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How to Play (and win) with Gimmicks

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by TAY, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Nov 7, 2007
    Over the course of talking about the DPP metagame with people, I have brought up on several occasions the fact that Diamond / Pearl is all about gimmicks. In general, the player who can best execute their gimmicks will usually be the winner. But doing this well requires a fair deal of skill, and hence I have made this thread to discuss the best ways to get people to fall for your tricks.

    Now when I say "gimmicks", I am not referring to random stupid sets like SD Roserade or Magnet Rise Lucario or any kind of Shedinja. By "gimmicks" I mean little tricks you can throw into your team to help deal with a certain threat(s). These can come in the form of non-standard movesets, abilities, items, or EV Spreads.

    So, for the porpoises of this thread, "gimmick" is defined as: "A non-standard moveset, ability, item, or EV spread which is designed to deal with a specific threat or set of threats". Please do not argue semantics in this thread; your opinion on the definition of gimmick is wholly irrelevant.

    Why Use a Gimmick?

    In general, the only reason to use a gimmick is to help your team deal with a certain threat. Breaking this description down into offensive and defensive components can be done, but that ignores the fact that your offensive and defensive goals are generally the same thing. Consider this set:

    Metagross @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 204 Atk/252 Spd/52 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    This set may seem odd, but with proper play it can easily eliminate the opponent's Scizor, Forretress, Swampert, and other bulky Waters and Grounds, and still be a useful check against Latias and Salamence and a number of other things. And the beauty of it is that none of those Pokemon ever switch out of Metagross on a regular basis, which is, of course, why Metagross was chosen for the job. This set is useful if your team has trouble dealing with any of the above mentioned Pokemon, and is functional outside of that as well. However, note that gimmicks should be used only to deal with a specific threat or set of threats and should be custom made for your team. You must know what you need to eliminate, and how to draw it out.

    Gimmicks are useful because they provide a way to "trap" Pokemon which can not be trapped by any conventional means, using Pokemon with no trapping ability or Pursuit. I would say that gimmicks are probably 90% as effect as a conventional trapper, and the freedom in Pokemon selection more than makes up for that 10%.

    Selecting & Creating a Gimmick

    In order to create a usable gimmick, you must have experience using your team. This may seem obvious to some people, but there is no substitute for experience gained through testing your team (still, as an RMT forum mod I am sure that people will ignore this). After testing your team out for some time, you will find that either: A.) Your team can deal with most common threats, or B.) Your team has trouble with one or more common threats. In case A, you obviously have nothing to worry about, but with case B — which accounts for the vast majority of situations — you will have some fixing to do.

    The first question you must ask yourself is what Pokemon does my team have trouble with? This should be obvious after testing. Note that if too many common threats cause trouble for your team, a gimmick will not solve it; you will obviously need to completely rework your team (not post it in the RMT forum).

    The next question you should ask is what Pokemon on my team will this threat never switch out of? While it is extremely helpful if the threat also switches into the member of your team, the gimmick will still be effective as long as the threat is not likely to switch out. It is very possible that there will be more than one Pokemon on your team which the threat will not switch out against; simply choose the one you feel will work out best (and you can obviously switch later).

    Now that you have selected a Pokemon on your own team to be changed, you must look at what options it has to deal with the threat. Do not discount any options, no matter how odd they may seem on that particular Pokemon. Toxic, Hidden Power, Outrage, Mach Punch, Payback, even Shockwave — all these and more are your options against the target foe. If you need to EV it to survive a hit from the threat, then do so. If this is not an option, or if it has a significant negative impact on your Pokemon, then a type resisting berry may be in order. Probably the most important thing I can impart to you is that the type resisting berries are extremely powerful. This is especially the case against offensive teams, which often rely on revenge kills and fragile sweepers in order to defeat their opponents.

