Hariyama (OU Anti-lead)

[RaikouLover]

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/hariyama

So basically, this set is beast and pretty self explanitory.. I havent found a lead it doesn't beat really. It used to be on site for OU I don't know why it was deleted.

[SET]
name: OU Anti-lead
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Payback
move 4: Ice Punch / Stone Edge
item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 164 SpD / 92 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Hariyama has the bulk, attack power, and movepool to defeat most leads in OU. Fake Out is the most important move, and should always be used first except in cases when Hariyma has a clear advantage (as in the case with Tyranitar). Fake Out's importance cannot be undervalued because it always moves first and breaks the sash of frailer leads such as Azelf and Aerodactyl. It also protects Hariyama from sleep inducing leads such as Smeargle and Roserade and allows the Orb to activate Guts. From there, the set becomes elementary; Close Combat for a brutal STAB attack, Payback for Psychic or neutral faster pokemon when defense drops are undesirable, and Ice Punch for additional coverage. Stone Edge can be used over Ice Punch to prevent Gyarados from switching in and setting up easily, although you will lose the ability to OHKO Gliscor. A fake out followed by a Payback is still more than enough to handle Roserade, so no harm is done there. For slower leads such as Swampert and Hippowdon, it is still best to Fake Out to activate Guts. From there Close Combat becomes a 2HKO, which can really pressure your opponent if they opt to Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>The EVs are tailored to be able to defeat most leads. The Special Defense investment guarentees that Hariyama will always survive a Psychic from Azelf, even through the first turn of poison damage if Toxic Orb is attached. The 92 Speed Evs are allow Hariyama to outspeed minimum speed Tyranitar and any lead Machamp it may encounter.</p>

<p>The choice between Flame Orb and Toxic Orb largely depend on the user's style of play and Hariyama's role on the team. Flame Orb is a better choice if Hariyama is to be played out until he bites the dust because it will consistently subtract 12.5% from Hariyama's HP. Toxic Orb is a better item through the first 3 turns of use (2 after it has already been activated) as the damage will mount over time, making it better to abuse Fake Out's hit and run utility. In the first 2 turns after activation, Hariyama will lose18.75% of his health with a Toxic Orb and 25% with a Flame Orb.</p>

 

[kd24]

you have to mention machamp and why you would use something like this over. not having thick fat hurts because of lo tran so i'm just not sold on it yet. hopefully some comments could explain it.

 

[Itchni]

An anti-leads job is to stop the rocks, which hariyama does not do. Machamp also does a better job than hariyama, having more attack and 100% accurate dynamic punch. breaking a sash does nothing if they can still get their rocks off.

Infernape does a better job at using fake out. He is faster than hariyama and has access to stealth rock, while not losing out on too much power, while also being able to go mixed.

A slightly different set is on the official site BTW.

I am sure that the set works, but it is highly outclassed by both infernape and Machamp. At most this should be under the Other options while mentioning that machamp and infernape outclass it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I love Hariyama to death, but it's outclassed as a Fake Out lead by Ape and outclassed as a slow Fighting lead by Machamp. I've gotta say no to anything other than an OC mention in the UU analysis.

 

[RaikouLover]

Do I have to post logs? This thing beats damn near every lead you will ever see in OU pretty handily.

you have to mention machamp and why you would use something like this over. not having thick fat hurts because of lo tran so i'm just not sold on it yet. hopefully some comments could explain it.

LO Tran cannot OHKO this set and you OHKO with Hariyama so I dont know how this is relevant. This set is bulkier than Machamp actually. Hariyama IS bulkier than machamp especially when you invest in defenses like this is.

Machamp also does a better job than hariyama, having more attack and 100% accurate dynamic punch. breaking a sash does nothing if they can still get their rocks off.

This is an arbitrary, unsubstantiated statement. And in both cases with Machamp and Hariyama they either get rocks off, or die.. so I don't get the point?

