Iron Defense Arceus-Fairy (QC 2/3) Writeup done

[Aberforth]

[SET]
name: Iron whatnow?
move 1: Iron Defense
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Judgement
item: Pixie Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 248HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Iron Defense is the main reason to use this set, beating both Primal Groudon that do not carry Swords Dance as well as Ho-oh in just one moveslot, something Fairy Arceus cannot do otherwise. Calm Mind allows Fairy Arceus to boost its Special Attack and Special Defense stats, boosting both its damage output and its bulk at the same time. Recover allows Fairy Arceus to heal off damage it takes so that it can continue to set up, as well as giving Fairy Arceus the opportunity to set up multiple times during a game. Judgement is the offensive move of choice, with it offering decent neutral coverage along with high base power.

Set Details
========

248 HP EVs are used to give Fairy Arceus the most general bulk on both sides of the physical and special spectrums, while minimising entry hazard damage. 252 Speed EVs are used so that Fairy Arceus can outspeed common threats like Latios and Mega Lucario so that it can set up before they attack, while offering a good speed to sweep from after setting up. This much speed investment also means it at worst speed ties with other Arceus formes. 8 Defense EVs are used so that Genesect gets a Special Attack Boost rather than an Attack boost if it comes in on Fairy Arceus before it has set up. Timid is the nature of choice to outspeed threats like Mega Lucario and Timid Latios, and enables Fairy Arceus to speed tie with other Arceus formes.

Usage Tips
========

Do not risk Fairy Arceus getting crippled with Toxic. After clearing the field of Fairy Arceus’s checks, bring it in on something slower than it. Once it is in, it can set up in whichever defensive stat is more beneficial, while recovering off damage, until it becomes too bulky to take down. Do not be afraid to use Fairy Arceus multiple times in the game, it can afford to take hits and still be able to sweep lategame. This Arceus can check some powerful special attackers without requiring setup, such as Diancie, Yveltal and Darkrai, by virtue of its typing and natural bulk. It should not be conserved if there are no better switch ins to these pokemon, as it can still set up late game and sweep even if it takes hits from them. This set can check Salamence providing there are no hazards on the field, easily OHKOing with a super effective Judgement, while being able to take a +1 Double Edge. Despite being bulky, this set cannot switch in to the most powerful of attackers, even if it can set up on them, so play somewhat more conservatively against very offensive teams. If Fairy Arceus can come in on something resulting in a burn, it can no longer be effected by Toxic, and can become more dangerous, so if a Groudon has shown Lava Plume or Ho-oh is likely to use Sacred fire, it can be worth taking the damage so as to enable Arceus-Fairy to sweep lategame. By this same principle, this is a fantastic switch in to Sableye against stall teams.


Team Options
========

Pokemon that beat Klefki are an absolute must with Fairy Arceus. Good examples are Rest Talk Kyogre, various Groudon sets, Ho-oh, Gothitelle, Excadrill, Landorus-Therian and Mega Gengar. Aside from Klefki, other steel types annoy Fairy Arceus, and so having good steel type answers is highly recommended. This means Ground and Fire types like Excadrill and Ho-oh are welcome support. Pursuit support is useful in dealing with Mega Gengar, which can otherwise OHKO Arceus-Fairy with Sludge Wave, and 2hko after a Calm Mind boost without much of a problem. Tyranitar is best at this, due to its greater bulk, but Aegislash and Mega Scizor are other options. Pokemon that can weaken Water Arceus are appreciated, as that will often carry toxic and be capable of crippling Fairy Arceus. Toxic Primal Groudon, Ho-oh, Rayquaza and Mega Salamence all do this well. This set will not be able to get past Sword Dance Primal Groudon, so having a teammate who can beat said Groudon is required. Latios, Landorus-Therian and Mega Salamence are most adept at this. Pokemon that can lure in Klefki such as Thunder Darkrai and Heat Wave Yveltal are good team members for Fairy Arceus due to how much it hates trying to face Klefki. Cleric Support is appreciated if it can be fit, as Toxic is the biggest weakness of this Fairy Arceus set. Blissey and Shaymin-S are the two most notable clerics, depending on which type of build is being used. This Fairy Arceus set can check Thunder Darkrai for a team, so having a good sleep absorber is useful so that Darkrai cannot bypass it via sleep. This set is largely self-sufficient against offense and balance teams, however it will more often than not fail to do a significant amount vs Stall teams due to the frequency of status conditions, especially toxic, on them. As such, powerful wallbreakers such as Ho-oh and Yveltal are good team support.