    Finally, you must make your Pokemon useful, besides just dealing with the threat. If you need to stop Gyarados, you could probably manipulate any Pokemon on your team to stop it even after a Dragon Dance; the tricky part is creating a gimmick which has other applications as well. To take an extreme example, if your team has Breloom and Metagross as potential candidates for dealing with Gyarados, then it would be a much wiser decision to use Shuca Metagross than Yache Breloom, since the Shuca Berry will also aid Metagross against Salamence, Tyranitar, Metagross, and other high-level threats, whereas Yache Berry will only help Breloom against the Bulky Waters that it can easily switch into anyway, and it will take away the activation of Breloom’s Poison Heal.

    Making your Gimmick Work

    This is probably the most difficult part of using gimmicks, and it is the reason that so many people steer away from non-standard movesets and items and such altogether. In order to make your gimmicks work, you must be able to create a situation in which your opponent suspects that nothing is wrong, and you must be able to do it in a vast number of situations. If your opponent switches out of the gimmick, then he likely will see (or has already guess) whatever trick you are using. So, as a frequent user of these “trick sets”, I have some words of advice for all of you!
    • Scout and predict your opponent's team. U-Turn, Whirlwind, and anything that is generally threatening will cause your opponent to switch, and you can quickly learn what their likely plays will be.
    • Double switches are your best friend. Once you have a decent idea of your opponent's team, try to get them to switch into the particular Pokemon which your gimmick is prepared for. For example, if my opponent is using Scizor, I will send out Latias to lure it out, and then double switch to the Metagross I mentioned earlier.
    • Only let your opponent know what you want them to know. If your Pokemon is using Expert Belt, spam the same move over and over to bluff choice scarf. Even if your Latias runs surf, spam only Dragon Pulse to make the opponent think that Steels are a safe switch-in (obviously if you have an opportunity to take something out then do it; but if there isn't a lot to be gained from using Surf there is no point in revealing it). This will help you predict your opponent's switches.
    • Try to make yourself appear desperate. This is mainly for if you are using a Resist Berry gimmick, but it has other applications as well. If it appears that you are grasping for straws, your opponent will likely play recklessly - so far not a single person has switched their +1 DD Gyarados or their Specs Lati@s out of my Passho Berry Claydol.
    • Explosion is helpful. People will likely not suspect an Expert Belt Metagross or Jirachi to be sent out after a double-KO, and they will play recklessly. Use this to your advantage.
    • Be patient. You absolutely cannot force your gimmicks. Switching a gimmick directly into its target is generally a bad idea (though it sometimes works), and if your opponent is playing cautiously, don't be afraid to spend several turns maneuvering them right into the place you want them.
    Some Fun Gimmicks I Have Used

    In addition to the previously mentioned Expert Belt Metagross, here are some of my favorite gimmick sets to get everyone on the right track:
    • Sub / Toxic Heatran: Used to stop Gyarados and bulky Waters, I originally paired this with Suicune. Suicune would stall out Gyarados as it took poison damage, and would then be able to set up on enemy Vaporeon.
    • Expert Belt Jirachi: Most people assume scarf when they see Iron Hean, and will send out either a Water- or Steel-type Pokemon. Well, I am ready for them with an Expert Belt Grass Knot or Fire Punch! Pairs well with Tyranitar to deal with Rotom and Heatran.
    • Passho Berry Lead Claydol: I use this on a team which has a heavy Gyarados weakness. Needs to be paired to Tyranitar to stop Rotom switch-ins, but it makes a fantastic OU lead.
    • Babiri Berry DD Tyranitar: Protip: +1 Tyranitar OHKOes Scizor with Stone Edge. If you're uncomfortable with that, you can use Fire Punch. Also helps against Metagross.
    So discuss: How do you think gimmicks fit into the DPP metagame? What successful gimmicks have you seen used, and what made them successful? What suggestions do you have for people using gimmick Pokemon?