I am sure that the set works, but it is highly outclassed by both infernape and Machamp. At most this should be under the Other options while mentioning that machamp and infernape outclass it.

There is no proof of this other than you saying "this is highly outclassed by Infernape and Machamp."

Infernape loses to Azelf and Aerodactyl. Hariyama doesnt. Machamp can be argued. Dynamicpunch is annoying, but doesnt have the sheer power of a Guts Close Combat. Ohh, and this set beats Machamp easily as well.

 

[Towelie]

I think the fact that this set is bulky AND beats Machamp easily gives it its own set. This set is more of a surprise as well because Machamp is everywhere these days.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I don't get why people are dismissing this? This is not comparable to Infernape at all, since it can actually survive things and serve as a status absorber later on. It is not, in other words, really a suicide lead. It also beats every lead that Infernape beats except Metagross (and Ape doesn't even beat Occa variants), in exchange for which it beats Starmie and Swampert (leadape does not carry grass knot) way easier. I definitely think it's viable.

Just one thing I'd like you to mention though: this lead loses to Metagross. Metagross gets up rocks and then outruns and KOs you with Meteor Mash (taking CC's defense drop and Toxic damage into account) while taking no more than 80% from Fake Out -> +1 CC.

Besides that I think this is a solid set, and I've used it myself to some success.

 

[kd24]

Smogon Damage Calculator says that Timid LO Overheat Tran is guaranteed to OHKO so I don't know why you said that. I never have used this calculator before but it guarantees to OHKO from what I see. I'd also like to say you don't get up rocks why is why Nape is a better Fake Out Lead, and that Machamp can throw around confusion which is why it usually is preferred.

 

[ARandomDude]

I think one of the key things to address is what Hariyama has over Machamp's 100% accurate Dynamic Punch (read: confusion hax) as well as 100% accuarate Stone Edge.

 

[Conflict]

Smogon Damage Calculator says that Timid LO Overheat Tran is guaranteed to OHKO so I don't know why you said that. I never have used this calculator before but it guarantees to OHKO from what I see.

Timid LO Overheat vs. Hariyama: 83.2% - 97.9%

Thats no way an OHKO, so you can prevent Rocks or you are up 6-5 with this Hariyama-Lead against Heatran....

Mention that this Hariyama loses against Fake Out Infernape leads please. (Infernape can FO, then lay down SR and lastly hit you with a strong attack after you sufferred some Orb damage.)

 

[RaikouLover]

Just one thing I'd like you to mention though: this lead loses to Metagross. Metagross gets up rocks and then outruns and KOs you with Meteor Mash (taking CC's defense drop and Toxic damage into account) while taking no more than 80% from Fake Out -> +1 CC.

Perhaps in the write up I'll mention that Payback + Close Combat has a shot at beating Metagross. If you want to be crafty, you can Fake out to activate your Orb, Payback on the Stealth Rock, than KO with Close Combat.

Mention that this Hariyama loses against Fake Out Infernape leads please. (Infernape can FO, then lay down SR and lastly hit you with a strong attack after you sufferred some Orb damage.)

It doesn't, Payback when it lays rocks.. then nothing it has will even come close to KOing you (don't CC it and lower your defensies and activate Blaze thats just stupid). Then you kill with Close Combat.

I seriously haven't found a lead that beats this Hariyama. Perhaps it takes too much thought to use (don't spam Close Combat when you don't need to!!!)

 

[Towelie]

Ya this lead may be difficult to use (rather than with machamp; use dynamic punch!) but it reliably beats so much shit. onto the heatran statement, who uses LO lead tran? and better yet, the only commonly used heatran with overheat is specs...

 

[DarkSlay]

Hey there! What an interesting set. I just want to go over what this thing can do against other Leads, just as a reference point. I'm assuming Top 15 Leads of OU here.