 

[shrang]

Too easy to stop with Toxic, IMO. I understand some teams are not prepared because they don't carry Toxic, but most teams do, so it's not like you can easily just set this up as a last mon because it's not hard to keep status to the end. You can bring it out earlier, but then you get phazed easily, and when they see you have no Refresh, it's kind of useless.

Not rejecting yet, but I'm not convinced, sorry.

 

[dice]

it's fine. makes use of fairyceus prob the best u can. i'd only use it with a klefki lure like darkrai or yveltal tho. prob could mention how this can soft check mence if sr isnt up


approved

 

[Fireburn]

It is worth noting that if you take a burn from Groudon or Ho-Oh, or some other source like Sableye then Klefki stops being a threat since it can't use Toxic.

Feels wrong to approve my own set so I'll let other QC handle this.

 

[Nayrz]

Looking at the stuff currently onsite for this mon, i see that this set will be just a set revamp to the old cm set. The support set there could be changed to the SR set, but i'd need to hear other QC opinion on it first - no point in going for a full revamp if this SR set isn't up to scratch.

As for this, i'm a fan of how it can potentially beat 5 S rank threats, and is even able to do half to Xerneas. Thats some crazy shit.

QC 2/3

 

[Aberforth]

OK then. The supportceus set is just always inferior to Dragceus and Waterceus aside from niche stuff like Special Mence or something, and I dont like the rocks set at all, but if QC want it in I'll write up that one too.

 

[Sweep]

i don't like this set nearly as much as other people here do. you just lose to status in this metagame like most other cm arceus.

agree the sr set should replace the current onsite one. i sincerely prefer the omfuga fairyceus set (CM / earth power / judgment / stone edge) to ANY of these but w/e

 

[Minority]

As of right now there are 2 Arceus-Fairy sets on dex, the old support set that some people want changed to the SR support set and the old CM set (CM / Recover / EP / Judgment).

We could finish this set and have it replace the current CM set and then get around to updating the support set later. Or we could finish this set, then do a full revamp that copy-pastes this set, redoes the support set to be SR, and add an offensive CM set which is CM / EP / Stone Edge / Judgment. This does mean there are 3 sets for a mon that isn't very good, but they are distinctly different enough to warrant this. We can still go with the first option, but I think that means we'll be sitting at the old support set + the new CM set for awhile.

I can QC check this once it is written up.

 

[Lord Outrage]

I don't want to see this Fairy Arceus set in the analysis for the following reasons:

1) It's a sweeper set, weak to Toxic AND with bad coverage. So it can not work in this metagame.

2) Other Arceus Fairy sets are definitely better and especially the 3 moves Recover set which is really good versus balance and BO. It also open up for a Xerneas sweep by weakening the checks. I'm talking from experience and testing and not from theorymon.

Now finally, some members of the QC team, while experts at older gens are not really aware of the ORAS Ubers metagame's very special mechanics. So I wonder how can those give approval to very debatable sets like this weird fairyceus set without even building around them and testing them.

 

[Inspirited]

This thing has its problems in my opinion with problem #1 being Klefki (or a niche alternative like Bronzong) + Ho-Oh. It is ineffective vs these teams due Ho-Oh forcing it to Iron Defense (revealing it as something Klefki is needed for) and Klefki scaring it every turn it comes in after. Because you are aiming to get passed Ho-Oh Pdon Waterceus balance with Iron Defense, you really need a way to get around their Steel-type with Toxic which is really hard to do without making the opponent's likely hexgar (a very large staple on Ho-Oh balance) extremely dangerous for the rest of the game (they Toxic your Pdon, Ho-Oh, or, in some cases, Pogre and all of a sudden Gengar threatens its strongest checks). This can be pivotted around sure, but the fact that you need to pivot around smartly hoping that it isn't predictable makes this mon not friendly to newer players of the tier which is who these analyses should be aimed at.