    Once again, I ask that this not turn into a "definition of gimmick" thread. This also is not the place to simply list all your weird sets - there is already a thread for that.
  2. Thorns


    Feb 17, 2007
    itt TAY shamelessly plugs lead Claydol.
    To gimmick users: Never use something if it is outclassed, unless it beats something it's not usually meant to. And don't use gimmicks for that sole purpose. If you manage to create a Tyranitar that beats Swampert, make sure it can sweep even when Swampert isn't there!

    Good thread, and let's not turn it into the crapfest that is Specs Dugtrio
  3. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Exclamation point, you were explicitly asked to not try and redefine a gimmick.

    Anyways, the problem most people have with gimmicks is that quite often once your element of surprise is blown, it is no longer effective. This is counter productive on the ladder when you quite often battle the same players over and over again. So, some gimmicks are better than others, such as that subtran always being able to toxic the opposing bulky water or expert belt jirachi still having good coverage. Both of these work better than that metagross imo. Steel resist berry tyranitar does sound intriguing though.
  4. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Nov 7, 2007
    Please please please please please guys stop trying to redefine gimmmick. You can use the word however you want outside of this thread, but for the purposes of this thread I defined it near the top of my post. Do Not argue based on the definition of "gimmick". In this thread, it is simply a shorter way of saying "A non-standard moveset, ability, item, or EV spread which is designed to deal with a specific threat or set of threats".
  5. Tangerine

    Tangerine Where the Lights Are
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    May 4, 2007
    This is a warning - read the OP and the framework defined within it before attempting to contribute to this thread. You're not really discussing anything otherwise but flaunting your opinions when no one cares.

  6. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Level 2
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 11, 2008
    Does this mean that a gimmick set, when it becomes a standard set, is no longer a gimmick set? I'm not trying to argue with the definition. What captured my attention is that the Sub / Toxic Heatran has become very popular and has gained mentioned on analysis - it has become a standard set.

    The same could be said for other "gimmicks" like Scarf Lead Mewtwo in Ubers - it was designed to take down lead Scarf Darkrai and Deoxys-E - it is currently one of the most popular, if not the most, Mewtwo sets.
  7. Objection


    Sep 27, 2008
    The best gimmick I ever used was Passho Berry Camerupt with HP Grass. It couldn't counter Swampert, but it could revenge kill it without scaring it away. Earth Power and Lava Plume meant it could still attack even if there was no Swampert on the opponent's team.
  8. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007
    I have to agree that I have used such sets in the past, and they can work beautifully.


    252 HP 76 Spd 180 Sp.ATK
    -Dark Pulse
    -Ice Beam

    More special attack than traditional quiet boah, and yet has the speed to out-run 0 speed metagross and scizor.

    Tyranitar is surprisingly effective at pulling in steel types like Lucario, Metagross, Foretress, Scizor, Bronzong, Jirachi and even Skarmory. It is also effective at scaring off a number of pokemon, including weak special attackers. The trick is simple enough, just like any Boah, Sub up as you scare the opponent out, however from here "Special" boah can procede to eliminate specific threats to your team, most notably steel types not named heatran or empoleon. Breloom also loves switching into this set just to get hit hard by ice beam/f-thrower. Heracross will come in to eat an occasional f-thrower as well.

    Ice Beam is for Salamence, and even more importantly for Flygon-- and even Zapdos is not partial to taking one head on. It also lets you beat Gliscor, Hippowdon and Donphan.

    Dark Pulse finds its greatest use against enemies who enjoy trying to stay in and burn TTar *cough*rotom-a*cough*, however even Gyarados and Swampert will not like having to take repeated hits from this.

    Be wary of Heatran and Infernape who wall you (walled by infernape, xD).

