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Gyarados (Ubers analysis) QC (1/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by polop, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. polop

    polop
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    Jibaku EDIT: QC Approved: 3/3
    [pimg]130[/pimg]
    Gyarados
    QC approvals: 1/3 (trickroom, syrim, hugendugen (see VM), , )
    QC rejections:
    GP:
    [Overview]

    • Access to STRONGEST WATERFALL IN THE GAME !!!
    • It has the rare Taunt
    • Intimidate + Moxie = Great Ability choices, Intimidate lets it take physical hits better then Lugia, Moxie lets it become even scarier after a kill.
    • 4* weakness to Electric-type moves
    • Can't switch into STAB Draco Meteors, but its got OK bulk.
    • All-in-all Gyarados's unique attributes let it harass stall quite easily X_X, just make sure to defend it from Thunder.


    [SET]
    Name : Tauntrados / Stall Breaker
    Move 1: Dragon Tail
    Move 2: Waterfall / Earthquake
    Move 3: Taunt
    Move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    Nature : Impish
    evs : 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 Spe
    ability: Intimidate

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Set abuses Gyarados ability to harass stall teams
    • Taunt is crux of set, gives Gyarados ability to stop enemy team from recovering HP, and prevents the guy from getting phazed / statused.
    • Waterfall is strong STAB, but is weather dependent. Earthquake lets you hit Steels immune to Toxic and isn't reliant on weather.
    • Dragon Tail lets you phaze stuff and rack up residual damage.
    • Toxic cripples walls even more, Taunt + Toxic -> can't heal from residual damage.


    [Additional Comments]

    • GROUND-TYPE / ELECTRIC RESIST ;_;, stuff that appreciates the death / crippling of Lugia / GIratina
    • You can throw sub on there and suddenly your impossible to phaze, but other moves are perferred.
    • Example = SD Ground Arceus, annoyed by Lugia and Tina-a no longer after residual damage.
    • Has physical bulk (calcs go here)
      Show Hide
      -1 Atk RP Groudon Stone Edge 52.4% - 62.1%
      -1 Atk Support Groudon Stone Edge 31.6% - 37.2%
      -1 Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird 42.7% - 50.4%
      -1 Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird 32.8% - 38.9%
      -1 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire in the sun 20.4% - 23.9%
      -1 Atk Rayquaza Outrage 43% - 50.6%
      +0 DD Rayquaza Outrage 64.9% - 76.3%
      Mixed Rayquaza Draco Meteor 84.2% - 99.2%
      +1 Silk Scarf Arceus ExtremeSpeed 55.7% - 65.6%'
    • Wish support is nice. Chansey and Rachi can tank thunders and pass wishes
    • Dragon Tail = needs hazards.
    • SR weakness -> Rapid Spin is cool too. Exca in particular due to elec immune
    • Ferrothorn mention as it absorbs Thunders like a boss and can setup spikes.
    • Spin Blocker support is nice too, although it does loads of damage to spinners, blockers are appreciated since kabutops and Excadrill might outspeed and Forry can tank a rain-boosted Waterfall.
    [SET]
    Name : Wall Breaker / Choice Band
    Move 1: Earthquake
    Move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    Move 3: Outrage
    Move 4: Stone Edge / Double Edge
    item: Choice Band
    Nature : Adamant
    evs : 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe

    ability: Intimidate / Moxie

    [Set Comments]

    • Strongest Waterfall in the game, and ironically the perfect moves to break walls that try switching into it...
    • Intimidate gives it enough physical bulk so that it can repeatedly switch in without too much of a problem
    • Waterfall is strong, accurate, and has a handy flinch chance. Aqua Tail is less accurate and doesn't have the flinch chance but the power difference is notable.
    • Outrage lets you destroy the Giratinas / dragons, provides good coverage too.
    • Last move is a way to hit Water-types without locking self into Outrage. Stone Edge complements EQ so that you get edge quake coverage and it gives no recoil but its inaccurate. Double Edge does the same with more power but gives recoil. Return as an option but then y u no Stone Edge?
    [Additional Comments]

    • Strong, powerful, but slow, like team mates that can clean up after Gyarados has made holes in teams
    • Kyogre for max power waterfall, but SOMETHING TO GET RID OF SUN, it works on sand but JUST DON'T USE IT WITH GROUDON X_X
    • Something to get rid of Groudon as it weakens Waterfall.
    • Example = Mixed Dancer Rayquaza
    • Super strong calcs
      Show Hide

