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HGSS 1Drag1Mag

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Smiles, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. Smiles


    Oct 18, 2010

    I loved the days when 4th gen was the current metagame. I'm too busy to start learning about the B/W metagame. I know a bit, but I just don't have any energy or motivation to actually make (or copy) a team and go play it.

    Plus, B/W is highly weather-based and is still developing. I have always hated weather. I don't mind sandstorm too much in D/P since nothing can really abuse it. Rock-types are bad enough that the Special Defense boost isn't annoying. Sun teams are pretty much non-existent in OU, and rain teams and hail teams are just annoying to face. I never find much success with Tyranitar and Hippowdon, so I tend to have weatherless teams.

    Even though D/P has died, it is the only generation I have ever played, therefore it is the only normal one in my perspective. People are still on the PO ladder for HGSS OU, so that's just awesome.

    Team Building

    The basis for this team was originally the theoretically-awesome concept of Dragonite and Magnezone resisting all 17 attacking types. I never really liked Magnezone, but having a Magnezone basically frees my team from getting other dedicated counters for Skarmory, Forretress, Bronzong, and Scizor.


    Ironic, but I only liked the DDNite set back when Salamence was OU. Why? I have no idea, I forgot.
    I really like the mixed set. I had never made a team good enough to actually use it well, so I was pretty excited to be using mixed Dragonite. The logic behind this is flawed, since Mixed Dragonite and Magnezone both take out steel-types.

    Who can benefit greatly from the removal of steels? Gengar can (Scizor can go kill himself), and that's not the only reason I used Gengar. Gengar is awesome. So many teams lack good enough Gengar counters, since Tyranitar and Weavile can be OHKOed. Weavile does a better job than Tyranitar, and is almost never seen.


    After the development of the main Pokemon that "do the work", I had to brainstorm for a lead and checks to threats.

    Some threats included Agility Lucario (which I have never seen in my life), DD Gyarados, Agility Metagross, and other speed-boosting sweepers since I didn't even add a Choice Scarf Pokemon yet.

    The obvious choices for Scarfing are Flygon and Jirachi. I had used both successfully in the past, 'cause they're both so good. I chose Jirachi for bulk and Heatran luring, while requiring less prediction. Flygon's Earthquake and U-Turn are like completely opposite moves, and you'd know what I mean if you've used CS Flygon excessively in the past. Against Heatran or Magnezone, for example, U-Turn does almost no damage while Earthquake will KO, but will fail miserably to ground-immune switch-ins, when U-Turn would have been a perfect choice.

    However, with the removal of steel-types, Flygon could easily clean up late-game. Both had their pros, but I decided on Jirachi for its general unpredictability and resistance to dragon-type moves.


    I wanted to be able to use U-Turn on Jirachi, but that would mean the removal of ThunderPunch to revenge kill Gyarados. Since ThunderPunch had this extremely specific utility, it would be just fine to find a specific Gyarados counter. Offensive Suicune is an obvious choice, since it is probably the best offensive counter to Gyarados in existence. Plus, so far every other member of my team packs a resistance to grass, which is pretty good type synergy.


    Deciding on Suicune wasn't actually that easy. Jolteon was considered as a revenge-killer against Gyarados, while also checking Rotom pretty well. Plus, running Expert Belt (since Choice Specs is hindered so much by SWITCHES) could nab surprise kills on Gliscor or Swampert, depending on my Hidden Power. Jolteon generally isn't that good, so I decided not to use it. I also like things that aren't walled by Blissey. Unless with a weird Fake Tears set, Jolteon has 0 chance of defeating Blissey, while Suicune has a slightly higher chance like 0.1%.

    Kingdra was an option, and still is. I just can't find a slot for it, since I also need a lead. Moving Jirachi to the lead slot would severely annoy its 4 moveslots. If I could have a 7th Pokemon, the first thing I'd do is add Kingdra. Kingdra would also have a nice role in combating Rain Dance teams. With the removal of steel-types like Forretress, Skarmory, and Empoleon, Kingdra would be able to do very well.

    Infernape was considered to help with wall-breaking, but the utility on this team isn't that great. Plus, I'd prefer to not have another Pokemon that is so demolished by residual damage, like Dragonite.

    My previous RMT featured Swampert as my lead, and Swampert is actually a VERY good lead. He's the only team member that really allows all variations of Breloom to set up, which is a let-down. However, he checks Infernape, Heatran, Jolteon, Zapdos, and Rotom-a among others. Swampert is also a great phazer, and is bulky enough to set up Stealth Rock multiple times if necessary.


    What I love is that they are all bulky, with the exception of Gengar, who almost never gets hit directly anyway.

