Kangaskhan

[Ash Borer]

PuP kanga is definitely still scary in ubers, the most real challenge it's gunna face is the fact that basically every team has an arceus faster than it, and with will-o-wisp. It doesnt even lose to giratina :x

also ubers is just bulky as fuck in general so it can really just sucker punch its way through all the scarfers.

 

[effyouzion]

Well, Arc-Rock is quite true, but:

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 495-585 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 423-501 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 312-369 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Giras can be sniped with Crunches on the switch, which might make them scared to switch-in to try and block PUP. But yeah, difficulty setting up against the Ghosts is a big reason I couldn't get a PUP set to work and kept missing Earthquake or Fake Out

I ran EQ over crunch because the Giratinas are rare while Arc-rock is on nearly every team (you can catch him on the switch if you predict right and whittle him down eventually, especially if he's burned from your Ho-oh).

If you do use crunch, you're walled by Arc-rock and still vulnerable to burn from other Arceus forms.

 

[Player-0]

I agree with effyouzion, you should have something else to take the giratina-O anyway.

 

[goomy pls]

Discovery:

Counter will hit for 2x damage twice, returning 4x damage.

Seismic Toss will hit for full damage twice.

 

[kingmidas]

Discovery:

Counter will hit for 2x damage twice, returning 4x damage.

Seismic Toss will hit for full damage twice.

We knew the last part but that counter one seems kinda iffy. As the second attack does half, are you sure it don't do 3X?

 

[goomy pls]

We knew the last part but that counter one seems kinda iffy. As the second attack does half, are you sure it don't do 3X?

Yes, I just tested it out in a Wifi battle against someone on IRC.

I have kangaskhans with Counter bred if you want to try for yourself *totally not a shameless plug*

 

[rainbowumbreon]

gotta to admit i love this thing in ubers and i really didnt think i would

the best part of this is the duel priority and thats the main thing i use it for.i know using fake out is probley a bad idea but when i get lazy i need to kill a set up sweeper i can duel priority its ass.Or even sack a poke to get two fake outs of on it (xernas....god danm it)

 

[Donkey]

gotta to admit i love this thing in ubers and i really didnt think i would

the best part of this is the duel priority and thats the main thing i use it for.i know using fake out is probley a bad idea but when i get lazy i need to kill a set up sweeper i can duel priority its ass.Or even sack a poke to get two fake outs of on it (xernas....god danm it)

Nah it's not a bad idea, it's good vs offense, only issue is its dead weight vs balance/stall.

 

[Paramore_Zelda]

So, ultimately, whats more useful as a nature: Adamant or Jolly? I'm using Jolly at the moment but I was wondering if I would benefit more from Adamant.

 

[Donkey]

So, ultimately, whats more useful as a nature: Adamant or Jolly? I'm using Jolly at the moment but I was wondering if I would benefit more from Adamant.

If you are using Power Up Punch, then you probably want more speed ie Jolly else Palkia, Timid Yveltals/Xerneas outspeeds (I'm sure those exist on ladder, if I'm wrong then you can probably get away with Adamant). The Fake Out/Sucker Punch set can get away with Adamant though.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

I still prefer speedless for a 252hp 252+atk spread. PuP in uber isn't a thing.

 

[nmitchell890]

Agreeing that Power-Up Punch is a bad idea. Has anyone else had the idea of pairing this with Extreme Killer? Both are good revenge killers with powerful priority, both are checked by the same pokemon etc. Mega-Kangaskhan is the wallbreaker of sorts, luring and weakening said checks so that Extreme Killer can power past them much more easily. As a few examples:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 300-354 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With a partner that can lure and KO/weaken these pokemon as effectively as this, Extreme Killer can sweep with ease. This could make an extremely powerful offensive core. Thoughts?

 

[Haruno]

Agreeing that Power-Up Punch is a bad idea. Has anyone else had the idea of pairing this with Extreme Killer? Both are good revenge killers with powerful priority, both are checked by the same pokemon etc. Mega-Kangaskhan is the wallbreaker of sorts, luring and weakening said checks so that Extreme Killer can power past them much more easily. As a few examples:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 300-354 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With a partner that can lure and KO/weaken these pokemon as effectively as this, Extreme Killer can sweep with ease. This could make an extremely powerful offensive core. Thoughts?

Raymence was an awful core. That's my only thoughts on your suggestion.

 

[nmitchell890]

Raymence was an awful core. That's my only thoughts on your suggestion.

Salamence was always a below-average pokemon in Ubers. Also, Rayquaza and Salamence shared weaknesses to ice, dragon and rock. We are talking about arguably the best sweeper of Gen5 and a pokemon that is good enough to give it competition. This is worthy of discussion and testing at the very least.

 

[kingmidas]

Salamence was always a below-average pokemon in Ubers. Also, Rayquaza and Salamence shared weaknesses to ice, dragon and rock. We are talking about arguably the best sweeper of Gen5 and a pokemon that is good enough to give it competition. This is worthy of discussion and testing at the very least.

