Has Stealth Rock lost its Effectiveness in OU?

[Resist]

Let's face it, SR has 3 resistances (types), and 4 weaknesses (types).

Steel, Ground, and Fighting are the 3 types which resist it, and they are very common in OU. Especially the ever-common Lucario whom is 4x resistant to SR (as is Steelix, but it is not OU).

Ice, Fire, Flying, and Bug are the 4 types which are weak to it, and the first two are very uncommon in OU.

In addtion, either Steel or Fighting accompany the only 2 Fire types in OU- Infernape and Heatran, effectively making them nuetral to Stealth Rock.

Furthermore, either Steel or Fighting also accompany 3/5 of the only Bug types in OU- Scizor, Forretress and of course Heracross.

Granted the only 2 other Bug types in OU are 4x weak to SR- Ninjask and Yanmega, so there is something to make-up for the other 3 nuetral Bugs, but still these 2 are much less popular (Baton pass Teams in General are less popular in the faster paced DP), or are almost always leads.


Ice is also a very rare type in OU- Only Weavile, Mamoswine, and Abamasnow are popular in DP. Additionally, Weavile and Abamasnow (for its ability, rather than wekaness) are common leads, while Mamoswine is only nuetral to SR because it is part Ground.

Therefore, 1/3 of the OU Ice types are nuetral to SRock, and the other 2 are commonly used as Leads.

I must also point out that the only 4x weak to Stealth Rock Ice type (Articuno) is a Border Line pokemon, rather than a UU pokemon, where SR is even more common in UU. Keep in Mind that Jynx is UU (And has 361 Base Special Attack when Modest), so don't simply say Articuno is simply too strong for BL. So if one were to say that Articuno isn't used for its 4x weakness, then why isn't it's usage down to UU, where it would literally be "Underused"?


Now, here is where the value of SR kicks in, on its last effective type: Flying.

Flying is quite common in OU: Salamence, Zapdos, Gyarados, Dragonite, Togekiss, Skarmary, and Gliscor.

(If you are thinking about Crobat, Moltres, Aerodactyl, Charizard, and Staraptor then you forgot they are BL, not OU, furthermore, if you feel Charizard is not OU simply b/c of SR alone, keep in mind it can actually take advantage of SR and use its Belly Drum set without needing to use Substitute to activate Blaze and Salac, potentially giving Charizard assistance rather than deterance from switchin in).


So with 7 OU flying types, Flying is the most common type weak to SR, but keep in mind the last 2 (Skarmary and Gliscor) are actually nuetral to SR because they are either part Steel, or part Ground, leaving only 5 OU Flying types weak to SR.

Keep in mind Skarmary and Gliscor are probably 2 of the most used OU Flying types in D/P as they are the most used Physical walls in the game.

Additionally, Dragonite is not seen very often, so in a way, there are only 4 common Flying types weak to SR in OU (Gyarados, Salamence, Zapdos, and Togekiss), and that the last 3 of these Flying types all have access to at least 1 healing move; Roost.

So, let's take a look at the Pokemon in TOTAL weak to Stealth Rock in OU:

Fire- 0

Bug- 2 (Ninjask and Yanmega)

Ice- 2 (Weavile and Abamasnow)

Flying- 5 (Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, Togekiss, and Dragonite).


So out of all OU pokemon only 9 are weak to SR, and 6 of those 9 (Ninjask, Yanmega, Weavile, Abamasnow, Salamence, Gyarados) are commonly used as leads, meaning their first-turn-use is never affected by SR.

Additionally, Dragonite is rarely seen in OU, so it, in a sense at least, feels like there are only 8 OU pokemon weak to SR.


Let's for a minute take a look at the Ability Levitate. Just like Flying Types, Pokemon with Levitate are Immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground attacks, but unlike Flying types, they are not necessarily weak to Ice, Electric, nor Rock.

In fact, some Levitating pokemon are used in the place of Flying types to avoid a Weakness (or even to avoid a Nuetrality) to Stealth Rock, while maintaining their benefits:
examples include-

Gengar over Zapdos- Alternative Special Sweeper

Azelf over Zapdos- Alternative Special Sweeper

Azelf over (Nasty Plot) Togekiss- Alternative Special Sweeper

LO Flygon over LO Salamence- Alternative EQ/Spikes/TSpikes Immune Dragon. (LO Flygons usually pack Dragon Claw/EQ/Fire Blast/Roost, plus Flygon is resistant to SR).