3 attacks Recover is better and more friendly to newer players who don't quite understand how Ho-Oh balance works and does the same thing vs hyper offense and bulky offense (spamming fast Fairy Judgment) only with a way to more easilly confirm a KO on a weakened Pdon and Ho-Oh. It also has a way to punish a Klefki switch harder!

The set in the OP is just not straight forward enough for newer players to understand and isn't all that great to begin with. If I had time to revamp it my way, 3 attacks recover would be the only set on the analysis with this and maybe Stealth Rock in Other Options. Its better to not upload this but instead revamp the entire analysis to make it the best it can be without a stepping stone we don't need. The work put into this is good, but the set isn't good enough imo.

Sorry but,
Rejected 1/3

 

[Aberforth]

Write up is done, probably needs work done to it cause I've finished this when sick but I wanted to get it put together quickly.

Lord Outrage, you said yourself in PS that you've never even tried this set out, please actually do so before dismissing it out of hand.

WreckDra, I disagree on the 3 moves recover set being better, even if it is easier to use for newer players, because when I tried that set I found that I'd generally prefer other Arceus Formes that can hit Primal Groudon and Ho-oh in only two move slots, such as Arceus Ice. We shouldn't deliberately put a worse set on the site for the sake of it being easier to use, or we wouldn't include Mega TTar's support set or things like Gothitelle which newer players pretty much do not know how to use correctly. We should look to have the best sets on the site. The three attacks Recover slot is completely dealt with by any supportceus variant barring dragon, with no way around them like setting up, does not offer as much of a defensive niche as this set, and will not do much of note to offenses either, given how complete setup bait it is for things like SD arcues-ground, sd arcues-ghost, every Cm arc forme ever, gengar, CM Mewtwo (both y and life orb) ext.

Klefki is a problem, I've emphasised it a lot, but there are actual ways around this. This includes stuff like being burnt (which Ho-ohs will do to most calm mind Arceus formes so that Brave Bird will 2hko) and paralysed as well as having teammates like Excadrill that completely nullify Klefki. Switching to a pokemon's designated counter is not pivoting in the sense you imply it is, but is a way of working around a pokemon's weakness so that it can sweep.

 

[Lord Outrage]

Lord Outrage, you said yourself in PS that you've never even tried this set out, please actually do so before dismissing it out of hand

It's impossible to make a solid team with it because its a horrible set. I have a very solid team with the Recover + 3 moves set which provides way more utility especially versus balance and bo while it also helps geoxern sweep.

Also, it would be cool if some qc members other than wreckdra can reject it already because this thread should have never existed in the first place.

 

[Minority]

Now finally, some members of the QC team, while experts at older gens are not really aware of the ORAS Ubers metagame's very special mechanics. So I wonder how can those give approval to very debatable sets like this weird fairyceus set without even building around them and testing them.

Responding to this because it's out of touch and makes some factually incorrect accusations. Both Dice and myself built with this mon as did some other QC members so... w/e guess I'm just an old gens player that doesn't play ORAS.

Anyways I don't consider the Toxic + niche steel weakness enough justification to reject the set because teammates exist that counter this. You know what other defensive mons have problems with Klefki, Toxic spam, and niche Steels? Lugia, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Dragon, Latias, and Mega Slowbro to name a few. I also strongly disagree with the notion of rejecting analyses on the basis that they aren't "player friendly". I've found that many newer players struggle to build and play with Mega Gengar, but we aren't about to delete that analysis so let's leave this mentality where it belongs in sample teams. Sets that require finesse to play have been on the dex for a decade.

There are much better arguments to focus on, but for some reason these haven't been stated. For example why no mention about the specific benefits that 3 Attacks + Recover has over this set? You're able to retroactively correct your problems against Ho-Oh and P Don with offensive coverage rather than being forced into this passive situation since you don't have to rely on Iron Defense. Also no mention about getting chip on things like Klefki that rely on Leftovers for recovery on switch in?

Such points aside these two sets play very differently by virtue of one being setup with no coverage and the other being coverage with no setup, so I don't think a direct comparison is even fair. It might be more an argument of how we're going to handle all this Arceus-Fairy business; full revamp or one set at a time?