• Azelf: Win. See: Machamp. They win practically the same way (Priority to Payback as comapred to Payback to Priority).
• Aerodactyl: See: Azelf.
• Swampert: Tie. Fake Out + +1 CC does not 2HKO. If you decide to CC first turn, Swampert could EQ and do roughly 70% damage after the drop. With the Flame Orb/Toxic Orb, that's practically a draw. You do prevent SR this way (although Swampert is also guaranteed SR with these calcs). Machamp, however unreliable, does present a way to prevent SR here, something Hariyama cannot do.
• Metagross: Lose. This has already been discussed.
• Machamp: Win. Fake Out + +1 CC. Then again, this isn't that big of a deal either, as beating an Anti-Lead with and Anti-Lead doesn't prevent anything, per se. But still, very nice.
• Jirachi: Lose. Darn that Flinchhax.
• Infernape: Tie/Lose. Here's where (I think) Machamp has a clear cut better advantage, although small as it is. You lose the Fake Out war. It is then guaranteed Stealth Rock AND one attack on you, thanks to Sash. With Orb damage factored in, that's going to hurt. Machamp, on the other hand, forces it to set up SR or attack only, thanks to priority.
• Ninjask: Is Ninjask. Although, with that said, Machamp does deal with BP recipients better with DPunch. No one likes confusion. This is small, though.
• Tyranitar: Win. See: Machamp.
• Heatran: Win/Loss. If Shuca, it's a win. If LO/Specs Overheat Anti-Lead, it's a loss. Same with Machamp.
• Roserade: Win. Same as Machamp.
• Hippowdon: Tie/Loss. Machamp does this better, IMO. Fake Out + Two +1 CC fails to 3HKO, which would have given Hariyama a slight advantage. Machamp can prevent Stealth Rock from Hippowdon while also beating it with its own Ice Punch/DPunch.
• Uxie: Tie/Loss. If TrickScarf, it can get up SR or lock you into one move while killing itself (practically), meaning it's a tie. If Screens, you lose. Not much different than Machamp.
• Smeargle: Win. FO + Status keeps you alive. Note that Machamp does this thanks to Lum and loses no damage in the process.
• Gliscor: Win. You have Ice Punch.

What does this tell us? This pretty much tells us that...well, Hariyama pretty much beats and loses to the same leads Lead Machamp does. Hariyama can safely beat Machamp leads always, while Machamp does a bit better against Swampert, Infernape, Hippowdon, and Smeagle (insignificant slight for Smeargle, though). So, in order to approve or disprove this set, we need to differentiate what Hariyama and Machamp do outside of killing the first Pokemon. That is, what's next after you KO the opposing lead? What about if a counter switches in? Here are the advantages/disadvantages outside of the lead position for each (that I can think of):

Machamp:
+ DynamicPunch. This is a huge positive, as only Ghosts will want to switch into this thing. Anything else (Salamence, Gyarados, and Skarmory, for example) will hate the confusion. Confusion is such a big key as to why Machamp excels as a lead AND as a team player. Being able to give counters a 50/50 chance of getting off an attack is HUGE. If you want more proof, just go to my Machoke C&C thread for a huge Machoke/Hariyama debate as to how confusion alters a lead. XD
+ Lum Berry. Before we are too quick to jump at "Guts Hariyama," let us not also forget how statusing oneself also results in the ruination of a Pokemon for the remainder of the match, either forcing Hariyama to switch out (Gyarados would love to set up on this opportunity) or have its life drained away by weak hits + Toxic/Burn. Machamp's Lum Berry prevents things like Rotom from Burning it for one turn, which is really all it needs to counter. Does a lead really need to prevent status twice to succeed?
+ Constant Priority. Bullet Punch is somewhat of a godsend in some situations, and having constant access to a priority move can sometimes make or break matches later on in play. It's not a huge positive, but it's still a positive.
- Lack of Power. Hariyama does have a greater Attack stat after the Burn/Poison. This cannot be ignored.
- EV Investment. Thanks to Hariyama's ridiculously high HP stat, it can afford to run extra Speed EV's to outrun certain threats Machamp can't without giving up some bulk.

