Lol, you people need to watch my games then. I manage to make a team that includes 0 of the standard OU Pokemon. while most people use 6 >.>
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
If You Were Watching A Battle, Which Pokemon Would Lead And Be In The Players' Teams?
- Thread starter X-Act
- Start date
Yes it is a beast and its good since it can easily come in on weak pokes like a forry or a lugia and take there attacks easily and reteliate with an almost full powered waterspout which OHKOs a lugia. Also a common counter to special sweepers is blissey which could wall the lati twins and palkia with ease whereas a specsogre couod blow apart a blissey. Most people would try to wall ogre with blissey but no matter wat the evs are a modestspecsogre will blow it apart in 2 hits and most of the time the other player will retreat their bliss into the incoming spout so you take no reteliation. It boasts immense power to OHKO or 2HKO almost everything in the metagame and with Sr up, capable of KOing a cmlatios type in one hit if its pooints are below 75% then water spout will ko majority of the time. UNlike groudon it blows apart llugia and comes in on it ease blasting it apart. Its bulkyness allows it to stand up to timidscarfpalk's spacial rend and even with SR is a 3HKO. Sets up the rain andcan give you a weather advantage you need as well.
So are these stats instead of the usage charts of past months?
Quite interesting to note that Electivire's usage is less than Tentacruel.
Are the OU lists going to be based off of the 5% cut off mark? That would mean
Aerodactyl 6.38%
Crobat 5.75%
Donphan 5.59%
Kingdra 5.52%
Empoleon 5.34%
Umbreon 5.29%
Abomasnow 5.02%
all make it in. How nice :B Now the Aerodactyl -> UU question would be ceased.
And, the uber mark could be 55% for overcentralizing. Just saying that in general.
Quite interesting to note that Electivire's usage is less than Tentacruel.
Are the OU lists going to be based off of the 5% cut off mark? That would mean
Aerodactyl 6.38%
Crobat 5.75%
Donphan 5.59%
Kingdra 5.52%
Empoleon 5.34%
Umbreon 5.29%
Abomasnow 5.02%
all make it in. How nice :B Now the Aerodactyl -> UU question would be ceased.
And, the uber mark could be 55% for overcentralizing. Just saying that in general.
Why are stickies seemingly actually harder for people to see?
It's still a good reflection of their overall usage... awesome representation, X-act =dX-Act said:
Yea, SpecsOgre is the BEAST with Water Spout 2HKOing even Blissey =x. Latias, Palkia, Giratina, and Kyogre are the only ubers who can absorb such a hit twice with leftovers, and only the first one is really designed to counter Kyogre.
I was surprised Groudon boasting the #2 slot, though x_x. Drought is a direct counter to Kyogre's Rain-Themed teams, though, so that's possibly one reason. And Lugia's usage topping Latias and Giratina is pretty amazing, since Latias is known for its special-sponging and the uber guide made it seem as if Giratina is the new physical tank for DP.
Your opponent is still very likely to have OU Pokemon, so your battle would still probably comprise of OU Pokemon.
And no, I'm not changing the definition of OU. I might change the 75% cut-off point though due to the fact that Doug's statistics counts also Pokemon that don't feature in a battle.
Updated with Leads chances.
What are the chances of seeing one or both players lead with the following Pokemon in a Standard battle?
... in a UU battle?
... in an Uber battle?
What are the chances of seeing one or both players lead with the following Pokemon in a Standard battle?
Code:
----------------------
Pokemon Chance
----------------------
Bronzong 14.84%
Azelf 11.98%
Gengar 11.88%
Tyranitar 9.12%
Gyarados 6.78%
Deoxys-S 6.39%
Yanmega 5.84%
Salamence 5.83%
Roserade 5.65%
Infernape 5.11%
All Others < 5%
----------------------
Code:
----------------------
Pokemon Chance
----------------------
Persian 15.15%
Hitmontop 8.97%
Primeape 8.53%
Electrode 7.03%
Swellow 6.78%
Froslass 6.53%
Clefable 6.42%
Scyther 6.23%
Ninetales 6.06%
Rapidash 5.74%
Venomoth 5.48%
Kangaskhan 5.40%
Rotom 5.08%
All Others < 5%
----------------------
Code:
----------------------
Pokemon Chance
----------------------
Darkrai 30.24%
Deoxys-A 23.63%
Dialga 21.04%
Kyogre 18.89%
Mew 15.47%
Ninjask 12.59%
Groudon 8.92%
Lugia 8.30%
Mewtwo 6.68%
All Others < 5%
----------------------The problem with SpecsOgre is how damn slow it is combined with the fact that Stealth Rock is almost always on the field. I just think it gets worn down too easily. I mean it can still be good once Spout levels drop below Surf, but by that point there's usually nothing to worry about.
