Thanks for the thread Chris is me. I've always loved Hariyama and am well aware of its capabilities. However, Snorlax does the resttalk better IMO is what I've found from experience. They both get Whirlwind, Body Slam is more powerful, and Snorlax lasts a helluva lot longer. He definately is a fantastic counter to Tyranitar, Weavile, etc. but the reason he isn't used as much is because there are other OU pokemon that can do the same thing and still fit into a team. For example, Scizor counters them both easily, and can U-Turn out of Tar even if it has Fire Blast. The main issue is though, while Hariyama counters Tyranitar, Weavile, and Blissey perfectly, every other fighting pokemon does as well :-(. LUCARIO (#1), Heracross, and Machamp can all switch in pretty much freely on those three, barring the occasional random Aerial Ace or Fire Blast. And since those three pose a more potent offensive threat than Hariyama as well, that is why they "outclass" him, or just in lamens terms --- get used more.
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Hey everybody! Hariyama is amazing!
- Thread starter cim
- Start date
Well, not exactly. Hariyama is the ONLY Pokémon that 100% counters Tyranitar. That Scizor you posted, for example, gets owned by Fire Blast, while Hariyama doesn't even flinch at it. Hariyama is also very capable of handling stuff like Infernape (I'd love to see Snorlax do that).
Lucario is risking a OHKO from Earthquake and Brick Break, Heracross risks a OHKO from Weavile Aerial Ace. Hariyama fears neither of these.
In terms of "Sleep Talking Fire and Ice resist", Snorlax does better, yeah. But Hariyama's ace in the hole is that ability combined with his Fighting typing, which allows him more SE coverage and resistances. He also has 10 more Base Attack and no Fighting weakness.
Lucario is risking a OHKO from Earthquake and Brick Break, Heracross risks a OHKO from Weavile Aerial Ace. Hariyama fears neither of these.
In terms of "Sleep Talking Fire and Ice resist", Snorlax does better, yeah. But Hariyama's ace in the hole is that ability combined with his Fighting typing, which allows him more SE coverage and resistances. He also has 10 more Base Attack and no Fighting weakness.
I understand exactly where your coming from and agree with you 100%. I was just observing that the reason why he isn't used as much is because there are OU pokemon that can switch into those Tar and Weavile realitively easily that are easier to use (speaking for players who don't normally think outside of the box). Rather than carrying that 100% counter to Tyranitar, one can just pack a Lucario and Garchomp and attempt to just predict around him, which is what most teams do in his case. Now I have 2 of the highest power sweepers in the game and Tyranitar is somewhat covered decently. Not to mention that the most used Revenge killer now (Deoxys-E) scares the shit out of Tyranitar as well.
Unless you have curse, Snorlax has some trouble keeping up with Tyranitar. It takes more damage from focus punch then Hariyama. Lucario, Heracross and Machamp can all switch in on certain moves, but they can get hammered by earthquake, subpunch and flamethrower respectively. Hariyama can switch into anything Tyranitar can throw at it, take damage and return fire. It's exchanging extra safety and utility for more offensive, but frail Pokemon.
Edit: Heh, it's already been mentioned.
I'm sorry, I meant in the defensive capabilities- I forgot to proofread my post before submitting. Will edit that in now.
I love Hariyama and I have been using him ever since Adv. He really is a great counter for many offensive threats.
I like using Force Palm, as it helps A LOT when things like Gyarados, Zapdos, Garchomp, etc. are switching in. Revenge seems like it could work tho as well. As for Brick Break, having neither a useful side effect like Force Palm nor the extra power boost when going last doesn't seem useful just for an extra 22.5 power(after STAB).
I really like the notion of Slack Off on Hariyama, as mentioned by Aldaron. That would make him an even better wall, and he would definitely be OU. The problem I see with this is it would probably be a tutor, and Snorlax would surely get it if so. Snorlax with Immunity, Slack Off, and Curse would absolutely rip apart the OU tier. If Hariyama received the lucky boost, more CB TTars Aerial Acing.
I usually run some special defense, like SkarmBlissCounter, as even with it, Choice Specs Heatran's Fire Blast does 47% max.
I like using Force Palm, as it helps A LOT when things like Gyarados, Zapdos, Garchomp, etc. are switching in. Revenge seems like it could work tho as well. As for Brick Break, having neither a useful side effect like Force Palm nor the extra power boost when going last doesn't seem useful just for an extra 22.5 power(after STAB).
