In Game Tiers, Platinum Edition!!

[pi face]

some arguments here are like... "what?". If the objective is not to waste ANY time (Close Combat defenses drop and Intimidate, seriously? It's not like sandstream or something that is there every turn), start with Chimchar, use it and it only for all the game, since raising other pokemon "wastes time".

correct me if I'm wrong, I believe this thread is not about a speed run, because if it was, the only pokemon you would need are Infernape and Bidoof. Nothing else. I believe it is about the efficiency of all the pokemon (like sweeping the E4 single handedly), which in my opinion, both Gyarados and Scyther deserve an S rank no matter what.

 

[pkmn1000]

I don't get all this IV/EV thing in-game. Its useless. It wastes time, and i defeated the Elite 4 with 6 level 45's, all trained in game, without giving a toss about IV's. Natures can be useful or hinderances, but im not going to go and catch another Gible because its got "a crappy nature". I just get on with it.

Sriously if you have a modest staraptor with 0 ivs in atk and speed you can still sweep with it ingame. I think that most smogoners are so fussy with the mechanics they forget to have fun in the games.

 

[McGrrr]

A level 44 Gyarados can easily sweep the elite four almost single-handedly, with support only for Mr Mime. Can the others do the same at those levels?

I agree with this point. However, by the time you reach the E4, your Pokemon will realistically be at higher levels. True, a level 55 Gyarados does the same job, but something else at level 60+ would be as efficient.

pi face: efficiency and not wasting time go hand in hand. The latter merely goes further. Only using one Pokemon would be a polar extreme. I highlighted the unnecessary delays that you can choose not to put up with, by avoiding certain Pokemon.

pkmn1000: it is not a lot of effort to look for half decent IVs, and by doing so, it makes the game noticeably easier. To argue that anything could potentially beat the game is besides the point.

 

[pkmn1000]

Dont ivs only matter when your at lv 100? even so what difference would a 167 attack staraptor and a 189 attack staraptor make ingame?

 

[petrie911]

How is it useful when you just murder everything in one-two hits? Taking in game damage will never matter, unless you are under leveled. Therefore, intimidate is a waste.

Because most things that you don't hit SE will go down in 2 hits or more. And that means they get a shot at you. That damage will add up, especially in Scyther's case with its huge number of weaknesses.

Incidentally, what exactly would you consider underleveled?

Fly has no value in battle, because it can 1) miss and 2) takes 2 turns - another time waster. The argument for HM whoring is not sound either, because Scyther can reasonably run 3 HMs, and there are plenty of Pokemon with access to fly + other HMs (e.g. Giratina).

5% miss chance is negligible, and it gives Staraptor a 90BP Flying move. 2 turns is really nothing, and Return is your primary attack anyways. Meanwhile, not using HM slaves is idiotic. Why stick your main pokemon with useless moves when you can just bag a Bidoof and a Bibarel to have 6 out of the 7 useful HMs?

There is no difference between BB and Scyther's WA. They will both OHKO everything. Therefore, the recoil is time wasting in two ways; directly, and also forcing you to heal more often.

They'll OHKO everything? You must be seriously overlevelled. Anything with a reasonable amount of defense not being hit SE will generally take at least 2 hits. Though Brave Bird will have a much better chance at scoring OHKOs.

I am not suggesting that you go for great IVs, but certainly something reasonably good (16+ attack and speed) is fine to aim for.

16+ can be easily checked at level 5, and Starly is much easier to catch than Scyther. If you want to do this, Starly has the advantage.

Or you could... trade? Or go on an abra catching spree on the rainy route? It is all optional anyway.

Hmm, didn't realize we allowed trading. Though I specifically did not mention Abra because they're even harder to catch than Ralts, and unlike Ralts, you can't tell in advance which ones have Synchronize.

The extra lines from CC's side effect is another time waster. Scyther does enough with its own fighting options, with or without swords dance - consider that CC and rock smash are only used when super effective. Electric pokemon have low defense, or you could just use something else.

Switching takes time, too, you know, as does using SD. Staraptor can also deal with Electrics through STAB Return (or, of course, CC for Magneton). Scyther's fighting options consist of Rock Smash and Brick Break, which is quite frankly awful.