Groudon is generally the utility variety, and by far the best utility Pokemon in Ubers. 100 Base HP and 140 Base Defense while still packing enough attack to hit most things pretty hard is amazing. Also one of the few Pokemon in the game that can survive a (neutral) SD Ray's Outrage (barely though :/) and can then cripple it with twave. Also (but don't tell anyone it's a secret) the Life Orb SD set is one of the best sets in Ubers and consistently gets me 2+ kills per match.
Lugia topping Latias is somewhat startling (Lugia kinda sucks), but topping Giratina isn't startling at all (Giratina sucks more; horrible typing for Ubers).
I should stop going off topic but I really like discussing ubers :/
(resists urge to flame)
I'm not exactly sure why it's something to be proud of that you're "unique". It just means that you're using different pre-set Pokémon than someone else, which are usually less effective in general. I mean, I've never at all understood the point of "trying to be different". At all. After all, if enough people do it the concept itself isn't different at all anyway.
By the way, what exactly is the hold-up on putting Garchomp and Steelix in OU and UU to a vote? I mean, there's a very wide majority of people that have said that Garchomp is too much for OU, and all this usage suggest something very similar for Steelix in UU (i'm not really surprised actually), so why isn't there a vote, or at the very least a Garchomp-less ladder just to "compare centralization" or whatever.
The OU tier is based on the top 75% of usages, not the chance of a Pokémon being on either team. Ubers is strictly a ban tier for OU, and it's not completely numeric. The definition of "overcentarlizing" is shaky even without arbitrary numberage.
Get the fuck outta here Jabba. If Kyogre isn't better than any of them why the hell is it used more than ALL of them???? Okay so it takes less skill to use Kyogre because of his undeniably broken special stats... but thats complimenting how "good" he is. Name another special sweeper that can 2HKO Blissey with a neutral-effective specs move? Anyone? nope... Name another water pokemon that can eat super effective thunders from the hardest hitting pokemon in the game and smile at them and keep coming? Yeah, Kyogre is one of the worst ubers.... clearly....
It's used the most because quite frankly, everyone sucks at Ubers. No one plays, nor knows how to play, but they throw together a team and play a few battles anyway. Kyogre is one of the easiest Ubers to use, so they just slap Specs on it and Water Spout away. But just because it's the easiest Uber to use in no way makes it the best. I'd be much more scared of a Rayquaza in the hands of a capable player than a Kyogre in those same hands. Kyogre simply lacks the near uncounterability that threats such as Dialga and Rayquaza possess.
Oh and in the future can you refrain from putting words in my mouth? I listed what? 6 ubers that i thought were better than Kyogre? So unless there are only 7 ubers I'm pretty sure my statements weren't even close to calling Kyogre "one of the worst ubers."
Sorry about that. But what comparatively speaking, you listed most of the uber tier in your description of what is better than Kyogre. And I couldn't agree more about Kyogre being easy to use which is why it is the most used. We can draw striking comparisons to Garchomp in OU...
Well then jabba, looks like your the only good uber player. Well anyway ogre is easy to use but that doesnt mean a thing about its usefulness in battle. And specsogre is not as easily counterable as you say Jabba, it may be damn slow but it can take blows from lugia who can counter sdloray with ease and come in on it and blast a poke to smitherins. Also with the decrease of latias and increase of blissey specsogre will be even harder to counter since the only poke in the top ten who could even counter specs is latios though with enough SR switch ins it can be koed and palkia and to an extent dialga and ray. However with SR ray gets KOed. If a specsogre manages to come in with little dmg, its bye bye for one of youur pokes, most likely.
I'm agreeing with Jabba here. From my own uber experience (Which is probably more than a lot of people (for d/p at least)) Kyogre is just one of those Pokemon that is there to help if a teamslot is needed. In no way is he a dangerous threat as dialga, palkia, or rayquaza (Even groudon and mewtwo as well).
When you look at it, Kyogre isn't going to be sweeping teams as long as you are fighting a competent uber player. With Blissey, Latias, Palkia, Dialga all countering it, as well as Rayquaza hitting it hard with e-speed, Kyogre is a pokemon that can try and hurt these pokemon but is pretty much forced to leave soon afterwards.
