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BW OU Is Deoxys-s yet another Uber?

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Eggbert, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Brute Force

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    Intro

    Ok so there is a long intro from a while ago, but I just want to make this brief. I'm posting this now because of the deo-s and changing metagame. Basically, when Excadrill and Thundurus got banned people decided that this kind of team was suddenly viable. It was viable all along. These teams do not have to be generic and they are not easy lol wins on the ladder. Many of the games really boil down to pure strategy. You can't throw up screens and bring in a random sweeper. It's more than just "deo and 5 sweepers". They have to be able to match up against the various different teams and weathers, not get swept or setup on by common threats, and work together to eliminate common counters. Teambuilding is so essential to this. The metagame heavily revolves around deoxys spiker leads and dragonite now. Nite in particular is almost impossible to take down without loosing team members. Even things like scarers just can't bring it down. That was the concept of my team; throw lum nite under screens and have it become a juggernaut. Screens are just my favorite way to go since I like the ability to tank all sorts of attacks and be able to set up easily, but things like the regular deo spiker can work too. I think some of the problems BW is having now are people's mindsets. Deoxys was just as good now as it was half a year ago. As these new sets surface people aren't ready to deal with them and then we get too eager with the banhammer. Yea I just wanted to make my point about this. Also this is my 1k :).

    Show Hide
    I've been working on this team for a while now, it's the physical counterpart of my other dual screens team. It's alot of fun to use and the games are usually fast paced and close! The idea is the same, but the changes in the metagame make using physical worthwhile, despite having to deal with more varied physical walls like Gliscor, Quagsire, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Jellicent, Slowbro, ect rather than just Blissey / Chansey, Quagsire, Jirachi, Ferrothorn. Basically, I aim to use sweeper or two to bait out these walls and damage them to the point where they can't wall me anymore. Then the remaining sweepers can hopefully clean the other team out. It's very effective against bulky offense and even stall, which populate this metagame. Screens buy me setup time and stop things like priority and scarf from revenging me. Those are the real banes of this kind of team, as they stop things from damaging the enemies' team before going down. It's a more strategic game now. Some times I will sacrifice 2-3 pokemon against stall just to get 60% off the one mon that is stopping my Haxorus. Team building is also insanely important here. I need ways to not only be covered against common sweepers (stop them from setting up on me while I try to sweep), but to have ways of setting up on common sweepers and walls. The team went through many stages before what I think is the most effective version.

    Physical teams like this tend to be somewhat similar, but there is no template or required mons. It's mainly because things like Haxorus are just effective in the metagame right now. Speaking of which, DRAGONITE AND DEOXYS. Everywhere. Another plus for using Scizor and Haxorus as a core. Screeners like Latios, Starmie, and even Sub Pass Espeon are usable. Screens may not even be necessary, it depends on what you are using. I know from testing that screens make my particular team more effective. Dual dragons are not the only way to go, having fighting types and water types is cool too. Kingdra + Scizor was actually the focus of this team for some time before Haxorus' Quag killing abilities were needed. There are many different ways this kind of team can be effective, it's not as rigid as something like Politoed / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel that promotes teams having really similar builds. The strategy is the same but there are many ways to make this effective. I'm no pro at battling but for those who care about ratings it did get several of my alts far on the ladder, the most successful screenshot I can find was #39@1418 on SU. no big deal ,who cares, not as much as the ladder kings but the point is to show that this type of team is viable and effective. It's "Brute Force" because that's what the other teams face; overpowering offense.


    Preview

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    The Team

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    Deoxys-S @ Light Clay
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen

    The set remains the same. Deo provides cover so my early game sweepers can get more setup time. It's difficult to nab 2 DDs off a Ferrothorn otherwise. Taunt stops things from setting up on me, keeping stealth rock away is always nice. Keeping SR away is easier with Deo, so they will only get up SR if they have a Deo and win the speed tie, or if they bring in Ttar before I've gotten the necessary screens, so I don't want to risk taunting the. Other than that, they might get midge hazards when I'm locked to outrage (let their ferro eat 80%, that's fine by me) Rocks of my own also save me big time against d-nite, which can survive a hit from everything barring Haxorus unboosted. With reflect, Haxorus has a good chance of even setting up against Skarmory and bringing it pretty low. Bullet punch barely dents my sweepers and scarers are unable to revenge anything. Keeping this brief since it's the same old Deo.

    Regarding the Deo-s thread: I don't think deo is broken. Yea it can screen really well, but there are other things that can too. Its coverage can take people who don't take it (lol 95 spa!!!) seriously and get KOs with a surprise superpower or psycho boost. But in the end as a screener it will fall after setting screens that anything else can set. The LO set can be walled by bulky steels, and the spiker can be stopped from getting too many layers with the right mons. It has the potential to break the game up early, but that doesn't make it uber.