Bronzong/Claydol over Gliscor/Skarmary- Alternative SR set-upper/Tank. (Bronzong does get Rest/Talk)


Sometimes Ground, Fighting or Steel types are also used in place of OU Flying/Bug/Ice types:

Garchomp may be used over Salamence or Dragonite

Magnezone over Zapdos (plus Magnezone does get Electrolevitate which gives it an immunity to EQ for 5 turns, which lets it catch up to Zapdos in a way of being a rare electric type immune to EQ)

LO Lucario/Metagross over Gyarados as a physical Sweeper

Hippowdon over Abamasnow to change the weather.

ETC.

My question is, Can Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes be good without SRock?

Remember with only 7 Flying types weak to SRock, doesn't spikes seem more beneficial? 1 Layer hits for the same as neutral SRock, and while it misses FLying/Levitate pokemon, it does hit Steels/Fighting/Ground types for 12%, (and the same can be said for Toxic Spikes, barring Steel/Poison Types).

Spikes, unlike SRock, can also be stacked, and if more layers are down, always do 18%-25%.

Discuss its use, its need and the worthiness of SR.

 

[Stathakis]

right, but there are so many important pokemon. for instance, bulky resttalk gyarados is very formidable if you can keep rocks off the field. rocks hurt his walling abilities a lot. also, many people ev their pokemon to 2hko pokemon with rocks up, easing the use of evs. then you've also got the point of random sashers not being able to ruin your sweep as long as you've got stealth rock, which is the main reason to run it. those are the big things to consider, not the actual usage of stealth rock to deal damage. stall teams without spikes and/or toxic spikes aren't going to do very good, but offensive teams that make use of stealth rock to ease 2hko's and ohko's and ruin sashers are going to have big wants for it.

 

[Tyranids]

It also eliminates the possibility of any focus sashes (except, maybe.. Cleffable, but who does that?)

 

[aura_lucario]

What Stathakis said essentially summarizes why Stealth Rocks is useful. Stealth Rocks also hits all kinds of Pokemon, unlike Spikes and Toxic Spikes which do not hit levitaters and Flying type Pokemon. Plus, S.R. is easy to lay down and move on, unlike Spikes or Toxic Spikes, which many people try to lay down several layers of these entry hazards.
Also, it's slightly difficult to say S.R. has lost its usefulness in OU because, while the sets of Pokemon change, the types do not. If Stealth Rocks was not good in OU, it would probably never have caught on in the metagame.

My question though is, Can Spikes/Tspikes make-up for lack of SRock on your team, and is SR worth it?

This usually depends one what kind of team you have. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are great additions to stall teams, but for fast-paced, attacking oriented teams, S.R. can be useful because it only takes one turn to set up and it puts some Pokemon in the OHKO or 2HKO range that you need.

 

[Resist]

Sandstorm/Hail alone runs sashers that are not the respectable types, but I see what you mean.

My question though is, Can Spikes/Tspikes make-up for lack of SRock on your team, and is SR worth it?

Also keep in mind: TSS= Toxic Spikes Snadstorm. Toxic (Spikes)+Spikes+Hippowodon/Tyranitar make this happen, so SR is not even a necessity to those types of teams.

 

[Tyranids]

Sandstorm/Hail alone runs sashers that are not the respectable types, but I see what you mean.

My question though is, Can Spikes/Tspikes make-up for lack of SRock on your team, and is SR worth it?

Also keep in mind: TSS= Toxic Spikes Snadstorm. Toxic (Spikes)+Spikes+Hippowodon/Tyranitar make this happen, so SR is not even a necessity to those types of teams.

Both of those leads (Hippo preferably) can lay SR... So why not?

 

[Stall]

Keep in mind that SR is a 1-turn move, while the other 'spikes' require 2 or 3 turns for maximum effectiveness.

 

[Kijin]

9/48 (and no, you can't just take out Dragonite because it "isn't as common" as other OUs, if it is in the OU Tier, it is overused. If it is not, it goes into BL) of the OU tier, a little under 1/5, is SR weak. Two are 50% weak.

SR stacks with passive damage/status and is available as a TM, something not possible with Spikes and Toxic Spikes. SR's additional damage due to Rock weakness makes it potentially as powerful as multiple layers of Spikes after a single use. SR is able to hit Pokemon immune to Toxic and regular Spikes, such as Cresselia and Skarmory.