No. With Tech, Scyther only needs wing attack. Late game, it also has swords dance access. It sets up and sweeps. They are both S, but Scyther is the most S tier Pokemon in this generation.

And late-game, Staraptor just sweeps. No setup needed (which, what do you know, takes time, too). Scyther has a good early game, but it gets rather mediocre in the middle to late game. While its offense is acceptable with Swords Dance, it doesn't get that until level 57, which you may not even be at when you get to the E4.

You really seem to overestimate Scyther's usefulness. Again, I could see it joining Chimchar and Starly in S-tier, but it's not "the most S-tier Pokemon in this generation". It's doubtful it's better than Starly, and Chimchar is clearly better.

 

[Eraddd]

Actually I should just mention that *anything* with "slow" experience gain should be avoided. All such Pokemon should be limited to tier B at best.

Consider; for the same experience it takes to level Gyarados to 44 (dragon dance), you could have a level 47 Staraptor, a level 48 Scyther or a level 51 Togekiss.

Gyarados at lvl 44 should be able to compete with a lvl 47 staraptor a lvl 48 scyther. Lvl 51 Togekiss shouldn't be even on the list because it's shit hard to get it in the first place. Look at their strengths.

 

[McGrrr]

Petrie, I have no beef with you. You're digressing now, and for whatever reason picking an argument. I felt that my points were pretty succinct and clear, but nevermind. I don't think you've ever used Scyther.

Eraddd, those were arbitrary examples of Pokemon with different experience gain formulae.

Edit:

Dont ivs only matter when your at lv 100? even so what difference would a 167 attack staraptor and a 189 attack staraptor make ingame?

IVs affect stat calculation at any level. In your example, a difference of 22 represents a >13% discrepancy in damage output.

 

[mgbguy]

Edit:

IVs affect stat calculation at any level. In your example, a difference of 22 represents a >13% discrepancy in damage output.

Damage discrepancy isn't as big of a deal in-game as it is competitively, even on frail Staraptor. Modest nature would REALLY hurt, but a few lost IVs is forgiveable when everything in-game is easy to beat.

On the topic of Staraptor, maybe it was just my play style, but when I used Staraptor in Pearl, it only made it to lv. 45 before I retired it from heavy play, before it even got Brave Bird; since I had Infernape, Staraptor's best use was against Fighting-types, and after those disappeared late-game, Staraptor lost its use. I skipped over Staraptor in my Plat playthrough, so maybe it has more late-game use in Platinum now.

 

[Birdy [old]]

You make a good argument for Scyther > Staraptor. Both have their advantages, but imo I think that Staraptor is just better than Scyther here.

-Scythers are only caught in a single route, and depending on the time of day, has a low encounter rate. (althou you could just set the time I guess) Starlys are found EVERYWHERE in the game, and you can even encounter Staravias in the same route that you can catch Scythers in. Not to mention that you have to get the right nature for Scyther too.

-Scyther is better when you FIRST get it, then from there on, Staraptor outshines Scyther. Scyther > Staraptor end-game thou, because Scizor is so very useful in game, and Swords Dance let it sweep, while Staraptor doesn't have a useful stats up move at all. During the mid game period (before Elite 4 at least) it's mainly about the attack with the highest base power to mow down the random trainers. This is why Staraptor > Scyther during the mid game. Speaking of attacks, Staraptor uses Return for his main attack. I rarely use Brave Bird, simply because there is no need for it during the late game when you get it.

-No one said it was a Speed run, so I fail to see why one or two extra lines of dialogue matters too much in game. If I'm speed running, I'll probably just be training my Chimchar only, with HM slaves in my team.

-Intimidate's always useful (especially if you're not a hardcore speed runner and is just a casual player with 6mons on your team) for setting up your other mons, especially with the Revive-Intimidate thing.

-HM's shouldn't matter, just use Bidoof,Giratina... for your HM slaves.

 

[Reaver12]

Tier C addition:

Tropius- relatively easy to catch in the Great Marsh (though only during the day, which I learned after spending several nights looking for it) and is a great HM Slave if you chose not to raise a Starly and have no one to Fly. He's entirely useless in battles though.

