Greninja

DaAwesomeDude1

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[OVERVIEW]

Greninja doesn't have much use in Doubles because it is very niche, outclassed by many other Pokemon, and only able to hit specific Pokemon for major damage. This, however, allows Greninja to be tailored to KO specific Pokemon that threaten your team thanks to its insane coverage movepool combined with its high Speed and Protean. Although it has mediocre offensive stats and is extremely frail, Protean, which gives it STAB on every move it uses, and its blazing Speed, which allows it to outrun most of the unboosted metagame, most notably Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross, more than makes up for it. Unfortunately, Greninja is easily beaten by Trick Room and Tailwind offensive teams as well as Pokemon that can outrun it and hit hard, such as Timid Shaymin-S and common Choice Scarf users. Most importantly, Greninja is limited by what coverage moves it can use.

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Protect
item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
ability: Protean
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Bear in mind that these are just standard moves that most Greninja would run; due to its large movepool, its set can vary depending on the needs of your team. Despite its unreliable accuracy, Hydro Pump is Greninja's strongest move and should be its go-to move against Pokemon that are neutral to it. Ice Beam provides good coverage and allows Greninja to hit common Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Hydreigon. Dark Pulse is used to hit bulky Psychic- and Ghost-types, such as Creseelia, Jirachi, Mega Metagross, and Aegislash harder. Protect can alleviate Greninja's frailty by shielding it from a potential OHKO and letting it Greninja stall out opposing Tailwind and Trick Room turns, which allows it to possibly be effective for a turn longer.

Set Details
========

252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature ensure that Greninja has maximum Speed. 252 Special Attack EVs maximize Greninja's damage output. Life Orb is the preferred item, as Greninja's offensive stats are quite mediocre; also, Greninja doesn't mind Life Orb recoil that much because it is frail. Focus Sash can also be used, though, as it allows Greninja to take a hit from Pokemon that are faster than it and would otherwise OHKO it, such as Shaymin-S, enabling it to carry out its role and attack, potentially netting an OHKO; the drop in power is very noticeable, however.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja works best as a late-game cleaner because its coverage moves, high Speed, and Protean allow it to outrun and hit a lot of Pokemon for super effective damage. It can also be used during early-game, as it puts a lot of offensive pressure on your opponent from the start with its unpredictable moveset, provided that your opponent does not lead with a Fake Out user. Despite its frailty, Greninja can be used defensively as well, such as by using an attack to change its type so that it gains a resistance or immunity to a predicted incoming attack. Because Greninja is so frail, it isn't recommended to switch it into attacks, however.

Team Options
========

Greninja appreciates Helping Hand support, which gives a boost to its average offensive stats; Helping Hand allows Greninja to OHKO Mega Metagross with Dark Pulse as well as standard Amoonguss with Ice Beam. Pokemon such as Jirachi and Togekiss work best because they also provide redirection support to mitigate Greninja's low bulk, as well as speed control to allow Greninja to outrun and threaten foes that would otherwise beat it, such as Shaymin-S. Cresselia also works well with Greninja, as it can provide Helping Hand support, use Icy Wind to slow down opposing Pokemon that are faster than Greninja, such as Shaymin-S, and even reverse opposing Trick Room while Greninja uses Protect, allowing Greninja to become a fast, powerful threat again. Thundurus is another Pokemon that provides speed control while also being able to prevent opposing speed control, such as Thunder Wave and Tailwind, with Taunt. It, along with other Electric-types, such as Zapdos and Thundurus-T, can check Water-types that wall Greninja's standard set, especially Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and Keldeo. Keep in mind that Thundurus-T needs a Choice Scarf in order to check Keldeo, as it is unable to tank a Hydro Pump. Greninja, in turn, helps them out by checking Rock-types, such as Mega Diancie and Terrakion. Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir are both great offensive partners for Greninja, as they are able to check Fighting-types, which threaten Greninja, such as Conkeldurr, as well as Mega Venusaur in the case of Mega Gardevoir. They also provide a powerful spread STAB move which allows Greninja to finish off opposing weakened Pokemon in Hyper Voice. Spread moves in general work well with Greninja, as although it can outspeed and KO a lot of Pokemon, it is still vulnerable to its other foes if its partner isn't able to KO the foe. They are also benefited greatly by Greninja's ability to remove threats to them such as Mega Metagross, Aegislash, and Heatran.