As mentioned already, Kyogre needs a Scarf to actually outpace threats but needs Choice Specs for the power to 2hko things. he can't have both and that makes him easily counterable.
imo Kyogre needs Calm Mind to be effective but this isnt relevant here. However what is relevant is that Kyogre is a pokemon that everyone thinks is amazing because of water spout and that is why he is used so much. Also I have never once seen a uber rd team, so someone explain why rain is the reason kyogre is used so much. -_-
When you look at it, Kyogre isn't going to be sweeping teams as long as you are fighting a competent uber player. With Blissey, Latias, Palkia, Dialga all countering it, as well as Rayquaza hitting it hard with e-speed, Kyogre is a pokemon that can try and hurt these pokemon but is pretty much forced to leave soon afterwards.
As mentioned already, Kyogre needs a Scarf to actually outpace threats but needs Choice Specs for the power to 2hko things. he can't have both and that makes him easily counterable.
imo Kyogre needs Calm Mind to be effective but this isnt relevant here. However what is relevant is that Kyogre is a pokemon that everyone thinks is amazing because of water spout and that is why he is used so much. Also I have never once seen a uber rd team, so someone explain why rain is the reason kyogre is used so much. -_-
don't forget dexosy-A :/
also i think your understating how good kyogre is by saying in no way is he as dangerous as the pokemon listed above.
Thanks, Jabba =]. That certainly is a clear argument for Kyogre and Groudon. Yea, I guess the only reason why I experienced trouble with SpecsKyogre is because I lacked SR or Toxic Spikes and my only true Special Wall was Blissey. On the flip-side, I've lost couple of games, because ToxiSpikes and / or SRocks weakened my SpecsKyogre, and it then gets walled pretty easily. The only thing I could do is switch out Kyogre and lose more health when I use it again. So it became pretty powerless and ineffective during those battles.
Choiced Kyogre is straight-forward, yet powerful, so it is hard to take hits from it, but also rather easy to go around it at times. CM Kyogre has some advantage, but without Rest, Blissey with THunder + Psych Up / CM would counter it, and SpecsOgre, Palkia, and Lati@s have easier time coming in and hitting it hard.
I also fear SD Groudon. Perhaps, the only reason why I haven't really done anything to truly alleviate this fear is because I haven't seen much of them. Mostly utility / support Groudon as you have pointed out, and the one with Swords Dance only had Dragon Claw so my 252 HP / 252 SDef Lugia managed to survive.
I find it rather difficult to find coverage for all the special threats, physical threats, and mixed threats in Ubers that are so overwhelming, but I think I'll find a way if I try harder.
KD24, sorry, I really didn't mean rain-based teams as in an uber team with SwiftSwim, Rain Dish, Hydration, Dry Skin, etc, but more like an uber team that takes advantage of the rain, such as team with Palkia, Metagross, and other monsters utilizing Water or Thunder moves. In this respect, Groudon's Drought prove problematic to such teams. Groudon's sunlight severely puts a damper to Palkia's offense, for instance. Also only Blissey + Latias / Water Absorber / Very Bulky Palkia w/ Leftovers or Shedinja can really take hits from a CSpecsOgre's full-powered Water Spout and other elemental moves until residual damages weaken it. Other dragons and Kyogre have no business taking Water Spouts unless they are specifically designed for taking such hits (and even then Dialga and Rayquaza fail).
Many uber teams will use both Kyogre and Groudon, simply because both pokemon fill usful slots in a team. Groudon really doesn't hinder Palkia to much, considering you've still got a 100 base power Dragon type attack to work with, and the Sun can provide psuedo STAB on Fire Blast, helping Palkia eliminate pokemon like Jirachi, who otherwise wall it.
I agree with Jabba on Kyogre not being one of the "best" uber pokemon out there. Normally, if I have Kyogre on my team, I'll use it as a "what the fuck do I do against this?" pokemon, kind of like I do with Uxie in OU. There are quite a few other pokemon I fear more than Kyogre, such as Rayquaza, Groudon, Deoxys-A, Dialga and Palkia. Kyogre is more or less of those "jack of all trades" pokemon that isn't exactly the best, but really doesn't have many downsides either.
I agree with Jabba on Kyogre not being one of the "best" uber pokemon out there. Normally, if I have Kyogre on my team, I'll use it as a "what the fuck do I do against this?" pokemon, kind of like I do with Uxie in OU. There are quite a few other pokemon I fear more than Kyogre, such as Rayquaza, Groudon, Deoxys-A, Dialga and Palkia. Kyogre is more or less of those "jack of all trades" pokemon that isn't exactly the best, but really doesn't have many downsides either.