    In Depth



    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Beam
    - Roar

    No, I did not read the Smogon analysis EV spread wrong. Standard lead Machamp has 4 Speed EVs, a lot of people run 8 EVs since Blissey and Machamp often run 4 EVs. Some clever people run 12 EVs, and only a few start running 16 or even 20.
    Well Swampert outspeeds 12 Spd Machamp so that it can get an Earthquake in first before it is confused. Without adding into Speed, Swampert gains 11 extra SDef points. I'd rather outspeed Machamp and Blissey, even if it means losing some more health against Heatran.

    The set itself is pretty standard and self-explanatory. Protect could be used in place of Roar to block Explosion, but Roar has so much more utility. Many teams have 1 Swampert counter, while Leftovers prevents the opponent from whittling away at Swampert's HP with weak, neutral attacks.

    Normally if I see a Flygon come in, I'll Roar it. 90% of Flygons don't like seeing Swampert, and switch using U-Turn. That's when I Roar the switch-in. Most Flygon, on the 2nd or 3rd time against a Roar-spamming Swampert, will actually attack. Switching to Jirachi to take the Outrage is risky, since it could use Earthquake. That's when I Ice Beam it. An opposing team without a Flygon just makes the battle a lot easier. Flygons are annoying as hell.

    Levitating Pokemon like Azelf, Uxie, and Bronzong are annoying to face, since Ice Beam does squat. Against Azelf, I use Stealth Rock on the first turn. Normally they expect me to switch because they could taunt me, which works in my favour because they end up just using Stealth Rock. If I get Taunted, big deal, I lose 1 turn. More often than not I'll get my rocks up on the first turn anyway, so the risk is worth it. On the 2nd turn, I switch to Jirachi on the U-Turn, Psychic, or Explosion, which Jirachi can take pretty well and U-Turn to whatever.

    Against Machamp, I use Earthquake first (Swampert outspeeds 99.9% of Machamps) and switch to Gengar. If Machamp is in KO range of Shadow Ball, I KO it. If not, I switch to Dragonite on the Payback and KO with Draco Meteor.

    Against Jirachi, I will switch to Jirachi to take the Trick or U-Turn, then spam Iron Head if it was Trick. Sometimes they expect me to switch out so they can give away the scarf on the second try, but I don't let them.



    @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Pain Split
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    This Gengar has been around long enough to be considered standard, but for some reason it's not. I really don't get how it's not the best set. Before Platinum (before Gengar got Pain Split) I loved Gengar's Substitute + 3 Attacks set, but this set allows the use of Life Orb and a longer life, at the cost of one coverage move. Gengar's raw power with Life Orb is enough to compensate for a little lost coverage.

    Scizor weakened to roughly 50 or 60% is KOed by Focus Blast, while Tyranitar and Weavile are OHKOed outright. Infernape is OHKOed by Shadow Ball, and Jirachi takes roughly 45 - 50%, which is enough to 2HKO after some previous damage.

    That's not even the good part. Gengar threatens so many Pokemon that a Substitute is extremely easy to set up. Gengar also almost-perfectly counters many common Pokemon. I can even scout the opponent's move with Substitute without worrying about Gengar's HP, since Pain Split will just bring it back up later. Opportunities are plentiful.

    Gengar can switch into non-status moves from Blissey, and have a stall war with Pain Split, Substitute, and Focus Blast. The only problem is Focus Blast's 8 PP, so the consistent form of damage is Pain Split. Even at full health, Gengar can take away around 30% of Blissey's health. There was once a Blissey with Fire Blast that I stalled against, and I ended up stalling out all 8 PP of Fire Blast.

    There's more! After using Spore, Breloom is helpless against Gengar unless it has Stone Edge. Seed Bomb doesn't do enough damage, while Focus Punch doesn't work and Leech Seed is blocked by Substitute. If it has Stone Edge, my Substitute would have blocked it, and I'll switch to Suicune.

    Gliscor is also Gengarbait. Other than Taunt and a no-reason Night Slash or Stone Edge, standard Gliscor cannot touch Gengar in the slightest. Taunt will only stop Gengar from setting up Substitutes and not damaging the opponent, but I could just predict a Tyranitar switch in and use Focus Blast. How often is Gliscor on a team without Tyranitar? Plus, I could just use Substitute before Gliscor Taunts Gengar, making things really really easy.

    About 90% of Scizor use Bullet Punch, while 10% use Pursuit. When Gengar has a Substitute, about 99% of Scizor use Bullet Punch. U-Turn or Superpower? Nope! I can switch directly to Magnezone and use Substitute. If Gengar dies in the process (Pursuit), at least I'll get back at their Scizor. Not even all Scizor have Pursuit in their set (lol Quick Attack), so the natural prediction is Bullet Punch. U-Turn will only occur when Gengar is at low health or the opponent is weird, because it only does about 30% to Gengar. That's bulk, I tell you.

