquaza core of Ubers, and Zapdos can act as a nice pivot and Defog support. Now then, brb I'm going to make a team abusing Zard X. Expect a team dump soon lol

Something I want to bring to attention though is Hoopa Unbound. This thing's specs set is raw, unadulterated POWER, and it got it to S in OU, so you know it's good. Dark Psychic is ok in followers, but the key things will be Alakazam of it's followers, who adequately deals with most offense, and Gardevoir, who can do a similar role with a scarfed set, and beat Mence if it tries Outrage spam. The idea of this is that Hoopa busts down walls and Alakazam/Gardevoir cleans up with some LO set. It also gets fat Pokemon like Cresselia, Mandibuzz, Umbreon, as well as pretty potent Pokemon like Crawdaunt, who can be an SD Wincon/Secondary Wallbreaker, Sharpedo the offense nightmare, Sableye the I-think-I-might-just-forfeit-this-thing-is-so-annoying-kill-me-now Prankster, and of course, Hydreigon, who can be a scarfed cleaner, wallbreaker, or anything because it's S rank in UU lol, Metagross the potential Agillity Wincon/ANOTHER wallbreaker, and others. It's not likely this thing will be top tier here, but it might not be a usable Overlord forever - people in OU are calling for it to be suspected and S rank is usually where threats end up right before they're suspected if the past has taught us anything.

Well, it isn't called for suspect but it is a serious threat. Hoopa-U beats stall even more thoroughly now because the mons that beat it are all gods or niche.

On mega charizard, the main problem I see is its competition with talonflame, who can easily revenge kill, has multiple different viable sets, and has the same followers.

 

[Niadev]

Well, it isn't called for suspect but it is a serious threat. Hoopa-U beats stall even more thoroughly now because the mons that beat it are all gods or niche.

On mega charizard, the main problem I see is its competition with talonflame, who can easily revenge kill, has multiple different viable sets, and has the same followers.

Ah, I didn't know if a hoopa suspect was happening but I saw people wanting one, which is what I referenced.

I feel MegaZard is more of a reliable God than TFlame, as once it's megad, it loses a bit of SR weakness over TFlame, as well as gaining a lot of setup opportunities thanks to increased defense. Talonflame is also rather reliant on flying moves to outspeed things, depending on sets, and is walled much easier than MegaZard, who doesn't really have a single counter after a DDance. Zard also has more wallbreaking capability from the get go, and it can beat more things because of it's (slightly) improved physical coverage. Although, Talonflame doesn't take up a mega slot and is much harder to outspeed. I guess they can be interchangeable, but I honestly feel Zard X will be more dominant.

 

[Jajoken]

About replays using Ubers/OU instead of dedicated G+F: I've accepted them in the past if the loss of the Curse effect had no impact on the match, but considering that there are multiple places to play G+F in its native format, I would prefer you use that instead to get a more accurate view of the meta.

I see the Zard vs. TF competition in a similar light to the MMence vs. Ray competition in G+F -- they each have distinct perks, but one will probably see more use overall due to overlap in team structure. I do think that TF's greater set diversity make them pretty even despite Zard's significant power increase, but UU honestly has nothing to solidly take on Zard once it sets up. Maybe the popular Roar/Rest/CM/Scald Suicune set will see use?

EDIT: Never mind I forgot about our lord and savior Quagsire god bless

 

[yoman5]

About replays using Ubers/OU instead of dedicated G+F: I've accepted them in the past if the loss of the Curse effect had no impact on the match, but considering that there are multiple places to play G+F in its native format, I would prefer you use that instead to get a more accurate view of the meta.

I see the Zard vs. TF competition in a similar light to the MMence vs. Ray competition in G+F -- they each have distinct perks, but one will probably see more use overall due to overlap in team structure. I do think that TF's greater set diversity make them pretty even despite Zard's significant power increase, but UU honestly has nothing to solidly take on Zard once it sets up. Maybe the popular Roar/Rest/CM/Scald Suicune set will see use?

EDIT: Never mind I forgot about our lord and savior Quagsire god bless

can quag beat the wisp set reliably? Legitimate question.

 

[Niadev]

Team dump time! I've given a bit of a description for them both, but I don't know the UU metagame anywhere near as much as I'd like to so these may just be bad lol. I honestly like the first team better than the second, but I like Bulky Offense over Hyper Offense so that may just be bias. I've also not got any friendsbody to test with so just take these as potential teams that can be improved later.