Ekiller was somewhat matched by ghostceus as a sweeper, and reymence was meant to overpower onces checks/counters like what you said, and slamence was in ubers for 2 gens so it wasn't always. A fighting weakness and suffering from the same answers being able to beat it makes it just as bad. Not to mention normal is a much worse offensive typing

 

[nmitchell890]

Ekiller was somewhat matched by ghostceus as a sweeper, and reymence was meant to overpower onces checks/counters like what you said, and slamence was in ubers for 2 gens so it wasn't always. A fighting weakness and suffering from the same answers being able to beat it makes it just as bad. Not to mention normal is a much worse offensive typing

This isn't wrong per se, but you are missing a few key points here. As of Gen5, the best set Rayquaza could use was a mixed wallbreaker set packing Draco Meteor and V-Create and Salamence would be using either Choice Scarf or Dragon Dance to abuse Moxie Outrage. With Xerneas around every corner in Gen6, this just wouldn't work. Salamence is rendered completely useless for a start, Xerneas is immune to Outrage and will take little damage from anything else Salamence uses. As for Rayquaza, it fares better than Salamence but is still unreliable It has to predict whether Xerneas or Lugia/Groudon is switching in, the stat drops from Draco Meteor and V-Create ensure it only gets one chance per switch in and if it predicts wrong, it will be forced out and will have taken Life Orb and Stealth Rock damage for nothing. In comparison, Extreme Killer was able to consistently sweep in Gen5 even without a partner dedicated to removing its checks and counters and with the introduction of Mega-Khangaskhan, it will be able to continue to do so, especially with the metagame shift to prepare more for Ho-Oh and Xerneas than either Extreme Killer or Mega-Khangaskhan. Their function is the same but I believe that Extreme Killer and Mega-Khangaskhan have the tools to make it work in Gen6 whereas Rayquaza and Salamence can't stand up anymore.

 

[Blue Jay]

Mega Kangaskhan is far from good enough to give Extremekiller Arceus competition. It suffers from far worse 4MSS, its priority moves are not nearly as good as Extremespeed, its bulk and, assuming similar investment, speed is completely inferior. It is very powerful, but it must choose between having the coverage to use that power to break walls or having priority so that it is destroyed by essentially any faster threat; it cannot have both. And while there is offensive synergy present between the two Pokemon, both provide absolutely no defensive synergy, forcing a player into very awkward teambuilding trying to switch into opposing threats with only four Pokemon while still hoping to maintain the offensive presence to justify using two Pokemon which contribute nothing defensively but some revenge killing utility (which could be more easily had elsewhere).

There are simply far better partners for Extremekiller Arceus, which contribute more to a team overall. Mega Gengar can quite effectively remove some Pokemon that check Extremekiller Arceus, as well as considerably threatening stall, the playstyle against which Extremekiller Arceus is easily the least effective. Double Dance Groudon is not only a threat in its own right, but also has excellent offensive synergy with Extremekiller Arceus while at least maintaining the ability to somewhat check opposing Pokemon physical attackers, most importantly limiting Zekrom and helping to check opposing Extremekiller Arceus.

Hyper offense may focus on overwhelming an opponent with sheer speed and power first and foremost, but putting 5 sweepers and an offensive hazard user on a team is never good teambuilding. Even hyper offense wants some defensive utility and switchins to very prominent threats; the key is simply using such which also provide a lot of offensive presence, such as Lustrous Orb Palkia, Life Orb/Choice Band Ho-Oh and Geomancy Xerneas.

 

[MMII]

Also, RayMence sucked in bw for the same reasons pretty much. It was a dpp thing. (never played that meta so can't say how good/bad it was there)

 

[clare]

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Return
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

I've been using Mega Kangaskhan for a bit, and the PuP set is actually a pretty threatening sweeper. Unlike using an Arceus forme, using Mega Khan has very little opportunity cost (in Ubers, the only viable Megas are Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, and Mega Blaziken), and it is deceptively hard to revenge kill after it boosts:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 280-330 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 306-360 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Two of the best Scarfers in Ubers are nearly OHKOed by +2 Sucker Punch, and outright OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Faster, frail threats are outright KOed by Sucker Punch:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 612-720 (173.3 - 203.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It also cannot be revenged by Extreme Killer Arceus:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 163-193 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO

Adamant Extreme Killer fails to net a guaranteed 2HKO (in other words, at +2 it cannot guarantee an OHKO), while in return Return OHKOes

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 456-537 (119.6 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and +2 PuP deals heavy damage to non-bulky variants:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 240-285 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Furthermore, 105/100/100 defenses provide enough bulk, even uninvested, to take a hit and set up:

252 Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 196-232 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dialga Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 169-199 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 217-256 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In return, Mega Kangaskhan outspeeds Ho-Oh and Dialga and can KO with Return and Earthquake respectively, while Palkia is KOed by +2 Sucker Punch.