    And here's a story. Someone tried to stall out Gengar's life with Life Orb and sandstorm damage, by repeatedly switching between Rotom-a and Tyranitar to take Focus Blasts and Shadow Balls, respectively. When Gengar had 1% left, they expected a Shadow Ball as they switched to Tyranitar. Boom, Pain Split. Gengar is back in the game, and healthy. Next, they switch back to Rotom-a as Focus Blast misses. Shadow Ball = KO. Tyranitar ended up dying too. The lesson? Gengar is boss.



    @ Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 108 Atk / 208 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Flamethrower
    - Superpower
    - Roost

    Stealth Rock and Sandstorm chip away at Dragonite extremely quickly. Once I switched in to Rotom-a, took a Shadow Ball, and KOed it. Dragonite had less than 20% HP afterwards. That's why I chose Roost over Extremespeed. If a weakened opponent had switched in after that Rotom-a KO and I used Extremespeed, Dragonite would die right there (with sandstorm).

    I chose Superpower over Earthquake because Flamethrower hits Jirachi and Metagross, and I can already KO Heatran, Lucario, Infernape, etc.

    I don't know what the standard is trying to do with 8 extra Speed EVs (200), and I checked the Speed Tiers and 192 Spd is enough to outspeed everything important. I bumped the Atk EVs up to 108 to OHKO Blissey with Superpower, which will happen according to the Smogon analysis.

    If I switch into Heatran locked into Earth Power or non Flash Fire Fire Blast, I'll use Draco Meteor to hit the switch-in hard. Heatran is annoying as it is, so I don't mind sacrificing Dragonite to kill it. What I mean is that, if CS Heatran switches in, I'll let it kill Dragonite with Dragon Pulse (or helplessly Fire Blast or explode, in which case I stay in), and I'll simply switch to Magnezone and trap it. If for some reason, I know that the Heatran is CS with Dragon Pulse, I won't stay in. I only stay in to scout or hope it overpredicts.

    Against Blissey, unless i know that it has Softboiled, I'll Flamethrower first and hope for the Protect to block Superpower. Once Blissey knows it's safe, I kill it. It often doesn't use Protect on the first turn, though.

    One time, against a sandstorm stall team, the opponent had a Shed Shell Skarmory, so Magnezone couldn't do its job. However, Dragonite, the great wallbreaker that he is, took down SkarmBliss with one hand and flipped off the opponent with the other by bringing Vaporeon down to 20%. From there, Suicune swept the remains. It was so satisfying.

    This Dragonite is less effective against offensive teams, since residual damage + real damage (even when resisted) wears it down too quickly. Against stall teams, Dragonite gets more opportunities to Roost and do some real damage.



    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Naive Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Explosion

    Oh boy. Thunderbolt does huge damage from Magnezone's monstrous Special Attack stat. Magnezone also outspeeds a lot of stuff, since Magnezone is not expected to be fast. Substitute is to have a little barrier after I kill Scizor or Forretress. Against Skarmory, I start with Thunderbolt to avoid Whirlwind. I could use Hidden Power Fire to OHKO Forretress and stop it from setting up too many hazards before it dies, but getting a Substitute up is usually worth it enough for the ugly 3HKO on Specially Defensive Forretress.

    The great thing is that Swampert will die to Hidden Power Grass when slightly weakened, and it can't even kill back with my Substitute. Magnezone usually doesn't make an appearance until a steel type needs to be trapped, and usually it gets a Substitute up.

    Scizor does about 13% with Bullet Punch, enough to 2HKO the Substitute. Because of this, if Scizor is at full health (2HKO), I do this: Substitute, Thunderbolt, Substitute, Thunderbolt. Scizor hits the sub while I attack, then breaks it while I re-sub. Then Scizor hits the sub while I kill it, ensuring that I have a Substitute up when Scizor is gone. Against opposing Blissey, I use Thunderbolt until it is weakened to about 70 - 75% while it breaks my Substitute. This lowers Blissey's guard, since my Thunderbolt is doing nothing. Then, when in KO range, I explode. If for some reason, Blissey isn't dead, I'll just kill it with anything else. Preferably Swampert or Jirachi, since Suicune is weak, Dragonite's moves will lower stats, Gengar only has 70% accuracy with Focus Blast, and Magnezone is dead.

    Once Scizor, Skarmory, Jirachi, etc. are gone, Magnezone is free to die. If a Flygon switches in when I don't have a sub up, I'll try to Thunderbolt the switch in after it uses U-Turn. Obviously it could use Earthquake, in which case Dragonite or Gengar get a free turn.