Other options include Talonflame, which checks bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss, and Mega Venusaur, which checks bulky Water-types, which Greninja has trouble breaking through. Terrakion and Breloom are other offensive options because Greninja is able to check Aegislash, which walls both of their STAB moves, as well as opposing Flying-types in the case of Breloom. In return, they both check Ferrothorn; Terrakion can also check Talonflame while Breloom can also check bulky Water-types. If Greninja is running Blizzard, Mega Abomasnow is a great partner because it checks bulky Grass-types, which Greninja has trouble breaking through and because Greninja works well as a Blizzard spammer in hail. Mega Kangaskhan is a fantastic partner, as it provides a lot of offensive pressure in conjunction with Greninja. Greninja appreciates the Fake Out support that Mega Kangaskhan offers, as the chip damage is handy and the move can also protect Greninja from an attack while it does more damage. Greninja's ability to hit Pokemon that wall Mega Kangaskhan, most notably Aegislash, benefits it greatly. Greninja can also be used to force opportunities to allow Mega Kangaskhan to set up with Power-Up Punch by sniping certain Pokemon.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Greninja has a myriad of moves that can be used based on the Pokemon that you need to hit on your team. Hidden Power Grass is an option to hit Politoed and Swampert and is generally better than Grass Knot, as it deals more damage to Rotom-W, while Hidden Power Fire hits Pokemon such as Scizor and Ferrothorn, which are 4x weak to Fire-type attacks. Blizzard is a stronger Ice-type attack and can be used to make Greninja a non-Trick Room hail attacker. Extrasensory hits Mega Venusaur, which is a common switch-in to Greninja, super effectively. Greninja can also use some physical moves; if it Greninja is running any of them, its nature should be changed to to Naive and the 4 Special Defense EVs should be moved to Attack. Rock Slide lets Greninja OHKO standard Mega Charizard Y , while Low Kick can be used to hit Kyurem-B and Tyranitar harder. Gunk Shot can be used to hit Fairy-types such as Sylveon and Togekiss harder. Mat Block is not a viable option on Greninja, as it is extremely predictable and useless after turn 1. Greninja also already has major four-moveslot syndrome.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**: Keep in mind that Greninja's checks and counters vary with what moves it uses. The safest picks for checks are faster Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Genesect, Choice Scarf Landorus-T, and Shaymin-S, as they outrun Greninja and can OHKO it if it has not changed types yet. Conkeldurr can tank any attack except the rare Extrasensory and deal massive damage with Mach Punch if Greninja still has a type weak to Fighting. Breloom can do the same with a stronger Mach Punch, but it cannot switch into Ice Beam. The standard Greninja set is easily walled by Pokemon such as Keldeo and Azumarill, which can force it out with Secret Sword and Play Rough, respectively. Those two moves are also super effective against Greninja if it did not change its typing yet. Generally, Pokemon that are unaffected by Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse are good picks for defensive switch-ins.

**Speed Control**: Greninja depends greatly on its high Speed. Once Greninja's Speed is made less, it's a sitting duck because of its subpar bulk. Trick Room beats Greninja quite easily, as it only 2HKOes Aromatisse with Hydro Pump and 3HKOes Cresselia with Dark Pulse, both of which are common Trick Room user. Thundurus is another major problem, as its priority Thunder Wave can shut down Greninja's Speed.

**Speed**: Common priority moves, such as Mach Punch and Talonflame's Brave Bird, threaten Greninja due to its frailty, especially if it has not yet switched types. It is also greatly threatened by faster threats, such as Shaymin-S, Mega Manectric, and Deoxys-A.
 
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Arcticblast

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Greninja is one of those Pokemon that's difficult to really make an analysis for in Doubles because there's no proper "standard" set and there shouldn't be - Greninja's utility in Doubles comes entirely and only from its movepool. Its niche is being able to hit specific Pokemon for major damage that your team has trouble with. Most Doubles teams carry several Pokemon that can take out things that you'd want Greninja to kill anyway.

also Low Kick really only hits Mega Kangaskhan harder than anything else in the metagame (and I suppose Kyu-B and the barely relevant Tyranitar but those have several weaknesses), but if your Mega Kangaskhan check is Low Kick Greninja than I think you have bigger problems than just a team weak to Mega Kangaskan
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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Greninja is one of those Pokemon that's difficult to really make an analysis for in Doubles because there's no proper "standard" set and there shouldn't be - Greninja's utility in Doubles comes entirely and only from its movepool. Its niche is being able to hit specific Pokemon for major damage that your team has trouble with. Most Doubles teams carry several Pokemon that can take out things that you'd want Greninja to kill anyway.

also Low Kick really only hits Mega Kangaskhan harder than anything else in the metagame (and I suppose Kyu-B and the barely relevant Tyranitar but those have several weaknesses), but if your Mega Kangaskhan check is Low Kick Greninja than I think you have bigger problems than just a team weak to Mega Kangaskan
lol yeah i agree with that and i was very hesitant to make an analysis for Greninja in the first place due to it being pretty bad in doubles lol but i saw that since it was pretty high on the list i'll give it a shot. i'll add something about it being super outclassed though thanks!
 