It also deals heavy damage to bulky Steels which are hit neutrally by Earthquake:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 217-256 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unfortunately, the PuP set is completely shat on by the Giratina formes and Ghost Arceus. Giratina-O is immune to PuP, EQ, and Return, and can use Will-O-Wisp to cripple Kangaskhan. Giratina can be hit by EQ, but takes a pittance from unboosted EQ and prevents Kangaskhan from setting up; the same goes for Ghost Arceus. Even replacing Sucker Punch with Crunch doesn't help much; they have the same BP, and while Crunch lets Kangaskhan hit Giratina as it gets burned, it doesn't do much:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 195-231 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Furthermore, not having a priority move reduces its potency as a sweeper, as it is now liable to being revenge killed.

Overall, I'd say that while Mega Kangaskhan is nowhere near the threat level of the Extreme Killer, it is still an extremely powerful sweeper should it be given the opportunity to set up. Unlike, for example, Mega Blaziken, it has priority and doesn't rely on recoil moves to sweep, meaning it can take a huge hit during its setup turn and then attempt a sweep by taking out slower threats with Return and faster threats with Sucker Punch. It's biggest flaw is that not only is its sweeping set heavily walled by Ghost-types, it also cannot set up in front of them (Arceus and Blaziken can both set up with Swords Dance as the Ghost switches in, then deal heavy damage with Shadow Claw and Knock Off, respectively).

 

[ChaosNemesis]

using Mega Khan has very little opportunity cost (in Ubers, the only viable Megas are Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, and Mega Blaziken)

Mewtwo doesn't agree

 

[Jimmyftw]

Mega Kangaskhan is far from good enough to give Extremekiller Arceus competition. It suffers from far worse 4MSS, its priority moves are not nearly as good as Extremespeed, its bulk and, assuming similar investment, speed is completely inferior. It is very powerful, but it must choose between having the coverage to use that power to break walls or having priority so that it is destroyed by essentially any faster threat; it cannot have both. And while there is offensive synergy present between the two Pokemon, both provide absolutely no defensive synergy, forcing a player into very awkward teambuilding trying to switch into opposing threats with only four Pokemon while still hoping to maintain the offensive presence to justify using two defensive Pokemon which contribute nothing but some revenge killing utility (which could be more easily had elsewhere).

There are simply far better partners for Extremekiller Arceus, which contribute more to a team overall. Mega Gengar can quite effectively remove some Pokemon that check Extremekiller Arceus, as well as considerably threatening stall, the playstyle against which Extremekiller Arceus is easily the least effective. Double Dance Groudon is not only a threat in its own right, but also has excellent offensive synergy with Extremekiller Arceus while at least maintaining the ability to somewhat check opposing Pokemon physical attackers, most importantly limiting Zekrom and helping to check opposing Extremekiller Arceus.

Hyper offense may focus on overwhelming an opponent with sheer speed and power first and foremost, but putting 5 sweepers and an offensive hazard user on a team is never good teambuilding. Even hyper offense wants some defensive utility and switchins to very prominent threats; the key is simply using such which also provide a lot of offensive presence, such as Lustrous Orb Palkia, Life Orb/Choice Band Ho-Oh and Geomancy Xerneas.

This is missing the point. It is not that Mega-Kangakhan gives Ekiller direct competition, as it is pretty obvious that Ekiller is superior in the role that the two Pokemon share. However, Mega-Kangakhan is oftentimes a substitute for Ekiller so that the team can incorporate an Arceus form other than Ekiller. In this regard, Mega-Kangakhan is good enough to give Ekiller competition.

 

[Blue Jay]

This is missing the point. It is not that Mega-Kangakhan gives Ekiller direct competition, as it is pretty obvious that Ekiller is superior in the role that the two Pokemon share. However, Mega-Kangakhan is oftentimes a substitute for Ekiller so that the team can incorporate an Arceus form other than Ekiller. In this regard, Mega-Kangakhan is good enough to give Ekiller competition.

Considering my post and the discussion preceding it was by and large addressing the combination of Mega Kangaskhan and Extremekiller Arceus for offensive synergy, I daresay you're the one missing the point. Perhaps it would help if you read more than the first two of eight sentences, and the other posts while you're at it.

 

[Haruno]

So why does support kanga get no love :(

 

[Kebabe]

Im not sure if you can call it a support set, what I like with it is how it can break balance and stall without rest giratina or aegislash(or Chaney I guess). It's fast and with toxic and s-toss it can break pretty much any arceus form and also pokes like lando, skarm, groudon and def ho-oh/yveltal.

To bad it gets hard walled by aegi and giratina :(

 

[Blue Jay]

Im not sure if you can call it a support set, what I like with it is how it can break balance and stall without rest giratina or aegislash(or Chaney I guess). It's fast and with toxic and s-toss it can break pretty much any arceus form and also pokes like lando, skarm, groudon and def ho-oh/yveltal.

To bad it gets hard walled by aegi and giratina :(

Gengar also hard counters the set unless it does not Mega Evolve until Gengar has fainted, which can limit it a lot.