    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Suicune is incredibly difficult to stop once it sets up. Obviously there are Blissey and Snorlax, but every Pokemon has a nemesis. Not every team has a special wall, making Suicune incredibly ferocious. Suicune also serves as an important Gyarados counter, so the only thing that can do good damage after a DD is Bounce. Suicune can even kill weakened Vaporeon, or set up against Vaporeon without Toxic or Roar.

    CroCune isn't even the standard anymore. I really don't know why Brelooms still switch into Suicune. Maybe it's the Leftovers, but the standard item for offensive CM Suicune is Leftovers anyway. I just Ice Beam and get a free kill against an extremely annoying Pokemon.

    After a Calm Mind, Suicune is almost invincible. Only extremely boosted (like Specs) STAB Leaf Storm and Roserade can OHKO. Shaymin's Seed Flare, Celebi's Leaf Storm, and Jolteon's Thunderbolt do not OHKO. Even Starmie doesn't do much damage with Thunderbolt, while Suicune can OHKO back with Hidden Power Electric. Even without any defensive investment, Suicune is just too bulky to be allowed.

    Suicune is great early- and late- game, since it can lure and kill grass-types to ease up on Swampert. If grass-types, Jolteon, and special walls are severely weakened or gone, Suicune can just sweep. Weakened teams often cannot kill Suicune without many sacrifices. The main difference between Suicune and other set up sweepers is that Suicune can take a hit from a counter. If Lucario sets up Swords Dance early in the game, then Gengar and CS Jirachi and Gliscor just shut it down instantly. If Lucario can 2HKO something after SD, then good luck cause the opponent will just OHKO back. However, strong super effective attacks usually cannot bring down Suicune after a Calm Mind boost.

    Suicune can also find many chances to wreak havoc, such as against Heatran, Jirachi, Hippowdon, etc. Gliscor with Taunt are hit by Surf or Ice Beam, so they have to be careful before just throwing Taunt out there.

    If there is no sandstorm and Suicune has about 20% left (no status or Spikes) after setting up a Calm Mind and doing damage, I will often switch out if the opponent is faster (like Shaymin or Starmie). This is because it is so easy to find a good switch in to Suicune's checks and counters. Swampert takes Jolteon's attacks, while Jirachi can take Grass Knots like a boss (less than 10%) and Leaf Storms too, while threatening grass-types with U-Turn. Meanwhile, Suicune is fast enough to come back later and do some major damage or even clean up.



    @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Fire Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - U-Turn

    This is the most self-explanatory thing here. Iron Head for the flinch rate and STAB, Fire Punch for coverage. That's standard Jirachi.

    The Choice Scarf set, unless used as a lead, pretty much requires Ice Punch. It revenge kills DD Dragonite and Flygon locked into Outrage. It also does the most damage to Gliscor.

    Fire Punch OHKOs Lucario either after a Defense drop from Close Combat, or after a few rounds of Life Orb recoil. Sometimes I'll send out Magnezone to take a CC (if he is deadweight), then ensure a KO with Jirachi, else risk being swept. Jirachi is not the Lucario counter, however. Gengar is the first choice against Lucario, but often dies earlier from trying to punch holes. Even if Gengar makes it in, it has a 30% chance to miss Focus Blast and die to Crunch. Jirachi and Suicune can both revenge kill, but Jirachi is preferred as Suicune can be hit with Extremespeed or Jolly CC.

    Like all Jirachis, this set is walled by Heatran. However, Jirachi rarely stays in for more than 1 turn, so that's not too much of a problem. U-Turn makes this easier. U-Turn is also my first choice for combating Celebi.

    Choice Scarf Flygon wouldn't have too much trouble replacing Jirachi with Outrage/Earthquake/U-Turn/ThunderPunch. As mentioned in team building, Flygon benefits from the removal of steel-types, but Jirachi is less predictable, bulkier, and has a ton of resistances, while Flygon is another 4x weakness to ice and 2x to dragon.

    Threat List

    Show Hide

    Aerodactyl - Swampert Ice Beam, Suicune any move, Jirachi Iron Head.

    Azelf - Jirachi U-Turn or Iron Head, Gengar on predicted Explosion. Usually explodes at some point early in the match.

    Blissey - Gengar walls Toxic, Swampert walls Thunder Wave. Gengar behind a sub is almost untouchable, can be killed with Jirachi's Iron Head, Magnezone's Explosion, Dragonite's Superpower.