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    [​IMG]

    Virizion @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Leaf Blade
    - Stone Edge

    Virizion is just so underrated. It's the can opener or cleaner against stall, the check against Quagsire, and the resistance monster. If I see the opponent is packing Skarmory, (early game Scizor is usually a bad idea) Virizion is the mon I go to. Close combat does around 75% to impish max, meaning if they brave bird they are gone. Most of the things it can send out can finish it or stop it from roosting. Virizion is notorious for beating all of the physical walls; Quagsire, Gliscor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Jellicent, you name it. Rain stall, and stall in general, crumbles against Virizion. Life orb > Lum, since it needs all the power it can get with its average 90 atk stat. Virizion is walled by psychics mainly, Celebi, Lati@s, Reuniclus, which is the main downside to Virizion, since they don't really wall the rest of my team (maybe Gyara). Virizion also saves me against Starmie, who is really dangerous otherwise. This team does not function the same without it, it covers me against so many different kinds of threats.
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    [​IMG]

    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Extremespeed

    One of the main reasons to use dual screens. With screens up, Multiscale intact, and lum berry at the ready, Dragonite is essentially invincible. Except for taunt, nothing is stopping me from getting up at least 1 dragon dance. If they have a priority abuser like Scizor, it's best to get one dance so I can stay above the KO range. Most teams I see have Scizor so this sucks, but on the teams that don't getting 2 dragon dances is very common since this thing is so difficult to stop. Outrage > Dragon Claw, the damage output us very important for things like Gliscor, Politoed, Rotom, ect. Lum is better here for multiscale, though it usually breaks before I attack, and for status-mongers that provide me with free setup while they waste time trying to wisp me. It does have 75% accuracy, so if it misses and I get an extra DD, it can be GG. Don't rely on that! Extremespeed lets me weaken scarers like Rotom and also revenge weakened sweepers who might try and setup on me and take too much damage. It leaves me walled by Heatran, who commonly has a balloon, so the 2HKO from Outrage is the same. I miss the KO on Terrakion (unbolted) and Ttar (boosted) with Outrage, but extremespeed is worth it. EVs are simple, ect.

    Just adding this here regarding the complaints against D-nite: Multiscale is ridiculous. Except for things like specs Meteor and Icicle crash, anything is setup fodder for a turn, even ice beams. But with SR up it is just an above average sweeper. I think the problem is how easy it is to have a dedicated SR remover + nit, that's what gives it the edge against teams. The fact that bulky nite with roost can take a scarf landorus stone edge and get to +2 and proceed to setup on it is pretty crazy.

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    [​IMG]

    Gyarados @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Double-Edge

    Useless against rain stall, but an excellent glue moon and sweeper. (Still good against stall that doesn't have ferrothorn and quag) Gyarados is my safety net against some sweepers that can set up on the rest of my team, like Volcarona, Dragonite, ect. If they set up, I can sac Gyara to take them out, or sometimes even setup on them. Intimidate > Moxie. Coverage is weird, basically I'm tired of stone edge so I'm not using that unless I have to. Haven't missed it. Bounce is for bulky grass types like Ferro, Celebi, Tangrowth. Hax appreciates having Ferro weakened (does around 65% to it) and the other two can't stop Gyara because if it. I had return but it only did 1% to a Latios after a DD?? Double edge OHKOs it after SR most of the time and also OHKOs Rotom-w all of the time after SR. Screw scarf though, although I can survive a t-bolt with light screen and full health. I've used lum on this thing for the longest time, but Rotom can just survive and ruin my sweep. It also gives an increased damage output against things like Quagsire so they can't recover stall with 0 risk, in the rain. Also helps against Scizor, Lucario, ect who can survive non LO waterfalls. People are discovering the sub-bounce now, but the classic gyara is just as good as ever.