I really like the notion of Slack Off on Hariyama, as mentioned by Aldaron. That would make him an even better wall, and he would definitely be OU. The problem I see with this is it would probably be a tutor, and Snorlax would surely get it if so. Snorlax with Immunity, Slack Off, and Curse would absolutely rip apart the OU tier. If Hariyama received the lucky boost, more CB TTars Aerial Acing.
I usually run some special defense, like SkarmBlissCounter, as even with it, Choice Specs Heatran's Fire Blast does 47% max.
Well, Hariyama does suffer from being somewhat slow and lacking a self recovery move. Like people already said, I think slack off would be a wonderful addition and would boost it's usability considerably.
One thing that's mentioned in the analysis is arm thrust. How workable do you think that is? It would be very surprising to things like Boah who think they're all nice and safe behind their substitute. It's capable of surprising sub abusers and might be useful against some of those random focus sashers. The only problem is you loose any power or support you get from running a more straightforward STAB move. And that's a big loss...
One thing that's mentioned in the analysis is arm thrust. How workable do you think that is? It would be very surprising to things like Boah who think they're all nice and safe behind their substitute. It's capable of surprising sub abusers and might be useful against some of those random focus sashers. The only problem is you loose any power or support you get from running a more straightforward STAB move. And that's a big loss...
I trained my own the other day; I haven't really got a chance to try it out since it's kinda like that one person said, it's a little hard to fit onto teams (like mine).
But I am so itching to try this thing out. I'm running the Impish Knock Off/Whirlwind/Force Palm/Stone Edge version, but I got a few new ideas from this thread.
It takes hits like a real man, and if it got Slack Off, I'm certain it would get a lot more noticed. I wanted one simply as a utility. I mean, look at all it can do: Knock items off, blow things away, 30% paralyzation, and a great move at taking out fliers.
I'd try it out on my team now if I could decide who to swap out with, but I like my coverage, although that means I only have 1 wall-ish Pokemon.
Hariyama is great and you can use him many ways, his only drawback is lasting power.
But I am so itching to try this thing out. I'm running the Impish Knock Off/Whirlwind/Force Palm/Stone Edge version, but I got a few new ideas from this thread.
It takes hits like a real man, and if it got Slack Off, I'm certain it would get a lot more noticed. I wanted one simply as a utility. I mean, look at all it can do: Knock items off, blow things away, 30% paralyzation, and a great move at taking out fliers.
I'd try it out on my team now if I could decide who to swap out with, but I like my coverage, although that means I only have 1 wall-ish Pokemon.
Hariyama is great and you can use him many ways, his only drawback is lasting power.
If you want, you can make more bulky Machamp (and not Sleep Talk/Rest set) and thanks to No Guard supporting moves like Scary Face (which lowers speed two stages), Toxic, etc. never miss. Also Machamp can use Light Screen, which Hariyama doesn't have if I remember correctly. But I think Hariyama have something, which gives him two huge advantages against Machamp - Thick Fat and superior hp. I love to use both of them, but to tell the truth Hariyama have much bigger defensive potential. But I tried to use more supporting Machamp and it worked kinda well.
Also I really like Hariyama for his options - Knock Off, Weather Moves (his really good weather setuper and having ability to scare off Tyranitar and Abomasnow is helpfull here), paralyse. He can also pretend opponent from statusing you (yep, hit from Guts Hariyama hurts) and he can work kinda well as pure attacker. And I also agree that Hariyama would be great Slack Off user. It's so bad, that he doesn't have Recycle, so he could run Rest + Recycle kinda effective and being sleep for 1 round instead of two like Snorlax can do. But I think Hariyama is really interesting pokemon with good attack and interesting supporting options. I like to use this guy and I think that thread is good promotion for him ;). Cheers.
Just posting to say that Hariyama is indeed amazing. It makes a great Ape/Tyranitar/Blissey/Lucario counter, and once I started using it, I had trouble making a team without it for a month or so. I personally prefferred the defensive set, with more HP than suggested, with the moveset of Force Palm/Whirlwind/Knock Off/Thunderpunch or Stone Edge. It works very well with the common Wishers (Jirachi and Vaporeon).
Yea, a Rest Talk set would work well to make Hariyama a persistent pest for the opponent trying to sweep. Almost want to abuse + Atk from Guts, but losing Fire resist would suck a lot.