    Of course this can still make a useful check and switch in to a number of other pokemon, especially aforementioned special attackers like Azelf, Magnezone, Gengar (non LO), Starmie (don't switch in on water attack), Celebi (don't switch in on grass knot), rotom, cresselia, etc. etc. It can also kill Obi's wish-bliss in a stall war (or any bliss that has no seismic toss for that matter). xD
  9. XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2


    Aug 22, 2007
    Infernape still gets hit pretty hard after the defense drops from Close Combat to break the sub.
  10. iKitsune


    Jul 8, 2008
    Look at this thread now its a disgrace.

    I completely agree with tay gimmics are very effective. But he also explains exactly how they are useful. That ultimately if they are not used in conjunuction with the right pokemon to execute a tactic they are useless. A prime example of this is specs lucario which works really well well with scizor to erase its common counters. Props to legacy raider.

    When countering gimics one has to be careful.
    My general rule is if someone switches a metagross in on your swampert switch out. However the nature of ladder play in particular makes this very hard for one to do because the standard of players is constantly changing. So its tricky.
  11. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider sharpening his claws, slowly
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 1, 2008
    Nice thread TAY, and you hammered home a key point. Unpredictability and the element of surprise are usually the defining features that win matches between two evenly matched players. While these unconventional sets tend to lose their effectiveness over a period of time, they can be very, very effective if you don't flaunt them unnecessarily. Sometimes, getting your opponent to think something can be vital to a set's success, even if it is something as small as running Shuca Berry over Leftovers on a Body Slam / Iron Head Jirachi.

    Anyway, here is a 'gimmick' set that Imran and I have been using lately in UU, 'BaitLix':

    Steelix @ Passho Berry (water resist)
    252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Explosion

    The team we ran it on had problems with Water types, in particular things like Slowbro, Milotic, and Azumarill. Steelix, by virtue of its typing and defenses, lures these pokemon in, as they are some of the few that can actually hurt it. The Passho Berry allows it to survive a Surf from Milotic or Slowbro, or a CB Waterfall from Azumarill, even if it is at 50% health. This means that it can reliably take these pokemon out with an Atk invested Explosion.

    One more thing - the term 'gimmick' is often thought of as being a derogatory term for a set, but really, all it can mean is that it is a set that is very team specific, and so does not deserve to be in an analysis, etc. Like the BaitLix set - it is far less effective than a normal defensive Steelix at taking physical hits, being 2HKOed by things like a Hitmontop Close Combat, which Steelix would normally take with ease. It is less effective at the job it is traditionally seen as doing, and instead, it has been tailored for a team's specific needs.

    I think this is the exact same way that the 'bulky CBers' work. No one expects Donphan or Swampert to be doing any real damage as they are usually seen as bulky tanks - because that is the job they do best. You can really catch your opponent off guard and get some surprise KOs if you slap a CB on them and really abuse those 100+ attacking stats. But of course, this would mean that they won't work as well defensively as they normally would, and so you have to balance it out and see if the surprise value and extra damage is worth the loss in defenses.
  12. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 3, 2007
    This sounds like the same thing as lures, which I think have the most potential in tournament play. In ladder play I never want to rely on my opponent not knowing my set (like your Metagross); i.e. when I use a gimmick it needs to be good even if it doesn't accomplish what it aims to and the opponent knows the exact set. However in tournaments this kind of thing is a good idea as secrecy is rules enforced.

    I've used a Choice Scarf on my Toxic Spikes Special Defense Drapion in UU to some success. It rarely is in play for very long as it stood, and in the early game it surprises Froslass leads into dying. Of course Froslass is a Suspect now (as is Raikou, the other reason to use Scarf), but it was really neat to serve as a "revenge killer" as well as awesome support 'mon.