Spikes are only learned by 3 OU Pokemon (and one BL). Toxic Spikes are only learned by 2 OU Pokemon (and one BL).This is contrasted by the 18 OU (and many more BL) that learn the Stealth Rock TM. Factor in the fact that the previously stated Flying type and any other Pokemon with Levitate are completely immune to Toxic and normal Spikes and that any Steel or Poison type is completely immune to Toxic Spikes (Poison types, although minimal in number, automatically remove Toxic Spikes, negating the need for the use of Rapid Spin to remove said Spikes).

Because SR is available to so many of these Pokemon and Phazing is a viable strategy with Whirlwind/Roar on any BP or Stat-Upping Pokemon, the addition of passive damage only enhances the effectiveness of this strategy, making use of damaging Weather conditions and switch-in damage. SR's availability, potential for damage > that of Spikes, and effectiveness against Pokemon immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes make it all the more effective when considering movesets for any Pokemon with access to it.

SR is resisted by Metagross, Swampert, Donphan, Garchomp, Machamp, Jirachi and Lucario. Of these, Lucario is the best switch into rocks with a 4x resistance to Rock type attacks.


I do not think your argument holds water and am not entirely sure what you're trying to get across with this thread.

My question though is, Can Spikes/Tspikes make-up for lack of SRock on your team, and is SR worth it?

Also keep in mind: TSS= Toxic Spikes Snadstorm. Toxic (Spikes)+Spikes+Hippowodon/Tyranitar make this happen, so SR is not even a necessity to those types of teams.

All of the Flying types, a number of which take no damage in a Sandstorm (which is the more common of the two auto-Weather effects due to the general superiority of the Pokemon that auto-trigger them), completely invalidate your belief that TSS is a superior strategy to SR/whatever else. Also compound this with any Pokemon with Levitate.

Welcome to Smogon, btw.

Second Edit: Your entire argument forgets most all BL Pokemon. While they are BL, this doesn't mean they're unplayed, just that they're not as common as OU Pokemon. Roserade is the best example of a BL type that is generally OU, as its usage stats just lose out on being in the OU tier.

 

[Stathakis]

basically, combine what I said with what everyone else said, and you get your answer. stealth rock takes one turn (which are pretty easy to get early on) to set up and leaves a lasting effect. it's not needed as much on stall teams, which most TSS teams are, but it's still useful.

 

[Tangerine]

Note that laying SR on turn 1 means that you'll probably do at least 50% damage to switch ins (usually more of course!)

Many damage calcs are now done "assuming SR". Many sweepers rely on SR to give them that OHKO against something nowadays, things such as SD Lucario/Scizor come into mind. So no, SR didn't lose it's effectiveness in OU, it has become an integral part of OU.

In fact, some Levitating pokemon are used in the place of Flying types to avoid a Weakness (or even to avoid a Nuetrality) to Stealth Rock, while maintaining their benefits:
examples include-

You really need to back up your statement since as far as I can tell this is just one big assumption. Your statements like Gengar or Azelf replacing Zapdos and Togekiss is laughable mostly because even with SR down Togekiss and Zapdos is going to take hits a lot better than Gengar or Azelf ever will, not to mention they serve completely different roles.

Bronzong/Claydol over Gliscor/Skarmary- Alternative SR set-upper/Tank. (Bronzong does get Rest/Talk)

Are you really suggesting anyone used Claydol over Skarmory or Gliscor to avoid SR?

Your entire statements saying This Pokemon can replace X really shows how little you might know about the game. Each Pokemon serves a completely different purpose and I'm not sure why you're going on about "Oh because of SR people are replacing them with X", they're being replaced because "it suits the team better", not just because of SR. Really think before you can suggest "Garchomp can take the place of Dragonite and Salamence", or "Magnezone over Zapdos", or "Azelf over Zapdos or Togekiss" or "Claydol over Skarmory/Gliscor"

Seriously.

 

[Kijin]

Seriously.

For real real, not for play play.