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    [​IMG]

    Haxorus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 126 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt

    More powerful than Dragonite. That's right. This thing is just ridiculous. Deserves the obnoxiously sized picture. The second part of my main core. Against stall, steel types, multiscale, everything. You've got taunt, no SR / 4x ice weak, mold breaker, and better offensive stats. Taunt lets you stop whirlwind, status, and leech seed. Haxorus reaches enough speed to beat scarf Poli with only 132 Evs, so the extra 120 can make him alot bulkier. Since you aren't 4x ice weak, you can survive most unstabbed ice beams and such. You hit more speed (beat scarf terrakion at +2, where nite can't), more power, and similar physical bulk. You also have 147 base attack which gets the 2HKO on quag unboosted. Speaking of quag, mold breaker completely nullifies unaware, so quag isn't stopping hax anytime soon. Nite does have fire punch and extremspeed though, but hax isn't far behind. Ultimate stall killer and second way of beating Quagsire. Also Hax destroys rain teams for some reason. It's uncanny. Usually I let Virizion weaken stall a bit, then clean with Hax when I don't have to worry about full health Ferro, Toed ect and waste outrage turns on them. Yea I rarely use Eq and I even had mono attacker with SD over it, but CM Jirachi can be difficult at times and it is more consistent. I have to remind myself, EQ hits Rotom dumbass! It saves me outrage turns. Lum laughs at scald, taunt laughs at leech seed, roar, ect. Monster.

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    [​IMG]

    Scizor @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Superpower

    Cleaner, revenge killer, glue. Scizor really holds this team together but it has to be played at the right time. Early game is usually a bad idea, since Scizor is slow and things that resist BP without taking much damage from it while boosted are common, like Heatran and Rotom-w. Life orb makes Scizor hit like an adrenaline boosted prizefighter. Even things like Rachi will not appreciate it when they are a bit lower in health. Bug bite deals nice damage, even to things that you think would take resisted damages, like enemy Gyarados, but U-turn is something I've picked up on. Basically, I might need Scizor early game against something like Latias or Deoxys, but that would leave Scizor as fodder as it usually is if you try and set up with it early. This way I can check something like Haxorus with U-turn and covers my revenger. Late game is usually just Bullet punching and maybe a superpower, so it isn't a big deal. Brick break is another option against other screen teams, but it doesn't OHKO other Scizor at +2. Bullet punch is the most important move, but superpower is what lets me take down other Scizor and keeps Skarmory under pressure. My goal is to be faster than Scizor but slower than Skarmory. Another weakness of my teams the lack of steel types, Scizor is my only defense against Haxorus, who can even get past Gyarados and shrugs off priority. Usually my cleaner if Virizion is not. It's even better than it was in DPP, most important member of the team no doubt.

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    1k

    I've been on Smogon for around 2 years now (took me long enough to get 1k) and it played a pretty big role regarding games, lurking and reading stuff in firebot and a forum, and the discussions in DST / stark. Little shoutout to a few of the nice people here I've gotten to know a bit and people who discuss stuff in dst. Even the ponies and murderous bodoms from falchat. And yes, eggbert is a stupid name, I know.

    Threats and Conclusion

    The biggest threats to my team are really fast and powerful scarfers like Terrakion and excessive priority in ice shard. Starmie in the rain is pretty brutal. Offensive hail is difficult to beat for that reason. There are so many possibilities for sweepers so I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for reading, - Eggbert. Also note: I'm typing this with auto spelling correct so things like mon turn into moon by accident, ect.

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  2. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    On Gyarados, the reason Return only did 1% is because you had 0 Happiness; however, I think that Double-Edge is still superior, haha.

    I don't really think you can make this team much better without changing anything huge tbh, since the problems with these type of teams will always be present without completely changing your team.

    My only possible change would be running something over Gyarados. I'd recommend something like Shell Smash (duh) Cloyster. Cloyster checks Dragonite much better, and Volcarona (except HP Ice lol) is already checked by Dragonite. Additionally, it can do stuff like lure in Ferrothorn and quickly destroy it with a +2 Icicle Spear. If you run Focus Sash then it also acts as a one time stop to almost everything, additionally.

    EDIT: I realized this makes you a lot weaker to Scizor and Lucario. If you do run Cloyster, then you should run a lot of bulk (something like 252 HP / 160 Def and probably Shell Smash / (HP Fire / Hydro Pump) / Icicle Spear / Rock Blast since it'll let you beat Scizor and Lucario (neither can OHKO you, while you can get up to +2/+2 and OHKO back).
  3. Latchet

    Latchet

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    94
    Great team man, seriously. I can't really add anything except for agreeing with trying cloyster over gyarados. I just don't know. The only thing bad I can think of is I've alreaduly had to face this team twice, and neither were you. To me, that's the only thing bad about good RMT's.
  4. whitesocks

    whitesocks

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    48
    :]]

    Hey Checker! Me likey the team.
    I would have to say Gyarados is your main star here, because for some reason you still do not see it enough on ladder making it an under prepared threat.
    The Volt Turn core could be troublesome, but it normally is for every team.
    Good work!
  5. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Focus sash cloyster is really cool, especially as a lead since it can pressure Deoxys. The only problem as you said is that it takes Gyara's spot which is important for checking Lucario, and it can only go over Gyara imo. Salamence > Nite might work for that though, sounds good to test. Cloyster also outspeeds terrakion with jolly which is really nice. Thanks for the rate.