    Drapion @ Scarf
    252 HP / (enough speed to beat raikou) / (rest SpD) Careful
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Crunch
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
  13. Queso Grande

    Queso Grande

    Aug 15, 2008
    A while ago I ran up against a defensive shuffling Gyarados that really tore me apart with Waterfall / Rest / Sleep Talk / Roar. When I saw it Rest I assumed it was a mono-attacking DDer, and by the time I could get in a T-bolt user half my team got owned by spikes/SR damage. :(

    Pokemon with Roar/Whirlwind that you wouldn't expect are a great thing to have on a stall team, my old UU squad had a Leech Seed / Roar Venusaur that seemed to throw a lot of people off. Leech seed usually forces a switch off the bat, then you hit them with Roar and hope something non-threatening comes out. Then you can either Seed again if you think they'll attack you, or Roar if you expect them to switch.
  14. diamondfan1910


    Dec 4, 2008
    I tried a mixed Azelf on Suspect. Didn't work too well, but it didn't cover much that my team had particular problems with. In fact, it performed so poorly I can't even remember the spread/set. I think it was max Attack, 216 Speed 40 SpA Hasty, but it just lacked power. I think it might work if I taylored it a little.
  15. Tleilax


    Jun 24, 2008
    I've run some stuff that could be considered "gimmicky", since with Pokemon being all about prediction being able to do something they can't predict can win games. Nothing truly noteworthy, but fun nontheless.

    I guess my favorite was HP Fire on my Starmie. I was in a hiatus when Platinum released, and when I came back I discovered that Scizor tore my team a new asshole. Since everything on my team had a role, and I was a bit attached to it, I removed Psychic, which I rarely used anyway in Steel-heavy metagame, and added HP Fire. It racked up a lot of surprise kills. People usually tried to get a SD set up with Scizor, and would get roasted by HP Fire. Not so effective against Banded sets, so I might have to scout the Scizor first, but it destroyed SD sets and helped my team deal with it better short term while I thought of a more permenant solution, which ended up being Zapdos.

    I also ran a pure status Smeargle lead. It ran max speed with a Scarf, packing Trick, Spore, Will-o-Wisp, and Rapid Spin (filler). Totally shut down if it got Taunted after Tricking, but it could give me total momentum at almost any time I pleased. My team didn't care about SR too much, so I could Trick Stealth Rocking leads, and then Spore on the next turn. If they stayed in, then their lead was put to sleep, which was great against Explosion leads so they can't use a fast Explosion on me later. If they switched, something else got disabled. Then whatever they switched in got burned. It could Rapid Spin if it got the chance, which while not necessary usually, was helpful, and was great death fodder if really necessary and he had done his job.
  16. Sebastien Loeb

    Sebastien Loeb

    Aug 12, 2008
    Very it depends on the cleverness of whom uses certain Moveset, and also from the EVs it doesn't have sense use then a mixed sweeperse he won't succeed in demolishing one determined wall, in past I have for instance used Lucario Scarfer to surprise a whole metagame.
  17. A.P.


    Jul 14, 2008
    While playing nUU a few weeks ago, I felt my team had extreme weaknesses to Fire-types, even though I ran Moltres, Ludicolo, and Feraligatr (granted, the last was a late-game sweeper). After a little messing around, I decided to use an Arcanine in place of Moltres, and a Rock Polish Torterra instead of Ludicolo. Pay no attention to the latter switch...the former is the 'gimmick'. I decided to use the Mixed Arcanine set, with Thunder Fang over Flare Blitz and HP Ground instead of the more common and useful HP Grass. After tweaking the set, and taking a cue from the Anti-Lead Arcanine set posted in the nUU discussion thread, what I currently use is this.

    Arcanine (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 228 Atk/92 Sp.Atk/188 Spd
    Naive nature (+Spd, -Sp.Def)
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power (Water)
    - Will-o-Wisp

    ExtremeSpeed has always been on the set, for obvious reasons.

    Fire Blast used to be Overheat, but the Special Attack drop made it unsavory because it allowed for free set-ups, and sometimes these would not be 2HKOed by E-Speed.

    Hidden Power was originally Ground, but problems with Defensive Ground types, as well as problems with KOing certain Pokémon (aka Camerupt + Rhydon, both normally decent counters after an Overheat). HP Water solved that, and it threatened these Pokémon who might otherwise set up and sweep. It's also a decent opening move when I use Arcanine in the early game, scouting for other Fire-types.