    Breloom - Swampert (preferably) takes Spore, Gengar and Dragonite can wall. Suicune is faster and can OHKO with Ice Beam, Magnezone is faster than Adamant Breloom and can Explode or KO weakened Breloom with Thunderbolt. Jirachi's Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Iron Head, Swampert's Ice Beam, Dragonite's Flamethrower, Gengar's Shadow Ball.

    Bronzong - Gengar walls EQ, Magnezone traps and walls Gyro Ball. Suicune can set up on those with both, Swampert walls but cannot return attacks.

    Celebi - Jirachi's U-Turn, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Gengar's Shadow Ball (resists grass), Dragonite against ones without HP Ice.

    Dragonite - Jirachi's Ice Punch against all variants, Suicune/Swampert's Ice Beam, Swampert can phaze.

    Dusknoir - Gengar's Shadow Ball, or worn down by Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Surf. Magnezone fears EQ.

    Electivire - Swampert against HP Ice, Dragonite against HP Grass. Without a Motor Drive boost, Gengar and Suicune can deal lots of damage.

    Empoleon - Swampert's EQ (fears Grass Knot), Gengar's Focus Blast, Suicune's Hidden Power, Magnezone's Thunderbolt, Dragonite's Superpower. SubPetaya loses to either Dragonite or Swampert/Suicune, depending on the moveset.

    Flygon - Choice Scarf is walled by Swampert, revenged by Jirachi when locked into Outrage. Suicune can KO, Gengar and Dragonite can both switch in to EQ and U-Turn.

    Forretress - Payback/Gyro Ball walled by Magnezone and trapped or Suicune/Swampert, EQ walled by Gengar and Dragonite.

    Gengar - Gengar with HP Fire are outsped by my Gengar, otherwise speed tie. Dragonite can break subs with Flamethrower and KO with Draco Meteor, Suicune and Jirachi are bulky enough to take hits and Jirachi can revenge kill.

    Gliscor - Hit hard by Swampert's Ice Beam, walled by Gengar. Dragonite can do a lot of damage with Draco Meteor, Suicune can hit with STAB Surf or Ice Beam. SD Variants can be phazed with Swampert or revenge killed by Jirachi.

    Gyarados - Countered by Suicune's Hidden Power Electric. Dragonite can do a lot of damage with Draco Meteor, Gengar with Shadow Ball, and Swampert can phaze Gyarados without Taunt. Magnezone can beat Gyarados from behind a sub, or those without EQ.

    Heatran - Swampert and Suicune can wall, Magnezone beats Heatran locked into Dragon Pulse, Dragonite beats Heatran locked into Earth Power or Fire Blast. Gengar against Earth Power.

    Hippowdon - Hit by Swampert's Ice Beam, Curse set is phazed. Gengar walls but is phazed, Dragonite can do a lot of damage with Draco Meteor. Magnezone can kill off weakened ones with Hidden Power Grass or Explosion. Suicune can use Surf.

    Infernape - Gengar, Suicune, Dragonite, and Swampert OHKO with STAB. Magnezone behind a substitute can use Thunderbolt, Jirachi can try to flinch it to death.

    Jirachi - Choice Scarf can be set up on by Suicune or trapped by Magnezone. Gengar does around 45 - 50%, near a 2HKO. Dragonite can hit with Flamethrower. Swampert's EQ and Roar against CM variants.

    Jolteon - KOed by Suicune near full health after a Calm Mind, will lose a lot of HP though. Dragonite can KO while fearing HP Ice, Swampert walls those without HP Grass. Jirachi can U-Turn for some damage or try to flinch it to death with Iron Head. Magnezone walls all attacks, can do damage with Hidden Power or Explode.

    Kingdra - Swampert can phaze, Magnezone can attack with Thunderbolt or Explode, Suicune can whittle it down with Ice Beam, Gengar can attack with Shadow Ball. Jirachi can try to flinch it to death with Iron Head.

    Lucario - Jirachi and Suicune can revenge kill SD Lucario (Suicune cannot if it is Jolly), Gengar beats SD Lucario without Bullet Punch. Dragonite at good health beats those without Stone Edge or Ice Punch. Agility Lucario is beaten by Jirachi and Suicune.

    Machamp - Swampert outspeeds it in the lead slot, Gengar can switch in to DynamicPunch and KO weakened ones, doing about 40 - 50%. Dragonite does about 70 - 85% with Draco Meteor, Jirachi can try to flinch it to death.

    Magnezone - Dragonite can kill those without HP Ice. Gengar can revenge kill with Focus Blast. Swampert beats those without HP Grass. Suicune can KO with a Calm Mind boost. Magnezone can trap CS Magnezone locked into Flash Cannon, HP Ice, or HP Grass and slowly bring it down with Thunderbolt.

