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Imagine Dragons

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Cinco Diablo, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,265
    Imagine Dragons



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]Introduction[​IMG]

    Hello again Smogon and welcome to my 4th RMT on these forums! As most of you may know, I am the creator or The Dawn Of Kyurem, a very successful Hail team of mine. Now, here I am with another RMT that may even surpass the success of my previous RMT. Now, there was help from a friend on this team, his name is CoolStoryBrobat (he'll speak later in this introduction). Anyway, this team is based around Haxorus, a very underrated Dragon, just barely hanging on to it's life in OU, so we decided to make this RMT to help it gain some more usage and influence others to use it. The teams name is a reference to an excellent band that I think everyone should listen to, Imagine Dragons. The playstyle of this team is a bulky offense of sorts that cosists of Wallbreaking with Latias and then sweeping late-game with the deadly monster known as Dragon Dance Haxorus. Bulky Offense is not seen a lot these days, and we were sick and tired of seeing one weather team after another, so we decided to break away from the norm and create this team. Also, Haxorus doesn't get enough love these days, being outclassed by Dragonite and Salamence, so this RMT is to prove that he is just as good as the rest of them. Well, that's enough of me talking, so I'll hand the mike over to CoolStoryBrobat for his side of the story.​

    Hey, CoolStoryBrobat here, and yeah, just as stated above, me and the great Dr. Ciel here put our heads together coming up with this team. I really like using Pokemon that are "unique" or "underrated" in today's meta, and we both agreed that Haxorus needs some more respect. In terms of synergy we've got some really good defensive and offensive presence with the team's setup, however I feel a few tweaks could be made to save us from some of the top threats this team faces (which it does quite often).​

    From here on out, Dr Ciels comments will be in Red and CoolStoryBrobat's comments will be in Purple.

    [​IMG]Team At A Glance[​IMG]



    [​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]





    [​IMG]In Depth Look[​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    -----------------------------

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Blaxorus[​IMG]
    Blaxorus (Haxorus) (M) @ Lum Berry [​IMG]
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Low Kick
    - Dragon Dance​

    Alright, starting off this team is the star of the show, Dragon Dance Haxorus. We usually save this guy for late-game, when th opponents team has been worn down enough for him to sweep the opponent clean with just one Dragon Dance. We use the standard 4 / 252 / 252 spread here, with the max Attack and Speed being used for obvious reasons. We opted to go with Adamant over Jolly because we wanted Haxorus to have all the raw power he can get. Now, I'll explain the movset and what the moves do. Outrage is the crux of this set, dealing neutral damage to everything except those nasty Steel types, coming off a base 147 Attack with STAB, this can OHKO or 2HKO basically everything that doesn't resist it. Now, we chose to go with Earthquake, to help get past 2 of Haxorus' worst enemies, Magnezone and Jirachi. Both are OHKO'd after a Dragon Dance. Next, we have Superpower, the only way for us to deal supereffectice damage to Ferrothorn and our only way of dealing samage to the worst enemy of Haxorus, opposing Skarmory. Finally, Dragon Dance is for bolstering it's Offense and Speed, as Haxorus has 648 Attack, enough to 2HKO all of OU, bar Skarmory and gets it up to 427 Speed, enough to outspeed the entire OU meta, bar Scarfers, Venusaur under Sun and Stoutland under Sand. Low Kick has replaced Superpower, which still allows us to hit Ferrothorn, but without the Attack and Defense drops.


    ------------------------------
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Magnus II[​IMG]
    Magnus II (Magnezone) @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Charge Beam
    - Substitute​

    What formerly was the super awesome Magneton suggested by Dr. Ciel as the first partner for Haxorus, is now a Magnezone. Magnezone plays exactly as did Magneton, albeit a bit slower than its predacessor. With the given EVs, it outspeeds every single Pokemon it's meant to trap, the common Forretress and Ferrothorns who roam OU, and it can even get the jump on most bulky Jirachi sets provided they lack Calm Mind. The set remains the same, Thunderbolt for powerful STAB, Hidden Power Fire for the sake of killing off Forretress and Ferrothorn very easily, even in rain after a few boosts, Charge Beam for powering up, and Substitute to make it even more of a pain for Forretress and Ferrothorn to break through, and to have a bit of insurance against the next Pokemon that has to come in to revenge kill Magnezone. At first I started out running Hidden Power Ice when it was formerly a Magneton, but then changed to Hidden Power Fire. As good as HP Fire is, there's times I am tempted to change back to HP Ice. Specifically for handling Gliscor switch-ins, as they are EXCESSIVELY annoying for this team I'm finding out.