Zard X Team

Import

The Student (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

The Master (Salamence) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Crunch

The Thunderbird (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 68 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Defog
- Hidden Power [Ice]

The Beast Within (Entei) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Bulldoze
- Flare Blitz

The Fairy Slayer (Crobat) @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- Sleep Talk
- U-turn

The BatChild (Gligar) @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

Description

The team revolves around ScarfMence and Xard and eliminating or softening their checks, enabling the other to sweep. Once steels have been weakened and fairies ridden of, Salamence can just click Outrage and sweep after one or two kills. Alternatively, once fat water Zard checks are gone, Zard can sweep instead. Now, the first thing you'll notice is 3 choice items. It's not incredibly important to switch up moves as their main roles are to weaken the checks to the Student and the Master. Entei's Sacred Fire is incredibly spammable due to it's ridiculous chance to burn.

Zapdos performs two important roles - The first is to act as a Defogger, something that's pretty important considering my glaring weakness to rocks, and the second is to act as a pivot with Volt Switch, as well as weakening fat waters like Suicune. This makes it a pretty key pivot for the team, and it checks Talonflame, a Pokemon who can be pretty potent if given an in, especially as my other physically defensive pivot, Gligar, can't touch it.

The next member is Entei. Sacred Fire from band is RIDICULOUS, with most otherwise safe switchins risking being burnt. It also provides useful priority in the form of Extreme Speed, taking down most sweepers. Flare Blitz is for those walls that just NEED to be gone, and Bulldoze because ground coverage I guess? idk it's really just filler.

Next is Crobat the fairy slayer. As it's name indicates, it's my answer to most fairies. It also sponges Spore from things like Breloom and Sleep Powder from Mega Venusaur. It can then Sleep Talk and do something back. It has U-turn to gain momentum.

Finally, we have Gligar. Gligar is my rocks setter who walls key threats like Lucario, Darmanitan, and basically anything physical, and can get me momentum via U-turn. It's pretty much a ridiculously poor man's Lando-T

Hoopa-U Team

Import

what's ur sac bro (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

best moustache (Alakazam) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Encore

not ur waifu (Gardevoir) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish

Bejeweled (Azelf) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Taunt
- Sunny Day

my pet dragon (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

The Hellhound (Houndoom-Mega) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Destiny Bond
- Sludge Bomb

Description

The team revolves around the monster Hoopa-U and the two Offensive threats Alakazam and Scarfed Gardevoir. The team is Hyper Offensive, aiming to wear down everything until the two fast Psychics or Hoopa blitz through the opposing team, depending on team comp. Obviously, Hoopa-U is first as it's the God. Unfortunately, this team is kind of flattened by Talonflame and Zard X, the former especially as I have no way of outspeeding it and my only real answer is SR + Hoping it kills itself from BB recoil and sacking half my team to it lol.

First, we have the monster that is Alakazam. It can force the enemy into mind games over whether or not it's Sash or not, but I chose LO for that cleaning power. It has great power, speed and usable coverage. It's pretty much standard OU because it hasn't got a UU analysis.

Second up, we have Scarfed Gardevoir. It prevents Salamence from just clicking Outrage and adds a second cleaner, as well as Healing Wish support for another sweeper. TBolt is for water based teams.

Next, we have Azelf, the suicide lead for the team. Now, you've probably seen Sunny Day and are probably wondering "why?". It's to improve the teams matchup vs BD Azu and give Mega Houndoom access to it's ability. In the case of teams where Sunny Day is useful, Azelf will probably be kept back to set it when it's useful, and keep SR for later. It also stops Rain teams from just stomping everything.

Then, we have Hydreigon, the resident secondary wallbreaker/pivot. Every UU player knows who much of a pain it is to beat - It can run so many sets it's ridiculous, and this is just one of them.

Finally, we have Mega Houndoom, because why not. It fits the hyper offensive nature of the team and is pretty much one of the only psychic or dark megas in UU. It adds a second way to clean offensive teams and, with Solar Power boosts provided by Azelf, it can do significant work vs stallier teams.

 

[Jajoken]

can quag beat the wisp set reliably? Legitimate question.

Wisp Zard often has bulk instead of power, but lets go with the worst case scenario and say you're facing Adamant Wisp (is that a set?)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Still can't 2HKO after burn. Meanwhile, Quagsire often carries Toxic in its last slot, allowing you to stall with Recover. But even if you somehow take too much damage to wall Zard, Wisp Zard in general has more checks than normal DD so you should have an easier time regardless.

Team dump time! I've given a bit of a description for them both, but I don't know the UU metagame anywhere near as much as I'd like to so these may just be bad lol. I honestly like the first team better than the second, but I like Bulky Offense over Hyper Offense so that may just be bias. I've also not got any friendsbody to test with so just take these as potential teams that can be improved later.