Wow, Kingdrom, nice find on that extra 32 HP EVs to survive Garchomp's boosted Outrages =0
Wow, Kingdrom, nice find on that extra 32 HP EVs to survive Garchomp's boosted Outrages =0
The problem with that type of set is that Hariyama's STAB has more immunities (all Ghost-types) than Suicune's (Vaporeon). However, if you run it with a decent counter to ghost-type pokes, it works perfectly.
RestTalk BU Hariyama with Revenge hits like a beast with Guts Bulk Up Revenge, though it loses Thick Fat unfortunately. However, it's still a force to be reckoned with offensively. The biggest problem is that Machamp outclasses it somewhat with far better defensive stats, and Hariyama has to sacrifice its defensive advantage (Thick Fat) to gain the Guts Boost that makes a RestTalking Bulk Up set so scary.
RestTalk BU Hariyama with Revenge hits like a beast with Guts Bulk Up Revenge, though it loses Thick Fat unfortunately. However, it's still a force to be reckoned with offensively. The biggest problem is that Machamp outclasses it somewhat with far better defensive stats, and Hariyama has to sacrifice its defensive advantage (Thick Fat) to gain the Guts Boost that makes a RestTalking Bulk Up set so scary.
Physical Machamp Defense Tier: 115.93 - 120.74
Special Machamp Defense Tier: 116.45 - 121.13
Physical Hariyama Defense Tier: 116.58 - 121.58
Special Hariyama Defense Tier: 116.58 - 121.58
Hariyama is the one with the better defensive stats.
Special Machamp Defense Tier: 116.45 - 121.13
Physical Hariyama Defense Tier: 116.58 - 121.58
Special Hariyama Defense Tier: 116.58 - 121.58
Hariyama is the one with the better defensive stats.
Hariyama and Machamp are nearly freakin' identical stat-wise. The purpose you're using them should dictate which one goes on your team.
Hariyama is like the BL version of Poliwrath. The dude is a defensive juggernaut, the amazing set of resists with Thick Fat and great movepool give him a lot to work with. (Poor :@ is plagued by the most piss-poor movepool you'll ever see.
) The reason he's so underused compared to Machamp, though, is quite simple -- No Guard Dynamicpunch is way too good. He eats Sand Veil for breakfast and the 100% confusion on DP is a huge asset both offensively and defensively. It's stupid versatile and extremely reliable, the only issue is PP...
Hariyama is like the BL version of Poliwrath. The dude is a defensive juggernaut, the amazing set of resists with Thick Fat and great movepool give him a lot to work with. (Poor :@ is plagued by the most piss-poor movepool you'll ever see.
) The reason he's so underused compared to Machamp, though, is quite simple -- No Guard Dynamicpunch is way too good. He eats Sand Veil for breakfast and the 100% confusion on DP is a huge asset both offensively and defensively. It's stupid versatile and extremely reliable, the only issue is PP...
Quality thread.
Hariyama might just rock the house in Trick Room too. With base speed 50, it becomes dead quick - and it hits like a ton of bricks.
Here's something I just started planning. I was going to try out a Trick Room team for BT doubles, but then I saw this thread and realised I may have my sweeper...
Hariyama
Relaxed @ Lefties
252hp, 52atk, 100def, 100sp.def
= =
Fake Out
Belly Drum
Close Combat / Brick Break
Rock Slide
It co-leads with Trick Room Bronzong, so Fake Out helps ensure TR goes down without a hitch.
It then Drums - of course, it has to survive the rest of the turn at 50% health, hence the +def nature and (probably badly-distributed) EVs. Bronzong can Hypnotise one of the opponents to make life easier.
From then on, it brings unholy mega-death with STAB +6 Close Combat, which ought to OHKO practically every non-Ghost ever. If the defence drops turn out to be a problem, Brick Break works as an alternative.
Rock Slide for coverage; I opt for this over Stone Edge as it hits both targets, has superior accuracy and - get this - Hariyama can flinch things with it.
It would likely be vulnerable to priority moves, but I think the possibility of the E Hondamon dropping STAB Drum Hundred Hand Close Combats is too tempting...
Hariyama might just rock the house in Trick Room too. With base speed 50, it becomes dead quick - and it hits like a ton of bricks.
Here's something I just started planning. I was going to try out a Trick Room team for BT doubles, but then I saw this thread and realised I may have my sweeper...