    Former Magneton (open)

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]Magnus[​IMG]
    Magnus (Magneton) @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Substitute
    - Charge Beam

    Now, Magneton was actually Dr. Ciel's first choice for a partner to Haxorus, naturally due to its niche in trapping and killing off those annoying Steel-types who get in Haxorus' way. The first thing you'll notice is that for some odd reason, I'm running Leftovers as opposed to Eviolite on a Magneton. Simply put, I was playing around with the idea of having Lefties on it. Even though its defenses are inferior now to those of Magnezone's without the Eviolite, I didn't like how limited Magneton's lifespan on the field was. Having no recovery I felt it wore down too quickly and inevitably died off, which is a shame for a Pokemon with such offensive presence. Anyway, Timid nature with Max SpA and Max Speed simply for helping Magneton do what it does best: Getting up Substitutes, racking up boosts, and killing opposing Steel-types. Also, the niche it has is that it functions specifically as a faster-but-less-bulky Magnezone. And surprisingly, it's outsped more than just slow Steel-types. The moveset is very straightforward: Thunderbolt as the primary powerful STAB attack, Hidden Power Fire to quickly destroy foes like Ferrothorn and Forretress (It used to run HP Ice, but it wasn't as effective in my opinion.) Charge Beam helps Magneton rack up potential SpA boosts from behind a Substitute to be even more of a relevant threat after killing a Steel-type. Substitute is self-explanatory, and helps capitalize while trapping most Steels, as they often have trouble breaking the Sub


    .





    ------------------------------
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]F.L.U.D.D.[​IMG]
    F.L.U.D.D. (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 232 SDef / 28 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Up next, we have arguably the greatest revenge killer in the OU metagame today, Choice Scarf Rotom-W. Now, like I said obviously, Rotom-W is our revenge killer for the team. We noticed that we had a weakness to Mamoswine, and Rotom-W is arguably an excellent check to it, resisting both Icicle Crash, Ice Shard, while also being immune to Earthquake, it makes for a great check. We went with the standard EV's here, with Max Special Attack to bolster his STAB moves, while also running Max Speed to outspeed most common threats. We went with a Modest Nature for more power for it's STAB attacks. Hydro Pump is the crux of this set, grabbing the KO on a variety of threats in the OU metagame, such as Volcarona, the aftermentioned Mamoswine, Infernape, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T, and many others, so it's an excellent move to have. Volt Switch is for getting out of a jam quickly, and also for damaging the bulky Water types in the tier, such as Jellicent, Politoed, and Tentacruel. It also hits Starmie, a threat to this team decently well. Hidden Power Ice is for revenge killing all the Dragon types in the tier, such as Dragonite, Salamence and Garchomp, while also grabbing the KO on Gliscor. Trick helps immensely against special walls, especially the likes of Chansey and Blissey, which wall Rotom-W cold. Changed to a Special Defensive spread due to lack of a special wall.


    ------------------------------
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Land-R-us[​IMG]
    Land-R-Us (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 52 Atk / 144 Def / 112 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Stealth Rock

    Landorus-T was quite an interesting choice, I went with it from the options of either it or Gliscor for a couple reasons. One, I knew the team needed a Stealth Rocker to help set hazards so Haxorus can have an easier time in general sweeping. Not only that, but I noticed the team had no resistances or even immunities to Fighting-type attacks thus far, so I felt having a resistance was a prirority. Dr. Ciel recommended Landorus-T, and I agreed. It has a great ability in Intimidate, which makes switching in much easier, as well as being part-Flying, being immune to Ground-type attacks that would otherwise demolish Magneton. The EV Spread on this Landorus-T set is incredibly far from standard, as I run max Speed and Attack. This is tailored specifically for the team's needs, as I would like it to pose a threat offensively with a STAB Earthquake coming off that base 145 Atk stat. Not only that, but I feel the Speed investment is necessary to help the team maintain momentum against slower threats. As for the moves, Earthquake is for STAB purposes. Stone Edge for coverage, perfect with Earthquake, U-Turn for gaining momentum and having a decent VoltTurn core with Rotom-W, and Stealth Rock to set hazards, which is what Landorus' main purpose is on this team. I run Expert Belt simply because I don't like the recoil caused by Life Orb, which stacks even further against me when considering this Pokemon is meant to be switching in and out pretty often. Leftovers is another option I am considering for its held item, however. I also have not run the standard bulky spread, so I can't gauge how effective or ineffective it would be in specific, so recommendations are welcome if this seems shaky. So far, Landorus has been doing quite well though, in my opinion. Changed to a bulky spread to ourspeed and do significant damage to threats like Jirachi, Celebi, and Tentacruel


    ------------------------------
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]TRUCKion[​IMG]
    TRUCKion (Terrakion) @ Choice Scarf [​IMG]
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Sacred Sword​

    Terrakion is a big huge step for this team, as without a Choice Scarf on Rotom, our team now lacks a solid revenge killer. Some suggestions were given at first to replace Tentacruel with a more offensive Pokemon, and my first choice was Life Orb Mamoswine, who did do pretty well, but I felt it didn't work as well with the team in terms of synergy. Another suggestion I saw was Choice Scarf Terrakion, which I found interesting. I also learned that Jolly Scarf Terrakion can outspeed Volcarona after a single Quiver Dance and threaten to OHKO with Stone Edge/Rock Slide, which is incredibly good to know as this team is majorly sun-weak. Neutral-natured Venusaur in sun is also outsped, but more often than not this team still gets demolished by positive-natured ones. Terrakion is still subject to potential change as I've lost...quite a number of games with Stone Edge's infamous accuracy. Speaking of, Close Combat and Stone Edge are for Terrakion's incredible STAB combos, X-Scissor is to hit Psychic-types such as Espeon for more outstanding damage, and Rock Slide is there simply because Terrakion literally can use any other move in this slot. I had Sacred Sword at first to not worry about Close Combat's stat drop, but as I said, I got fed up with Stone Edge's accuracy. To the point I had Rock Slide, just when I needed a Rock-type move for a kill on a weakened target.