    Mamoswine - Locked into EQ, I can switch in Dragonite or Gengar. Suicune can set up, Jirachi can use Iron Head or Fire Punch.

    Metagross - Suicune can set up unless it Explodes, Dragonite can use Flamethrower, Magnezone can trap and kill weakened Metagross, Swampert walls pretty well and can use EQ. Jirachi can revenge kill Agility variants, Suicune can take hits and weaken, especially those without Thunderbolt. Swampert can phaze Agiligross and hit it with Earthquake.

    Ninjask - Swampert can phaze, Gengar has a 4x resistance to X-Scissor. Dragonite resists X-Scissor and can hit with Flamethrower, Jirachi can outspeed before a Speed Boost. Suicune and Magnezone can also keep Ninjask under pressure, while Magnezone can set up a Substitute and Explode on the switch-in.

    Roserade - Gengar outspeeds and resists grass, Dragonite beats those without HP Ice, Magnezone beats those without HP Fire, Suicune can KO with a CM boost and is not KOed in return, Jirachi can kill with any move except U-Turn.

    Rotom-a - Magnezone walls its STABs, but cannot do a lot of damage in return. A filler move can hit Magnezone for a lot of damage. Suicune can kill during a sweep, Dragonite can KO with Draco Meteor. Gengar can KO non Choice Scarf variants, and Swampert can Roar it, but fears a burn.

    Scizor - Lured by Gengar and trapped by Magnezone. Doesn't do too much damage to Swampert, and is hit by Earthquake. Dragonite and Jirachi have fire moves.

    Shaymin - Jirachi's moves can hit it for a lot of damage, Gengar can Substitute against Leech Seed and isn't KOed by Seed Flare. Dragonite walls those without HP Ice, and can Roost against Leech Seed. Suicune usually outspeeds and can KO during a sweep with a CM boost.

    Swampert - Hit hard by Dragonite, Gengar, and +1 Suicune, and Magnezone can do a lot of damage with HP Grass and can 2HKO from behind a sub. Swampert can phaze CursePert.

    Tentacruel - Hit hard by Magnezone, Dragonite, and Gengar. Suicune can set up against it, but needs a lot of boosts to be doing a lot of damage. Swampert can hit with EQ, but fears Toxic Spikes so it's best to switch in as early as possible.

    Togekiss - Hit hard by Gengar's Focus Blast, and Dragonite's Superpower and Draco Meteor. Magnezone fears Aura Sphere, but variants with less speed can be hit with Thunderbolt. Suicune with a CM boost can do a lot of damage with Ice Beam. Jirachi can hit with Ice Punch or Iron Head. Swampert works well against the Paraflinch set with Thunder Wave, Swampert can Roar to rack up Stealth Rock damage.

    Tyranitar - OHKOed by Dragonite's Superpower, Gengar's Focus Blast. Hit extremely hard by Jirachi's Iron Head, and good damage with U-Turn as well. Suicune can kill it after setting up, and Swampert doesn't take much damage while it can phaze DD sets or hit with Earthquake.

    Umbreon - Swampert can Roar it, Dragonite's Superpower and Draco Meteor, Magnezone can Explode or hit with Thunderbolt, Jirachi can use U-Turn to escape Mean Look with a super effective hit.

    Vaporeon - KOed by Dragonite's Draco Meteor + Superpower. Gengar can do reasonable damage with Shadow Ball. Magnezone hits for a ton of damage, while Suicune can set up against Vaporeon without Toxic or Roar.

    Weavile - Swampert doesn't take a lot of damage and can hit it with Earthquake or Roar for Stealth Rock damage. Gengar behind a Substitute can KO with Focus Blast. Jirachi can hit with Fire Punch, Iron Head, and U-Turn. Suicune KOs after setting up.

    Zapdos - Suicune KOs after setting up, and usually outspeeds it anyway so a 2HKO is fine. Swampert walls those without HP Grass and can Roar or use Ice Beam (or EQ while Zapdos uses Roost), and Magnezone walls those without Heat Wave. Gengar does good damage, but is KOed without a sub up. Dragonite can do a lot of damage with Draco Meteor.

    I've always wanted to add a Kingdra, but I figure that either Suicune is the one to leave, or I'll have to replace Swampert while Jirachi becomes the lead (I hate Jirachi leads). I think I would want a Scizor to accompany Kingdra, which would drastically change the entire team. I could compromise and just get a dragon-type (Flygon) and replace Jirachi, and although Flygon is very good, he requires way too much prediction to use, and inconsistency is what I hate the most.

    Speaking of which, notice how only 2 moves on this entire team have less than perfect accuracy.

    Please give comments or suggestions!

