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Goodbye 4th Gen (An OU RMT)

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by NightShadow, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    Hey guys, this is my last RMT I'm going to make for the 4th generation of Pokemon. TBH 4th gen was THE best generation yet. Disagree if you will but this is my opinion, and I hope 5th gen can top that. This team is about Lucario, arguably THE best late-game cleaner.

    The general concept of this team was to set-up as many layers of entry hazards as possible excluding Toxic Spikes, screen with something, use something as destructive as possible to weaken the opponents defensive core, then sweep with Lucario.

    I will likely be keeping this team through 5th gen though I will definitely upgrade it with 5th gen pokes. I already have some ideas ;)

    Team at a Glance:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Team Building Process:
    So I obviously needed a Lucario at first.
    [​IMG]
    Because my concept was to have as many entry hazards as possible, I obviously needed Spikes and Stealth Rock. Since Spikes is arguably harder to set-up, I choose to lead with that. For future reference, I HATE leading with slower leads. And the only best fast Spiker lead is Froslass, who, admittedly is BL, though it functions excellently on this team.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    So now I needed a Stealth Rock user, so I choose Bronzong because of its great amount of resistances, courtesy of its Steel typing.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    So now I needed an excellent Dual Screener. You may argue that this is unnecessary with Swords Dance Lucario, but generally I feel a lot safer behind screens, and it gives my frail sweepers some much needed bulk. I choose Rotom-W for two things: one, for its ability to block Rapid Spin as well as set-up screens, and two, for its ability to deal with Heatran, the king of OU.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now I needed two reliable revenge killers. The first one that jumped to mind was Infernape. Then I also thought about Choice Scarf Tyranitar. So that was two revenge killers (also Scarfers) on my team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After testing this A LOT, I realized that I had absolutely NO reliable switch-in to Thunder Wave, which completely crippled my team. After some MORE testing, I found Swampert to be effective, and put it in place of Bronzong.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After even more testing, I found that two Scarfers, even with this kind of defensive support (it isn't a lot, I know, but it’s a lot for me, because I love running hyper offense teams, though I wanted a change this time) was rather overwhelming, and so I made Infernape a physically based mixed wallbreaker, which helped Lucario A LOT in sweeping. Then I found Tyranitar to be underwhelming as a revenge killer, so I replaced it with Choice Scarf Starmie.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Under the Microscope:
    [​IMG]

    Froslass @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Destiny Bond
    - Ice Beam
    ---

    Role: This is my lead. Its sole purpose in life is to aid Lucario in sweeping by getting up as many layers of Spikes as possible. It also has a useful Ghost typing, which blocks spin. However, because of the suicidal nature of Froslass, the score is usually 6-5 or 5-5.

    Moveset: Spikes is pretty self-explanatory, and with 3 layers of it, Lucario already has a much easier time sweeping. Taunt stops slow leads like Swampert or Skarmory from setting-up on me, though I don't really mind most of the time since my Pokemon aren't really weak to entry hazards. Destiny Bond can possibly net me a free kill, and it usually does. Ice Beam is more or less just a filler move, and it gives me a useful STAB option. Ice Beam over Shadow Ball because of the higher base power and better type coverage.

    EVs, Nature and Item: 252 Speed EVs with Timid nature are mandatory, and it allows me to reach 350 Speed. 252 Special Attack EVs simply to power up Ice Beam, but it is also just a filler. Focus Sash allows me to always survive at least one hit, which is needed for something as frail as Froslass.

    Possible changes: None right now, unless you can think of an even faster Spiker which can be utilized effectively in OU.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    Swampert @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpD
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    ---

    Role: Originally I had Bronzong in this position. Because of that, paralysis crippled my team. When I say crippled, I mean if paralysis happens to strike any one of my important sweepers, I would have a great chance of losing. I obviously noticed that, and so I put Swampert, which countered an endless amount of dangerous Pokemon and gave me a reliable switch in to Thunder Wave. This is also an excellent phazer. This is also my Stealth Rock user, as it supports Lucario in the same way as Froslass, but with a much more defensive notion. Swampert also has a extremely useful position as the only Torment Heatran counter, which I used to find incredibly annoying when I still used Bronzong.

    Moveset: The moveset itself is pretty standard. Stealth Rock is pretty much a necessity for this team, as it concentrates on getting as many entry hazards up as possible. Roar phases excellently and it helps me deal with a great amount of threats, namely set-up sweepers. The only difference between this and the Smogon set is the last two attacking move choices. Earthquake and Waterfall are my Swampert’s obligatory stab moves. It lists Ice Beam instead, but now that Salamence is Ubers, Ice Beam is more or less only used on Pokemon with a 4x weakness to Ice (Celebi , Shaymin and Roserade are too bulky), namely Dragonite and Flygon. Dragonite is way too bulky to take much from Ice Beam with no investment, and Adamant Choice Scarf Flygon is adequately handled by my own revenge killer, Starmie. Because of this, I chose Earthquake and Waterfall as its obligatory STAB moves.