    Former Tentacruel (open)

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]T-Pain[​IMG]
    T-Pain (Tentacruel) (M) @ Black Sludge [​IMG]
    Trait: Liquid Ooze
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Knock Off
    - Rapid Spin​

    Up next, we have our primary Rain counter, a Specially Defensive Tentacruel. Tentacruel is an excellent Pokemon to have on this team, as he can check such common Pokemon on Rain Offense, such as Keldeo and Tornadus, which can be huge threats to this team otherwise. Again, this is another standard spread, with Max HP and Max Special Defense in order for maximum walling potential. The 0 IV's in HP are to ensure Tentacruel takes minimum damage from confusion. We went with Liquid Ooze over the standard Rain Dish in order to mess up those with Leech Seed and Giga Drain. Scald is the crux of this set, with that 30% Burn rate plus STAB, it can cripple most physical attackers in OU, such as Scizor and Breloom. Ferrothorn is also an important threat to burn, so we can stall it out. We chose Sludge Bomb to get supereffective damage on the aftermentioned Breloom while also possibly getting Poisoning along the way, allowing us to wear down certian threats. Knock Off is an interesting move, as it helps us cripple those, who otherwise might give us trouble, such as Chansey, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Politoed, and a whole lot more, as they are absolutely crippled without their items, limiting their walling capabilities. Rapid Spin is obvious on Tentacruel, since our whole team is vulnerable to hazards, so it's clear that Rapid Spin be run on this Tentacruel.





    ------------------------------
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Patias[​IMG]
    Patias (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb [​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 Hp / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Recover
    - Surf
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock​

    And last but not least, Latias holds the current slot as the 6th member of this Pokemon team. We've done some testing since we both built this team, and our first candidate for the final team slot was bulky SD Scizor. It was quite an excellent Pokemon, but the team was HEAVILY weak to opposing Dragons, especially Lati@s carrying HP Fire. As a result, we switched to SubCM Jirachi, as it had bulk to handle most Dragons to some degree, and had good defensive synergy with Landorus-T and Rotom-W saving its exploitable Ground weakness, and Haxorus, Tentacruel, and Rotom-W also resisting fire moves. Unfortunately, Jirachi had some trouble setting up, even against some Dragons, and the team was still incredibly prone to Mamoswine if not moreso. Not only that, but it shared two common weaknesses with Magneton, which put more weight upon the rest of the team. So as a result, Dr. Ciel suggested Latias, to serve as the second Dragon to this team. Latias' purpose is to break walls and wear them down with its powerful offensive movepool to make sweeping easier in the long run for Haxorus. The EV Spread is a bit non-standard for an offensive Latias, but this one is meant for more bulk in general, as the EVs in HP help survive things such as Venusaur's +2 Sludge Bomb, especially when considering how deadly Venusaur in sun is against this team. Maximum Speed is to ensure it outspeeds as much as it can, with the remnant of its EVs placed into SpA in order to hit as hard as possible. Even though I mentioned how I hate Life Orb, Latias does have Recover, which mitigates the recoil, and is also useful for getting HP back in the event Latias comes in and threatens an opponent enough to force it to switch. Draco Meteor is Latias' strongest STAB attack and is the ultimate attack for the purpose it serves, which is...well, wallbreaking. Psyshock is the secondary STAB move of choice in order to hit Pokemon such as Blissey much much harder than Psychic could ever hope to. Hidden Power Fire is to nail Scizor, who is always a big threat to Latias, as well as the plethora of Steel-types who give Latias trouble, as they resist both her STABs. Personally I am still somewhat iffy on her position, as the team is still getting problems from most Dragon-types, and of course, Mamoswine. One could say she is the most "expendable" member, but she is solid at the same time. I'd really like input on your opinions in that regard. Changed EV spread, as it still maintains the bulk and still hits hard like we need it to. Dragon Pulse has replaced Draco Meteor due to its nasty drawback it has. Surf has replaced Hidden Power Fire.






    [​IMG]Importable[​IMG]
    (Please keep nicknames when using the team)​

    Code:
    Blaxorus (Haxorus) (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Low Kick
    - Dragon Dance
     
    Magnus II (Magnezone) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Charge Beam
    - Substitute
     
    F.L.U.D.D. (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 232 SDef / 28 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split
     
    Land-R-Us (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 52 Atk / 144 Def / 112 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Stealth Rock
     
    TRUCKion (Terrakion) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Sacred Sword
     
    Patias (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover
     
    






    [​IMG]Conclusion[​IMG]
    Well, we're happy that you made it this far, so congratulations for doing so. I would like to give a huge shoutout to Cool Story Brobat for making this team with me and for the awesome nicknames. Also, I want to give you a shoutout to you guys for reading this RMT. I hope you liked it, so please feel free to rate and please leave a Luvdisc [​IMG].

    Yeah, I hope you guys enjoyed this RMT, please give some criticism. This is the first time I built a team together with someone, and I think we did pretty well. It's not the PERFECT team but that's why we're all here to learn right? Anyway, thank you for reading and once again, I hope you enjoyed!