      Waterfall vs 252/176+ Lugia 47.6% - 56.3%
      Waterfall vs 252/4 Kyogre 41.8% - 49.5%
      Waterfall vs 4 HP Kyogre 50% - 58.8%
      Waterfall vs 248 HP Ho-Oh in the sun 55.4% - 65.5%
      Waterfall vs 252/252+ Groudon 29.7% - 35.6%
      Waterfall vs 112/8 Groudon 42.3% - 50.4%
      Waterfall in rain vs 4 HP Mewtwo 96.9% - 114.2%
      Outrage vs 112 HP Latias 138.6% - 163.5%
      Outrage vs Mixed Attacker Giratina-O 94.8% - 112%
      Outrage v Giratina 52.9% - 62.4%
    • Appreciates Tailwind if you can support it with that.
    • Everything in 1st AC ;_;
    • Unlike Kabutops can tank hits
    [Other Options]

    • Dragon Dance, but why aren't you using Salamence? Oh STAB on Waterfall and Moxie? Well its a little slow for DD...
    • Triple status dos (status support)
    • Muscular carp (support)
    [Checks and Counters]

    • Groudon removes sun and can hit it with stone edge, beware though as it can get Toxiced + Dragon Tailed out in the process
    • Grass Arceus is not 2HKOed by any more that Gyarados has and can spam Judgements, doesn't like Toxic though.
    • Choice Scarf mons can Revenge it with Thunder
    • SR limits switches
    • Lack of recovery means the above stacks up.
    • Really just focus on revenging it, walling it is hard due to Toxic + Taunt and the fact it breaks through everything else with the CB set.
  2. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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  3. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I'm assuming that you meant Max Attack on the Choice Band set, not maximum defense.

    I'm not an experienced Ubers player, but I know that Gyarados has been rejected in the past, is ranked E on the Ubers Viability Thread (which is considered to be where you are straight up unviable), its slower than almost everything in Ubers with the exception of Blaziken thanks to its rather dissapointing base 81 speed, its Dragon Tail legitmately doesn't break any substitutes, its easily taken out by Thunder (a move you will see on almost every Rain team, where Gyarados functions best, and weatherless team). It still gets 2HKOed by boosted Arceus and Rayquaza as well, which can be a problem. All it can do is just phaze it out, and personally I find Lugia to be superior mainly due to its bulk and access to Whirlwind, and its ability to take a special hit with impunity, despite not having Intimidate. For a Pokemon that is supposed to act defensively having a 4x weakness to one of the most common moves in Ubers is extremely bad. The absolute inability to deal with Ferrothorn (ie getting worn down by it pretty easily) is also a huge problem considering that it is pretty common on stall I'm pretty sure.

    From an offensive perspecive, it seems outclassed by the much faster, Swords Dance weilding, Extreemespeed resisting, Ferrothorn beating Kabutops which has a dual STAB. Even then, CB Gyarados is weather dependent and I see very little reason to use it over Rayquaza, Zekrom, or other harder hitters which hit harder than even Rain Boosted Gyarados. Morseo, I don't see how it is any more viable now when compared to BW1 when it got rejected. It seems like an ok Ho-oh check, but even then Ho-oh stalls it out in the Sun or if Gyarados is burned, Kyurem-W, Genesect, Kyurem-B, and the occasional Thundurus-T are new Pokemon that just straight up OHKO it and outspeed it, and Tornadus-T likes to Taunt or Hurricane it for a lot of issues.

    I just don't think it is viable.
  4. Tobes

    Tobes 「Cheezum」「Cripes」
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    gdi trickroom
  5. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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    this guy can't even break stall

    groudon and kyogre both beat it with scald or stone edge (assuming it switches in on it.. maybe even vice versa)

    trickroom is just using gyarados because arceus sucks (y/n)
  6. polop

    polop
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    Taunt and power is what makes the difference between Gyarados and Lugia. Lugia can't really do anything but phaze, and it can't stop its opponents from healing / resting. Taunt allows Gyarados to stop Ferrothorn / every support mon from setting up on it. STAB Waterfall in the rain is enough to break substitutes, an issues that Dragon Tail Lugia lacks. Yes it has Whirlwind but Gyarados has Roar too. I just don't see why would use it when you have a move for breaking substitutes in Waterfall. I can add that in OO I guess though. Ferrothorn can't touch Gyarados, Intimidated Power Whips aren't threatening at all seeing as it that will be the only move it can use after its Taunted (should the even have it, its other move, Gyro Ball, does nothing). It'll get worn out if sufficent hazard support can be provided. Ferrothorn is a problem Lugia has, not one that Gyarados has.

    All mentioned except Kabutops lack a STAB that can be boosted by rain. Kabutops lacks intimidate meaning it can't switch in nearly as easily as Gyarados. It also lacks Outrage meaning that it cannot 2HKO Giratina as it switches in.

    Keep in mind, CB Dragons rely primarily on Outrage, Waterfall does not lock the user in. Ironically the counter to the CB set, Grass Arceus, is annoyed by Taunt Gyarados seeing as it will get Toxiced and phazed out.

    Both risk getting Toxiced. Rest talk ogre cannot Rest after Taunt. Before I forget TR gets credit for coming up with sets. Its been used successfully before. See Hugen's performance in the uber tour he trolled with Gyarados and Ninjask for more details.
  7. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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