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jorba shell smash offense. peaked 11-1200ish

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by happy ham, Jul 17, 2011.

  1. happy ham

    happy ham

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    hi there, i'm jorba, and i ladder either under the name "jorba" or my alt, "happy ham."

    it's my current goal to get on page 1 of the smogon leaderboards for the first time in my career. hovered around the top 100, but i've never maintained a steady enough team to really ladder much. back in late gen 4, i found that my playstyle is best suited to heavily offensive teams, and i reached my highest ladder peak in gen 4 on shoddy playing physical heavy offense after the mence ban.

    of course, i was super excited when smash pass became a viable strategy in gen 5, since it's absoutely vicious as a strategy and really suits how i like to play. it's the strategy i plan to utilize to some extent for a while longer, hopefully beating my previous record.

    this team is based around 2 basic units: support, and sweepers. I use 2 supporters who allow 4 offensive pokes to sweep. my supporters both have offensive capabilities, and outside of smash pass, all my offenseive pokes are capable of pulling off a game winning sweep, which is a golden rule of offense.

    considering i plan on using this basic structure for a while, i'd really appreciate specific input on:

    1. how i can maximise offensive synergy between sweepers (to some extent i'm double dragoning, smashing holes with one to make sure the other can sweep later, but that isn't too reliable) since i have a tendency of just picking sweepers that seem cool,

    2. if there are any useful sweepers i have overlooked that really shine with smash pass, since i'm always willing to try new strategies, and smash pass really opens up some unique opportunities for sweepers who are at weird speed tiers, or are otherwise unviable.

    3. anythign else. these preferences are just to make your rating easier, i'll take any and all input under consideration.

    so here is the overview:

    support:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    sweepers:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]




    SUPPORT

    [​IMG]

    Sandburg
    espeon @ light clay
    252 spe 252 sAtk 4 hp
    magic bounce, timid

    -reflect
    -light screen
    -psyshock
    -HP fighting

    espeon serves a vital purpose to this (and really any offensive) team. he comes out early game and sets up screens, increasing my momentum and allowing me an easy choice to either 1. set up shell smash with gorebyss, or 2. set up a boost with one of my sweepers, allowing them to punch holes for a later sweep. Screens are really necessary to pulling off a haxorus sweep, because he's just too frail to really set up against much in the metagame right now. nidoking loves them because it allows him to survive a hit and ko back with one of his coverage moves, and scizor likes being able to set up swords dances, and can sometimes even survive the odd unboosted fire move after light screeen is up. dragonite doesn't really care about screens because of multi scale, but if rocks are up, it certainly helps.

    Magic bounce synergizes well with the rest of the team, which generally dislikes hazards and status. nite hates stealth rock because it negates multi scale, and the rest of my sweepers are grounded so a few layers of spikse really end up fucking up their survivability. hax and nite both have lum, but lum is unreliable for repeated switchins (duh) and putting the odd sleep power tangrowth/roserade/that thing that's like a roserade but different to sleep is always handy.

    in a worst case scenario, espeon can also take a shell smash. psyshock and hp fighting cover a pretty wide variety of foes who aren't psychic type, and espeon has great speed and sAtk to utilize the boosts. if the opponent's team is weakened, he can actually be really useful. overall, espeon is pretty key to my strategy and i'm not looking to replace him. my only other magic bounce option would be xatu, and.. meh


    [​IMG]
    Ginsburg
    gorebyss @ white herb
    252 hp 232 spe 24 sAtk
    swift swim, timid

    -shell smash
    -surf
    -ice beam
    -baton pass

    gorebyss is the second support option. his job is to set up shell smash and pass +2 atk, sAtk, and spe to the sweeper i choose. his success often determines whether or not my team wins, since my team is based around a shell smash boost either 1. winning the match or 2. punching holes in the other team allowing an unboosted sweep or scizor or nite's priority moves to clean up.

    All 4 offensive pokemon are determined by how well they recieve shell smash. gorebyss is super important to this team, so obviously i'm not going to replace him. I've considered huntail or smeargle for smashing, but huntail is generally inferior and smeargle has to run sash, which forces me to really situationally deploy him (i need to keep rocks from being set up, he can't run white herb which makes my team a lot frailer, etc.). i think gorebyss is here to stay.

    i ran sub instead of ice beam for a while, but i like being able to use gorebyss as a sweeper in an emergency, and ice beam gives me nice coverage against dragons. surf is for stab, obviously. gorebyss can be reasonably threatening against scizors who think they can bp my switchin, koing them with surf, and taking the resisted hit pretty well.


    i'm not really looking to replace either support poke right now, they've been working pretty dang well.