Zard X Team

Import

The Student (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

The Master (Salamence) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Crunch

The Thunderbird (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 68 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Defog
- Hidden Power [Ice]

The Beast Within (Entei) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Bulldoze
- Flare Blitz

The Fairy Slayer (Crobat) @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- Sleep Talk
- U-turn

The BatChild (Gligar) @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

Description

The team revolves around ScarfMence and Xard and eliminating or softening their checks, enabling the other to sweep. Once steels have been weakened and fairies ridden of, Salamence can just click Outrage and sweep after one or two kills. Alternatively, once fat water Zard checks are gone, Zard can sweep instead. Now, the first thing you'll notice is 3 choice items. It's not incredibly important to switch up moves as their main roles are to weaken the checks to the Student and the Master. Entei's Sacred Fire is incredibly spammable due to it's ridiculous chance to burn.

Zapdos performs two important roles - The first is to act as a Defogger, something that's pretty important considering my glaring weakness to rocks, and the second is to act as a pivot with Volt Switch, as well as weakening fat waters like Suicune. This makes it a pretty key pivot for the team, and it checks Talonflame, a Pokemon who can be pretty potent if given an in, especially as my other physically defensive pivot, Gligar, can't touch it.

The next member is Entei. Sacred Fire from band is RIDICULOUS, with most otherwise safe switchins risking being burnt. It also provides useful priority in the form of Extreme Speed, taking down most sweepers. Flare Blitz is for those walls that just NEED to be gone, and Bulldoze because ground coverage I guess? idk it's really just filler.

Next is Crobat the fairy slayer. As it's name indicates, it's my answer to most fairies. It also sponges Spore from things like Breloom and Sleep Powder from Mega Venusaur. It can then Sleep Talk and do something back. It has U-turn to gain momentum.

Finally, we have Gligar. Gligar is my rocks setter who walls key threats like Lucario, Darmanitan, and basically anything physical, and can get me momentum via U-turn. It's pretty much a ridiculously poor man's Lando-T

Hoopa-U Team

Import

what's ur sac bro (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

best moustache (Alakazam) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Encore

not ur waifu (Gardevoir) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish

Bejeweled (Azelf) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Taunt
- Sunny Day

my pet dragon (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

The Hellhound (Houndoom-Mega) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Destiny Bond
- Sludge Bomb

Description

The team revolves around the monster Hoopa-U and the two Offensive threats Alakazam and Scarfed Gardevoir. The team is Hyper Offensive, aiming to wear down everything until the two fast Psychics or Hoopa blitz through the opposing team, depending on team comp. Obviously, Hoopa-U is first as it's the God. Unfortunately, this team is kind of flattened by Talonflame and Zard X, the former especially as I have no way of outspeeding it and my only real answer is SR + Hoping it kills itself from BB recoil and sacking half my team to it lol.

First, we have the monster that is Alakazam. It can force the enemy into mind games over whether or not it's Sash or not, but I chose LO for that cleaning power. It has great power, speed and usable coverage. It's pretty much standard OU because it hasn't got a UU analysis.

Second up, we have Scarfed Gardevoir. It prevents Salamence from just clicking Outrage and adds a second cleaner, as well as Healing Wish support for another sweeper. TBolt is for water based teams.

Next, we have Azelf, the suicide lead for the team. Now, you've probably seen Sunny Day and are probably wondering "why?". It's to improve the teams matchup vs BD Azu and give Mega Houndoom access to it's ability. In the case of teams where Sunny Day is useful, Azelf will probably be kept back to set it when it's useful, and keep SR for later. It also stops Rain teams from just stomping everything.

Then, we have Hydreigon, the resident secondary wallbreaker/pivot. Every UU player knows who much of a pain it is to beat - It can run so many sets it's ridiculous, and this is just one of them.

Finally, we have Mega Houndoom, because why not. It fits the hyper offensive nature of the team and is pretty much one of the only psychic or dark megas in UU. It adds a second way to clean offensive teams and, with Solar Power boosts provided by Azelf, it can do significant work vs stallier teams.

Thanks, I'll add them to OP5!

 

[Niadev]

Oh lol Hoopa's getting suspected :P. Of course it'd be right after I submitted the Hoopa team :V. What's the protocool for this kind of thing? Ban it here during the suspect and keep it banned if it's banned in OU? Or only ban it after it's fate has been decided by the suspect and keep it around here during the suspect in OU (if all that makes sense)? If it's the former, you may have to remove that team :P

 

[Jajoken]

Oh lol Hoopa's getting suspected :P. Of course it'd be right after I submitted the Hoopa team :V. What's the protocool for this kind of thing? Ban it here during the suspect and keep it banned if it's banned in OU? Or only ban it after it's fate has been decided by the suspect and keep it around here during the suspect in OU (if all that makes sense)? If it's the former, you may have to remove that team :P

We're a tier-based meta, but suspect-testing doesn't directly effect the tiering. If you can go to the Smogon Dex and see Hoopa-U listed as OU, then its a legal follower in GaF and a legal overlord in OL+UL. If it ends up banned I'll remove it and give it a rank as a god, but until then, it remains as-is.

