How would a 600BST restriction effect the metagame?

[Lee]

I believe that such an idea has been proposed in the past, but was overlooked. I'm not looking for this to be implemented, but I'd like to hear some opinions on it.

As it stands, the metagame is over-run by 600BST behemoths, who generally sport excellent stats, typing and movepool. A lot of these Pokemon require several team slots to counter effectively. The OU 600BST Pokemon are as follows:

- Garchomp
- Metagross
- Tyranitar
- Salamence
- Dragonite
- Celebi
- Jirachi
- Shaymin
- Heatran
- Cresselia
- Deoxys-E (Shoddy)

We'll leave Slaking and Regigigas out of this for obvious reasons.

Most successful teams I encounter usually have 3-4 of these powerhouses and it does result in a clear-cut advantage over any opponent who opts not to stock up on them.

Of course, this has always been the case in previous generations. However, D/P has not only brought us 4 new 600BST Pokemon, but it has also dramatically pumped up the existing ones to arguable uber status.

I believe it was proposed in the past that teams be restricted in their selection of these Pokemon. This could be negotiated to 1-2 per team.

What do you feel would be the pros and cons of such a restriction? Is it a worthwhile endeavour, or should we all just accept that these monsters are just like any other Pokemon?

Discuss.

 

[el_B]

What's with Dragonite?

 

[Aldaron]

Terrible idea. People seriously don't realize the implication of banning anything. Banning is a far more extreme action than unbanning.

All you're saying here is remove half of the top 20. What happens next?

This is competitive Pokemon, you play to win. If you feel that you don't want to use the top 20, well, you shouldn't be playing Pokemon.

Also, it so simple to make a successful team without these, people just make a big deal about nothing. My RMT used 1 600 BST Pokemon (Heatran), and it was extremely successful; This happened not because I didn't want to, but because I don't bother with fruitless designations like "600 BST" or whatever.

All removing Pokemon does is shift around what is used and what isn't. After you remove your arbitrary classification of Pokemon, you'll have another set of Pokemon that "centralize" the metagame.

 

[Lee]

The proposal wasn't to ban them; it was to limit teams in their usage of them. Don't you think limiting a player to only 2 600BST Pokemon per team would surely encourage variety?

 

[Aldaron]

That's such an arbitrary designation!

Why the hell are we limiting 600 BST Pokes, specifically? Maybe limiting the top 20 or would be a little less arbitrary (not really), but 600 BST?! Why?!

Lucario / Blissey / Infernape / Gengar / Gyarados / Bronzong are all NOT 600 BST Pokemon and they are in the ten most used. 60% of the top 10 are not 600 BST Pokemon, and you think for some reason 600 BST Pokemon centralize the game?

I don't get it.

 

[Lee]

I never claimed they centralise the metagame. I said that they are the most powerful Pokemon, in terms of statistics and often movepools. They're all incredibly common, and there's nothing to stop a player from stacking their team to the point where their team's stat total is over 3000, whilst the average team could be several hundred points less. Is that really an even playing field?

And for the record, I voted the second option. I don't think such a restriction is neccesary, but I was interested to see some general opinions on it. I always find it amusing after the match when I glance at my opponents team and think "Wow, he used Tyranitar, Garchomp, Celebi AND Heatran?"

 

[Stall]

I think you're making a big mistake by removing Slaking from that list, but whatever.

As for the question, it so happens that many of the 600 BST group have really nice defensive resistances/typing, and so I think they should be allowed as many as you want.

 

[Taylor]

I wouldn't want to ban them.


If I was to think of something to compare this to, it would be:

If you cut off the world's largest dick that belonged to someone, there would be another dick that would take the title of being the biggest dick.

That aside, it would make a difference, but with the things like Gyarados getting an even easier chance to flex its threat to the metagame, I would have to decline and just stick with the options we have.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

taylor once again bringing in the perfect analogy to the situation :P

yeah limiting usage based solely on stats is pointless, it won't help balance the metagame if the pokemon being limited isn't unbalancing it in the first place

 

[Phuquoph]

I never claimed they centralise the metagame. I said that they are the most powerful Pokemon, in terms of statistics and often movepools. They're all incredibly common, and there's nothing to stop a player from stacking their team to the point where their team's stat total is over 3000, whilst the average team could be several hundred points less. Is that really an even playing field?

