Kyogre [QC: 2/3] *ready for 3rd check*

[Fireburn]

Choice sets are always separated for that reason so yes

 

[Minority]

Hidden Power Ground deserves a moves mention and maybe more, especially when you talked about HP Grass in a meta where Gastro is even less relevant.

There is also a sever lack of a T Wave + 3 Attacks P Ogre set.

 

[Hack]

I'm not sure how I feel about Blizzard slash, I will consult other people about it. 76 speed for defensive Yveltal/Xern and to outspeed RP don before they set up. Scald slash is bye, Origin Pulse is just much better. I have to think more about this mon...

 

[Krauersaut]

Hidden Power Ground deserves a moves mention and maybe more, especially when you talked about HP Grass in a meta where Gastro is even less relevant.

There is also a sever lack of a T Wave + 3 Attacks P Ogre set.

no.

I'm not sure how I feel about Blizzard slash, I will consult other people about it. 76 speed for defensive Yveltal/Xern and to outspeed RP don before they set up. Scald slash is bye, Origin Pulse is just much better. I have to think more about this mon...

i myself wouldn't use it, but leaving scald slash in solely for the players that might want to

i can always put in the "good" variable of speed creep if you'd like, but that might be confusing to the kind of player that would actually be reading this

 

[Fireburn]

Drop Scald slash on CM set. POgre's purpose is to wallbreak and it needs maximum power to do that efficiently.

Also @ Hack, Blizzard slash is to OHKO Latis after a CM boost which is pretty helpful. We can talk more about it later though.

 

[shrang]

I'm wondering if we should test a mixed set. Primal Ogre actually has a pretty good 150 Atk stat. You may be able to work out a lure set for it.

Example:
+1 Modest Blizzard 252/0 Soul Dew Latias: 74.18% - 87.36%
4 Atk Avalanche vs 252/0 Latias: 74.18% - 87.36%

They do exactly the same, but Blizzard has a 70% hit rate + the fact that Latias can still Calm Mind alongside you, so you're banking on multiple Blizzards hitting, which is kind of annoying. That said, Blizzard hits pretty much every other threat for more so I'm not really sure how useful Avalanche would be.

4 Atk Waterfall vs 4/252 Blissey: 55.83% - 65.95%

That said, I have no idea how to fit something like this. Probably just like Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / Thunder / Avalanche or something, but sort of looks iffy. Still, it's something I'm curious on how well it works.

 

[Krauersaut]

I'm wondering if we should test a mixed set. Primal Ogre actually has a pretty good 150 Atk stat. You may be able to work out a lure set for it.

Example:
+1 Modest Blizzard 252/0 Soul Dew Latias: 74.18% - 87.36%
4 Atk Avalanche vs 252/0 Latias: 74.18% - 87.36%

They do exactly the same, but Blizzard has a 70% hit rate + the fact that Latias can still Calm Mind alongside you, so you're banking on multiple Blizzards hitting, which is kind of annoying. That said, Blizzard hits pretty much every other threat for more so I'm not really sure how useful Avalanche would be.

4 Atk Waterfall vs 4/252 Blissey: 55.83% - 65.95%

That said, I have no idea how to fit something like this. Probably just like Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / Thunder / Avalanche or something, but sort of looks iffy. Still, it's something I'm curious on how well it works.

i can add it into OO if you'd like, but i don't think mixed deserves a main set option

then again, I wouldn't be surprised if our resident mexican finds a way to use it in SPL

 

[Edgar]

I'd add this.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I've been trying out this set for a while now and I'm satisfied with how well it works. Ice Beam allows you to fully check Mega Salamence and also gets some damage on incoming Primal Groudon however, losing Roar doesn't let you check Ekiller so yeah. Set has done wonders for me :]

 

[Krauersaut]

I'd add this.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I've been trying out this set for a while now and I'm satisfied with how well it works. Ice Beam allows you to fully check Mega Salamence and also gets some damage on incoming Primal Groudon however, losing Roar doesn't let you check Ekiller so yeah. Set has done wonders for me :]

imo this wouldn't get a main set mention, but i can add some specifics into the already present OO for defensive phazing if it means a qc check :]

 

[ApplepieFTW]

How about a defensive CM set, origin pulse/ice beam/rest/calm mind? It sets up on the lati's with easy, and its a decent check to don as well. Rest+max phys def lets it actually set up on some things and not have to worry about getting worn down super fast. Because of its natural bulk, its also an emergency check to ekiller. Ice beam needed for pdon and dragons, while +1 origin pulse just hits hard.