 

[Jajoken]

A few announcements!

First up, Hoopa-U has been banned from OU. Due our status as a tier-based meta, Hoopa-U can no longer be used as a follower in Gods and Followers. By extension, it also cannot be used as an overlord in Overlords and Underlings. It has been given an initial viability ranking of ★★★ (which may change after more testing) as well as a spot on the teambuilding archive. How effective do you think Hoopa-U is in comparison to other gods?

Next, Volcanion has been released for use in OU. As such, Volcanion may be used as a follower in Gods and Followers for part-Water and part-Fire gods as well as an overlord in Overlords and Underlings. What teams do you see yourself using Volcanion on?

Third, I thought I'd make a small resource for clerics in Gods and Followers, with the Pokemon separated by the team types they can be used on. Clerics are hard to fit on more offensive teams, but for balanced and stall-oriented teams, they're highly recommended for the ability to keep your god healthy!

Clerics

Wish

Heal Bell

Aromatherapy

Wish

Heal Bell

Wish

Healing Wish

Heal Bell

Wish

Heal Bell

Wish

Healing Wish

Heal Bell

Aromatherapy

None!

Wish

Heal Bell

Wish

Heal Bell

Aromatherapy

Heal Bell

Wish

Healing Wish

Heal Bell

Aromatherapy

None!

Wish

Heal Bell

Wish

Healing Wish (+Lunar Dance)

Heal Bell

Aromatherapy

Aromatherapy

Wish

Healing Wish (+Lunar Dance)

Heal Bell

Heal Bell

Wish

Healing Wish

Wish

Healing Wish

Heal Bell

Fourth...this is my 500th post! Small milestone in the grand scheme of things, but I haven't done any shoutouts before now, so I thought it might be fun!

Shoutouts!

For taking an interest in my projects and helping me out when I first started: The Reptile and Ghoul King
For coding and hosting my metas: xfix, Snaquaza, Pikachuun, Slayer95, The Immortal, urkerab, Latios`
For approving and commenting on my metas: Eevee General, The Immortal, unfixable
For being on the Gods and Followers council: InfernapeTropius11, Rhythms, Ransei, Chopin Alkaninoff
For giving me a badge: Eevee General
For following me: BoxcarJack, Dr. Phd. BJ, FOZ369, InfernapeTropius11, insane joker, Mr.PhoenixWright, nv, Ticktock, UmbreonGaming
For regularly engaging with/liking my posts/projects: InfernapeTropius11, nv, The Reptile, Ghoul King, mcFlareon, Quantum Tesseract, megaqwer:D, Swagodile, Jaguar360, Niadev, I like donkeys, Stitch98, zerobreaker000, Da Pizza Man, TotalAsteroid, Uselesscrab, sin(pi), G-Luke, Ticktock, dsm77773, AllJokesAside, HeadsILoseTailsYouWin, OU banned my masquerain and a bunch bunch more (sorry if I didn't tag you I still love you :C)
And the entire OM community! Thanks everyone!

 

[canno]

Volcanion is a very powerful Pokemon for both GnF and OnU. In God and Followers, it provides Fire-based teams with an answer to Water-type Pokemon. This is more notable in Ho-oh teams, but P-Don teams appreciate not having to force P-Don be the ultimate counter to bulky waters. Meanwhile, Volcanion itself can possibly being a god due to its unique typing that allows for a bunch of fun combinations. It will probably be at least 2 star ranked, although it despises P-Don itself.

In Overlord and Underlings it functions mostly the same, except better due to the lack of Ubers possibly threatening (mainly no PDon to completely ruin its life).

 

[Niadev]

Rest in peace my Hoopa-U HO team. I'm not bothered, it was pretty bad anyways. It kind of autolost to Talonflame teams, who just ripped it to bloody pieces, even with Sash Zam (shoutouts to megaqwer:D for teaching me this the hard way). Just want to point out Hoopa's not listed in the list of available GaF gods in the first post.

Anyways, on Volcanion:
I see Volcanion being better in OL+UL. Specs is monstrous lol, it's VERY difficult to truly counter. Not uncounterable but darned close. However, it's rocks weakness and lack of recovery outside of lefties means it's easy to wear down. I can see RestTalk being ideal for defensive jobs. Water has a ton of options because UU is pm Bulky Waters the Tier, also has some nice wallbreakers like Entei and Darmanitan. Not sure about ideal Volcanion spread, but I think at least 72 HP and 4 Def EVs will be ideal to take on Azu, with max sp.atk + modest and 180 speed. Alternatively, mixed could potentially be a thing in order to take on specially bulky walls. But Volc's going to be a FANTASTIC answer to CroCune. Mega Blastoise is a nice spinner/secondary wallbreaker, Suicune is suicune and can take on most Xard with RoarCM, I can just see it being pretty darned good.