Hariyama:
+ Guts and Status Prevention. Having an automatic Choice Band from the get-go is really a plus. One, the extra power boost is nice (although see my Final Questions section later). Two, the ability to boost your attack while also beating status leads is nice. The OP gives this quite the positive remarks, and for good reason.
+ Fake Out. Helps score some nice 2HKO's, and prevents Trick users from stopping the +1.5 boost. Also nice that is breaks Sashes immediately. This also prevents Guts Machamp from outclassing, due to preventing its item from getting stolen and such.
- Constant Damage. Although blocking status is nice...you still are afflicted with status. And you will constantly lose damage as a result of this. This enables Hariyama to be 2HKO'd and 3HKO'd much easier than Machamp, as both have similar bulk.
- Lack of a Good Fighting Move. Yes, Close Combat is powerful. But as a Lead, the -1 Def/SpD drops are killer. Taking 70% from Swampert's Earthquake? That certainly isn't good, and it causes it to die quickly.

So, now that we have this settled, there needs to be a few new questions to be asked.

1. Is the extra damage output worth the lack of DynamicPunch and its confusion? What can Hariyama hit harder outside of the Lead Pokemon that really is important enough to not only warrant its use, but warrant using Toxic and Flame Orb Guts? I would really like to see some calculations illustrating these kinds of important details, specifically with Close Combat and DynamicPunch. Also, make sure they're positive too. For instance, +1 CC may 2HKO Skarmory, but at -1 Def, Skarm can OHKO Hariyama with Brave Bird (Skarm outspeeds you). Switching results in it playing mindgames, either Roosting of the damage or setting up Spikes. Machamp just beats Skarm better, thanks to DynamicPunch's confusion rate. So, what are some examples where Hariyama does better.

2. Is the constant blocking of status at the cost of being Burned/Poisoned all game worth it? Shouldn't blocking one status be enough, ala Lum Berry? What exactly is the advantage here?

3. Looking at the lead Pokemon, is Hariyama worth considering over Machamp, even though some leads make each win or lose when compared to each other? Hariyama has Machamp. Machamp has Swampert, Infernape, Hippowdon, and (slightly) Smeargle. Who has the better match-ups?

 

[RaikouLover]

Swampert isn't really a tie since it ALWAYS SR's first. And many people would kill for 70% done immediately to Swampert... If Swampert attacks, it is 2HKOed by Close Combat (the Guts one will kill it). I personally Fake Out pert, then force him to attack or lay SR and eat 70% from CC

Heatran: Win/Loss. If Shuca, it's a win. If LO/Specs Overheat Anti-Lead, it's a loss. Same with Machamp.

Hariyama doesn't lose to LO Heatran. At all. This was calced above.

 

[DarkSlay]

Swampert isn't really a tie since it ALWAYS SR's first. And many people would kill for 70% done immediately to Swampert... If Swampert attacks, it is 2HKOed by Close Combat (the Guts one will kill it). I personally Fake Out pert, then force him to attack or lay SR and eat 70% from CC

If your opponent is to know what a Hariyama lead is, it seems foolish not to EQ first, knowing that you are not 2HKO'd by FO + CC and not OHKO'd by an unboosted CC. And I said Swampert does 70% to Hariyama with EQ after the -Def drop, not the other way around. Considering Toxic Orb, that's a guaranteed 88% done to Hariyama. And, if it SR's first, not only does it succeed in SR'ing, but it also forces Hariyama to switch out, lest it takes 36% damage from Toxic or Burn. since it would take 3 turns to KO it (assuming the chance it has Protect, although rare). These factors, to me, seem more of a draw than an outright win.

Hariyama doesn't lose to LO Heatran. At all. This was calced above.