    --

    OFFENSE

    [​IMG]
    Hemingway
    haxorus @ lum berry
    252 atk 252 spe 4 hp
    mold breaker, adamant

    -outrage
    -earthquake
    -brick break/taunt
    -dragon dance

    haxorus is incredibly useful. his attack power is unmatched among ou dragons, and his speed tier, while being pretty lame compared to other dragons, is fast enough to outspeed most things after a shell smash, and a reasonable amount of things after a DD.

    as a shell smash recipient, his job is to fuck shit up with outrage. you'll notice both my dragons run lum berry, which is useful for switching in, but lum also serves the unique purpose of healing confusion after an outrage, giving me 4-6 outrage turns before he becomes crippled. at +2 spe and atk with an adamant nature, he kills.. everything. He generally comes out early game, even if skarm/forre/natt/jirach is out, because he's so freaking powerful that even they fear him, since he can dent all of them so bad that my other sweepers can easilty take them out.

    outside of shell smash, he's still very threatening after a dd, or sometimes without setting up, catching a switchin with an eq. he doesn't resist priority, which makes him pretty vulnerable to scizors and conkledurrs who want to revenge him. that's an unfortunate drawback.if scizor or conkle is still in the match, i generally won't attempt to sweep unless i can get him a reflect to work with with, allowing him to survive and KO back with outrage/eq.

    i usually deploy him early game, to open up room for other sweepers, especially nite.

    [​IMG]
    Cummings
    nidoking @ life orb
    252 sAtk 252 spe 4 hp
    sheer force, timid

    -earth power
    -flamethrower
    -thunderbolt
    -ice beam

    nidoking is insane with sheer force. all his 4 attacks are boosted by sheer force, meaning his signature amazign coverage is now unhindered by his low base stats. it's amazing how people underestimate him, since he rips apart almost everything being commonly used in the metagame right now. he walks all over jirachi/gliscor cores and nattorei/burunkeru cores with super effective moves, and kills the skarms, natts, jirachis and zones that give my dragons trouble

    after a shell smash pass, he kills everthing. it's usually game over. +2 sheer force life orb STAB earth power hits super hard against everything, but i almost never even have to use it because chances are the target will be weak to one of my coverage moves. flamethrower/boltbeam is absoltely insane. nidoking also absorbs toxic spikes, which can shorten one of my pokemon's sweeps.

    he resists conkledurr's mach punch, which is super useful for countering him, as he's probably the most annoying priority to my team.

    he also doesn't have life orb recoil, which means if i can get past priority, i'm usually going to survive until i have done a pretty significant amount of damage.

    outside of shell smash, i have to do some prediction to nail switchins, but he can still help punch key holes in opposing defensive cores if i play him smart.

    in addition, he can weaken quagsire with neutral earth power, which without a +2 boost 2kos physically defensive versions. this is important becaues quagsire really hurts my team otherwise.


    haxorus and nidoking usually make up my early game strategy. lategame, i usually resort to my two priority users.



    [​IMG]


    Pynchon
    scizor @ life orb
    252 atk 252 spe 4 hp
    technician, adamant

    -swords dance
    -bullet punch
    -superpower
    -bug bite

    this is a standard offensive sd scizor with superpower instead of brick break. i'm probably not going to replace superpower, because, while it makes scizor slightly weaker and frailer, it scores some pretty key hits against other steel types, specifically skarm. i don't have the calcs in front of me, but i know superpower 2kos most skarms, which is super important since skarm can cause the rest of my team trouble with phazing and sponging outrages.

    After a shell smash, scizor pretty much blazes past everything with +2 adamant bullet punch. i almost never have to use bug bit, but i can be useful versus lati@s and reuniclus. Superpower kills steels, leaving me with +1 atk and +2 spe, which is usually enought to finish a successful sweep with bullet punch once i've eliminated the steel in question (or clean up with a dragon.)

    scizor synergizes well with the rest of the team, because he's a key dragon resist who can set up on dragons locked into outrage and ko them with bullet punch. if someone outrages out of desperation to keep gorebyss from passing successfully, i usually switch in scizor.

    i've tried other steel types, like metagross and lucario, but they don't have the combination of utility and bulk that scizor does. I like him.