GaF: Eh... I don't know tbh. It's kind of walled by PDon bar Earth Power and Gastrodon is common on those teams so it also kind of wants to run HP Grass. Basically, if you want to not be walled by Gastro and be walled by PDon, run HP Grass, and vice versa with Earth Power. Bulkier MMence with Refresh use choice locked sets not locked into HP Ice or something (which further reduces your Primal Donner Kebab team matchup btw) as setup bait, and giving MMence ANY setup opportunity is a horrible idea as a single DDance can end most non-Skarmory teams' lives there and then, and Lati@s, with Soul Dew especially, can switch in rather reliably tbh. Then again, most non Palkia water/Fire teams have a subpar matchup vs PDon. As a God, it's just generally got a poor follower typing for a meta with PDon, although tbh most water Gods not named Palkia kind of suck vs PDon teams anyways.

Hoopa-U in GaF could be decent as a God, has a nice type for Hyper Offensive teams (it was Lugia's #1 partner in Ladder month when it was legal in OU), with stuff like Weavile to decimate offensive teams not running Primal Donner Kebab or one of it's few counters, Bisharp to be the sweeper it always has been and be a Sticky Webs deterrent vs Bug teams. Psychic has nice stuff like MGarde, MAla (another offensive nightmare), and a few other things. However, it kind of sucks vs faster, more physical teams, but the same was said in OU. Difference here is it doesn't have 2 fantastic defensive pivots to exploit meaning stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill (Primal Donna again ffs why does the "standard" Primal Donner Kebab win vs so much lol) devastates it. I can see it doing poorly vs Yveltal teams who can priority KO it with either Yveltal Sucker Punch or some pursuit trapper. It also faces competition from Darkrai and Deo-A, but it has a debateably better follower typing so I can see it being maybe 3 stars based on follower typing alone.

Of course this is all theorymonning atm, Volc's only been out for a few hours at the time of posting. Even OU hasn't really had a chance to truly get to know Volcanion yet. I might consider trying a Hoopa team like I did with Genesect and Lando if we ever get another ladder month, but tbh I'll probably just go back to abusing MegaMence and Primal Groudon for the first couple days, if just to see if I can get back to being in top 50 :P

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hey! So viewing this over and discussing it with the OM room, I believe we should consider

Unbanning Geomancy and banning Xerneas

The discussion I had with this room came to the conclusion that Xerneas was complex banned, instead of banning Xerneas out-right geomancy was banned to avoid the Xerneas ban. This is in my mind a complex ban, because Geomancy on its own is not a move that is broken on every pokemon that uses is, unlike Chatter which has the potential to be broken on any pokemon that uses it based on RNG. Geomancy wouldn't be broken on Weavile, it wouldn't be broken on Gliscor and a various amount of other pokemon.

In Gods and followers the only two users capable of learning Geomancy are Smeargle and Xerneas, out of these two pokemon, only Xerneas is broken! This doesn't mean that Geomancy is a broken or overpowered move, it means that Xerneas with its assigned attributes and abilities becomes overwhelming for the Gods and followers metagame. Banning Geomancy was a way to avoid banning Xerneas.

When we look at a pokemon, we view it as an entity in itself. Wonder guard is a very good ability, but Shedinja isn't very good. Huge power is also a very good ability, but Azumarill isn't too with it, but Mega Mawile is. Xerneas is too good with Geomancy, but Smeargle isn't - the same logic should be applied, we ban the individual "broken" user, and not the move.

 

[dhelmise]

Hey! So viewing this over and discussing it with the OM room, I believe we should consider

Unbanning Geomancy and banning Xerneas

The discussion I had with this room came to the conclusion that Xerneas was complex banned, instead of banning Xerneas out-right geomancy was banned to avoid the Xerneas ban. This is in my mind a complex ban, because Geomancy on its own is not a move that is broken on every pokemon that uses is, unlike Chatter which has the potential to be broken on any pokemon that uses it based on RNG. Geomancy wouldn't be broken on Weavile, it wouldn't be broken on Gliscor and a various amount of other pokemon.

In Gods and followers the only two users capable of learning Geomancy are Smeargle and Xerneas, out of these two pokemon, only Xerneas is broken! This doesn't mean that Geomancy is a broken or overpowered move, it means that Xerneas with its assigned attributes and abilities becomes overwhelming for the Gods and followers metagame. Banning Geomancy was a way to avoid banning Xerneas.