    Will-O-Wisp replaced Thunder Fang, and was never really used, save for hitting stuff like Mismagius after an Overheat, to prevent a set-up. I was looking at the Anti-Lead Arcanine set, which had Toxic, and I decided to give status a whirl on my Arcanine (not a lead). I already had Toxic somewhere else, so I wanted to try burning switch-ins. It works beautifully, especially against Azumarill and other physical water that love to switch in, as well as hampering stuff like Slowbro and Milotic - Water-types in general, actually.

    This set works beautifully, in my opinion. It loves absorbing Fire-type moves in particular, from all sorts of stuff. Although it began as a Mixed Arcanine, I'm thinking of getting around to adding more Special Attack EVs, and dropping some attack ones, just because this thing is more Specially-based.

    I also use a Defensive Luxray on this team. This set is not my creation, and actually was suggested in the nUU discussion thread in countering many prominent physical attackers and statusing switch-ins. I forgot the EVs after reading the post the first time, and just use the EVs from the Defensive Luxray in the analysis. Although it may seem like an over-specific Staraptor counter, it stops other things cold too, and can cripple a third of the opposing team if proper prediction is used. The biggest enemies are Steelix and the Nidos, because they are immune to both his statuses. Before I say anything further on this set, I'd like to show you the set itself - or, at least, my variant of it.

    Luxray (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Sp. Def
    Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spd)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Toxic
    - Thunderbolt
    - Crunch

    Relaxed over Bold so Crunch can stop stuff more quickly (and break Raikou's Substitutes), and because Luxray doesn't really need the speed.

    Thunder Wave is crucial, because it stops Staraptor dead-cold by taking away its greatest weapon against unprepared teams: Speed. It also stops Manectric and Raikou, both who may hinder an eventual Torterra or Feraligatr sweep (at least while setting up).

    Toxic is usually her first move on the field, because most people assume Offensive Luxray who will open up with an Electric Attack, and because people tend to switch in Ground-types.

    Thunderbolt is for STAB, and is more powerful than Spark or Thunder Fang (and more accurate, though the difference is minimal).

    Crunch has good synergy with Thunderbolt, and is a nice weapon against Ghosts, especially SubCM Mismagius (very deadly when set up).

    This set is key to crippling the opponent's team, and possibly taking out a physical sweeper like Staraptor or Azumarill in the process.
  18. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    Sep 30, 2007
    Lol reading this from the front page made me think The Elitist came back.

    I love gimmicks though, but I don't always use them because I feel dumb, lol (even though they work!) I used to use SpecialGross a lot a long time ago -- pre-uberChomp. It worked really well. Things like Weezing would switch in and get mauled by Psychic, as would Swampert by Grass Knot; it also always made me smile because I could always tell my opponent was thinking "well fuck."

    I think you actually used this on the team we made, right TAY? (Albeit without Sub) I loved this too. Walls like Blissey would switch in and get a sad suprise from the "stupid gimmick." It also worked, like you said, taking out Gyarados and friends (Vaporeon, and even Starmie, switch ins didn't like taking Toxic either).

    Edit: Oh I used Mix Champ too. I didn't use Focus Blast though, it didn't occur to me to use it because Physical attacks as a whole are better imo. Fire Blast helped a lot though against shit like Skarmory and Celebi. I'm not one of those people who think "Well I can't normally KO this thing with DynamicPunch but let's Confuse it and see what happens." Instead I'd rather use attacks like Fire Blast and hope for the burn :D

    Edit2: I don't think Bounce Gyarados is a gimmick at all. Gimmicks are things (like Special/Mix Gross) where you'd think it'd be stupid and worthless but against have some potential. Bounce Gyarados is actually good on paper (and playing) and semi-standard.
  19. animenagai

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Nov 19, 2007
    I run mixed machamp too, but I don't consider it a gimmick. I just use fire blast as my only special attack. It's basically the same thing as slapping flamethrower on DDmence.