    [​IMG]
    Kerouac
    dragonite @ lum berry
    252 atk 252 spe 4 hp
    multi scale, adamant

    -dragon dance
    -outrage
    -fire punch
    -extremespeed


    dragonite serves as a lategame sweeper, due to his access to priority and multi scale. multi scale means he can get up 1 or 2 dds most of the time, and lum outrage gives him 4-6 turns of outrage after that, making him pretty unstoppable if i can keep rocks from getting set up. most of the time, they aren't, tho, because i play pretty offensively, which prevents a lot of setup, and espeon can usually prevent rocks from getting set up.

    After a shell smash, he outspeeds and kills everything with lum outrage, and can ko pretty much the entire metagame with an outrage/fire punch followed by an extremespeed. he's my 2nd priority user, which helps clean up after my early game sweepers have weakened opposing teams. i like fire punch, because it kills scizor who doesn't usually ko with bullet punch, and scizor can cause my team problems.

    lum dragonite was absolutely unstoppable after the mence ban 4th gen, and i'm super glad to see him coming back with multi scale this gen. i don't think i would replace him with salamence, just because he's better for my team. he does better againt priority and doesn't die as quickly, and has much-needed priority. he's slow, but e-speed helps with that and it doesn't matter after a dd/shell smash. he's pretty cool as well.

    --

    so there you have it. my strategy is to punch holes with my 2 early sweepers then clean up with my 2 late sweepers, while supporting with my 2 supporters. pretty simple. any feedback is welcome.

    i'm not going to include a comprehensive threatlist, because the nature of my team would pretty much render it useless (the entire threatlist is pretty much taken care of after a shell smash, my success usually relies on how smart i am with sacs.) but there are a few pokemon who can mess up my strat.

    1. quagsire

    fuck this guy. unaware kills all my boosts, and he can kill my only real pokemon who can deal with him (nidoking) with scald/surf. i usually just play around him, avoiding smashing until he's dead. i'll generally lure him in with a dragon, then outrage to weaken him while he kills it, then kill him with nidoking, but if my opponent is smart that can easily fail.

    luckily he's not overly popular, but if i see him on team preview it makes my life a lot easier.

    2. skarm

    he can deal with my dragons and phaze out my shell smash recipient. i generall attack him with my coverage moves, and that usually works pretty well. haxorus has brick break which does a fair amount and can kill him after a shell smash or weaken him after a dd, but sometimes i run taunt specifically to keep him from phazing. i'm still deciding whick i like better. if skarm thinks he can switch in to scizor gettting up a swords dance, he gets demolished by superpower, which usually does a good 70ish% at +2. Nidoking deals with him, and dragonite can pick him off if he's weak with fire punch. espy can switch in and make him phaze/spike himself, which is a great way to reverse momentum.

    3. forretress

    Like skarm but less threating because he' can't phaze. absorbs outrages tho. i treat him the same as skarm, with fire punch/superpower/brick break/flamethrower/magic bounce.

    4. excadrill

    he does well against my team, outspeeding most everything in sand. he can't ohko scizor or dragonite without an sd, tho, so i usually attack im to keep him from setting up. if he attack straight up, i'll sac my pokemon and switch in scizor to kill him with superpower or bullet punch if he's weak, or nite to kill him with fire punch/e speed if he's weak.

    5. scizor

    priority can mess with my team, but i can usually deal with scizor with nidoking, dragonite and my scizor, who usually outspeeds other scizors (who don't run full speed EVs) and kills with superpower.

    6. conkeldurr

    mach punch kills scizor and haxorus, but dragonite and nidoking resist mach punch and attack him back. i have to deal with him before i attempt a sweep, though.

    alright, thanks for reading. i'll try all potential suggestions, i'm looking forward to seeing exactly how deadly shell smash can become.
  2. GreasyPanda

    GreasyPanda

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    66
    Five out of the six pokemon on your threat list can be solved by one simple pokemon. And that is heatran. A set like this would really help in getting rid of everyone except conkeldur.But I don't know who you would take off so this is just an idea.
    Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Stealth Rock

    Heck He could even set up entry hazzards.
  3. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    553
    Here's one HUGE problem I see with this:

    If your opponent plays their cards right, you SmashPass, and go out to Nidoking, then can bring in Chansey while you have difficulty touching them. If they've gotten a decent hit off on Gorebyss, then there's not a whole lot you can do as they can proceed to sweep your team now that your main support poke is gone.