When we look at a pokemon, we view it as an entity in itself. Wonder guard is a very good ability, but Shedinja isn't very good. Huge power is also a very good ability, but Azumarill isn't too with it, but Mega Mawile is. Xerneas is too good with Geomancy, but Smeargle isn't - the same logic should be applied, we ban the individual "broken" user, and not the move.

That was not the conclusion. Banning a move is not a complex ban. YOUR conclusion was that Xerneas was complex banned when Xerneas wasn't banned at all, and the ROOM's conclusion was that the current ban was fine. Geomancy being banned does not make Xerneas complex banned because moves and Pokemon are two separate things. A complex ban is banning a specific Pokemon from being used with a move, ability, weather condition, or item, not banning a move in general. Your argument that Geomancy and Chatter are different is flawed because you say Chatter has potential to be broken on any Pokemon that uses it, when two Pokemon can learn it, just like Geomancy, and Smeargle is irrelevant in both cases because it is not an attacker in this meta nor is it a viable BP user. Your argument that Geomancy wouldn't be broken on Weavile or Gliscor is also flawed because that does not apply to this meta, because neither of those learn those moves. Geomancy is broken because it causes the one viable user of the move to be overpowered, which is why we banned it and not Xerneas. We also did not complex ban Xerneas + Geomancy, Xerneas + Power Herb, or Xerneas + Power Herb + Geomancy because there's no need to complex ban a move when only one relevant Pokemon learns it.

Xerneas in itself is not broken as a God. GeoXern is a broken God because it causes almost the entire meta to be outsped and OHKOed by Xerneas unless it's +3 EKiller Arceus or +2 SD Mega Ray, and the latter of which is banned. We didn't ban Xerneas because the only element about it that was broken was Geomancy, but again, there's no need to complex ban a move that only one relevant Pokemon learns when the one Pokemon that learns it shows potential out of GeoXern. There's still CM Xern, ScarfXern, and a lot others, none of which are over-centralizing or broken or any way. Yes, banning Geomancy was used to avoid banning Xerneas because Xerneas didn't need to be banned.

We don't look at a lot of Pokemon as one entity. Yes, Wonder Guard is insanely good, Shedinja isn't. Huge Power is good; however, that's where your "logic" stops making sense. Azumarill is really decent with Huge Power, so I don't know where you got it that it sucks. Mega Mawile is good too, better than Azumarill, and that's why it's Uber in standard tiering. None of this applies to G&F, however. If we're using this logic, Geomancy is a good move, and that's where it stops. Xerneas is a good Pokemon, and again, that's where it stops. Yes, Xerneas + Geomancy is insanely good, but that's why we banned Geomancy. Why would we ban a Pokemon when being broken with an individual move is the only thing that causes it to be broken? Again, with your logic, that's why we banned Geomancy. Xerneas is too good with Geomancy, but it as a Pokemon with other sets is nowhere close to as broken as GeoXern, which is why we banned the move and not the user.

 

[Lcass4919]

Hey! So viewing this over and discussing it with the OM room, I believe we should consider

Unbanning Geomancy and banning Xerneas

The discussion I had with this room came to the conclusion that Xerneas was complex banned, instead of banning Xerneas out-right geomancy was banned to avoid the Xerneas ban. This is in my mind a complex ban, because Geomancy on its own is not a move that is broken on every pokemon that uses is, unlike Chatter which has the potential to be broken on any pokemon that uses it based on RNG. Geomancy wouldn't be broken on Weavile, it wouldn't be broken on Gliscor and a various amount of other pokemon.

In Gods and followers the only two users capable of learning Geomancy are Smeargle and Xerneas, out of these two pokemon, only Xerneas is broken! This doesn't mean that Geomancy is a broken or overpowered move, it means that Xerneas with its assigned attributes and abilities becomes overwhelming for the Gods and followers metagame. Banning Geomancy was a way to avoid banning Xerneas.