Ah, perhaps I used Modest in my calc then. Still, the rare Specs Anti-Lead and Sash leads will give you trouble, but you are correct on the LO lead. Also remember that doing 80% damage to Hariyama is practically a kill in terms of Toxic/Burn damage and whatever the switch-in does. Plus, Machamp doesnt die to LO Overheat either.

 

[RaikouLover]

What? Scenario 1:

Hariyama used Fake Out.
Swampert Flinched! (Orb activates)
Hariyama used Close Combat! (Swampert loses 70%)
Swampert used Earthquake (Hariyama loses 70%)

Where is Stealth Rock again?


Hariyama used Fake Out.
Swampert Flinched! (Orb activates)
Hariyama used Close Combat! (Swampert loses 70%)
Swampert used Stealth Rock (Swampert at 30%, SR up)
Hariyama used Close Combat!
Swampert faints / switches.

Swampert either sets up rocks, takes 70% and switches, or Earthquakes you and doesnt set up SR.. how is that a tie / loss?????

EDIT: The actual damage is 58-69%, but whatever same scenario.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Interesting analysis DrkSlay. I'd say there are actually a few things we can do to make this lead fare a bit better against some of the leads it currently loses to.

Possible change 1: Slash Close Combat in with Low Kick. I have no idea what this implies as far as damage on certain leads go. Eyeballing it, I think the only common lead target of CC that Low Kick does less damage to is Machamp, which may or may not end up mattering (haven't done the calcs on that one). If it turns out that Low Kick gets the same kills as Close Combat, this greatly helps your chances against Metagross and Swampert while not really hurting anything else.

Possible change 2: Slash in Bullet Punch with Fake Out or Ice Punch/Stone Edge. Basically this guarantees you beat LeadApe and any other Fake Out or Ghost-type leads you run into. Using it over Fake Out means you lose to sleep leads and using it over Ice Punch or Stone Edge means you take a massive hit as far as coverage goes, but hey, it does help you against LeadApe and it adds a bit more residual damage to things that are barely within KO range (Metagross actually has a chance of dying to Fake Out -> CC -> Bullet Punch).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Killing a suicide lead is not a win if you don't stop rocks. If it threw down rocks and died, it "won". (also colburelf beats this just as hard as it beats machamp ^_^)

Anyway, your situation in regards to the Infernape lead is incredibly unlikely. After you Payback to break the sash and do your piddly ass amount of damage, the likelihood that it's staying in on you is approximately dick. That, or it's just going to Close Combat you, rack up whatever damage it can, and then due to Hariyama taking 24% + whatever Close Combat / Fire Blast's damage is, it might as well be 5-5 with him rocks and you none.

So to revise the list of leads to something a bit more realistic:

• Azelf: Neutral. Its aim is to set up rocks and then die, so it user obviously doesn't care about ending up 6-5. See: Machamp. They win practically the same way (Priority to Payback as comapred to Payback to Priority). Machamp is superior due to not taking damage in the meantime. Also note that both lose to ColburElf.
• Aerodactyl: See: Azelf. Again, no damage on Machamp makes it better.
  
• Swampert: Tie. Fake Out + +1 CC does not 2HKO. If you decide to CC first turn, Swampert could EQ and do roughly 70% damage after the drop. With the Flame Orb/Toxic Orb, that's practically a draw. You do prevent SR this way (although Swampert is also guaranteed SR with these calcs). Machamp has a 50% chance to stop rocks through DynamicPunch. Lose.
• Metagross: Lose. This has already been discussed. Machamp has a 50% chance of Metagross not being able to get off its second move, which makes it the clear winner.
• Machamp: Win. Fake Out + +1 CC. Then again, this isn't that big of a deal either, as beating an Anti-Lead with and Anti-Lead doesn't prevent anything, per se. But still, very nice. Neutral.
• Jirachi: Lose. Darn that Flinchhax. Hariyama double loses since it's taking 12.5% more damage per turn to Flinch, leading to it very likely being 2hkoed by Iron Head to Machamp's 3HKO.
  