    Clear advantages it has over CBchamp is that A. It requires less prediction and can deal with revolving threats and B. CB makes you abuse dynamic punch a lot. You figure as long as the opponent doesn't bring a ghost in you can at least confuse it. That leads to D-punch running out of PP quickly (it only has 8).
  20. chenman333


    Aug 26, 2008
    Fire Blast certainly works on Machamp though I think he would still prefer some bulk, since Machamp is definitely a tank (sloooow) and needs to be able to take hits. Even without any investment and without any boosting items, Fire Blast 2hkoes Skarmory and always hits. But I guess 1hkoing Skarmory with a LO, max SpA Fire Blast has its kicks.

    So basically just use a standard physical one, and then run Fire Blast for the quick 2hko on Skarm. Only Fire Blast is needed on mixed Machamp.

    Edit: I would run 136 EVs with a Naughty (neutral SpA, Atk) nature and give Machamp a LO to 2hko Celebi all the time with Fire Blast and SR.

    I've tried out Mixed Metagross, but he really isn't that great against Rotom; you need considerably more SpA investment for Shadow Ball to 2hko, while they can often outspeed you and hit fairly hard with T Bolt or just basiclaly kill with Overheat. I do remember in ADV he was VERY good.
  21. Steinhauser


    Jun 5, 2007
    I've had some successes using gimmicks. Some of the best involved two or more members of a team, spinning intricate plans around opponents' expected reactions.

    Speed-passing Occa Scizor comes to mind. Luring in things like Heatran, Zapdos, Magnezone, and Rotom-h, it would use Agility, then Light Screen as it took the Fire attack, and then BP out to Rhyperior, who usually got at least one free SD.
  22. Shelcario


    Nov 25, 2007
    Gimmicks, I think, is what makes the battling metagame more interesting than just seeing the same old listed set in the posted analysis. I believe that it brings a sort of "flavor" to the pokemon battling community.
  23. wDro


    Aug 2, 2005
    Well I guess my 2 old "gimmick" sets are taunt/bravebird/roost/(u-turn/toxic/sub) crobat and dual screen deoxys-S.

    When I used that crobat back in Oct2007, I believe some pro players lol'd at it. Now this set has become a stable in UU and people want to ban it in UU. As most people have already known, this set is one of the best leads and a great mid to late game revenge killer. Having one of the fastest taunt can shut down your opponent from setting up and disrupt their momentum for the rest of the game.

    As for DS deoxys-s, at first people were telling me how I wasted the pokemon. Turned out it gave me some pleasant results. It became quite successful that the set became one of the reasons it got bumped back up to the Uber tier. I guess I don't need to go on further on how dangerous the dual screen strategy is. Doubling your team's defenses can really throw your opponents off who generally rely on their counters to do just enough damage to KO a threat.
  24. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 5, 2008
    This topic is not post your fun little movesets. It even says in the OP, don't do that. Go to the creative moveset thread if you want that or better yet, post something intelligent and helpful to the thread along with your move set (see Legacy Raider's post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1781540&postcount=14 ) If I see anymore examples of people just posting a set and nothing else, I'm deleting and infracting it.

    Anyway, another category of gimmicks is using an unexpected item. I mean something like a Choice Scarf Jolteon as a catch-all revenge killer. I believe it was brought up before but also a defensive pokemon going on the offensive like CB Snorlax, Swampert etc. can be effective surprise in most teams. Anyway, not much to say since TAY covered most of it.

    Edit: In fact, I'm going to move all those posts to the creative moveset topic just to make a point.
  25. sheep

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Aug 10, 2008
    Only good players know how to "use" gimmicks.
    Most people do it for publicity and they don't even work.

    I like gimmicks.

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