    EVs, Nature and Item: Almost completely standard. The EVs are the same as the ones listed on the official Smogon analysis. The item choice is obvious for a tank like Swampert. I used Impish instead of Relaxed because I don’t mind the lower Special Attack since I do not utilize any special moves.

    Possible Changes: None, I’m very happy with Swampert.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-w @ Light Clay
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 56 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Discharge
    - Shadow Ball
    ---

    Role: This serves as my screener. It may seem unnecessary, but as I said earlier, I feel a lot safer behind screens. Besides, I like seeing my opponent’s Pokemon doing pathetic damage against my supposedly “frail” sweepers. This also serves as my spin-blocker, and it is a great one. Whenever I see a potential Rapid Spin coming up, I go straight to Rotom-w, and it is bulky enough to survive any attack that the spinner may dish out.

    Moveset: Pretty standard as well. Reflect and Light Screen are there for obvious reasons, and they support Lucario and Infernape very well. Discharge is used over Thunderbolt because of the 30% paralysis chance, and I don’t really mind the power drop. Shadow Ball is there for a reliable secondary STAB move.

    EVs, Nature and Item: Also completely standard and are all taken off of the official Smogon analysis. Light Clay is there to make my screens incredibly annoying due to their ridiculous longevity.

    Possible Changes: I was thinking about replacing Shadow Ball with Hydro Pump so I can have a secondary Torment Heatran counter alongside Swampert. Also, I may change this with Rotom-h or Rotom-c instead, since Rotom-c can maim Pokemon like opposing Vaporeon or Hippowdon but more importantly opposing Swampert, and Rotom-h can maul Pokemon like Skarmory or Forretress.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 64 SpA / 192 Spe
    Naïve Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Overheat
    ---

    Role: This is my mixed sweeper, Infernape. It is a physically based one, as opposed to the more popular specially based one. Its role is simple. Wreak as much havoc until it dies. By then, their team will have been significantly weakened, which allows Lucario to sweep. Almost no combination of walls can defeat this Infernape, unless they have ridiculously lucky and/or skilled prediction.

    Moveset: Close Combat and Overheat are Infernape’s STAB moves. Overheat hits incredibly hard, even with this Infernape’s small EV investment on special attack. Close Combat demolishes things like Blissey and Tyranitar. Stone Edge is for more coverage, and it hits stuff like Gyarados and Dragonite for super effective damage. U-turn scouts excellently.

    EVs, Nature and Item: 252 Speed EVs combined with a Naïve nature allow me to outspeed all positively natured base 100’s, most notably non-Choice Scarf Celebi and Jirachi. U-turn maims Celebi and Overheat mauls Jirachi. Life Orb is an obvious item choice, as it increases the damage output significantly.

    Possible Changes: None at all right now. Honestly, ever since the departure of Salamence, there haven’t been any completely reliable mixed sweepers. Dragonite, Electivire and Mamoswine are both too slow, and have mediocre special attack stats. Infernape is extremely frail. I may change this set to the specially based one.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    Starmie @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    ---

    Role: Meet my revenge killer, Choice Scarf Starmie. It revenge kills a good portion of the metagame, like Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragonite and Gyarados at +1 speed, Celebi, Jirachi, etc. STAB Surfs coming off 328 base special attack hurt. That’s all I have to say.

    Moveset: Surf is Starmie’s obvious STAB move. It maims Tyranitar badly along with a whole collection of other stuff. Ice Beam hits Dragons like Dragonite or Flygon for super effective damage, as well as things like Celebi. Thunderbolt is primarily for Gyarados, which Surf and Ice Beam fail to do much damage to. Trick destroys common walls that would have walled Starmie, such as Snorlax or Blissey.

    EVs, Nature and Item: The EVs for Starmie are obvious. The nature is Modest over Timid because the extra power is very welcome. However, I lose my ability to revenge kill Choice Scarf Flygon.

    Possible Changes: Perhaps replace this with a different revenge killer like Choice Scarf Jirachi or Flygon?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Extremespeed
    - Crunch
    ---

    Role Swords Dance Lucario is the best late-game cleaner in the history of Pokemon. Swords Dance Scizor lacks the raw power of STAB Close Combat, Calm Mind Suicune and Life Orb Starmie lack a priority move. Dragon Dance Gyarados, Dragonite and Tyranitar all have 4x super effective weaknesses and are all very slow, even after a Dragon Dance. Agility Metagross lacks the coverage of Lucario. STAB Close Combats coming off 700 attack severely maims just about everthing which does’t resist it. At late-game, if you let this get +2, prepare to say “gg”.