    Perhaps replacing HP FIghting for Baton Pass on Espeon for a Chansey backup would work well.

    However, nice Smashpass team, looks like it'd be fun to use :D.
  4. Aeromence

    Aeromence

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2011
    Messages:
    456
    Salamence is the best smashpass receptant out there now that chomp is gone. I had a team peak at 1508 that proves it. try it over Dnite, a set like this:

    Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Hydro Pump
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Roost/Dragon Claw
  5. Raised by Wolves

    Raised by Wolves

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    28
    you seem to be a little more Excadrill weak than you give the credit for. I don't know, maybe I'll try this team out and give it a better rate later, but it seems for me that this particular set:

    Terrakion @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Swords Dance/Rock Polish
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake/Rock Polish

    would fit well > Nite or Haxorus. It's still a set up sweeper, and gives you a very decent Excadrill check. Of course, it makes you a little more Scizor weak and of course, spamming Outrage at +2 is fun as shit, but I think it would be worth a shot if Excadrill is giving you as much trouble as I think he is. The Heatran posted above is also a very good idea to solve this problem (only with another move > stealth rock, because I don't really think you need stealth rock with Espeon on your team), but you could try this Terrakion if you don't want to lose one of your set up sweepers.

    Just another nitpick: how often does that HP Fighting come in handy? Because the Baton Pass idea posted above seems to be made of pure gold.

    Other than that, this team seems not only solid, but also extremely fun to use.
  6. WuA

    WuA

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    35
    what about replacing about haxourus with mix mence? It lets you bluff to worse players and is better at breaking special and physical walls therefore making it easier to clean up. Id recommens this set.

    MixMence
    Intidate w/ Life orb

    -DD
    -Outrage
    -fire blast / flame thrower
    -draco meteor

    Hope this brings you success
  7. Atimix

    Atimix

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    your explanations are extremely simple and don't tell much. I like your Dnite set
  8. happy ham

    happy ham

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Thanks, I'll try a ballon tran, probably with a different stat spread, cuz i want all my offensive pokes to be able to run with a shell smash, and heatran doesn't outspeed much with no investment, even at +2.

    I never smash pass to Nidoking if Chansey is still alive. I actually considered slashing BP on espy, thouhg, because i switch off between those two moves. Thanks for the suggestion, that could help me finally make the decision, especially since most tars run significant special defense and even espy's hp fighting sometimes doesn't ko.

    I tried salamence, but i really liked Dragonite's bulk and e-speed.This seems like a pretty sick set, though, so i'll gladly try it. Haxorus is generally less useful than nite since as i said in the rmt he doesn't really function too well outside of screens, so i might consider replacing him with mence. on the other hand i'll have two 4X ice weaks, but fuck it, it's not like i'm taht concerned with synergizing on this team. i'll try both. Thanks!

    1. That terak set is pretty legit, super thanks.
    2. the only problem i've had testing terak in the past is that stone edge misses, which sucks pretty bad, especially for my team when one successful sweep at +2 can pretty much determine whether i win or lose.
    3. yeah, see above, i've been testing both bp and hp fighting, and i'm gonna re-test bp again at your guys' suggestion. :)
    4. thanks for the rate!
    5. ps any reason that terak is naive? i think i'll probably run jolly :P


    yep, that seems pretty similar to the mence above, i'll try a few different mence variations and see which works best.

    the idea of going mixed is highly attractive to me, since if mence gets a pass he'll be able to fire off a +2 draco meteor, which is baller and could help him get through walls that would normally keep him from sweeping.

    thanks, i'll do that. >.>
  9. Raised by Wolves

    Raised by Wolves

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    28
    Oh, the Naive Nature was my mistake, hehe. Just use Jolly instead.
  10. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    553
    When I'm playing against SmashPass, and I have a Chansey on my team, when the Gorebyss comes in, I'll go to something with BoltBeam, as if they pass to a Dragon they risk the ice move. Nidoking has bulk, so normally that's a safe recipient on the predicted Thunderbolt or HP Ice. If you pass to Nidoking too early, then they can bring Chansey in and screw you over. That's why I think BP on Espeon could work; at least as a failsafe for if something goes wrong.

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