 

[Inspirited]

The way I see it, 3 attacks has fewer problems doing meaningful damage with its tools because isn't completely owned by toxic. It is dealt with by support Arceus formes bar dragon like you said, but so is this one and this one fears toxic a ton more. At least 3 Attacks can stay in a turn and force the support Arceus to Recover in order to secure a switch without losing the ability to do its job. 3 attacks Arceu-Fairy's niche over Iceus and something like Rockceus is that it can stay in on Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh and trade effectively, Ice and Rockceus are weak to fire/rock (Stealth Rock also since losing 25% HP makes Pdon a ton more threatening) or Ground respectively and therefor cannot stay in on both. The fact that it can do meaningful damage on any given turn thanks to its very good STAB that is very well covered means that it can even stay in to slam away at Klefki if it likes as Toxic will never bug it as much as CM Iron Defense. Thunder Wave is a problem to take into consideration as you lose your small sweeping potential, but it is also a problem to CM Iron Defense because you won't be able to move 25% of the time randomly. The big thing to take away from this though is that even though CM Iron Defense and 3 attacks are on a near even footing, being able to smack Klefki as well as Groudon and Ho-Oh is a very big deal and makes it slightly better than Iron Defense CM imo. Besides, if you do get your CM Iron Defense Arceus surprise toxiced, you would want the 3 attacks set anyways.

The set up mons you mention should be dealt with by the team anyways and should be mention as threats in the C&C naturally (except for CM Mewtwo, that thing is pretty awful). Losing 3 Attacks to Mega Gengar is perfectly fine in my opinion as Gengar needs a sac (or a Recover) to come in on Fairyceus in the first place. This means Fairyceus has more than likely done the damage it needed to in order for the rest of the team work effectively. 3 attacks will hardly every be your late game when a Gengar is present but that is perfectly fine. That is not what it is meant to be anyways.

To me, the offensive niches of 3 Attacks outweigh the larger sweeping capability and unreliable self sustenance; my rejection still stands.

 

[Fireburn]

Also, it would be cool if some qc members other than wreckdra can reject it already because this thread should have never existed in the first place.

If you're going to keep making posts like this then stay out of this thread. You're contributing nothing to the discussion.

The Toxic weakness is annoying but can be compensated for. The only common balance mon that carries Toxic that you can't deal significant damage to at +1 is Klefki, which ngl is a pain but not an unstoppable force and it can be circumvented by lures (Heat Wave Yveltal, Darkrai), very hard counters like Excadrill, or just simply hitting it repeatedly since Klefki doesn't last forever. No variant of CM Fairyceus matches up well against stall (where you should expect to see tons of Toxic) because Snatch Blissey defeats even Refresh sets so that point is fairly moot. You won't see Toxic from many other sources on your typical Ho-Oh balance barring support Arceus-Water (+1 Judgment does a fair chunk), Dragon (dies), or Lugia (doesn't care about Fairyceus much regardless).

My original goal with using Iron Defense was accepting that it was a compromise. You gain the ability to beat Ho-Oh/most Groudon with one move but sacrifice being able to easily chip Klefki and other Steel-types with Toxic. I figured that was worth it at the time since Calm Mind keeps sweeping ability and Recover preserves longevity for switching into dudes like Yveltal, Lati@s, and Darkrai w/o Sludge Bomb, and it's not terribly hard to lure Klefki (Thunder Darkrai, Heat Wave Yveltal, HP Fire Latios, etc). It's ultimately a tradeoff based on what moves you pick:

• Judgment/EP/SEdge/Recover keeps longevity and luring abilities but lacks true sweeping potential (no Calm Mind).
• Calm Mind/Judgment/EP/SEdge keeps luring abilities and sweeping potential but lacks longevity (the biggest downside since a major advantage Fairyceus has over Xerneas is longevity)
• Calm Mind/Judgment/IronDef/Recover keeps longevity and sweeping potential in exchange for luring abilities (though you can still overcome many checks like Ho-Oh/SD-less Groudon/Ferrothorn).

I think the Iron Defense tradeoffs can be worthwhile, but since this is my set I'm not gonna accept/reject so you guys can continue to debate. n_n

full revamp or one set at a time?

Even if CM IronDef doesn't get approved this mon could still probably use a revamp. The Defog set is pretty bad and CM could use some touching up (WoW is awful on Fairyceus).