OP, what is the purpose of this topic? Are you trying to phase SR out of OU by making a thread about it in a competitive battling community that relies on extremely accurate usage statistics updated monthly from hundreds and hundreds of battles? Are you trying to use examples you do not support (and cannot, as Tangerine pointed out your clear misunderstanding of the nature of many OU/competitive level Pokemon and what their uses are) to say an effect that many DO have support for as being useful?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Strangely, I go the opposite direction. Take your numbers and realize that a lot of pokemon COULD be more competitive if Stealth Rocks were removed from the pool.

And you missed Charizard. He's a very good pokemon that just DIES to Stealth Rock. That alone keeps him off the field. Stealth Rock also helps keep Gyarados off the table as an effective Garchomp Counter.

--------------------------------------------------
EDIT: You did mention Charizard here:

(If you are thinking about Crobat, Moltres, Aerodactyl, Charizard, and Staraptor then you forgot they are BL, not OU, furthermore, if you feel Charizard is not OU simply b/c of SR alone, keep in mind it can actually take advantage of SR and use its Belly Drum set without needing to use Substitute to activate Blaze and Salac, potentially giving Charizard assistance rather than deterance from switchin in).

But this is a ridiculous argument. Crobat is a viable part of the OU metagame, as is Charizard and Stealth Rock simply ruins him. It does NOT help Charizard. Without Stealth Rock Staraptor might even have a place in OU as either BulkyRaptor or Redbull (Tauros with wings).
----------------------------------------------------

Also keep in mind that Stealth Rock ALWAYS does some damage. It can't be avoided by spikes, sucked up by poison types, etc. Its only removed by Rapid Spin, a move that is limited in pokemon that can even learn it.

So I don't agree that Stealth Rock has lost its effectiveness. If anything, with the rise of the Sandstorm teams and Garchomp it is even more effective as it helps limit the counters for Garchomp in particular and useful OU pokemon in general.

If anything, its a worthwhile candidate for removal from the move pool.... an unprecedented step by one that would increase the number of useable pokemon.

 

[Killernoob]

well as far as I can see he is just asking why SR is important in the OU metagame, he backed up his question fairly well but left out the BL tier which is olny usable in OU so they will be used there. and then threw some OU pokes out such as Dragonite out of the mix. but tbh... most teams wont have that many pokemon taking 50% from SR.what I'm tring to say is that 9/49 over used are weak to SR but with some sharing the same type (Dragonite, Salamence) they both wont be on the same team, unless its for fun, so if a team has one they less prone to have another, nonetheless SR is a very big help in todays metagame.

don't be so hard on him.

 

[Resist]

I didn't miss BL flying pokemon, including CHarizard, go to the Flying Section and then look at the smaller font. I have always had that there.

And thank you Killernoob for your courage, I am glad some1 sees some purpose to my thread.

And I am sure if I was trully a NOOB (considered by the others), then based on your name you would have killed me, but I am still standing.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I didn't miss BL flying pokemon, including CHarizard, go to the Flying Section and then look at the smaller font. I have always had that there.

Edited into my last post. You can see my reaction up above. It isn't positive. You're tossing out BL pokemon that actually would be OU without Stealth Rocks in play.

 

[Resist]

I also have reasons listed for Ariticuno if others have been tempted to point that out, again it is listed in smaller font under the Ice section.

 

[Shinryu]

Honestly, I've actually been thinking of converting to SR instead of keeping Spikes. SR will at least hit anything on the switch-in, whereas Spikes cannot hit flyers or levitators obviously, which seem to be more common to me (I usually play on wifi bear in mind). SR also has the potential to do more damage to a switch-in (up to 50% due to 4x Weakness), which is huge considering that Spikes will only do 25% max per switch-in. And of course, there's the time factor; SR is easy to setup in 1 turn, while Spikes is a lot more annoying, requiring 3 turns to properly setup, and let's face it, that's more than enough time for your opponent to get in a counter to whatever spiker you happen to be using.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

i'd still say focus sash as the main reason. sandstorm/hail doesn't go til after the turn, so they could survive, kill you, and THEN they die. fuck that, i want them dead on the first hit.

 

[animenagai]

i'm not sure i buy the argument. bottom line is that SR is a one turn move that can do A LOT of total damage. there is nothing that is immune to SR damage either.

 

[Resist]

Including BL there are only 5 pokemon weak to SR by 4x

Moltres
Charizard
Ariticuno
Ninjask
Yanmega

the last 2 are almost always leads (which means that even with SR weaknesses, many people don't decide to replace them). Ninjask is a lead b/c of its ability, and always has been since Adv. even b4 SR was in existence, so we know it isn't a lead just because of SR.