Whenever I see Greninja (which isn't often) it's alongside Abomasnow, as a fast blizzard spammer. Might be worth a mention, as it's the only real niche Greninja has over other similar fast and frail attackers, imo.
 

SpaceBass

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I'm not QC so nothing I say is mandatory.

I think you should do 2 sets, if not just the special one. Physical Greninja is (was lol) more of an OU thing. Special is alot more effective in doubles, with the exception being a 4 atk LO rock slide killing Zard Y, and low kick killing Tyranitar. Arctic mentioned that you shouldn't be using Greninja to check Kang and I agree. If Ninja is already on the field and doesn't currently have either fighting or dark type active, sucker will move before protean activates and KO.

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 193-228 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Factor in a fake out and ninjas ded regardless of type.

Blizzard should be included in other options as it makes a great out of trick room hail attacker. Depending on the team, you can run full SpA and 4 Atk with a life orb, while still outspeeding and KOing Zard Y and Tyranitar with Rock Slide or Low Kick respectively. Beating both main weather setters is important in weather wars.

2HKOing Jirachi is iffy as it will probably try and paralyse something as fast Greninja while the partner it is protecting, protects.

Although **Offensive/defensive type advantage** isn't as relevant due to Protean, Timid Skymin will outspeed and seed flare you to the face before you swap type, and you should still include some things that give the set you posted issues.

You should also mention that Greninja doesn't have to carry and Water or Dark STAB. Protean allows it to fill any type on a team as once it's out, barring speed control it should move first and adjust its type. As well as this, put in the overview that its incredibly versatile, and if you're creative enough with the coverage you use for your team, you can catch people off guard (Alot of the reason its gone from OU)

>Very niche; outclassed by many other Pokemon and can only hit specific Pokemon for major damage

This is fine, but I also think you should mention the fact that although it is limited by the coverage it chooses, its gets to pick what threats it can handle. I think being able to look at your team and fill weakness' using the same mon and different move combos is important.
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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Thanks a bunch for the inputs, I've made the changes. Is there anything else that should be changed?
 

SpaceBass

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I'm not QC so again, anything I say is just opinion, but I think this set would be better of have on the doubles analysis page as physical is too niche and affected by intimidate / burns etc;

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Protect

Poison isn't a great offensive type in doubles, and dark is less valuable than water imo. The problem with having a solid set is that ninja fits quite a few roles depending on what you want it to do, so there will naturally be alot of slashes when it comes to moveset, and a mention that other moves may fit your team better is a must.

A set I'd like to see in the other options is;

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Rock Slide / Low Kick
- Protect

This is the hail attacking set, which has great power with STAB Blizzards and LO. Abomasnow itself doesn't fit everywhere so this is definitely best left in OO as opposed to having its own set. Rock Slide and Low Kick depend on which weather setter you need dead.

Also while I remember, the mention of the focus sash should probably be in other options, not set details.

Again, not QC and I'd wait for one of them to approve what I said first when it comes to which main set to post, but I feel the special set is definitely its best option in doubles.
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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I'm not QC so again, anything I say is just opinion, but I think this set would be better of have on the doubles analysis page as physical is too niche and affected by intimidate / burns etc;

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Protect

Poison isn't a great offensive type in doubles, and dark is less valuable than water imo. The problem with having a solid set is that ninja fits quite a few roles depending on what you want it to do, so there will naturally be alot of slashes when it comes to moveset, and a mention that other moves may fit your team better is a must.

A set I'd like to see in the other options is;

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Rock Slide / Low Kick
- Protect

This is the hail attacking set, which has great power with STAB Blizzards and LO. Abomasnow itself doesn't fit everywhere so this is definitely best left in OO as opposed to having its own set. Rock Slide and Low Kick depend on which weather setter you need dead.

Also while I remember, the mention of the focus sash should probably be in other options, not set details.

Again, not QC and I'd wait for one of them to approve what I said first when it comes to which main set to post, but I feel the special set is definitely its best option in doubes.
Yeah i agree with the first set but i'll wait till approval before i change it. Thanks for the input!
 
For the sake of consistency, i'd go with SpaceBass's first set for now, as most people use Hydro Pump because of it's high base power and Ice Beam for it's coverage. Blizzard can go on set details or oo or wherever cause it's good on hail teams. The third slot can really be whatever tf the team wants, so maybe just have Dark Pulse in the set and mention extrasensory / hp fire / Gunk shot / rock slide / mat block in moves and reallllly specify in moves and the overview that it can really use whatever it wants.
 