 

[Hack]

So some people have been wondering about my opinion, I've heard both sides so here we go.

I will first off say that Arceus-Fairy as a pkmn is borderline irrelevant. Building an overall strong team around it is nigh impossible due to its (I really hate this word) inherent weaknesses and opportunity cost as an Arceus forme. While some sets may be better than others, the overall difference is very small. However, I think this set takes the wrong approach, and thus I will reject this analysis.

If we begin by looking at the 3 main playstyles, offense, stall, and balance the first thing to note is how utterly trash this set becomes vs the former two. Vs heavier offenses your ability to create space limited and your lesser bulk (compared to bold Arceus formes) makes it harder to both switch in and set up. Even if we reach the point where set up is made possible, this set has to contend with SD Primal Groudon. Stall has an even easier time, normally having what I would claim is 2 hard counters (blob de blob+Lugia) and 2 strong checks (toxic Arceus-Water and Pdon).

So that leaves us with balance, typically based around Ho-oh. I can understand that it may look like a doable match-up but all things considered Arceus-Fairy does not switch into many mons on these types of teams and it does have a hard counter in Klefki (which is used a lot on those teams). Balanced teams without Klefki usually have some sort of steel to make up for lost grounds vs Latios/Xern so I can't really see a single good balanced team that has a super big issue with this mon. Obviously this is not accounting for the fact that balanced teams can- and often will- carry another toxic user, such as Arceus-Water.

I would be pretty hypocritic to reject this without suggesting something better, so I will do that too. Arceus-Fairy with Judgment/Stone Edge/Earth Power/Recover covers better for its own weaknesses and has a better match up vs balance (being able to directly threaten the trinity of Pdon, Ho-oh and Keys) and offense (by having PDon coverage). Additionally I think SR sets are more viable, especially if you are looking to use this disappointing mon as good as you can.

qc rejected 2/3

 

[Spyro Chris]

I wholeheartedly agree with Hack on this one. I have yet to see a good team with this set, first of all (that's subject to change, but it has to be a really solid team) and, as I previously mentioned, with a set like that, you're asking to get haxed, whether it's a critical hit, a full paralysis, etc. The Stealth Rock set or the 3 Attacks / Recover one provide more utility and threaten Balance by either setting up Stealth Rock without too much risk (especially vs. Sableye-Mega Balance), or by covering its checks in a nice way.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Minority]

Okay so I'm going to say some things.

I've sort of been on the fence with this set despite thinking it was cute when Fireburn first posted it. This set can actually put certain teams into a really uncomfortable position if they don't have some super defensive Toxic mon or like Mega Gengar. You can compensate the weaknesses to things like Klefki and Lugia via proper teammates. I feel that this set should be played as a win con, one that you don't really want to reveal and one that, given the proper support, can cleanup certain balances and bulky offenses.

The biggest concern for this set is stall, although it's not like we're strapped for tools that can break that down. I haven't run the actual statistics, but it appears that this set usually isn't going to win the war against Ho-Oh or offensive Primal Groudon. Although neither does substantial damage when Arceus-Fairy is at +2 defense, Arceus-Fairy is looking at around a 5HKO with Judgment, meaning it needs a significant number of turns to attack, Recover, attack, Recover, etc. This gives your opponent plenty of opportunities to crit you, while against certain things like Recover Ho-Oh and SD P Don you can't really beat them, even if crits and secondary effects are ignored. To be fair Ho-Oh won't like having to eat through Sacred Fire PP, while Brave Bird makes the wearing down process faster. Offensive Primal Groudon have to worry about missing Precipice Blades just as you have to worry about getting crit, but I still consider how this mon plays out in the crit war to be a negative.

Although, this isn't the main reason why I'm rejecting this. I don't feel very comfortable giving that 3rd check to a set that already has 2 rejects from players I have a great deal of faith in, in addition to 2 more concerns from active Ubers players. I think the best course of action is to do a full revamp for Arceus-Fairy that has two sets; 3 attacks + Recover and maybe a SR support. I'm confident that this set is worthwhile enough to have a strong mention in Other Options for this revamp. The details of if SR support or offensive CM deserve sets can be discussed on the new thread. Thank you for the effort that was put into this writeup, sorry it didn't work out.

QC Rejected: (3/3)