1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Honchkrow (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Tobes, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    [​IMG]
    http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/honchkrow
    QC Approved: PK Gaming, Oglemi, Chou Toshio
    GP Approved: sirndpt, New World Order

    [Overview]

    <p>After spending a lengthy sentence in the DPP Borderline Correctional Institution, and despite the disgrace of now being RU, Honchkrow has returned to rule the streets of BW UU. The mob boss crow has maintained plenty of its swagger, and its Moxie can be downright intimidating. Honckrow still wields a brutally powerful STAB Brave Bird and one of the strongest priority moves in the game, Sucker Punch. Moxie makes Honchkrow an even more threatening sweeper and wallbreaker than before, but Honchkrow has the option of trading this excellent ability for Heat Wave and Superpower in order to dismantle its usual counters. Its middling Speed, as well as its susceptibility to Stealth Rock and recoil damage make it difficult to use, but Honchkrow provides devastating results for those who can handle it.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Moxie
    move 1: Substitute / Taunt
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Brave Bird
    move 4: Sucker Punch
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moxie has changed Honchkrow drastically, allowing it to sweep through a weakened team, shred walls with Brave Bird, and KO most revenge killers before they can move with a boosted Sucker Punch. Substitute eases prediction for Honchkrow, and also prevents status, which would otherwise severely hamper its ability to sweep. Taunt is also an option for blocking most status moves short of Scald, as well as preventing walls from healing off any damage Honchkrow has dealt to them. Roost keeps Honchkrow healthy, prolonging its sweep and preventing recoil from Life Orb and Brave Bird from eating away at it too quickly.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Honchkrow wants all the power it can get, so an Adamant nature and maximum Attack investment are used in conjunction with a Life Orb. The Speed EVs allow Honchkrow to outpace base 100 Speed Pokemon that themselves have no Speed investment. The few remaining EVs are placed in HP to help mitigate recoil damage. Honchkrow has the option of maxing out HP, giving it a total of 404, which allows for 101 HP Substitutes that cannot be broken by one Seismic Toss or Night Shade; this also slightly mitigates recoil damage. However, Honchkrow functions best when it can move before walls, so it generally appreciates the Speed investment more than 101 HP Substitutes. Pursuit is an option on this set to eliminate a crippled Pokemon, guaranteeing the first Moxie boost, which can easily spiral into a full sweep.</p>

    <p>Honchkrow definitely wants entry hazard support to score KOs and abuse Moxie. Spikes users are abundant in UU, with the main users being Roserade and Froslass. Stealth Rock is also greatly appreciated. Since Honchkrow is itself weak to Stealth Rock and is quickly worn down by recoil damage, it also benefits from Rapid Spin support. Hitmontop and Donphan are both excellent options here. It is also important to note that Honckrow is completely walled by most Steel-types, so Magneton is a useful partner for trapping them.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Sweeper
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Night Slash / Drill Peck
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Superpower / Heat Wave
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie / Insomnia
    nature: Naughty / Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Honchkrow has a myriad of wallbreaking moves, which allow it to catch its usual counters off-guard. Brave Bird and Sucker Punch are still the main STAB moves, but Night Slash is also used to give Honchkrow a more reliable Dark-type STAB. Drill Peck can come in handy when Honckrow is low on health and can't afford to use Brave Bird. Hidden Power Grass nails Rhyperior, Quaigsire, and Donphan. Honchkrow also has the option of using Heat Wave or Superpower to dismantle Steel-types, but both moves come at the cost of sacrificing Moxie, relegating Honchkrow to more of a wallbreaking role.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set focuses on maximizing Honchkrow's offensive prowess, and the EV spread, nature, and item choice reflect this. Insomnia is the ability of choice if a move that is illegal with Moxie—specifically Superpower or Heat Wave—is being used, which allows Honchkrow to ignore Sleep Powders thrown its way. Super Luck is still an option though, and, in conjunction with the high critical hit rate of Night Slash, has a decent chance of dramatically strengthening Honchkrow. Roost and Pursuit enable Honchkrow to take advantage of predicted switches, although Moxie variants make much better use of Pursuit. Taunt is also an option for shutting down walls, allowing Honchkrow to fulfill the role of a wallbreaker more effectively.</p>