When we look at a pokemon, we view it as an entity in itself. Wonder guard is a very good ability, but Shedinja isn't very good. Huge power is also a very good ability, but Azumarill isn't too with it, but Mega Mawile is. Xerneas is too good with Geomancy, but Smeargle isn't - the same logic should be applied, we ban the individual "broken" user, and not the move.

chatter wouldnt be broken on weavile, neither would swagger. i dont see the logic behind this. you cant just say "its not banworthy on every mon" you have to say "its not banworthy on the mons who use it good." i could argue for swagger, shadow tag, and even wonder guard with this mentality and shut down every argument you make with this very argument you preposed.

geomancy has been proven through various metas, that on ANY mon, its a threat. if you gave togekiss geomancy in OU would it be "manageable"? same with something like clefable, or keldeo, or anything of that sort. i just listed three pokemon who would be broken with geomancy..the only issue is they dont get geomancy. your entire argument assumes nothing relevant will get geomancy in the future. which is always a possibility, considering almost every "signature move" nowadays has more then one user.

your argument has way too many flaws, sorry. ban xern because as a mon xern is broken. not because "irrelevant mons suck with geomancy!!" because irrelevant mons also suck with swagger, chatter, wonder guard, and shadow tag. and geo would also break mons that would appreciate geomancy, eg: togekiss, keldeo, clefable, etc.

on top of this, banning moves is not complex banning. this is a stupid thought that was demolished the second swagger clause became near universal. complex is literally what you would think it is: complicated(complex) banning(ban). a ban that takes a bunch of loopholes to get to the end result, eg: banning speed boost SPECIFICLY on blaziken, or banning double edge SPECIFICALLY on scrappy kanga(bad example) banning a move is in NO way complicated. its just that in the history of pokemon no move has PUSHED that boundary.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Lcass4919 pretty much convinced me, we'll just let the metagame be played and be fun for now, and if the problem rises again we'll address it then. I wrote my half finished response below though, if you're interested - just don't bother replying - keep me out of any further discussion as I do not hold these opinions as of right now. Thank you!

Hide

Rhythms, xJownage and Lcass4919 - Let me try to respond to all of you at once :) And sorry Rhythms, I mean I drew the conclusion that I should speak up about this, not let it sit in the back.

It should come down to consistency, because there's a thin line we go down when it comes to subjectivity and objectivity. So, we agree that Smeargle isn't broken with Geomancy and Xerneas is broken with Geomancy, and we ban Geomancy, and lets be fair now, you would've banned Geomancy even if Smeargle didn't learn it - because it literally doesn't matter if it does or doesn't because it's useless. Then we would be going down the road of subjectivity, and that's a road equal to the objectified one. Where you, the leaders, personally figure out what breaks a mon then removes said aspect.

Right now, banning Xerneas is perfect. It solves the problem, and leaves you with one set to play with (Scarf, everything else outclassed by Arceus-Fairy). But in the long term, it's horrible. What if there's new pokemon introduced in SM that we ban to, but you can just remove one or two aspects of them and now they're balanced. Or Mega-Rayquaza, if we just... Remove the item slot. It would take up such a large amount of time.

I realise I'm not going to convince you all, it's impossible to address all your concerns at one time, especially when arguing with three people, but the broader part of my argument is:

It's to subjective, Xerneas either is or isn't broken, if you remove on aspect of a pokemon then you're starting on a slippery slope until you're banning hundreds of things to make sure everything is playable - this will take up to much time to feasible

 

[Jajoken]

Most everyone has said what I wanted to say, but I'll chime in with another example and some additional background about G+F banning philosophy.

Middle Cup banned Protean and Contrary, two abilities which tipped Frogadier and Servine over the edge, rather than the Pokemon themselves. A reason that was given in the thread was that, because of the small pool of legal Pokemon in Middle Cup, the managers of the OM wanted to opt for bans that would preserve the highest amount of legal Pokemon while also keeping the metagame balanced.

Like the Geomancy ban, these bans were not complex, they just happened to only affect one Pokemon and thus a ban of the whole ability affected only those Pokmeon. And like Middle Cup's limited pool of middle evolutions, Gods and Followers has a limited pool of Ubers gods. This is especially relevant with Xerneas, as it's the only Fairy-typed Uber aside from Arceus-Fairy. In such a Dragon-spammy OM, a lack of strong Fairies could end up being a problem for overall balance. That somewhat-questionable point aside, I'd prefer to preserve a diverse pool of god choices in any case.

I would not be opposed to banning Xerneas, but from where I stand right now, it doesn't seem necessary or healthy. We have plenty of "legal" precedent from other OMs in banning Geomancy, and banning Xerneas would IMO make the meta less balanced and enjoyable, which seems like a silly price to pay to satisfy a minor technicality.

You can make the slippery slope argument all you want, but as the person actually calling the shots, I can safely say that this will be the only G+F-unique move/ability ban of this generation. We will also not make any complex bans (not that this ban is one), which is the reason I haven't even attempted to look at testing normal Arceus as a few people suggested in the past (I don't really agree that it's broken, but that's neither here nor there). There's no logical way to restrict it without breaking all sorts of banning etiquette. I care about presenting my OM "legally," which is why I referenced several other OMs while proposing the ban in the first place. That's why I think that the Geomancy was both the best option based on my experiences with other metas, as well as internally the best option from a G+F standpoint.