 

[Fireburn]

Alright look, here is a list of all the stuff that should be done:

CM 3-Attacks: Run 76 Speed EVs to outrun 0 Speed Xerneas/Yveltal + standard RP Groudon (who runs 56 Speed). You shouldn't really advocate going higher unless its max Speed. Absolutely remove the bit about running Speed creep on other base 90's - much of it is arbitrary and not recommended to discuss in analyses unless it for a specific benchmark (like 0 Speed base 99). Other partners to include are things that can take advantage of Primal Kyogre's ability to break walls. Also you can't really set up on Giratina-O since it will just Shadow Force/DTail you.

Defensive: Add Edgar's set, it's good. Mention an SDef spread with it + Roar to help check Xern/Darkrai/CM Arcs better. It should be set #2. Take some time testing it before you write it so you have an idea of what to use it with.

Scarf: Remove Blizzard, it's only worth considering on the CM Primal set. Don't mention bulky spreads, the current one is the only one worth considering. The bit about not requiring much team support is false, it absolutely needs ways to remove Primal Groudon + Latis (mostly Groudon) and ideally wants Defog support to preserve the power of Water Spout. Mention specific partners that handle that stuff - it's not enough to say "run a PDon check." Who does that well + works well with Kyogre? There are better checks you can mention than Landorus-T, who gets bopped by Lava Plume from support sets i.e. the one that checks Kyogre the hardest.

While we're on that topic, Pursuit support works great with this set (and Kyogre in general) to get rid of Latis.

Specs: Move this to OO. It is much inferior to the Primal forme at breaking walls since it lacks Primordial Sea and needs to be Choice locked, plus the move that helps you actually break walls (Water Spout) is completely neutralized by the most common Pokemon in the tier right now. Scarf is the only set worth considering on regular Kyogre.

Other Options: HP Ground and physical moves can go here. Also Thunder Wave. HP Grass should be removed, Gastrodon is pretty much unviable with Primal Groudon invalidating its only niche and there is no other reason to run it.

Counters: Should be Primal Groudon -> Latis -> Palkia -> Ferrothorn -> Dialga -> Zekrom -> Grass Arceus -> Strong physical revenge killers (Rayquaza and Mega Mence go here). Tentacruel is iffy since it loses to the best/most common set, I wouldn't even mention it.

No drama, no need to get defensive, just a nice n clean list of what needs to be done (and I expect you to do all of it).

 

[Krauersaut]

THE SHITSTORM IS OVER

*ready for QC :]*

 

[shrang]

Calm Mind:
- EVs: If 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe is ideal, then use it (although I'm not sure about this since neither defensive Xern or Ygod can beat CM P Ogre like ever except if you're weakened, and Genesect always runs max Speed). It's not speed creeping if you're aiming for the minimum of something faster. Just stick to one number and don't advocate running more. It should be the imperative of the player themself to realise this and not the job of the analysis (because it'll just lead to sets changing EVs in response to another mon's speed).
- Add damage calcs to show the difference in power and KOs achieved by Ice Beam and Blizzard

Scarf:
From Fireburn:

Mention specific partners that handle that stuff - it's not enough to say "run a PDon check." Who does that well + works well with Kyogre? There are better checks you can mention than Landorus-T, who gets bopped by Lava Plume from support sets i.e. the one that checks Kyogre the hardest.

Do what he said there, please. Giratina-O, Latis, Groundceus, Lugia etc. Naming one shaky check is a poor effort to address this.

OO:
- Mention Toxic too, if also fucks with lots of Kyogre's checks.

In general:
- Give Pursuit a bigger mention. Getting rid of Lati@s really helps

Fix these and I'll approve

 

[PROBLEMS]

if you fix with the stuff shrang mentioned above I'll approve also

edit: why am i agreeing with shrang xD

 

[Edgar]

I wouldn't add a slash for Origin Pulse on the defensive set, Scald already 2HKOs 0 HP Arceus and idk, I find it really hard to justify Origin Pulse over Scald when you're trying to burn switch-ins and not break walls.

 

[Krauersaut]

Calm Mind:
- EVs: If 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe is ideal, then use it (although I'm not sure about this since neither defensive Xern or Ygod can beat CM P Ogre like ever except if you're weakened, and Genesect always runs max Speed). It's not speed creeping if you're aiming for the minimum of something faster. Just stick to one number and don't advocate running more. It should be the imperative of the player themself to realise this and not the job of the analysis (because it'll just lead to sets changing EVs in response to another mon's speed).
- Add damage calcs to show the difference in power and KOs achieved by Ice Beam and Blizzard

Scarf:
From Fireburn:


Do what he said there, please. Giratina-O, Latis, Groundceus, Lugia etc. Naming one shaky check is a poor effort to address this.