    [​IMG]Final Glance[​IMG]

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]|[​IMG]
  2. Virtuous Vice

    Virtuous Vice

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9
    To start of this rate, I have to comment on your lack of a good resistance to Dragon type. Magneton is steel type and all, but 95 base defense is mediocre at best. This is why I would strongly suggest Magnezone. It has more bulk compaired to your Magnezone and it has HP slowly growing. It even has higher attack for you. If you really think that you still need to outspeed more, I understand. The only other steel types that you will be able to speed tie with are Scizor and Metagross. But, the major problems with this is that you don't have Evolite on your Magneton. This is your choice, but I would have to say that Evolite Magneton or Sub + 3 Attack Magnezone are your best bets.

    The only other nit pick I have for you is in Tentacruel. Sludge Bomb is a particularly powerful stab for Tentacruel here, but it isn't really that good in making damage. Maybe Toxic Spikes would be more effective compaired to Sludge Bomb. You have a more spread out amount of Pokemon that get infected with Tentacruel's toxins. I love the idea of Liquid Ooze on this set. It tripped me up when I encountered it first.
  3. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,004
    Hey Ciel! Hi Brobat :O

    First off I find it very weird that I learned about that band today in school in speech class :0

    Brobat I had no idea you were working with Ciel when you told me you made this team! :0

    Anyway, super solid team; I'd only expect the best from the collaboration of the both of you! I commend you on your use of Landorus-T / Tentacruel / Latias as an effective weather counter core; I used a similar core in my past Rain team with huge success. However, I would definitely suggest that you tried a bulkier Lando-T spread of maybe 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def Adamant. This will help a lot when dealing with mainly Scarfed Terrakion and most common physical Sand sweepers. You can try different speed evs in order to outspeed certain threats such as Tentacruel. Giving it Leftovers is probably also a good idea, as it greatly extends its longevity, and Expert Belt isn't all that useful with EdgeQuake anyway.

    Other than that, I mean the team is very solid. If sun teams are problem, you can definitely try a sneaky Rain Dance on Tentacruel over Sludge Bomb or Knock Off, to catch opposing weather teams as a surprise. It can help by boosting Rotom's Hydro Pump too. If you do use Rain Dance, using Rain Dish would probably be a great idea too, as it could net you some quick recovery.

    Awesome team guys! :)
  4. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,169
    Hey, I like the look of the team, seems solid and can deal with weather well. I've only got time for a short rate, but I noticed that you have a weakness to SubSalac Garchomp. Since you are running an offensive Landorus-T, passive damage will allow Garchomp to break through it. Since Magneton is not very bulky, Garchomp can beat it even if it's using Outrage, with a 44.15% chance of 2HKOing without a boost after a layer of Spikes. A good user of SubSalac Garchomp will be able to maneuver through your team thus. This leads me to suggest two changes on the defensive end: Switch Magneton to the Eviolite variant, which shuts down Dragons much better, and change Landorus-T to a bulkier spread, which help you better resist Terrakion as well. SubSalac Terrakion is also threatening, and it can also be stopped through a bulkier Landorus-T. Hope I helped, and good luck with the team!
  5. ScoobyDoom

    ScoobyDoom

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    31
    Try out magnezone over magneton i think u could use the bulk instead of the speed. In addition u get more spec attack
    use the standard set with sub maybe run more hp investment so ferro cant break ur subs
    good luck
  6. pom

    pom

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Having just offended Brobat on Showdown by calling this Dr. Ciel's team (not knowing it was also his) I feel I should share some thoughts. I like that this team really doesn't fall into any common archetype, but still handles the big threats of OU.

    First, I agree with Electrolyte that Rain Dance Rain Dish Tentacruel could work especially since you say you are weak to Venusaur. Even though Liquid Ooze is a handy thing to have against Venusaur, changing his weather is probably the best way to handle him. Along with that, Rain Dance+Rain Dish gives Tenta a bit more recovery.

    Also, I would run a spread of 48 HP / 252 SAtk / 208 Speed with a Timid Nature on Rotom in order to outspeed +1 Dragonite.

    Finally, unless there's something specific the extra Speed does, I recommend Magnezone over Magneton for the better overall bulk, since he IS your only Steel.
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Hello there!

    Sun just looks like hell to beat. Latios, Latias, and Dragon Dance Dragonite also look like huge issues for this team, as Magneton really can't switch into Specs Meteor nor can it really do anything back.

    It's okay because I think I can sort of fix these glaring weakeness. Firstly, I really wouldn't be using Rotom-W as a scarfer in BW2 simply because its not fast enough anymore to be as useful as it was BW1. Furthermore, you say Tentacruel is there for anti-rain, but if you had bulky piviot / offensive Rotom-W with your current Latias, rain wouldn't have an easy time against you anyway. With the lack of DeoD, Tentacruel's job on teams without SR weak Pokemon is no longer required (or even wanted) anymore. Just to make sure, you mentioned Torn and Keldeo as issues, but Latias walls Keldeo and an adjustment to make Wash no longer scarfed and a bit more bulkier would fix the Torn problem without Tenta's aid. Latias also walls and beats Breloom 1v1 everyday anyday, but I do admit that the possible Spore is annoying, but Breloom would have no counters technically if it can just sleep them so you'll just have to play around that.