 

[The Immortal]

Please don't use other OMs as precedent. They don't really follow the standards set by OU; they don't have any standards to follow because they are OMs. Off course I try and make the big OMs follow standard philosophies (BH/AAA/Mono for example), but smaller OMs such as Middle Cup pretty much do what they please. I'm not gonna tell you what to do because Gods and Followers isn't represented on the main server. Ideally, yes, Xerneas should be banned and not Geomancy.

 

[Jajoken]

Middle Cup has resources on the main site and AAA and STABmons (which I also referenced) have permaladders. I'm not pulling random stuff like "oh, but Linked banned this" -- I think it makes sense to look at other official and semi-official OMs when deciding this stuff.

In any case Geomancy is still banned sorry.

EDIT: Also I forgot to post it earlier but Quantum Tesseract has been added to the council!

 

[Jajoken]

This post has been a long time coming, but I've been caught up in summer work with limited internet. Apologies.

Gods and Followers has retained its basic premise since its inception, but the punishment for god-death has shifted quite a bit. Originally, that punishment was a -1 priority debuff. It was changed to Curse to fairly effect all playstyles rather than mostly just screwing over offense. Prior to its OMotM victory, there were external and internal debates about changing it again, but I put a hold on the discussion to focus on the OM's ladder run.

After a council vote of 5 in support and 1 abstaining, the Curse effect has been replaced with that of Embargo.
Tagging Slayer95 and urkerab to update the code on the Pandora and ROM servers. Contact me if there any questions or concerns about this.

Embargo: This move prevents the target from using its held item.
Its Trainer is also prevented from using items on it.
​

Now, I'll elaborate on why the effect was changed in the first place and what effect the council hopes it will have on the meta.

While Curse fit from both a thematic and gameplay standpoint, it also limited the metagame in a number of ways. For one, comebacks were nearly impossible. Losing 1/4 of your HP per turn with no escape was so detrimental to victory that many players who found themselves in this position would simply forfeited as soon as their god fell. Many others would be too afraid to bring their god out in the first place. Also, as Chopin Alkaninoff has pointed out, having such a stiff punishment allowed for hax to play a more unhealthy role than it does in most metas: if your god is hit with a poorly timed crit, burn or absurd damage roll, you not only lose that Pokemon, but you'd probably lose the game as well. Finally, some otherwise-powerful gods saw limited play on the ladder because it was simply to great a risk to use them. Darkrai and Deoxys-A were huge threats on their own, but if you missed Dark Void or get Pursuit trapped, you'd completely screw over your entire team and throw the game.

I believe that Embargo will not only fix these problems, but that it will promote more interesting gameplay overall. Here are some of the reasons we settled on Embargo over other punishments:

• All playstyles and nearly all Pokemon are reliant on their items to succeed: defensive Pokemon need Leftovers to comfortably avoid 2HKOs and stay healthy, while offensive Pokemon need items like Life Orb/Choice Band/Choice Specs to keep their damage output high enough to be relevant. AV users and Scarfers need their item to fulfill their role of tanking hits or outspeeding foes. This is why Knock Off is such a deadly move: even Pokemon that can take the damage (like Clefable) hate switching into it. Forced Embargo on the whole team is a serious blow to all non-Mega, non-itemless Pokemon, so god-fainting is still a significant event that will change the course of the game.
• At the same time, a team of itemless Pokemon still has room to succeed with smart play. If you're in a position to win late-game, you may want to risk your god if you know you can succeed without all the extra damage and utility your items provide. This makes utilizing your god more of a balanced risk-reward than the Curse variant, which is high-risk and comparatively low-reward. Because of this, frailer gods are still riskier picks, but they have much higher potential especially in the hands of a skilled player.
• Because Embargo effects all roles a bit differently, it encourages smarter teambuilding. The only way to make a Curse-resistant team was to pick something like Mewtwo and load up your team with Magic Guard Pokemon. Now, you can make a conscious effort to reduce the effect of Embargo on your team if you're the type of player that wants to play boldly with your god. Using a strong Mega Pokemon, an Acrobatics user or something that only needs its item for a limited time (like Gliscor or Guts Heracross) allows an offensive player to keep an ace in their back pocket in the scenario their god falls. If a player is too reckless, they'll lose regardless, but I think that the lack of Curse opens up a number of options that simply weren't present in G+F before.

Feel free to discuss the effects of this change on the metagame. Hopefully the servers where G+F is playable will be updated soon, so we can get some firsthand experience with the new version.

Finally, as a small teaser, fans of Gods and Followers should stay tuned for this fall. That's all that I'll say for now.

Soon

EDIT: urkerab updated the code on the ROM server! If you'd like to play the new version, that's where to go.​