• Infernape: Tie/Lose. Here's where (I think) Machamp has a clear cut better advantage, although small as it is. You lose the Fake Out war. It is then guaranteed Stealth Rock AND one attack on you, thanks to Sash. With Orb damage factored in, that's going to hurt. Machamp clearly wins here because Ape doesn't get the chance to hit it.
• Ninjask: Is Ninjask. Although, with that said, Machamp does deal with BP recipients better with DPunch. No one likes confusion. This is small, though. Neutral.
• Tyranitar: Win. See: Machamp. Machamp wins because it's only taking 6.25 per turn instead of 18.75.
• Heatran: Win/Loss. If Shuca, it's a win. If LO/Specs Overheat Anti-Lead, it's a loss. Same with Machamp. Again, same as Machamp, except against LO, it has a slight chance to be OHKO'd, while Hariyama has a <50% chance to be dead at the end of the turn due to Burn damage. "Loss"
• Roserade: Win. Same as Machamp. Again, Machamp doesn't take damage per turn. "Loss"
• Hippowdon: Tie/Loss. Machamp does this better, IMO. Fake Out + Two +1 CC fails to 3HKO, which would have given Hariyama a slight advantage. Machamp can prevent Stealth Rock from Hippowdon while also beating it with its own Ice Punch/DPunch. Again, 50% chance of stopping rocks >>> 0% chance, and Hippowdon can destroy your existence with EQ. Definite loss.
• Uxie: Tie/Loss. If TrickScarf, it can get up SR or lock you into one move while killing itself (practically), meaning it's a tie. If Screens, you lose. Not much different than Machamp. "tie"
  
• Smeargle: Win. FO + Status keeps you alive. Note that Machamp does this thanks to Lum and loses no damage in the process.
• Gliscor: Win. You have Ice Punch. Again, Machamp doesn't take damage per turn.

Basically, Hariyama is only better than Machamp at beating Machamp, which is uninteresting. It takes damage per turn, which makes using it kinda gay. Part of why Machamp is so ridiculous to face is because it's nearly impossible to OHKO it without some insane attack. By wearing itself down and not investing in its incredibly mediocre physical Defense, it's quite easy to take Hariyama out midgame.

I think this is the very definition of "outclassed". It's worse as a lead, worse at taking hits, and worse at midgame utility.

 

[Towelie]

...DrkSlay did you SERIOUSLY say lack of a good fighting move? What the fuck? Close Combat is the best fighting move in the game... Hariyama ALWAYS beats Heatran (bar specs... but who uses that as a lead...) and Uxie is always beaten. Fake Out first turn. If theirs lefties, assume no scarf (obviously). Uxie is faster so payback hits hard, u turn does shit, and psychic shouldn't 2hko (i dont think unless with investment) and you can CC to hit the switch-in so I'd say thats a definite win. And Machamp rarely beats Hippo unless it's very very very lucky. Hariyama lets rocks get up, but he has an automatic 2hko which is very good for the "best physical wall in the game" For machamp you said it has constant priority. Yes, that maybe true, but its fucking non stab bullet punch without any type of boost.... You say beating machamp isnt a big deal but thats fucking huge. machamp wreaks so much havoc on everything and its usually a total bitch to most teams so this is one of the biggest perks to using hariyama imo.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

flare - your first change seems smartest. allowing him to possibly to beat the same leads as well as help with metagross and pert. (although he still beats both...) You're second option seems pretty silly to me. Being able to better counter a lead he already beats + the odd lead for losing to Roserade and Smeargle... Sides, ghosts are dead, he has payback...

Drk - I ask you, WHO is going to plan a strategy to beat a hariyama lead? If i ever saw this thing has a lead, I'd laugh. It suprises people on how well it does. Honestly, go ask someone random on shoody, "if you had a swampert lead and then sent out a hariyama, what would your first move be..." most would say rocks. I would even use rocks, but not now.

Seven - Sure they might get rocks up, but their "win" quickly becomes a loss if you have a rapid spinner. Most teams pack one too.