OO:
- Mention Toxic too, if also fucks with lots of Kyogre's checks.

In general:
- Give Pursuit a bigger mention. Getting rid of Lati@s really helps

Fix these and I'll approve

this is done and ready for checking

 

[Politoad]

I think you should mention that Primal Groudon is a shaky check because Kyogre in primal forme can just come in and change the weather and force it to switch.

 

[SparksBlade]

POgre can't "just come in" on PDon, it takes a lot of damage from any of its attacks except fire moves

 

[Krauersaut]

I think you should mention that Primal Groudon is a shaky check because Kyogre in primal forme can just come in and change the weather and force it to switch.

no

 

[Politoad]

POgre can't "just come in" on PDon, it takes a lot of damage from any of its attacks except fire moves

It's outsped though, so if it manages to get a free switch in due slow voltturn / teammate killed it can outsped and ohko.

im talkkin bout kyogre

 

[Krauersaut]

It's outsped though, so if it manages to get a free switch in due slow voltturn / teammate killed it can outsped and ohko

this analysis is based on kyogre

any situation in which kyogre is being used as a switch in to groudon is completely irrelevant

 

[Lemonade]

"It is advised to run a considerable amount of speed creep to outrun base 90s."

I don't think you should be telling players to run creep at all because now you've made an arbitrary basis for what Speed to reach. It's basically like now other mons need / can / should run creep to "outspeed creeping Kyogre" which is how much exactly? The standard is EVing so that a lower base outspeeds a higher base since it's a solid number, but creeping creep or the same base speed leads to a mess. And it doesn't make sense that only Kyogre should be creeping on base 90s, what about Groudon etc.? Like, Groudon is running Speed for Timid Diance or whatever, but a hidden implication is being faster than Kyogre. This is ok though since Timid Diance isn't an arbitrary number and doesn't lead to cross-analyses creeps.

I probably didn't explain this well, but like an example is Doublade creeps Rhyperior, but Rhyperior doesn't creep Doublade because if it did the Doublade analysis would be affected (and anything else creeping Rhyperior), which in turn would affect the Rhyperior analysis again, etc. Even though it is advisable to run Speed creep on Rhyperior for Doublade and ever other Rhyperior, the analysis doesn't say to and invests in bulk because that's what Rhyp needs.

 

[Krauersaut]

"It is advised to run a considerable amount of speed creep to outrun base 90s."

I don't think you should be telling players to run creep at all because now you've made an arbitrary basis for what Speed to reach. It's basically like now other mons need / can / should run creep to "outspeed creeping Kyogre" which is how much exactly? The standard is EVing so that a lower base outspeeds a higher base since it's a solid number, but creeping creep or the same base speed leads to a mess. And it doesn't make sense that only Kyogre should be creeping on base 90s, what about Groudon etc.? Like, Groudon is running Speed for Timid Diance or whatever, but a hidden implication is being faster than Kyogre. This is ok though since Timid Diance isn't an arbitrary number and doesn't lead to cross-analyses creeps.

I probably didn't explain this well, but like an example is Doublade creeps Rhyperior, but Rhyperior doesn't creep Doublade because if it did the Doublade analysis would be affected (and anything else creeping Rhyperior), which in turn would affect the Rhyperior analysis again, etc. Even though it is advisable to run Speed creep on Rhyperior for Doublade and ever other Rhyperior, the analysis doesn't say to and invests in bulk because that's what Rhyp needs.

Apologies if I horribly misconstrued this post, but I find it confusing - what do you want me to do, exactly 0.0 I removed the arbitrary 72 speed to outrun PhysDef 99s, and included a statement for a bit of speed creep to have a better chance at outrunning other base 90s - I'm not sure how that negatively affects this analysis or any other one.

 

[Jukain]

he's saying you shouldn't even suggest creep because then for instance why shouldn't groudon suggest creep to outrun kyogre? it's a pretty arbitrary statement that has no value to a new player because what does it mean to them to run 'some speed creep'. that could be 8 evs, that could be 36 evs, that could be 100 evs. there's no 'right answer' to the amount of speed creep one should run, either. it's best to exclude entirely.

 

[Lemonade]

The 72 is not arbitrary but as noted somewhere in this thread I think, Ogre doesn't need to creep Yveltal.

But yeah basically what Jukain said, and suggesting to outspeed yourself doesn't make sense because the only way you can hope to do so is 252+ which is obviously excessive