No, it's not an even playing field, but the fault isn't with the people who choose to use the "600 club" in their teams. I agree with Aldaron on this. Anyone who arbitrarily refuses to use something based solely on stat totals isn't playing competitively.

And for the record, I voted the second option. I don't think such a restriction is neccesary, but I was interested to see some general opinions on it. I always find it amusing after the match when I glance at my opponents team and think "Wow, he used Tyranitar, Garchomp, Celebi AND Heatran?"

You might have been playing me! I had someone comment on my use of those exact four Pokemon on a team I was using last week.

 

[Gandalf the blue]

If you cut off the world's largest dick that belonged to someone, there would be another dick that would take the title of being the biggest dick.

Lol nice example, it hits the nail on the head or whatever you say in america/england

On the other hand it would be really fun to limit a team to only one 600 Base Stat Pokemon, as you wont see the Heatran/Celebi/Tyranitar/Metagross/Suicune teams ore similar ones anymore

 

[Pratty]

I think that this wouldn't be a good idea for mainstream. Maybe a series of side tournaments or something, but not mainstream.

Also, I find it funny you didn't include Slaking and Regigigas, either because of their trait(Which Slaking can easily work around) or because their BL...

Yet, you left on Shaymin. Why? Shaymin is BL, and generally sucks. Sceptile is just as good a subseeder and can hit with a physical set along with special. Shaymin had Seed Flare. What makes it good enough to include on this list, but not Slaking or Regigigas?

 

[Sovereign]

You sorta spelled "affect" wrong. At any rate, someone questioned about dragonite earlier here. After a dd, think of it as a discreetly lesser version of rayquaza.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Base 600 pokes bleed like all others. I have nothing against them.

 

[Mr.378]

Meh, I think things are fine as it is.

 

[eric the espeon]

its a bad idea to ban pokemon simply due to high BST. dont go there.

 

[Zofa]

Definately not, just because the person has a higher total base stat doesnt mean they have an advantage. Tell me who has the advantage here, asuming no sashes or scarfs.

Team 1:Salamence/Tyranitar/Garchomp/Dragonite/Celibi/Heatran

Team 2:Weavile/Infernape/Electrivire/Slobro/Heracross/Regice

According to you team one with its perfect 3600 base stat, it should have a big advantage over every other team...not really =] No i didnt just slap shit together to make a point like 6 mences, these are plausible team, not the best, but plausible.

 

[Deucalion2]

That's not a plausible team because half of it has the same typing. Come up with a decent reason, or you get ignored.

 

[Shinryu]

I think it could be worth testing, but overall I don't think they disrupt the metagame too much (I mean, look at poor Shaymin, no one uses it). Garchomp, Metagross, and Co. usually have their own counters on any good team.

 

[EconBiscuit]

ok, I voted other because I would've preffered to vote for one or two.

Maybe you could just ask shoddy for a clause for this however this will only diminish you're battles, Also if you're not happy with the 600BSt lot, then play BL or UU?

 

[ThaPhantom07]

Actually, I'd like to try a metagame like this. Not saying it is good or bad, but I'd like to try it out.

 

[Phizzlax]

Cresselia fits better on that team than Dragonite does. If not her, then certainly Metagross. Which IMO is a pretty decent team.
More on topic, I agree with a lot of what has already been said. Banning them would just allow Gyara, Gengar, Ape, Bronzong, Blissey, etc to be that much more powerful. If you want to shake things up ban a few select Pokemon (like Blissey). I'm not saying that's a GOOD idea, but it would definitely change things a lot.

 

[Raikou]

The only 600 BST on that list that really is overpowering is Garchomp, the others are strong but have something that keeps them in check. Celebi and Tyranitar are tough but they have 5 and 7 weaknesses respectively, including a x4 one, Dragonite and Metagross are too slow to sweep without setup, etc. You have to look at them individually.

(Please don't say an ice weak keeps Garchomp in check when it takes a lot of EV investment to even 1hko, standard Raikou can't even do it with HP ice).

 

[the Lexx]

this isn't much better than legend clause >_>

and as stated earlier, most of them aren't that hard to kill

 

[Notty]

I'd personally enjoy seeing a metagame without BST 600's around, but it's simply unfeasible. Too many people enjoy using them to ever consider removing them. It's just not going to happen.