 

[RaikouLover]

Also note that both lose to ColburElf

No. Wrong. Azelf takes 78-92% from Guts Payback through Colbur Berry. Run some calcs.

It sounds like your trying to knock this set rather than try it. Arbitrarily saying "Oh Machamp has 50% chance to have them not attack" for every move doesn't make this set bad in anyway. I can easily say "Hariyama does 50% MORE DAMAGE to everything."

And what the fuck does Machamp's effectiveness have to do with this set? It clearly beats most OU leads, including the top 2 very handily EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I don't see what is "unviable" about this set at all and why it doesnt deserve approval.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

What part of "it is horribly horribly outclassed" do you not get? It's literally worse at everything except beating Machamp. It takes hits worse, it can't ever stop rocks, it can't abuse confusion, it has to kill itself to be effective, etc. Why should asses be busted to write and add an entire OU section to the analysis simply for a lead that is not only nearly identical to a set currently on-site, but is also horribly outclassed by a far superior lead?

 

[RaikouLover]

Its NOT horribly outclassed. Machamp doesn't stop rocks, and Hariyama is actually bulkier if you want to play that game. Your being trivial and rejecting it just because you *can* which is just wrong.

Azelf: Neutral. Its aim is to set up rocks and then die, so it user obviously doesn't care about ending up 6-5. See: Machamp. They win practically the same way (Priority to Payback as comapred to Payback to Priority). Machamp is superior due to not taking damage in the meantime.

What kinda bullshit nitpicking is this? Seriously? "Machamp takes 6% less." How about Machamp is slower. How about Machamp is 50% weaker against the next pokemon? How about you can switch out and used Gutsed Fake Out later in the match?

You went out of your way to analyze the list of the top 15 leads. This set beats 11 of them easily and efficiently. Yet it isn't viable to be on site? Yeah ok...

 

[Lucien Lachance]

hariyama works best with wish support, off weighting the damage taken from orb.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Here's the post that someone else made, showcasing the differences between the two and what you need to prove:

1. Is the extra damage output worth the lack of DynamicPunch and its confusion? What can Hariyama hit harder outside of the Lead Pokemon that really is important enough to not only warrant its use, but warrant using Toxic and Flame Orb Guts? I would really like to see some calculations illustrating these kinds of important details, specifically with Close Combat and DynamicPunch. Also, make sure they're positive too. For instance, +1 CC may 2HKO Skarmory, but at -1 Def, Skarm can OHKO Hariyama with Brave Bird (Skarm outspeeds you). Switching results in it playing mindgames, either Roosting of the damage or setting up Spikes. Machamp just beats Skarm better, thanks to DynamicPunch's confusion rate. So, what are some examples where Hariyama does better. I don't believe that the damage boost is important when it means a significant reduction in bulk as well as not mattering against any leads. Machamp is difficult to switch into because of a combination of power, confusion, and bulk. I don't believe that the difference in power makes up for the confusion and bulk advantages that Machamp provides.

2. Is the constant blocking of status at the cost of being Burned/Poisoned all game worth it? Shouldn't blocking one status be enough, ala Lum Berry? What exactly is the advantage here? As stated, Lum Berry is just as effective as Guts at blocking crucial status in and outside of the lead position.

3. Looking at the lead Pokemon, is Hariyama worth considering over Machamp, even though some leads make each win or lose when compared to each other? Hariyama has Machamp. Machamp has Swampert, Infernape, Hippowdon, and (slightly) Smeargle. Who has the better match-ups? Machamp has a 50% chance of beating Swampert and Hippowdon before they can get SR up, and again, Machamp is not taking any damage while it defeats opposing leads. Machamp is only a 50% against itself, compared to the 100% of Hariyama, but Hariyama is 0% against Infernape, Swampert, and Hippowdon, which are more crucial to beat, and is also "slightly worse" against pretty much every single other lead due to the status damage.