    Now, with the replacing of Tentacruel, I'm going to recommend you go with Life Orb Mamoswine. You mention in the introduction you like using undeused Pokemon so I feel this addition is great. It patches up the sun weakness, gives you some priority, checks Tornadus, and it can revenge the Lati twins much more easier, with Magnezone taking a few Dracos early game.

    With that said, I've already mentioned before how I want you to use a different Scarfer beyond Wash, since it really isn't that good this metagame as it was BW1. However, I really don't want to equip the choice scarf to Magneton since it wants the leftovers (since player-preference you want it to be bulky) and I really can't scarf anything else. With that said, pherhaps you could go down on the maximum speed on Wash so you can add more HP to tank Hurricane. After all, Magneton also resists Hurricane so it doesn't need to be too bulky, but some extra HP wouldn't hurt. I would reduce your speed to 224 speed EV's because it should hit 290, getting the jump on all base 80s and jumping maximum speed Adamant Gliscor, assuming that you've tricked your scarf away, you don't need the maximum investment like I suggest. Iirc, it shouldn't effect its performence or speed tier when its holding a scarf, bar the fact that other Rotom-W can now outpace you if they carry a Choice Scarf, but CS Rotom-W is low on usage so I wouldn't fret too much. You can dump the rest of the EV's into HP for some additional bulk.

    With this, I don't think losing Tentacruel makes you more prone to rain. Latias unique EV spread allows it to posses more bulk than usual, and should suffice to tnaking rain hits, especially with roost. However, there is something about Latias I'm hating right now: HP Fire. I'm really finding it useless. Magneton traps Ferrothorn, the combination of Landorus-T and Magneton beat Scizor, and Landorus-T beats the majority of Jirachi as well. Do me a favor and replace HP Fire with Surf. I would use the 72 Hp / 184 SpA / 252 Spe as you don't need all that bulk and it should tank rain hits regardless, but now you have a decent speed tier vs. other dragons.

    As for Landorus-T, I don't see the need for all that speed. I'm going to recommend you hit either 301 speed or 290 speed depending on what you want to outpace. As you know, 290 is enough to outpace all Adamant Gliscor, Timid Heatran, Jolly Mamoswine, 180 spe Celebi, most Jirachi, etc. However, 301 base speed ensures you outpace neutral max speed base 100s (like Celebi and Jirachi) and outpaces Zoroark. 301 should also outpace Modest Landorus-I, so there is always that to consider too. Invest the remainder into HP for some additonal bulk.

    Okay, now I'll discuss which Mamoswine set you should run and this rate will be done. I would run Adamant (because there isn't anything notible I can think of that you would benefit from Jolly) and go with the standard 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (Thick Fat) @ Life Orb. I would use the following attacks:

    1. Ice Shard: the priority is quite important. quite the necessary STAB as well as revenge killing.
    2. Earthquake: necessary STAB to hit opposing steel types as well as abusing its powerful attack.
    3. Icicle Spear: you need this over icicle crash to beat down on full HP Dragonite, as well as braeking Gliscor's substitutes.
    4. Superpower: this attack is needed coverage to both beat down on steel types and to hit Rotom-W.

    This is quite standard but I feel it will benefit this team greatly. I love the usage of Haxorus on this team, keep up the good work you two!

    ~ Shurtugal
    (saldy, until I'm off a proxy and get home, I can't luvdic -.-)

    OMG: I almost forgot to include: run leftovers over EB on LandyT. Whats the point of EB? Its not like it can bluff a choice set too well, especially after you reveal SR. The additional bulk is too important, especially with Terrakion everywhere.
  8. FreeFormJazz

    FreeFormJazz

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Unless you are running Eviolite I can't recommend Magneton over zone.
  9. WTFlash

    WTFlash

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    19
    true
  10. joshe

    joshe the best

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Messages:
    797
    I'm not the BIGGEST fan of this team in its current state nor am I that sure on Haxorus' viability with Dragonite and Salamence being available and now that Kyurem-b is OU but I'll do my best to help you acheive a Haxorus sweep with this rate JUST because I think Haxorus is super cool!! 9.9

    Firstly, I want you to definitely use Low Kick or Taunt over Superpower on Haxorus. Superpower's drawbacks will ruin your sweep or bring you in range to be killed by any priority when at -1 or -2. Low Kick still shits all over Ferrothorn and Taunt can help you beat stall and set up on certain defensive mons if you want.

    You HAVE to use Magnezone over Magneton if you want to continue using the subcharge version. There really isn't anything it has going for it other than it's 10 base speed faster which shouldn't matter under a substitute. Magnezone has more power and more bulk which is greatly needed in taking down steel types and even tanking an outrage or draco meteor in a pinch.