    <p>This set aims to soften up defensive cores, so entry hazard support is important for whittling down walls switching into Honchkrow. Paralysis support is also recommended, allowing Honchkrow to make better use of Brave Bird and its coverage moves. Ferroseed can use both Spikes and Thunder Wave to support Honchkrow. As this set also switches frequently, Rapid Spin or Wish support is appreciated as well. Donphan can use both Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock, while Chansey can pass huge Wishes that heal Honchkrow almost completely. Swellow benefits from Honchkrow's presence too, since it can sweep much more easily late-game after Honchkrow has softened up the opponent's walls.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Night Slash / Sucker Punch
    move 3: Drill Peck
    move 4: Pursuit / Superpower
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Band
    ability: Moxie / Insomnia
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Honchkrow can utilize a Choice item quite effectively. A Choice Band-boosted Brave Bird hits ridiculously hard, while a Choice Scarf set is perfect for a Moxie-boosted late-game sweep. Night Slash is Honchkrow's most consistent Dark STAB move, and is preferred on a Choice set where Honchkrow does not have the option of playing mind games with its foes. Sucker Punch is still useful for revenge killing a fast sweeper, but it is much less useful on the Choice Scarf set than on the Choice Band one. Drill Peck is auxiliary STAB, which is useful when Honchkrow is too low on health to risk using Brave Bird. Pursuit traps and finishes off a weakened opponent, but Superpower can be used to nail Steel- and Rock-types, at the cost of Moxie.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is standard fare for a Choice Pokemon. The nature of choice depends on several factors: the Choice Scarf set greatly appreciates the power provided by an Adamant nature, but can also make use of Jolly to outspeed Pokemon such as Jolteon. Similarly, the Choice Band set enjoys the power boost of an Adamant nature, but can also take advantage of a Jolly nature to outpace fast walls or slow sweepers. Roost can be used on this set to take advantage of a predicted switch, but there are obvious risks that come with locking a Pokemon into a recovery move.</p>

    <p>Entry hazards are essential for the Choice Scarf set, since it's looking to clean up a weakened team. They are also important for the Choice Band set since they help to wear down walls that can take a Brave Bird. For example, Stealth Rock allows Jolly Choice Band Honchkrow to almost always 2HKO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Suicune. Rapid Spin support is valued since Honchkrow is easily forced out while locked into a move. Hitmontop threatens Steel- and Rock-types while also removing the opponent's Stealth Rock, making life much easier for Honchkrow. Choice Band Crobat makes a good partner for the Choice Scarf set, opening up holes for Honchkrow to abuse later. On the other hand, Choice Band Honchkrow can break walls itself, allowing a Toxic Orb Swellow to clean up.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Honchkrow has a decent Special Attack stat and access to Nasty Plot, but due to its low Speed, it is generally outclassed by other Nasty Plot sweepers, such as Azelf. Thunder Wave can be used to disable quicker switch-ins, allowing Honchkrow to dispatch them before they can move, while Toxic cripples walls, but does nothing against the Steel-types that already wall Honchkrow. Tailwind is an excellent form of support for both Honchkrow and its teammates, but comes at the cost of Moxie. Haze can remove boosts from tanks such as Calm Mind Suicune. Perish Song wrecks Baton Pass teams, and also becomes a win condition when used on the opponent's last Pokemon.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Steel-types in general make things difficult for Honchkrow; they wall it completely if Honchkrow does not give up Moxie for access to its coverage moves. Registeel, Empoleon, and Steelix all provide serious challenges to Honchkrow. Bulky Rock-types such as Rhyperior also check Honchkrow, but they need to watch out for Hidden Power Grass. Electric-type Pokemon can also handle Honchkrow to an extent. Zapdos is the best choice for this job; Raikou works as well since it survives a Life Orb-boosted Adamant Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock, and can even avoid Sucker Punch altogether with Substitute. If Honchkrow manages to amass Moxie boosts, it can become very difficult to stop, so the best way to deal with it is to wear it down with recoil. Stealth Rock is crucial here, but other methods of passive damage, such as sand, poison, or even Ferroseed's Iron Barbs, all help. Walls with high HP, such as Suicune and Chansey, also help to whittle down Honchkrow's health thanks to the large amount of recoil Honchkrow will take from Brave Bird.</p>
  2. Foxy Grandpa