    Moveset: Swords Dance is there for obvious reasons. At +2, Lucario’s attack reaches astronomical levels, 700 to be exact. With 700 attack, Lucario 180 base power Close Combat (STAB boost factored in) demolishes even the most physically bulky walls. Crunch maims things like Dusknoir and Rotom-a, as well as bulky Psychics like Uxie. Extremespeed picks fast things off, like Choice Scarf Flygon who would’ve revenge killed me.

    EVs, Nature and Item: These are all very self-explanatory. 252 attack and speed EVs with an Adamant nature maximize Lucario’s physical sweeping potential. Life Orb boosts Lucario’s already high damage output to ridiculous levels.

    Possible Changes: Lolwut?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A Final Glance:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    End Notes:
    This is probably my favorite team that I ever made. I accept all constructive criticism. Go ahead. As long as it is constructive and you state reasons.

    Thanks!
  2. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    Threat list

    Threat list:
    Instead of talking about how I deal with every single thing, I will talk about which Pokemon threaten my team a lot.

    1.
    [​IMG]
    LO DD Kingdra / ChestoRest Kingdra

    The things is, I revenge kill every single Dragon Dancer with Starmie. Except for this one, courtesy of its amazing Water/Dragon typing. It is 4x resistant to Starmie’s STAB Surf, and neutral to Surf and Thunderbolt. The only thing I can do is Trick it my Choice Scarf, and by then they’ll be expecting Trick (then they’ll have +1 attack and +2 speed locked in) and will just Outrage me for the OHKO. I’ve just lost my revenge killer. Then it can continue Outraging. I usually switch in to something else, usually Rotom-w who can take an Outrage. Though Outrage cripples it. I’ve just lost my screener. Then hopefully it will be in KO range for my Lucario’s unboosted Extremespeed. I have to wait until Life Orb wears it down.

    As for the ChestoRest Kingdra, that’s just even more annoying than the regular LO Kingdra. When I wear it down eventually, it suddenly Rests. Yep. This demolishes this team. All because of that DAMN WATER/DRAGON typing. And, what’s worse, is that Kingdra’s usage is on the rise. Fml.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That’s all I can think of right now. If I find more over the course of my testing, I will update this post.
  3. tobi10

    tobi10

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2009
    Messages:
    421
    I will not give you a full rate, but I can say that I have a better Froslass set for you:

    Froslass @ Focus Sash
    Snow Cloak
    252 Spe / 252 SpAtk / 4 Def
    Timid

    Spikes
    Taunt
    Icy Wind
    Shadow Ball

    With this set you can actually beat Azelf and Aerodactyl. Icy Wind has a guaranteed Speed drop on the opponent, and happens to have enough power to 2HKO Aerodactyl and Azelf in tandem of Shadow Ball. This way you manage to break their sashes, lower their Speed for Infernape to finish them and get Spikes as well! It is probably the best Froslass set in OU. And this also means that you can severly damage Rotom-A, too.

    Good Luck with your team, I hope I had helped :)

    Edit* At a second glance, I noticed a Substitute Rotom-A and offensive Suicune weakness, I would use a Jolly nature on Lucario to beat every offensive Rotom and Suicune that might get on your way (with Spikes you OHKO Suicune) Since you have Spikes I guess that running a Speed boosting nature is ok. I have used Spikes + Jolly SD Luke before and it is still pretty effective.

    Second Edit** You stated that DD Kingdra gives you problems, and that you considered changing your revenge killer. A Pokémon that works really well with Spikes and can revenge kill many threats effectively, and without a Pursuit weakness is the good, old Flygon! A set consisting of Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Thunder Punch / U-turn. Even though he cannot use Trick, he has a few niches over Starmie, notably the ability to beat Tyranitar reliably as well as Agility Metagross and U.turn. My second fix would be using mixed Dragonite over Infernape. You stated that it is too slow to be an effective wall.breaker, but its bulk and typing are deadly against both stall and offensive teams. Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / Extremespeed
    does what Infernape did, beat Skarmbliss and lure Gyarados effectively, but it adds an extra check to DD Kingdra and Gyarados with Extremespeed.