    I also want you to go for a Specially Defensive Rotom-w over your current scarf version. you have a ton of trouble vs rain and sun teams already and this would help somewhat by giving you a solid offensive pivot along with landorus-t. Specially defensive rotom should still be able to defeat Mamoswine by Will-o-Wisping it and hydroing if it still wants to stay in. You'll have to play a little more carefully as Stone Edge or Superpower have a chance to 2HKO but every other move does little or next to no damage to you which means you'll beat it nearly every time or cripple whatever switches in on you. I'm a huge fan of the chesto rest version but nearly any specially defensive version with will-o-wisp, volt switch and hydro pump works

    Show Hide
    Rotom-w @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 232 SDef / 28 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Rest / Pain Split


    Use a standard defensive Landorus-T with leftovers over your current version as well. Terrakion can give your team a lot of trouble if your opponent is repeatedly Stone Edging your current Landorus or baiting you into switching Latias in and then killing your Latias with Tyranitar which forces you to bend over while Terrakion tears your team apart. Use either the standard EVs on site or these next two. 200 HP / 160 Def / 148 Spd with a Jolly nature outpaces Adamant Lucario which also hurts your team quite a bit OR 200 HP / 52 Atk / 144 Def / 112 Spd with an Impish nature which gives you the same bulk as the standard defensive landorus-t onsite and lets you outspeed max speed tyranitar and everything that tries out speed that by a few points, namely, tentacruel, celebi, and jirachi. Defensive Landorus-t provides an excellent offensive pivot that pairs excellently with Specially defensive Rotom-w. It still has enough attack to have a 75ish% chance to OHKO +1 Dragonite after SR with Stone Edge and deal 80ish% to Celebi with U-turn.

    Now I want you to get rid of Tentacruel for a few reasons. firstly none of your team is really hazard weak other than haxorus which doesn't really mind toxic spikes all that much due to its sheer sweeping power at +1 and you should already have killed their steel types and counters to haxorus with the rest of your team for a nice clean sweep. It seems you only placed tentacruel on this team to try to counter breloom and special walls like chansey which I don't feel is very needed. You would be much better off with something else, possibly Choice Band Scizor or Choice Scarf Keldeo. With Rotom-w being Specially Defensive now you are left without a revenge killer and check to fast things. Scizor or Keldeo help accomplish that. It's up to you which one to use but i'd suggest you try them both out and see what works best. Scizor can help you by scouting steel types directly into Magnezone or beating down stuff like opposing tentacruel and Hippowdon and helping to constantly keep that offensive moment up. Bullet Punch helps vs a ton of stuff but im sure you know what Scizor does. Keldeo offers speed, revenge killing and lategame cleaning of sorts. It also helps alot vs rain and even sun once you get rid of venusaur / sawsbuck. Again it's up to you to choose but I feel either of these pokemon would fit well in place of tentacruel.

    Finally, give Latias more Special attack (pretty sure a dude above me gave a spread) and get rid of Hidden Power [Fire] for Surf. HP-fire is incredibly weak in the rain and Magnezone should be taking care of most of the steel types that could ever harm Latias or Haxorus either by you decisively double switching into that steel type or doing whatever. Surf also helps you against Tyranitar and Heatran who Magnezone can't beat and still does decent damage to Specially Defensive Jirachi in the rain.

    Good luck with your team!
  11. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    943
    Hi there Dr Ciel,

    This team has a lot of problems vs Volcarona under the sun, given that your water attacks are nerfed and it can outspeed/ko your main sun check in Latias. Rotom-W takes 88-104% from +1 Bug Buzz, requiring it to be at full health even to Trick, whereas Hydro Pump is nowhere near a KO. Tentacruel is obviously too weak to KO it in sun or weatherless and is eventually beaten by its boosted attacks; it's not a very great check overall. Aside from that, everything else is OHKO'd by +1 Volc under the sun, which you have no means of changing. Haxorus also looks somewhat problematic for your team, ironically enough. It can nab a Dragon Dance on Magneton or Tentacruel and then proceed to wreck the team afterwards, as your only steel can't really touch it and your scarfer is outsped and killed after Haxorus is at +1. You can play around with Landorus-T and intimidate but you're still really pressed to stop it, given that you don't have any dragon resists that can hit it back. Scarfmence is threatening in the same vein later in the game, though it requires a bit more support. Latios looks pretty bad for this team as well; the poor dragon resist in magneton problem is the culprit for this weak also; psyshock/dmeteor/surf combo is p hard for this team to switch into. Anyways this can definitely be remedied. I recommend using a Scarfed Terrakion over your Landorus-T to patch up the massive weakness to Volc. Scarfed Terrakions is one of the fastest and strongest scarfers in the game and is probably the best check to Volcarona out there. After this I'd also probably change Rotom-W to a Chestorest version to give it more bulk to check stuff like Landorus, Mamoswine and Scizor while removing the redundancy of having 2 scarfers. Finally, I suggest replacing Tentacruel with an offensive Jirachi to reliably set sr and lure in and smash walls for your physical sweepers to beat. It provides you with another check and resist to dragons which is very beneficial to this team and helps maintain offensive presence. Gl.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 88 Atk / 220 SAtk / 200 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Iron Head
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Punch / Thunderbolt

    Change Summary:
    Rotom-W>Chestorest
    Landorus-T>Scarf Terrak

    ill post complete sets later if you want but theyre just standarrd except rachi and its 4 am lol
  12. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,338
    Yo!