Bughouse

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yeah hydro/ice/dark is best 3 moves in general tho obviously it has tons of options

like, if you're using something fast and it can't hit Mega Metagross and Mega Diancie, idk why you're using it. That's Hydro and Dark Pulse. Ice Beam then bc you need a way to hit Amoonguss, also good for Hydreigon and a few other things.
 

SpaceBass

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Also don't forget to mention scarf lando t in checks and counters, scarf superpower kills and U turn takes a chunk out.
 

SpaceBass

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Thing I noticed on a glance, any mention of moves that aren't on the main set, should be in Other Options.

Also Gengar isn't the best partner to mention as a taunt user, Thundurus-I would be a better mention, as Prankster makes sure the taunt works, and it can also Thunder Wave things like Skymin that would normally beat it. It also can Thunderbolt bulky waters that Greninja can't hit hard enough.

Add a **Defensive type advantage** tab to checks and counters, as with the set going up, you are walled by Keldeo and Azumarill (and also other Greninja that haven't changed types). Add an **Offensive type advantage** tab, and mention maybe Genesect, which is scarfed alot of the time, and will U-turn and kill. Skymin also belongs in this tab imo. Conkeldurr should be in either offensive type advantage or speed control because;

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Genesect and Skymin can also fit into the **Speed** tab, but as long as they're both mentioned which one isn't too important.

Also maybe list a few Trick Room setters when you mention Room. Cresselia should be in there because;

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Cresselia: 182-218 (40.9 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Aromatisse is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump and can't be taunted, so is in danger of getting it set up too.
 
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SpaceBass

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Am check, sorry for double post

Overview:
  • Mention it can outspeed both Mega Metagross and Mega Diancie in the overview, arguably the 2 best megas at the moment. It can OHKO Diancie and has a 25% chance to OHKO standard Mega Meta.
Moves:
  • Move any mention of moves not on the main set into OO, as the moves section is for explaining the set
Usage tips:
  • Can also work early game imo, as if Fake Out isn't present it puts alot of offensive pressure out to start a game
Team options:
  • Strong Electric types like Thundurus-T and Zapdos can deal with Water types. They also beat Azumarill and Keldeo, which the standard set can't hit for neutral
Other options:
  • Don't even mention Mat Block lol its a waste of a moveslot
 
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Bughouse

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I've been using a Hail attacker for a little while now with Blizzard, Low Kick, Rock Slide, Protect and a Naive nature. It works very well. Essentially... not using any of the attacks on the set this analysis is recommending. And yet, I still think the moves put on the main set are the right moves as they're the most generally applicable and not-team specific. But the general stress throughout should be that Greninja's high speed and reliable STAB power from Protean make it pretty versatile. You've already mentioned this but I'm just reminding you here to keep that them going when it comes time to write it.

In general this looks good and I'm gonna 1/3 it to move this along. I think there are probably a few finer points to analysis structure that might need correcting, but that's probably best left to the master detail-oriented checker Darkmalice
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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Thanks for check, I made this when I was new to making analyses but I finished two since then so I have some experience now lol. I'll try to make it as high quality as possible.
 

Darkmalice

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I won't have time to finish this now, so I'll edit this check and tag you DaDude when I'm finished

Overview
-should be more on an emphasis on that you choose it to beat specific threats, and of its role as a sniper to beat specific threats (in addition to late game cleaning)
-mention fraility somewhere
-The set is just "standard" moves that most Greninja would run however it can run a multitude of sets to fit the needs of your team - should be moves of the set, not overview

I would change the move order. Hydro Pump 1st, Ice Beam 2nd, Dark Pulse 3rd, Protect last. Listed in order of importance. Hydro Pump is the most important because its your most powerful attack.

Moves
-describe moves in the order above
-mention Hydro Pump's power too and hence usually best option for damage dealing against opponents neutral to all your attacks. Accuracy can be a let down though.
-Ice Beam has great coverage and hits important Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Hydreigon. Don't mention Skymin as LO Greninja (most common item) fails
-I wouldn't mention that there isn't a standard set (that's debatable and I would actually disagree). I rather say that even though these are the most common moves for Greninja, they can be interchanged with anything mentioned in OO to better fit your team.

Set details
-With LO, mention a Pokemon as frail as Greninja doesn't care much about LO recoil
-Focus Sash also lets you take a hit from Pokemon faster than you who would otherwise OHKO you, such as Shaymin-S, enabling Greninja to carry out its sniper role and attack, potentially neting an OHKO (such as on the aforementioned Skymin). However, you will notice the loss in power from a LO. For example, LO Hydro Pump always OHKOes 180 HP Heatran, but Focus Sash will never OHKO.