    Thanks for the comment, and if you want a better shot to win against this team pack scarf terrakion!

    hi socks. Yea, most people don't really prepare for Gyara outside of Rotom-w, so if they aren't packing scarf then then will just have to sac stuff until I die to recoil. Volt turn is surprisingly easy to break up only if screens are up. Nite can just tank anything and break that duo up. Reflect lets Virizion break it up too. Gyara also beats it if rotom isn't scarfed, but yea if it can be annoying sometimes. Thanks for the rate.
  6. salamence1

    salamence1

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    43
    wow I thought this would never work if they used a skarm ,but it does I just went 9/10. Its suprisingly close too
  7. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion
    Moderator

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    This is a really good team and a great example of screens offense in this metagame. My suggestions are minimal but I think they're beneficial. First off, I'd like you to try Moxie > Intimidate on Gyarados. The snowball effect it brings is just amazing; you've got screen support, the -1 Atk on opponents isn't that useful imo. Moxie's snowball effect is just incredible at tearing through the most slightly weakened team. I also think Gyara would be better off running Frustration over Double-Edge; the two recoils are really unappealing to me and I think you'll find that after you KO a Rotom, you'll be in its omnipresent partner Scizor's KO range from all the recoil you took (assuming SR is up and Reflect is down, which isn't exactly unrealistic). Frustration is only 18 BP lower and doesn't bring that annoying recoil. I would also drop Scizor's HP EVs down to 192 and then throw the remaining 32 into either defense or special defense, depending on what dragon you want to check better (Haxorus or Latios, respectively).

    tl;dr Moxie > Intimidate and Frustration > Double-Edge Gyara, 192 HP and 32 (Sp)Def on Scizor

    Other than that, this is a great team, grats on the 1k, gl!
    some "murderous bodoms" for you (open)
    A glance to my eyes, deep within reveals
    This worn-out warrior's mind
    I'm killing you by suffering
    Discomposure of a deepest kind

    In the night I crave to feel your breath
    And your touch like angel of death
    In the dawn I'm in chains of bestial rage
    And forced to make you dead

    The chains get tighter around my throat
    I can give you no love, only dead-lift of pain

    In the dusk of evening I tuck you up with feathers
    Forever I'll stand by your side
    In the twilight of night I'm laughing
    While cutting you hundred and thirteen times

    Can't you see I am evil, double-edged razor
    Child of eternal hate.
    To torment you like a motherfucking-whore
    I'll make you cry forever more

    I'd crawl through broken glass to you...
    And your name is written in my very flesh
    With the knife I'm still longing to use

    In the night I crave to feel your breath
    And your touch like angel of death
    In the dawn I'm in chains of bestial rage
    And forced to make you dead

    -"Touch Like Angel of Death"
  8. Xephyr

    Xephyr

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,086
    I definitely echo the Frustration>Double Edge suggestion, as you'll still have enough power to KO Rotoms and stuff without the irritating recoil.

    Also, great team.
  9. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Individually, skarm walls every member. But with things like SD virizion and Scizor, fire punch nite, and waterfall gyara in the rain, it will not be able to wall my team for long.

    Frustration always ohkos 4 hp rotom (scarf) after rocks, but it only has a 50% chance to ohko 112 Hp rotom (the one I can actually beat). I also lose to KO on Latios. However, you are right, double edge makes Gyara die alot faster and I find Scizor revenging it, and it should be the other way. Gyara is also my best bet against hail and obviously the recoil isn't helping against obamasnow. so yup, I'll probably make that change.

    There are two reasons to run intimidate: Lucario and Dragonite. If it weren't for lucario I would definitely replace intimidate, but it really causes problems otherwise. Usually its the speed and recoil that stops Gyara from cleaning, not the power. For most games, moxie will help, but I need to be covered against lucario.

    Also throwing that 32 into def / spdef, haven't decided. And those bodoms are pretty brutal, "chains of bestial rage", thanks for the rate!

    Yup, I will probably be going with that.

    Thanks :)
  10. OmegaPit

    OmegaPit

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Messages:
    14
    Haha wow, this is almost identical to my team except I don't run Virizion or Haxorus, but after reading what your Virizion does to the main walls I think I'm definitely going to have to swap out a 'mon, the only reason I didn't before is because I wanted to try and maintain coverage but after being destroyed by Unaware Quagsire I'm starting to really consider it.

    Anyways, I don't know what else to say about the team really, it looks great, well built, I also favour the Frustration/Return > Double-Edge argument. So yeah, all in all a great team.

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