    Looking at your team sun absolutely wrecks you. Latias is your only sun check and should it faint or be put asleep by Venasaur you are in for a lot of troubles as nothing else on your team can really stop the speed of chlorophly sweepers and the boosted Fire-type moves. As Honus mentioned Volcarona is a huge threat who is also commonly found on sun teams. With Quiver Dance / Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz it has the potential to run through your team. Dragon-types are also a huge issue because essentially any Dragon with Earthqauke can get around Magneton and also threaten your two dragon sweepers and your whole team. The number 1 threat is Scarf Salamence who with Outrage / Dragon Claw / Earthqauke / Fire Blast is capable of sweeping your team late game, beat your only Steel-type and of course outspeed and threaten your dragons.

    To help with these problems somewhat Air Balloon Heatran>Landorus-T is not a bad idea. With Heatran and Latias you have sun covered pretty well due to theri nice resistances and Sleep Clause only lets Venasaur put one of them asleep letting you use the other to check it. With Air Balloon intact it resists all of Salamences moves and can beat it with Hidden Power Ice. It also resists all of Volcarona's coverage moves which is great. Heatran can also use Stealth Rock to make up for it by losing Landorus-T. He also forms the Latitran core with Latias and can use its Fire-type stab to help remove Steel-types for your sweepers.

    Good luck with the team I hope I helped!

    Sets
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Balloon | Flash Fire
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Fire Blast | Earthpower | Hidden Power Ice

    TL;DR
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    Landorus-T--->Heatran



    ~Superpowerdude
  13. Heist

    Heist
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,328
    leftovers magneton man....

    liquid ooze tentacruel
  14. Cygnis

    Cygnis

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Sup CoolStoryBrobat & Dr Ciel
    Awesome team you have. I like the use of Haxorus and Magneton. The big problem in this team is the weakness to sun teams. Venasaur plows through this team even a 2HKO on Latias with Sludge bomb at +2 so you can't switch in. Volcarona sweeps the entire team and you only scarfer can't revenge kill it and is smacked by Bug Buzz, not only that but its STAB is weakened in the sun. Lastly is Latios. Latios breezes through this team by KOing Haxorus, Tentacruel, and Latias (loses speed tie because of Hidden Power [Fire]. Landorus-T is OHKOed of by Rain-boosted Surf or not rain, Rotom Washes HP [Ice] won't break past a healthy one, and Magneton is sitting there like crap SPAMming Subs till it can't and loses. The Life Orb sets are the most deadly to this team.

    Rotom-W is a pretty mediocre scarfer in today's metagame because it is outsped by one point by DD and QD users and both its STABs are taken care of by a grass-type (getting more common every weekend), ground-type giving the other team momentum because you are choice locked and same with Water Absorb, Storm Drain, Dry Skin. Rotom-W also reveals its scarf pretty easily because its going to revealed when they see Hidden Power [Ice], your faster than a base 95 or whatever. I recommend running the Choice Specs set. Not only are you a better bluff and stronger, you also don't have to worry about hitting hard because the immediate power granted lets you break walls. Choice Specs also lets you hit Latios and the addition of Latias harder. Shurtugal is right about Hidden Power [Fire]. You always lose the speed tie now against Lati@s and Gengar, rain is taking over sandstorm's throne, and other pokemon take care of steels. Surf is a much better substitute. The last thing is switching Landorus-T ===> Heatran. Heatran checks sun teams and all the weaknesses you struggle with. Also, rain teams are also checked by Tentacruel so you can find a way to get past both. Great team and good luck!

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Air Balloon | Flash Fire
    Timid | 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Earth Power | Overheat | Hidden Power [Ice]
  15. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
    is a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2012
    Messages:
    800
    Hey, CoolStoryBrobat here (duh). I gotta say, I REALLY appreciate all the input you guys have given this thread! The minute we started getting responses I started making little minor adjustments to the team itself, and begun testing immediately. The changes are as follows:

    Show Hide
    1. [​IMG]Magneton < Magnezone.

    Everybody said Magnezone was much better and bulkier since I was running Leftovers, and I figured as much myself. So far, Magnezone has been doing justice for me, so I'm keeping it intact. Same set and EVs as Magneton formerly had.

    2. [​IMG] Low Kick > Superpower on Haxorus.

    I agree with what you said, Joshe, about Superpower. I didn't like the stat drops from Superpower as it was usually more of a "Panic Button" type deal that often resulted in Haxorus being more susceptible int he long run. I like Low Kick, and it has decent output after a Dragon Dance or two, so I'll stick with it from here on.

    3. [​IMG] Standard Bulky Landorus-T > Offensive.

    I feel kinda silly for not trying this one sooner myself, as it's actually the standard spread, so kudos to you, once again, Joshe. I went with your ideal spread of200 HP / 52 Atk / 144 Def / 112 Spd with an Impish nature and it has worked WONDERS for this team, so this one's definitely staying as is.

    4. [​IMG] Scarfed Terrakion > Tentacruel.