Yanmega is a lead because with Protect+Speed Boost it can counter many other leads:

Bug Buzz on Weavile, Air Slash on CSscarf Roserade, Hidden Power [Ice]/[Electric] on Salamence or Gyarados leads, etc.

Charizard doesn't mind SR if it plans on switching in to Belly Drum (survivng with 1 HP, activating Blaze and Salac Berry), or simply switching in after 1 Substitute to activate Blaze/Salac Berry while at 25% life.

You may say that SR hinders some pokemon, while others may actually benefit from it. And seriously, with Blaze and Salac Berry activated for fire moves, it is the equivalent of Heracross with CHoice Scarf coming in on Toxic Spikes (with Guts). Both are fast, both get a boost to 1 move (Locked in for Scarf, and Blaze only will boost Fire Punch), and potentially sweep, hell Charizard may even have a Salac berry and be a Special Sweeper with Blaze giving it an awsome Double STAB on Fire Blast.

Don't count Charizard out. Same can be said for Reversal versions of Yanmega (with Liechi Berry) whom either switch in on SR 2x, or Substitute down.

Ninjask may also benefit as it can be sent to 50%, substitute 1x, then activate whatever berry it holds and the baton Pass +1 Speed and the berry boost.

Don't count them out so quickly.

As for Articuno/Moltres, both can effectively use Roost, so they can come in at the right time, take the 50% damage and roost it the next turn if they come in on say, Umbreon or something that isn't threatening.

 

[gorm]

sr is also cool to scout for lefties, and just hampering stuffs ability to switch in. a celebi at 50% and a celebi at 38% is really a world of difference when it comes to taking certain attacks. i really like it just for that, reducing a counter's ability to freely switch in forever

 

[Ambitions]

SR negates focus sasher's right off the bat, dose 12.5% damage to most poke which end up switching in about twice a battle, 25% total, and fucks over the most common type in OU. How can you say they have lost there importance? As far as I'm concerned, they are the only reason Gyaradose is used as a lead instead of a late game sweeper.

SR also only takes one turn to totally wreck a team where as Spikes you need to lay down multiple layers and you miss the most common type in OU as well as Levitate poke.

Toxic Spikes are great no matter what as long as your team doesn't rely on paralyzing poke or sleeping them.

SR has the potential to do more damage in one turn than any move will in the entire game think about it. 20 switches, 12.5 % damage each time = 250%. A OHKO and a half. Wow.

 

[ToF]

I hate topics like this because there's always some critic that looks at the harms of a particular move in this game. Saying Stealth Rock is bad because of the immunities is like saying Spikes/Toxic Spikes should not be used because there are immunities to them. All field moves can be either beneficial or useless, but getting them out there is always an advantage for a player. Stealth Rocks can be the difference between a stall or kill, as Gorm stated with the Celebi example. Each has their uses, and simply because each has immunities doesn't mean each is ineffective.

 

[Itsuki]

I really like using Stealth Rock. It helps weaken many common and annoying to take down Pokemon such as Zapdos and Gyarados and weaken many powerful and fast sweepers such as Weavile and Salamence making them think twice about switching in.

Stealth Rock "negates" Focus Sash users and beats those that hung on to their Focus Sash surviving with 1 HP.

Also another reason why it's really good is because it helps OHKOs and 2HKOs. For example a Neutral natured Infernape with 26 Atk EVs as suggested in the analysis does 90.2% - 106.16% missing the sure OHKO, but with Stealth Rock you OHKO Blissey.

 

[Resist]

for the other 39 Ou Pokemon (48-9), this will either do 12.5%, 6.25%, or 3.125% (Lucario), which is healed most of the time by Leftovers at least, if not equal to 1/2 of the damage received.

So keep the 6.25% damage in perspective at least when considering pokemon whom always use Leftovers (Blissey).

I know it hits before Leftovers/Wish heals, b/c it hits on the switch, but don't forget that it all Leftovers/Black Sludge considered, its alot less effective than 12.5% most of the time.

Not to mention the amount of Steel/Ground/Fighting types that would take more damage (EVEN FROM 1 LAYER OF SPIKES, NOT 3) from a single layer of Spikes, versus the 5 Flying types, and Levitating types in the OU tier.