    This is all I have to say. I might have changed your team too much, but you are free to use / ignore my suggestions; good luck regardless :)
  4. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    @legendary 07: I'll definitely try out ScarfGon though i'm not sure about Dragon Claw/Outrage. But with Flygon I can revenge kill all DDers INCLUDING kingdra :D thanks for the suggestion. I'm still a bit unsure about Dragonite. I never did like it much and it had a weakness to SR, but i'll try it :D

    ty for the rate :)
  5. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    Bumping last time today so I can have more posts tomorrow :D
  6. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Cool team.

    Threats

    • Bulky Waters (Suicune/Vaporeon)
    • LO Starmie
    • Offensive Swampert
    • Substitute/Wish CM Jirachi
    This is an excellent team you have here as you've already covered almost all of the common threats in the current metagame, although you're still weak to a couple of Pokemon which if given the opportunity to set up can rampage through your team (provided that the opposing Pokemon's teammates provide sufficient support, of course). Bulky waters are the premiere threats to this team, specifically CM Suicune and Wish Vaporeon as if they are offensively orientated, there's nothing much on your team that can stop them from sweeping; LO Starmie also falls in a similar vein. Continuing on, offensive Swampert also seem to give your team problems; specifically the curse set as with some support, it, like the aforementioned bulky waters can slowly wear down your team. Finally Substitute/Wish Jirachi presents a threat as with Wish or Substitute, it can fail your attempts at revenge killing while consistently raising its own offensive potential through Calm Mind.

    Solutions

    • Lead Roserade
    [box][​IMG]
    Roserade @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes[/box]
    Luckily, one change can be made to help with all of the aforementioned threats, while at the same time, slightly improving the general structure and strategy your team uses. I suggest replacing Frosslass with a lead Roserade variant as shown above. Roserade can provide an excellent Pokemon to set up the entry hazards of your choice (I recommend Toxic Spikes as it will help you deal with bulky waters), while also being able to survive for long periods of time, allowing it to also perform as a formidable check to the likes of Suicune, Swampert, Starmie and CM Jirachi courtesy of its great special bulk. Although I recommend using the Toxic Spikes lead set as the entry hazard helps against bulky foes, while also being able to incapacitate a Pokemon with Sleep Powder, you can also test using the Spikes Roserade set as it functions in a similar way, although it provides Spikes support. I hope this helped, and good luck!
  7. Faladran

    Faladran
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    I like Aerrow's suggestion; Roserade really helps out your team against opposing Bulky Waters, while retaining the ability to provide entry hazard support. The only problem would be that you lose access to Spikes, which are arguably more useful for this team. Toxic Spikes are better suited towards teams that aim to stall out the opponent with bulky stat-upping sweepers such as Crocune and SubCM Jirachi. One option would be to lead with a different team member (Swampert, perhaps) and move Roserade to a more support-inclined role. The Spikes Roserade set that was linked to could be useful in this regard, as it will give you an extremely Specially bulky spikestacker. Overall, Spikes provide better support for your fast, offensive sweepers; LO Starmie and Infernape, in particular, can cause a lot of destruction with entry hazard support. Finally, I'd like to suggest trying out a Jolly nature on Lucario. This will allow you to outspeed opposing Lucario and non-Scarf Rotom-A. If you feel like trying something new, you could even go with Agility Lucario over your current set:

    [box][​IMG]
    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Agility
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch
    - Crunch[/box]
    Swords Dance Lucario is a great sweeper, but good players tend to be well-prepared for it. The Agility set manages to surprise quite a few of Lucario's usual counters by outspeeding and KOing most of them. Scarf Rotom-A, Gengar, and Gliscor are all beaten with the appropriate move. Since you have entry hazards on this team, the loss of power from Swords Dance is tolerable; with a Life Orb, Lucario is still capable of hitting quite hard, particularly with Spikes down and the opponent weakened somewhat. Due to the effectiveness of this set with Spikes support, I would definitely encourage you to at least give it a try.

    Good luck with your team!
  8. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    @Aerrow: I'm going to test out Roserade as soon as I download PokeOnline. thanks! I may use a bulkier version of it.

    @Faladran: I'm kinda unsure about jolly lucario, solely because i like having 700 attack at +2 :D but i'll def try it out. thanks!

    BUMPING
  9. Faladran

    Faladran
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    It may turn out that you prefer an Adamant nature on Lucario. However, Jolly does give you the advantage outspeeding some very notable threats, such as the ones mentioned earlier. One thing to keep in mind is that while the extra power that an Adamant nature grants may be appealing, you don't need to be hitting as hard as possible to win; Lucario just needs to be powerful enough to sweep through weakened teams. This is already probable due to Lucario's high damage output and the fact that it is typically saved for late-game situations, but since you're also utilizing Spikes on this team, opponents should be weakened enough to be swept through without much trouble by the time Lucario is sent out.

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