Usage tips
-mention inability to switch in on attacks last - it's the least most important point
-Greninja works well as a late game sweeper also due to its Speed
-make a note of using its ability defensively - using an attack with the desire to change your type so that you have a resistance to a predicted incoming attack - for example after using Protect, can use Dark Pulse to make yourself Dark-type again and hence immune to Cress' Psychic. Be warned that Protean can also work against you e.g. using an attack to remove Greninja's Dark-type, exposing it to Sucker Punch.

Team options
-helping hand helps it picks up more OHKOes against bulky opponents, such as a guaranteed OHKO against Mega Metagross with Dark Pulse and Amoonguss with Ice Beam
-with speed control, mention TWave to slow down opposing foes instaed of speed control and then say that many Pokemon taht outrun Greninja can OHKO it.
----Do not just say speed control is helpful - that tells me little. Is Trick Room helpful? Anyways I'd just mention specific Pokemon as handy, as Greninja isn't just a slap-on Pokemon on teams dedicated to speed control (there are usually better picks). I rather focus on the speed control partners you've already mentioned - Togekiss, jirachi, thundurus and explain it in a bit more detail - you need even more detail for redirection, tell me why redirection is helpful
-focus more on which Pokemon benefit from Greninja. Greninja's works well at sniping Pokemon, so who benefits from the removal of those Pokemon.

OO
-Start off by saying that Greninja can use many moves depending on what suits its team best
-Remove Grass Knot and replace it with HP Grass. HP Grass deals the same damage against politoed and always OHKOes Mega Swampert, but is much more helpful against Rotom-W
-if using any physical move, use a Naive nature with 4 SpD moved to Atk, not just Rock Slide
-I'd actually mention Mat Block here to state why it's a bad option (predictable, useless outside 1st turn, already has 4MSS)

Checks and counters
  • **Speed**: Due to Greninja being so frail, standard Scarfers, such as Scarf Lando T who can OHKO with superpower and take a chunk off with a u-turn, as well as anything that can outrun Greninja will easily OHKO it
  • **Speed Control**: One of Greninja's only niches is its high speed combined with its ability to hit specific pokemon. Once you take that away, its a sitting duck since its so frail. Trick room also beats Greninja pretty hard since Greninja 2HKOs Aromatisse with Hydro Pump and 3HKOs Cresselia with Dark Pulse.
  • **Defensive Type Advantage**: With the "standard" Greninja set, it is easily walled by Pokemon like Keldeo and Azumarill
  • **Offensive Type Advantage**: Pokemon like Conkeldurr, with Mach Punch, and things like Scarfed Genesect and Skymin can outrun you and OHKO Greninja. Plus since its so frail, it usually cannot take a super effective hit
We're fusing offensive and deensive type advantage on all sets for continuity. Further more it needs to be explained in strong detail due to Protean and wide movepool. Start off with something like "Greninja's checks and counters vary with what moves it uses." The safest picks are faster Pokemon such as Scarf Genesect, Scarf Lando-T, and Skymin, who outrun and OHKO Greninja. Conkeldurr can tank any attack except the rare Extrasensory and deal major damage with Mach Punch provided Greninja still has a type weak to it. Can also mention Breloom as it hits even harder with Mach Punch, but it cannot switch into Ice Beam. Then mention Pokemon that can usually tank a hit and hit hard back, such as Azumarill, Sylveon and Keldeo; just mention what moves they have to watch out for. Mention that generally Pokemon that don't care about Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse and good picks for defensive switch-ins.

For your Speed tab, mention Pokemon that do not fall under type advantage (all of your examples do fall under type advantage)

Speed control, don't say that high speed is one of its only niches (Protean is hte main niche). just say Greninja depends on its high Speed. also put only before 2HKOs and 3HKOs. Makes it clear that the damage output is not high enough
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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I won't have time to finish this now, so I'll edit this check and tag you DaDude when I'm finished

Overview
-should be more on an emphasis on that you choose it to beat specific threats, and of its role as a sniper to beat specific threats (in addition to late game cleaning)
-mention fraility somewhere
-The set is just "standard" moves that most Greninja would run however it can run a multitude of sets to fit the needs of your team - should be moves of the set, not overview

I would change the move order. Hydro Pump 1st, Ice Beam 2nd, Dark Pulse 3rd, Protect last. Listed in order of importance. Hydro Pump is the most important because its your most powerful attack.

Moves
-describe moves in the order above
-mention Hydro Pump's power too and hence usually best option for damage dealing against opponents neutral to all your attacks. Accuracy can be a let down though.
-Ice Beam has great coverage and hits important Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Hydreigon. Don't mention Skymin as LO Greninja (most common item) fails
-I wouldn't mention that there isn't a standard set (that's debatable and I would actually disagree). I rather say that even though these are the most common moves for Greninja, they can be interchanged with anything mentioned in OO to better fit your team.