    Foxy Grandpa

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    In my personal experience Honchkrow NEEDS Superpower because without it it can't even hope to touch Registeel. Imo it should be Super Luck primarily with Superpower but I'll leave it up to QC
  3. pie cream

    pie cream

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    241
    maybe mention wish suport?
  4. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,163
    super luck? seriously? no mention of insomnia at all?

    It allows you to keep superpower and at the same time giggle at roserade's sleep powders.

    I'm not sure if you can lump together band and scarf that easily, either.

    Subroost just looks.. bad.
  5. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,136
    Remove Super Luck and add Insomnia. Insomnia is way better.

    And yeah, I don't like SubRoost either.
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    • Naughty should get the main nature slash as a result of HP Grass being main slash on the 4th move slot.
    • Insomnia should replace Super Luck on all sets (mention Super Luck in AC on all sets)
    • Mention physically defensive Zapdos as a counter and faster electric like Raikou, Jolteon and offensive Zapdos as checks.
    You guys are crazy, the SubRoost set is ridiculously good.
    (Why doesn't this thing get U-turn...)

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    Heh. Actually, Honchkrow clean OHKOs Jolteon at full health with LO Sucker Punch. Zapdos and Raikou, however, barely dodge the OHKO after SR.
  8. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Max Speed on the SubRoost set is very useful to set up on shit like Defensive Roserade, Celebi, and Deoxys-D. It also lets you 2HKO shit like Suicune on the switch before they can move, so yeah, I'd actually go as far as saying its better than max HP.

    Either that, or really emphasize paralysis support. Though Roserade and Celebi have Natural cure anyway so idk... max Speed is just better.

    EDIT: Just saw the two comments about SubRoost being bad... lol, its better than the first set.
  9. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,136
    I didn't say it was bad, I just didn't liked the look of it, but if it works with Braviary (though he doesn't have Roost so it's not really the same. If he had Roost, he could have done about the same thing) it should work even better with Honchkrow.

    I hope you understand what I'm saying, because I don't want some stupid reply about how Braviary doesn't have Roost and blahblahblah.
  10. Snunch

    Snunch
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnuswon the 8th Official Smogon Tournament

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,074
    Honchkrow NEEDS to outrun walls in order to do its job, and if youre worried about prediction wars with Chansey / Dusclops / Deoxys-D / whatever then use Taunt. Anything other than adamant with Brave Bird is not acceptable for Honchkrow as this leaves it walled by almost every basic defensive tank in the meta. Sucker Punch is essential for Honchkrow, Night Slash should never be considered.

    Make the above set the first set listed. It is easily the most threatening set Honchkrow can run.
  11. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,163
    what exactly is running max speed doing? you outspeed nothing useful, as far as I see. it'd be better to run something like 20 HP / 252 Attack / 236 Spe (which outspeeds min base 100s) Adamant; this can be further lessened to outspeed stuff like min rotom-H, min suicune, etc.
  12. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,611
    Yeah Breludicolo's EV spread seems fine

    [​IMG]

    QC 2/3
  13. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,210
    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED (3/3)

    GO TOBES!!
  14. sirndpt

    sirndpt
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,124
    remove add comments

    GP 1/2

    [​IMG]
  15. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,153
    Add
    Remove
    Comment
    GP Approved (2/2)

    [​IMG]
  16. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,611
    uploaded

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)