  2. TomX159


    May 1, 2012
    Hey, I really like this team. Swampert actually is a really good lead, he's probably my second favorite lead after Metagross so I think you should keep him :3

    I'd really like to see that Kingdra in Suicune's place. I think a specially offensive set similar to Suicune's will be a very nasty surprise. Although you lose the Calm Mind power, Kingdra's boosted speed can be just as good (and it still rapes Brelooms :p). I'd go with...

    Kingdra @ Leftovers
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 164 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Rain Dance

    The EV's are pulled from the site. 164 EVs outspeeds Jolly Scarf base 100's in rain but you can put in more speed to outspeed base 85's outside of rain if you'd like. Max SpAtk and the extra EVs are thrown into HP/SpDef. I'd suggest Leftovers to give it a little bit more survivability but you can put on whatever you'd like. If you keep Kingdra hidden, Rain Dance is really nice on this set. Since sand is the only real weather they'll be more likely to death fodder their weather inducer early/mid game seeing as you don't show the signs of having a rain team. After that Kingdra can come in and set up the rain so that Dragonite doesn't take sand+Life Orb.

    Speaking of Dragonite, after some thought I think that Outrage or Dragon Claw should replace Draco Meteor (especially if you decide to use Kingdra with Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor) because I'd like to see Dragonite stay in for a few more turns to sweep. It seems like he has to switch out a lot after going -2 from a Draco Meteor/ -1 from Superpower forcing him to take more Stealth Rock damage later. I prefer Outrage but you have to make sure you're safe to do so preferably late game when things are weak. I think it's okay though since you do have Magnezone to get rid of the steels. If you're weary on locking yourself into Outrage you can choose Dragon Claw but I'd recommend that you replace Roost with Dragon Dance for that route.

    That's all I've got. Good luck!
  3. Smiles


    Oct 18, 2010
    Thanks, Swampert is indeed very good. I've actually had tons of matches decided by my overuse of Roar, even when the opponent isn't setting up. Swampert + Jirachi + Gengar defeats Flygon pretty well too.

    And thanks for suggesting a Kingdra set. I've been using this team for a while and the main reason I wasn't using Kingdra yet was because I couldn't decide on a set, and which team member to replace. The obvious replacement was Suicune because of the redundant water-typing, but Suicune is very useful and has swept teams before. Replacing Suicune, my Gyarados counter, requires me to run ThunderPunch on Jirachi over U-Turn, something I'd rather not do. U-Turn is my first answer to grass-types, especially Celebi, so I'd hate to lose that. Kingdra doesn't work as a Gyarados counter even with HP Electric, since +1 Bounce OHKOs it.

    I've used a Mixed Rain Dance Kingdra in a previous team long ago, and that thing is way too underrated. The only real difference of a Special set, i believe, is that it can't KO Blissey, which Suicune couldn't do anyway.

    Anyway, if Jirachi gets ThunderPunch over U-Turn, prediction becomes a bit troubling. Instead of using U-Turn against Celebi or Shaymin, I have to use Fire Punch or Ice Punch, which would not release Jirachi from Leech Seed. A Shaymin with Earth Power, Seed Flare, and HP Ice could be trouble.

    I do think that this could definitely make the team better, I'll test it tomorrow and see if all I said is actually worth worrying about. Thanks again! :)

    Edit: isn't that the moveset for BW UU? The DP OU Special Rain Dance set is a lot more straightforward and uses a few different moves.
  4. Smiles


    Oct 18, 2010
    And I thought Suicune was awesome, this team is officially 2Drag1Mag.

    Kingdra (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rain Dance
    - Surf
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Signal Beam / Hidden Power [Electric]

    That's my current Kingdra. The only change to the rest of the team is that Jirachi now has ThunderPunch in place of U-Turn.
    So far, Jirachi has never killed a Gyarados yet, or even used ThunderPunch effectively. However, theoretically, I have no reliable Gyarados counter without it. U-Turn has been needed at times, but I think ThunderPunch is the safer way to go.


    Kingdra is awesome. I miss using dramatic set up sweepers like that, and I haven't faced a Blissey yet, which is weird. The rest of my team can deal with Blissey, which is good enough for Kingdra. Suicune could never beat Blissey anyway, and Kingdra hits harder with Surf. I don't plan to use Hydro Pump, since Surf is the main move in this set, and it's not good to mess with reliability.

    Jirachi suddenly feels different. Instead of being the go-to Pokemon on blind switches and being a great pivot, he is now a pure revenge killer. Prediction plays a larger role in my strategy now, which I tend to dislike. However, that comes with having such a strong sweeper in the midst.