Set details
-With LO, mention a Pokemon as frail as Greninja doesn't care much about LO recoil
-Focus Sash also lets you take a hit from Pokemon faster than you who would otherwise OHKO you, such as Shaymin-S, enabling Greninja to carry out its sniper role and attack, potentially neting an OHKO (such as on the aforementioned Skymin). However, you will notice the loss in power from a LO. For example, LO Hydro Pump always OHKOes 180 HP Heatran, but Focus Sash will never OHKO.

Usage tips
-mention inability to switch in on attacks last - it's the least most important point
-Greninja works well as a late game sweeper also due to its Speed
-make a note of using its ability defensively - using an attack with the desire to change your type so that you have a resistance to a predicted incoming attack - for example after using Protect, can use Dark Pulse to make yourself Dark-type again and hence immune to Cress' Psychic. Be warned that Protean can also work against you e.g. using an attack to remove Greninja's Dark-type, exposing it to Sucker Punch.

Team options
-helping hand helps it picks up more OHKOes against bulky opponents, such as a guaranteed OHKO against Mega Metagross with Dark Pulse and Amoonguss with Ice Beam
-with speed control, mention TWave to slow down opposing foes instaed of speed control and then say that many Pokemon taht outrun Greninja can OHKO it.
----Do not just say speed control is helpful - that tells me little. Is Trick Room helpful? Anyways I'd just mention specific Pokemon as handy, as Greninja isn't just a slap-on Pokemon on teams dedicated to speed control (there are usually better picks). I rather focus on the speed control partners you've already mentioned - Togekiss, jirachi, thundurus and explain it in a bit more detail - you need even more detail for redirection, tell me why redirection is helpful
-focus more on which Pokemon benefit from Greninja. Greninja's works well at sniping Pokemon, so who benefits from the removal of those Pokemon.

OO
-Start off by saying that Greninja can use many moves depending on what suits its team best
-Remove Grass Knot and replace it with HP Grass. HP Grass deals the same damage against politoed and always OHKOes Mega Swampert, but is much more helpful against Rotom-W
-if using any physical move, use a Naive nature with 4 SpD moved to Atk, not just Rock Slide
-I'd actually mention Mat Block here to state why it's a bad option (predictable, useless outside 1st turn, already has 4MSS)

Checks and counters
  • **Speed**: Due to Greninja being so frail, standard Scarfers, such as Scarf Lando T who can OHKO with superpower and take a chunk off with a u-turn, as well as anything that can outrun Greninja will easily OHKO it
  • **Speed Control**: One of Greninja's only niches is its high speed combined with its ability to hit specific pokemon. Once you take that away, its a sitting duck since its so frail. Trick room also beats Greninja pretty hard since Greninja 2HKOs Aromatisse with Hydro Pump and 3HKOs Cresselia with Dark Pulse.
  • **Defensive Type Advantage**: With the "standard" Greninja set, it is easily walled by Pokemon like Keldeo and Azumarill
  • **Offensive Type Advantage**: Pokemon like Conkeldurr, with Mach Punch, and things like Scarfed Genesect and Skymin can outrun you and OHKO Greninja. Plus since its so frail, it usually cannot take a super effective hit
We're fusing offensive and deensive type advantage on all sets for continuity. Further more it needs to be explained in strong detail due to Protean and wide movepool. Start off with something like "Greninja's checks and counters vary with what moves it uses." The safest picks are faster Pokemon such as Scarf Genesect, Scarf Lando-T, and Skymin, who outrun and OHKO Greninja. Conkeldurr can tank any attack except the rare Extrasensory and deal major damage with Mach Punch provided Greninja still has a type weak to it. Can also mention Breloom as it hits even harder with Mach Punch, but it cannot switch into Ice Beam. Then mention Pokemon that can usually tank a hit and hit hard back, such as Azumarill, Sylveon and Keldeo; just mention what moves they have to watch out for. Mention that generally Pokemon that don't care about Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse and good picks for defensive switch-ins.

For your Speed tab, mention Pokemon that do not fall under type advantage (all of your examples do fall under type advantage)

Speed control, don't say that high speed is one of its only niches (Protean is hte main niche). just say Greninja depends on its high Speed. also put only before 2HKOs and 3HKOs. Makes it clear that the damage output is not high enough
Changed, also just making sure but does this count as a QC check?
 

Darkmalice

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Changed, also just making sure but does this count as a QC check?
It's only a check when the QC member types x/3 or something like that.


I would like a bit more emphasis on what Greninja offers the team in Team Options. You can use the Pokemon you've already mentioned.

Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir is benefited greatly by Greninja's ability to snipe certain Pokemon since Greninja removes threats such as Mega Metagross/Aegislash/Heatran while Garde offers protection against Venusaur/Fighting types
Could add Sylveon here, though it also struggles against Venusaur. You can discuss this when you mention Sylveon and Gard before.

In the cases of Thundurus, Talonflame, Thundurus-T, and Zapdos, Greninja checks Rock-types like Mega Diancie and Terrakion, the former being immune to Thundurus' Twave and the latter having Quick Guard to screw with both Thundurus and Talonflame.

With offensive pressure with mega kang, mention it can be used to force opportunities to set up Power-up Punch



Also add Mega Gyarados to counters - doesn't care about your main STABs, can set up against Greninja


Of note, I do plan to implement a check after I see the changes to Team Options DaAwesomeDude1 :)
 

DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Top Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
DPL Champion
It's only a check when the QC member types x/3 or something like that.


I would like a bit more emphasis on what Greninja offers the team in Team Options. You can use the Pokemon you've already mentioned.



Could add Sylveon here, though it also struggles against Venusaur. You can discuss this when you mention Sylveon and Gard before.

In the cases of Thundurus, Talonflame, Thundurus-T, and Zapdos, Greninja checks Rock-types like Mega Diancie and Terrakion, the former being immune to Thundurus' Twave and the latter having Quick Guard to screw with both Thundurus and Talonflame.

With offensive pressure with mega kang, mention it can be used to force opportunities to set up Power-up Punch



Also add Mega Gyarados to counters - doesn't care about your main STABs, can set up against Greninja


Of note, I do plan to implement a check after I see the changes to Team Options DaAwesomeDude1 :)
Changed n_n
 

Darkmalice

Level 3
is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
For Team Options, you've added on my points without integrating them with the rest of team options. Team Options is kinda all over the place with much repeat of info and little flow. You will see why when you look at my corrections below

additiosn in red, comments in blue, crossed out stuff.
  • Helping Hand support greatly benefits Greninja due to its meh attacking stats (Helping Hand allows you to OHKO Mega Meta with Dark Pulse and standard Amoonguss with Ice Beam), Pokemon like Jirachi or Togekiss works best as it gives Helping Hand support, Redirection (to mitigate Greninja's terrible bulk), and Speed Control to let Greninja outrun and threaten foes that would otherwise threaten Greninja such as Skymin
  • (moving stuff here) discussing speed control together Thundurus is another great partner for Greninja allowing you to Taunt speed control users as well as having access to Thunder Wave as well. also provides speed control with Thunder Wave and can Taunt opposing speed users. It, along with other Electric-types such as Zapdos and Thundurus-T, can check Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and Keldeo who wall Greninja's standard set (Thundurus-T requires a Choice Scarf as it cannot tank a Hydro Pump). Greninja, in turn, helps them out by checking Rock-types like Mega Diancie and Terrakion, the former being immune to Thunder Wave while the latter has access to Quick Guard. integrated the Electric-types here to include Thundurus-I
  • Strong Electric types like Thundurus-T and Zapdos are both great options since they check Azumarill and Mega Gyaradosand standard Greninja, which the standard set can't hit for neutral similarly to Heatran vs Heatran, don't need Greninja vs Greninja while Greninja can check Rock-types, such as Mega Diancie, (repeat info) that threaten Thundurus-T and Zapdos
  • Heatran and Sylveon/Gardevoir are both great partners for Greninja as well, the former letting you check Talonflame, who is quite a big problem for Greninja, while the latter checking Fighting types like Conkeldurr and also Mega Venasuar in the case of Mega Gard. They also benefit from Greninja removing threats to themsuch as Mega Metagross/Aegislash/Heatran while Garde offers protection against Venusaur/Fighting types. Sylveon, however, struggles against Mega Venusaur.Both of them also offer powerful spread STAB moves which helps by weakening both your opponent's pokemon which lets you break through finish off weakened opponents (more precise with its description) with Greninja. In Heatran's case, Greninja can check opposing Heatrans which allows you to Heat Wave without worry. This is already long team options, let's not dwell into Heatran vs Heatran. I am also removing Heatran because its STAB doesn't deal too much damage to add with cleaning up and it's too slow at checking Talonflame for Greninja (you want Talonflame removed ASAP for Greninja)
  • Talonflame is another really nice partner as well since it checks bulky grass types like Venusaur and Amoonguss while Greninja checks Rock-types that threaten Talonflame such as Diancie and Terrakion (who has access to threatens Talonflame with Quick Guard). need to explain why Quick Guard is an issue
  • Thunder Wave/Tailwind will benefit Greninja too since it can slow down opposing Pokemon in the case of T Wave or boost Greninja's speed for the latter's case. This is just stating what those moves do. This is not a Pokedex
  • (moved) speed control and electric-types to above
  • (moved) Mega gard and Sylveon to above, in a similar vein to Electric-types
  • (mention last) (as no type synergy) Mega Kangakhan is also a fantastic partner as it provides a lot of offensive pressure in conjunction with Greninja. Greninja's ability to hit Pokemon like Aegislash benefits Kang greatly. Greninja can also be used to force opportunities to set up Power-Up Punch by sniping certain Pokemon.
  • Mega Venusaur is another great partner for Greninja since it checks bulky Water-types that Greninja has trouble breaking through. Greninja can check Flying/Psychic-types which benefits Venusaur greatly
  • Terrakion and Breloom are also great partners as well since Greninja is able to check Aegislash (which walls both of their STABs) as well as opposing Flying types in the case of Breloom. With Ice Beam/Hydro, Greninja is also able to check Landorus-T who threatens both those Pokemon. In return they check Ferrothorn, Talonflame (in the case of Terrakion with Quick Guard) and Water-types that wall Greninja's standard moveset in the case of Breloom. Greninja doesn't check Lando-T (commonly holds a Scarf, outspeeds and U-turns for super-effective hit or OHKOes with Superpower)