Hariyama
Relaxed @ Lefties
252hp, 52atk, 100def, 100sp.def
= =
Fake Out
Belly Drum
Close Combat / Brick Break
Rock Slide
It co-leads with Trick Room Bronzong, so Fake Out helps ensure TR goes down without a hitch.
It then Drums - of course, it has to survive the rest of the turn at 50% health, hence the +def nature and (probably badly-distributed) EVs. Bronzong can Hypnotise one of the opponents to make life easier.
From then on, it brings unholy mega-death with STAB +6 Close Combat, which ought to OHKO practically every non-Ghost ever. If the defence drops turn out to be a problem, Brick Break works as an alternative.
Rock Slide for coverage; I opt for this over Stone Edge as it hits both targets, has superior accuracy and - get this - Hariyama can flinch things with it.
It would likely be vulnerable to priority moves, but I think the possibility of the E Hondamon dropping STAB Drum Hundred Hand Close Combats is too tempting...
That doesn't sound too bad in Doubles, though I know little about the Doubles metagame in general. A few things I'd change though:
Unlike most Pokémon, Hariyama has gargantuan HP and low defensive stats. Thus, it's not the best idea to max HP first. You should be running 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SDef; Brave so that you're more likely to OHKO things.
On this particular Hariyama, Guts is a must. If your opponent has an opposing Sleep inducer, Fake Out it as Bronzong Trick Rooms, and then have Bronzong Hypnosis it. Otherwise, status shouldn't phaze you much, in fact boosting your offenses to the level that nothing in the game can take hits from him.
Item I'm not sure on. Chesto Berry is a decent option so that the one status that does hurt Hariyama is blocked but none of the others...
Unlike most Pokémon, Hariyama has gargantuan HP and low defensive stats. Thus, it's not the best idea to max HP first. You should be running 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SDef; Brave so that you're more likely to OHKO things.
On this particular Hariyama, Guts is a must. If your opponent has an opposing Sleep inducer, Fake Out it as Bronzong Trick Rooms, and then have Bronzong Hypnosis it. Otherwise, status shouldn't phaze you much, in fact boosting your offenses to the level that nothing in the game can take hits from him.
Item I'm not sure on. Chesto Berry is a decent option so that the one status that does hurt Hariyama is blocked but none of the others...
Actually, that's in the analysis, kind of. 204 HP EVs guarantee survival from an Adamant (lol) Garchomp SD Outrage. And you can Counter it. Hey look, a Garchomp counter!
This sounds interesting, what would be a good EV spread for defensive/utility Hariyama?
Just a note:
Poliwrath has similar resistances, therefore it isn't unique to just Hariyama.
Being water makes it automatically have a pseudo-"Thick Fat", same goes for a fire types (although it would be weak to Rock, or possibly neutral if dual typed).
Poliwrath is weak to Grass and Electric I will admit, but Poliwrath's weaknesses are still covered by Celebi, and Zapdos.
Infact a similar team consisting of: Zapdos, Poliwrath, Tentacruel, Celebi
Could work similarly, and just as well.
Well yeah, except that the Grass weakness means Poliwrath can't counter Infernape anymore. Oh, and his Base 85 Attack is mediocre at best. And his defensive stats are worse, I think. And he can't switch in to the rare Thunderbolt Tyranitar like Hariyama can. And he doesn't get ThunderPunch, Knock Off, Force Palm, or Whirlwind (while Hypnosis is a plus I guess). Overall, I think he's a worse Pokémon and that Hariyama's really much better, at least at he role he serves. However, Poliwrath is a hell of a counter to Gyarados if you throw Stone Edge on him.
To bad he doesn't get Stone Edge in the first place.
I like Hariyama. Big bulky, and Knocks off a heck lot of stuff.
Hariyama can't take on Infernape neither on 60 base SpDef unless you pump it with 200+ EVs since it gets hit for 120 BP. Grass Knot is a comfortable 3HKO and can 2HKO with Stealth Rock down.
Poliwrath has 90 HP / 95 Def so its got better physical defences than Hariyama, 131 rating compared to 120 rating for Hariyama. And then its got a better typing than Hariyama defensively, Water, Ice and Rock resists means it counters a certain top 3 used pokemon.
Poliwrath has 90 HP / 95 Def so its got better physical defences than Hariyama, 131 rating compared to 120 rating for Hariyama. And then its got a better typing than Hariyama defensively, Water, Ice and Rock resists means it counters a certain top 3 used pokemon.