    If the opponent lacks Blissey or an auto weather-inducer, the only way to stop Kingdra is hits between 2HKOs. I chose Signal Beam to hit grass types, especially Celebi and Abomasnow, but Gyarados have caused some trouble so I might consider Hidden Power Electric.

    And if I know the opponent has Hippowdon or Tyranitar, I could start with a Surf before throwing out Rain Dance. I could also catch a Heatran or Flygon switching in, hoping for a Dragon Dance.

    Kingdra has pulled off many sweeps, and even KOed an opposing Kingdra in a Rain Dance teams. Rain Dance helped against a hail team, whose Abomasnow had died, by keeping my Pokemon healthy and just shutting down Walrein.

    I even killed an opposing Kingdra in a Rain Dance team, something I used to struggle with.
  5. Alfalfa


    Aug 31, 2012
    I see more reason to give Swampert Avalanche than Ice Beam, if he is going to go Relaxed Nature.
  6. TomX159


    May 1, 2012
    lol whooooooops xD

    yeah still have the BW list bookmarked instead of the DPP one and just typed Kingdra at the end of the address lol

    Looking at the DPP set it looks deadly. I think I've only seen Signal Beam on one Kingdra before and I raged when it killed my Celebi xD

    When it comes to taking U-Turn off of Jirachi, it might not be such a bad thing. I find that when I have U-Turn on Jirachi I tend to just play it safe instead of play aggressive and even though I'd get switch advantage, I'd miss out on some solid damage.

    Hope the best of luck to you!

    ehh Avalanche has a -4 priority and needs the opponent to attack you in order to double the power. Ice Beam is usually better for a dedicated lead because it counters Gliscor easier and I see a lot of Dragonites coming in trying to Dragon Dance a bunch because a lot of Swamperts run Waterfall/Surf and Earthquake opposed to Ice beam and an unboosted Avalanche won't OHKO after Stealth Rock like Ice Beam would. Avalanche is a great move for a Banded or Curse set but it's kinda a hit-or-miss move for a bulky lead and Ice Beam is usually more reliable.
  7. Smiles


    Oct 18, 2010
  8. LizardMan

    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Aug 20, 2008
    I only have time for nitpicks, but these should make your team immediatly better.

    Run Ice Punch on Swampert, run an Impish nature, and put the speed into special defense. You aren't weak to Gliscor by any means, and Ice Punch hits everything else 2% harder on average. You still hit Gliscor hard too. The special defense is beyond useful. It helps with Rotom-w, CM Jirachi, Mix Dragonite, and Heatran.

    You can run Leftovers on Gengar to check Shaymin better. I have a very similar team to this, and it works wonders. Your team has more than enough firepower.

    I also reccomend Trick on Jirachi to mess with Heatran, Shed Shell Skarmory, Gliscor, or stopping pokemon like Crocune. It can also prevent sweepers from sweeping you, so losing a Punch isn't a huge deal.

    You could even lead with Jirachi to get the jump on Azelf. Personally up to you.

    Cool team and good luck.
  9. Smiles


    Oct 18, 2010
    I could run Ice Punch on Swampert, and the speed EVs are only for Blissey and Machamp. And I see your point, if I run Impish I could just run 0 EVs and get more speed. Other than to Taunt, Gliscor often expect Ice Beam and switch out anyway. In that case, I can add to Special Defense no problem.

    The only reason I wasn't already doing this is because it never occurred to me that Swampert learned Ice Punch. Silly me -.-

    I'm not sure about running Leftovers on Gengar, since right now neutral hits are very strong. For example, about 50%+ to Jirachi with no HP, a possible 2HKO and guaranteed after other damage. Gengar can also hit Hippowdon and Gliscor very hard. Life Orb also helps to Pain Split and hit Blissey a bit harder.
    Plus, Shaymin with Leftovers isn't 3HKOed when I have Leftovers, so I'm not sure how that helps me check Shaymin in terms of dealing damage. Right now Pain Split is enough for maintaining enough HP, and Shaymin often switch out anyway so I can get a Sub up. Gengar take Hidden Powers and Seed Flares no problem.

    I completely agree with running Trick on Jirachi, but every single Punch has an important use. If I could switch, I would. Ever since i changed Suicune to Kingdra, I don't have a Gyarados counter and ThunderPunch is the only way I can stop a sweep (Swampert can Roar, but Gyara can Taunt or come back later).
    Ice Punch obviously to stop Dragonite sweeps, and Fire Punch to stop Lucario and to hit Forretress or Scizor late game if Magnezone gets baited and ends up dying. Also to stop Agiligross sweeps when they have low HP.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll consider the 2nd two, but the only one I'm definitely changing will be Swampert.

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