 

[Brambane]

A couple of Pokemon i used on my playthrough. Since I have only have one copy of Plat though, and all my "good" Pokemon are in there, I'm stuck using Pearl for ingame :(

Skorupi - C rank - It levels up slow, evolves into Drapion at level 40, and Pin Missle is your strongest level up move until level 34, when it gets Bug Bite. That makes Skorupi pretty bad. Drapion is fairly good, however, if you get it. Crunch, Cross Poison, and the Elemental Fangs are nice, and it can learn Earthquake if you want something stronger than Fire Fang for Steels. Dark/Poison is a fairly good typing, and Bryon is the only Gym that should cause it trouble. Also, Sniper is pretty cool with Cross Poison. Levels up too slow and evolves too late to be better, though.

Tropius - C Rank - Good defenses, and access to Eathquake, Air Slash, Synthesis and Leaf Storm is nice. The ability to learn 5 HMs makes it a great HM slave, too. However, it's Attack, Speed, and Special Attack are bit too low to be B rank imo.

Scyther - S rank - It is available right before Maylene, at around level 20, which is a little low, but not too bad. If you get Technician, Wing Attack is very strong. False Swipe makes it great for catching other Pokemon, and it natually learns Swords Dance, Night Slash and X-scissor. Unless you trade it, it will have trouble with the last three gyms though. If you do evolve it into Scizor, use a Heart Scale to teach it Bullet Punch and you have a monster. It can single handily take down Candice's Gym, and most of team Galatic has trouble with it thanks to it's Steel-typing (Houndour and Flamethrower Skuntank are trouble though). X-scissor also makes it great against Lucian. Just avoid Fire moves like the plague, and Scizor should do fine.

Magby/Magmar - A rank - The best fire-type after Chimchar and maybe Houdour imo. It doesn't even need to evolve into Magmortar to be good. You need to get to Surf to the Fuego Ironworks to catch Magmar. It can be caught at level 29, which is fairly low compared to the rest of your Pokemon. However, if you teach it Flamethrower through TM or Lava Plume at level 36, it will destroy Bryon's and Candice's gyms. It's learns mostly Fire moves from leveling up, which is bad. It can learn Thunderpunch from the tutor though. If you evolve it into Magmortar, it gains the ability to learn T-bolt. Magmar is fairly fast (faster than it's evo, which is base 83) and has strong attacking stats. I would say it's S rank, but it's level up movepool is too shallow and you get it a bit late for it to be better, though. A great ingame Pokemon overall.

Carnivine - D rank - It's not terrible, but Tangela, Turtwig, Budew and maybe Tropius are so much better. It's level up movepool is pretty barren, since it only learns Dark- and Grass-type attacking moves. Stockpile is neat, but not useful on something like Carnivine. If you breed it, you can get Sleep Powder, but Tangela get's it from a Heart Scale, so why bother? Its Attack and Sp.Att are nice, but it's slow as hell and has few special moves to use. It is pretty much the worst grass-type in the game. It does look cool, however, and that must count for something ingame, right?

edit: for some reason, i only saw the posts on page 1. Now i feel like i'm saying what has already been said :(

 

[Baztard]

I agree with this point. However, by the time you reach the E4, your Pokemon will realistically be at higher levels.
quote]

not exactly? I took on the pokemon league with 6 level 45's, no legendaries, all trained in game. The E4 is a pushover until you get to Cynthia.

 

[Black Buddha]

Thats quite underlevelled IMO, when I took on E4 I was at around 55 - 60 with 4 pokemon ( Infernape, Gliscor, Yanmega, Octillery )

 

[Baztard]

I stop battling wild pkmn after the 2nd badge. I just use trainer battles. I still beast the E4 though :)

 

[pkmn1000]

People should start using porygon i mean you can get a porygpn-z at like lv 25 beforee the thrid gym and then just sweep the whole game with it.
so porygon-A

 

[RBG]

People should start using porygon i mean you can get a porygpn-z at like lv 25 beforee the thrid gym and then just sweep the whole game with it.
so porygon-A

You can't get the Dubious Disk or P-Z until after you to team Galactic's base after Gym 7.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

People should start using porygon i mean you can get a porygpn-z at like lv 25 beforee the thrid gym and then just sweep the whole game with it.
so porygon-A

You can't get the Dubious Disk or P-Z until after you to team Galactic's base after Gym 7.

and you can't ALWAYS trade with somebody. Some people live in a part of the "world" as we know it where nobody else plays it (Me D:)

 

[iss]

You can use the GTS glitch.