    Now THIS is a rather huge change overall for my team, but I honestly feel it was worth it. I took Shuturgal's advice to try Life Orb Mamoswine, and I went with it for a while, and it was doing great as I had strong priority to take advantage of and excellent coverage, but for the most part my team still heavily was demolished (and so to speak, still am) by Sun Teams. What made Scarfed Terrakion so appealing was that with Jolly nature, it outsped Timid Volcarona at +1 and neutral-natured Venusaur in sun, and had the capability of inflicting big dommage (specifically an OHKO on Volcarona) on both, which is excellent for a revenge killer. Not only this but in general Terrakion's power is greatly appreciated, as save for Latias, my team is still somewhat on the middling slower side. It also allowed me to take on Dragonite and surprise them with a nice Stone Miss after factoring Stealth Rock damage. As good as this guy is, he's not able to save me if a Volcarona hits +2 Speed, or if Venusaur happens to run a +Speed nature. Latias can only take so much from Venusaur provided it hasn't used a Growth before hitting with Sludge Bomb. Also, the super-rare stray +Speed Victreebel will absolutely wreck me, coincidentally enough.

    5. [​IMG] Specially Defensive Rotom-W > Scarfed Rotom-W.

    Seeing as I just installed a Scarfer to the team, Rotom's revenge-killing capabilities were no longer needed. This suggestion was brought on by a couple of people, so I'm running with the spread of 248 HP/232 SDef/28 Speed with Hydro Pump, Volt Switch, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split. My team lacked a dedicated special wall, which is now Rotom-W and I gotta say it works wonders.

    6. [​IMG]Dragon Pulse + Surf > Draco Meteor + HP Fire on Latias, 72 HP/184 SAtk/252 Speed > 112 HP/144 SAtk/252 Speed on Latias.

    I took Shuturgal's advice here and can't complain. I like the added power of the EV Spread I'm currently running. I pulled Draco Meteor simply because it limits Latias' staying power and really can ease things for the opponent if they can play around it properly. I felt Dragon Pulse was more consistent and easy to work with compared to the recoil of Draco Meteor. Surf is extremely useful, especially against opposing Gliscor, who I noticed can give this team some real trouble, specifically the stall-oriented Gliscor set with Earthquake/Toxic/Substitute/Protect. Latias is the only Pokemon on this team that can outspeed and hit it with a super-effective move, as Rotom-W is outsped and susceptible to being stalled out of Hydro Pumps.



    Those are baiscally all the changes I've made thus far. I still don't feel this team is "perfect", and to counter sun I've seen some suggestions to run offensive Heatran, who does in fact wreck Sun entirely. What I'm worried about though, aside from HP Ground Volcarona/Earthquake Venusaur/Nature Power Sawsbuck (all very rare, though Volcarona is somewhat uncommon with HP Ground from my experience), is that without Landorus and its handy Intimidate, I feel I'm susceptible to other threats, such as Breloom. But I'm not 100% sure on it, I'm sure we'd both like some more feedback based on these changes I've made.
  16. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    410
    I love that SDef Tentacruel. I started playing pokemon again last month, and noticed that having Defense on my Tentacruel wasn't beneficial at all (well at least for my team). Nice to see I wasn't completely mad as someone actually good thinks similar ;).

    Oh I forgot Tenta got Knock Off, thanks for reminding me!

    Interesting Magneton, nice to see people not sticking to the bog standard.
  17. Killua kun

    Killua kun

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    team really cute though, has many flaws in the current metagame.
    A metagame dominated by dragons, laughs in the face of your pokemon, especially latios that can kill a Pokemon in turn, and also remember that you must have to do with various stall team so you need constant support.
    We start from the trapping of your magneton is weak, rain under your hp fire has virtually no effect on ferrothorn, Jirachi and Magnezone, so you recommend a alternative that will give you a free slot then that Dugtrio.

    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Reversal
    - Aerial Ace

    Of course there are other reasons that the trapping of your latias from the pursuit of TTar with this pokemon you put the safety of the rocks trap types arial ace steel and will give you a hand to get rid of Breloom.
    With a free slot you can remove Landorus-Therian that it is useless, and put Jirachi to support your team by dragons and help everyone with wish + u-turn and u-turn can be used to help block Magnezone whit Trio.

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Careful Nature (+ SDef,-SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Ice Punch
    - Wish
    - Protect

    For your tentacruel the set is unpredictable, but with those evs'll never hit anyone uses these:
    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Liquid Ooze
    EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spd
    Bold Nature (+ Def,-Atk)
    - Scald
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Knock Off
    - Rapid Spin

    IV: Atk 0

    With these Evs you make sure to outsppedding Breloom, and adamant Mamoswine then hit them hard.
    Tom-W is fine, although I'd rather see the move trick, Pain split> hp ice.
    Now stay weak only conkeldurr, then modify the set of latias to take advantage!

    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 112 HP / 144 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+ Spd,-Atk)
    - Recover
    - Reflect Type
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psychic
    IV: Atk 0

    This set is better than yours, this latias will help you to never target supperffective move and prey TTar, Reflect type will save you from everything. Psychic> psyshock because if you do erdi latias conkeldurr 6-0 and this spread will help you kill it forever.
    144 SpAtk Life Orb Latias Psychic vs 120 HP/146 SpDef Conkeldurr: 96,06% - 113,39% (75% chance to OHKO)

    Hope that helps, with these fixes you will find more than good GL
  18. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,265
    OP updated with all the changes posted by CoolStoryBrobat, also importable updated. Would enjoy more feedback and maybe some more Lucdisc (:

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