This is very difficult to read with all the corrections, so I included how it should be written below - we would be doing this forever without it.

  • Helping Hand support greatly benefits Greninja due to its meh attacking stats (Helping Hand allows you to OHKO Mega Meta with Dark Pulse and standard Amoonguss with Ice Beam), Pokemon like Jirachi or Togekiss works best as it gives Helping Hand support, Redirection (to mitigate Greninja's terrible bulk), and Speed Control to let Greninja outrun and threaten foes that would otherwise threaten Greninja such as Shaymin-S.
  • Thundurus also provides speed control with Thunder Wave and can Taunt opposing speed users. It, along with other Electric-types such as Zapdos and Thundurus-T, can check Water-types that wall Greninja's standard set such as Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and Keldeo (Thundurus-T requires a Choice Scarf for Keldeo, as it cannot tank a Hydro Pump). Greninja, in turn, helps them out by checking Rock-types like Mega Diancie and Terrakion.
  • Sylveon/Gardevoir are both great partners for Greninja, checking Fighting types like Conkeldurr and also Mega Venasuar in the case of Mega Gard. They also benefit from Greninja removing threats to them such as Mega Metagross, Aegislash, and Heatran, Both of them also offer powerful spread STAB moves which helps by weakening both your opponent's pokemon which lets you finish off weakened opponents with Greninja.
  • Talonflame is another really nice partner since it checks bulky grass types like Venusaur and Amoonguss while Greninja checks Rock-types that threaten Talonflame.
  • Mega Venusaur is another great partner for Greninja since it checks bulky Water-types that Greninja has trouble breaking through. Greninja can check Flying-types, Psychic-types, and Heatran which benefits Venusaur greatly.
  • Terrakion and Breloom are also great partners as well since Greninja is able to check Aegislash (which walls both of their STABs) and opposing Flying types in the case of Breloom. In return they check Ferrothorn, Talonflame (in the case of Terrakion with Quick Guard) and Water-types that wall Greninja's standard moveset in the case of Breloom.
  • Mega Kangakhan is also a fantastic partner as it provides a lot of offensive pressure in conjunction with Greninja. Greninja's ability to hit Pokemon like Aegislash benefits Kang greatly. Greninja can also be used to force opportunities to set up Power-Up Punch by sniping certain Pokemon.

This is shorter yet explains more than what you had and flows better. It also has a few additions whilst removing some iffy points e.g. Greninja checking Lando-T

I request the next QC member to check this to look carefully at how the Team Options is written. I resorted to doing a lot of stuff that would be done in the 3rd check with Team Options.

QC 2/3
 

DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Top Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
DPL Champion
For Team Options, you've added on my points without integrating them with the rest of team options. Team Options is kinda all over the place with much repeat of info and little flow. You will see why when you look at my corrections below

additiosn in red, comments in blue, crossed out stuff.


This is very difficult to read with all the corrections, so I included how it should be written below - we would be doing this forever without it.

This is shorter yet explains more than what you had and flows better. It also has a few additions whilst removing some iffy points e.g. Greninja checking Lando-T

I request the next QC member to check this to look carefully at how the Team Options is written. I resorted to doing a lot of stuff that would be done in the 3rd check with Team Options.

QC 2/3
Thanks, I realized that it didn't flow together and was going to try and fix it whenever I'm writing it up. I guess it'll be easier if I fix it now lol
 

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