 

[Eraddd]

Thats quite underlevelled IMO, when I took on E4 I was at around 55 - 60 with 4 pokemon ( Infernape, Gliscor, Yanmega, Octillery )

I was level 50 with 4 of my guys, and lvl 45 with 2 of my guys. Not very hard to take down the Elite 4. For Garchomp, just use intimidate to pull down its attack, and just DD in it's face (alternated between Staraptor, and Gyarados with intimidate, helped that giga impact gives me an extra turn to switch.)

 

[The_Coon]

I think Ralts should be A-List. You get it early on in the game and unlike Gastly and Abra you don't have to wait to trade or use the GTS glitch before it can achieve it's final form. Gardevoir is great, not as good as Gengar and Alakazam, but they're, as I said before, pretty inaccessible for a while. If you don't want Gardevoir then evolve it into Gallade instead, who learns Swords Dance at 25 and Psycho Cut, his main STAB, at 31. Have to wait til 51 for Close Combat though, but that's not too bad.


Also I know this is rather selective but I think the PBR Pikachu should be A-List or S-List. The reason being is for both of my games (Platinum and Diamond) I obtained the PBR Pikachu right at the start and it was amazing. Gyms aren't that much of a problem cos it knows Surf and can be taught Grass Knot (although Infernape or someone else would probably appreciate it more) as well as Volt Tackle.

 

[pkmn1000]

Though if you have PBR why didnt you use its electivire/magmortar?

 

[MegaMewtwo]

Though if you have PBR why didnt you use its electivire/magmortar?

Most likely because at Lv50, they're going to take a while to be obedient. You get the Pikachu at Lv10 so it's easier to keep under control. I'd definitely say that PBR Pikachu doesn't deserve a high rank though, on account of obedience issues.

 

[Age of Kings]

Digressing a bit, am I the only one who goes through the game with only my starter and HM slaves? Isn't that the best way to go through speedruns since using nothing else means you don't have to waste time catching crap and leveling it up separately? (I can say by experience that just going through the battles you have to translates into a ~lv 70 overleveled starter by the time you get to the E4)

(and which also defeats the entire purpose of the tier list because I don't use or need anything else :/)

 

[Quaily]

I like gardevoir and all, but ralts is pretty bad in game. All it does is eat up exp(and it takes more exp to level) until lv30. Espeon will evolve a lot faster with the soothe bell, and end up being stronger overall because it takes 25% less exp.

 

[Seriin]

I like gardevoir and all, but ralts is pretty bad in game. All it does is eat up exp(and it takes more exp to level) until lv30. Espeon will evolve a lot faster with the soothe bell, and end up being stronger overall because it takes 25% less exp.

But you're missing something, Espeon's best moves are all TM's, move tudor, or high level (or egg, but who breeds before endgame?) And it doesn't learn some of the key moves you are able to teach to Garde. Things like t-bolt, t-wave and hell even Magical Leaf.

Espeon is a bit more like Alakazam given that the ideal moveset is Psychic/Shadow Ball/~/~. Calm Mind and maybe Signal Beam would probably go there but they are both unattainable (for Espeon) before the E4, seeing as how Espy doesn't learn CM naturally. Alakazam and Espy do the exact same job, and Alakazam does it much better.

Kirlia and Eevee should both be treated in sort of the same light. You evolve it into what you need, however Eevee has so many better options than Espeon where Kirlia comes down to Special Attacker, Physical Attacker or storage space.

Beyond that, leveling up faster is cancelled out by the fact that you need high happiness for it to evolve, and it has to be during the day. Sure a soothe bell might help it gain happiness faster, but Ralts just gained that 25% exp in a fight or two while you're still biking around with Eevee in the party. And if you fight and level up Eevee to gain said happiness you're now passing over what few level up moves Espy does get and there goes a heart scale if you want it back.

Sorry if this sounded harsh, but Espeon can't take the place of Gardevoir because they are capable of different things, and the role they do share is much easier filled by Garde and both are blown away by Alakazam.


[EDIT: Espeon get Psychic at: Level 64 or after the 7th gym (rock climb needed) or at 10,000 coins (200,000bucks). Alakazam is level 40, and Ralts 28 (Gardevoir 33)]