Latent Prejudice

Preamble:

I was at a club Saturday night with a few friends, relaxing and enjoying myself, when a gay guy started to hit on me. To be fair, gay guys in Beijing don't have the option of going to specific gay-clubs or gay-bars if they want to pick up other guys, because the Beijing government shut them all down in preparation for the olympics. At first, I thought he was just an outgoing guy, but it became pretty clear pretty quickly that he was trying to hit on me. I told him in my broken Chinese that I wasn't gay, and he should try somebody else. Perhaps half an hour later, as I was dancing, he came up to me and tried to do some gay dirty dancing. I told him once more that I really wasn't gay, and he should really fuck off. He had a couple friends with him, and I told them to keep him away from me. Perhaps another half an hour later, I went outside the club to make a phone call, and the guy sits down next to me. I tell him one last time to fuck off, he instead puts his arm around me, and I snap a bit. I punch him in the stomach, he doubles over, I knee him in the nose, he falls to the ground, and I yell at him in a probably incoherent mix of poor English and poor Chinese.

That's the bulk of the story, and how I've told it to my friends. I was at a club, minding my own business, having a good time, and this gay guy wouldn't leave me alone. After a whole bunch of warnings, I flipped out and punched him. It's true, but it doesn't really get to the heart of the matter. The fact is, as I walked out of the club to make my phone call, I saw the guy and his friends already out there. At this point, I had a whole bunch of options. I could have turned around, walked back into the club, and waited another ten minutes to make the call. I could have walked by them, around a corner, and made a phone call where they couldn't see me. Instead, I walked right past the group, and sat down on the bench which I'm pretty sure is expressly provided for people who need to make phone calls. The bench wasn't more than twenty feet away from the guy who had been hitting on me. As I walked by him, as I sat down on the bench, as I started dialing my friend's number, the whole time I was keenly aware that the gay guy was going to come, was going to try hitting on me once more, and I was going to end up punching him. I knew beforehand exactly how it was going to happen, could've avoided the confrontation in a whole bunch of ways, and yet I didn't. I didn't actually "snap," I was preparing myself for the fight before he had even sat down. When he pushed it just that little bit too far, I reacted barbarically and savagely. Why? Because I'm homophobic.

Now I'm not homophobic in your sterotypical redneck sense. I don't go out punching gay people regularly, I don't believe it's a sin to be gay, I've got my share of gay friends (I hate this "I'm not prejudiced! I've got friends who are _______!" defense), had I lived in California would have voted no to prop 8, etc. For the most part, I genuinely have no problem with gay people. Intellectually and as a concept, it's true. When a gay guy actively goes out of his way to make his sexuality my business, however, I get uncomfortable. This goes for one hell of an awkward and one-sided conversation about what gay sex was like (I'm still surprised it wasn't apparent I did not want the guy to share), it goes for (admittedly non-explicit) pictures of cartoon cowboys having gay sex in Atlas' signature, it goes for another really ridiculously awkward conversation in which a gay member of my swim team went around rating all the guys' anatomy, and so on.

This is my situation. There are plenty of excuses for my behavior in any specific case, which I am mostly restraining from offering, because it gets away from the central issue of the fact that gay guys make me uncomfortable (and now, in one case, violent). I open this topic in the hope that people will both discuss their own latent prejudices (perhaps the bigotry of low expectations?), or at the very least think a little bit about it. I know for a long time in my life I was convinced I was absolutely angelic, containing no prejudice whatsoever, but it was as ridiculous for me as it would be for anyone else. I purposely wrote prejudice in the thread title so as not to constrain the conversation to homophobia. I doubt I'll find anyone here who will freely admit to being even slightly racist, but I hold out some hope for sexists.
 

Raj

CAP Playtesting Expert
There really isn't a problem w/ what you did. No means no, no matter what. Strike three and your out! You set groundrules and this guy pushed the envelope. It doesn't even matter that the guy was gay, he was just bothering you too much. Women hit guys for doing the same thing. Borat got hit in NY for asking some guys name...

Point is, while you probably could have evaded him, he shouldn't have harrassed you so, and you took measures to make him stop. I've got 2 cookies that say he won't do it again, should you meet again.
 
He put your arm around you and violated your privacy after repeated warnings. I would have punched him or at least pushed him away. If you think that's homophobic then I think you have other problems rather then prejudice.
 
If we take a look at the various options I could have taken

-Wait ten minutes to make a phone call
-Make the phone call and simply walk away after he approaches me again
-Walk around the corner to make a phone call

-Punch him in the stomach, follow this up with a knee to his nose, and yell at him while he is lying, squirming, screaming on the ground with a disgusting mixture of blood, snot, and tears pouring out of him

One of these things is not like the other. Do I have a right to sit down on whatever bench I choose to make a phone call unmolested? Yup. It doesn't change the fact that I knew when I sat down I was essentially provoking him, and was anticipating and even looking forward to the inevitable.

Just because the guy was a bit of an asshole and probably deserved to get punched is not changing my essential point here, which is that (in a chivas-uninhibited state) I got so angry at a gay guy hitting on me that I purposely provoked him one last time so I could hit him. The individual scenario is really NOT what I am looking to discuss here, however. What happened Saturday night served to get me to do a little bit of thinking / introspection, however, and I've come pretty much come to terms with the fact that gay guys really do make me uncomfortable aka homophobia.

This is pretty ironic. Never before would I have imagined one day saying to somebody, "No, I really am homophobic, I swear!"
 

Raj

CAP Playtesting Expert
You really shouldn't go out of your way to make yourself guilty, but if you insist you're a homophobe, well... there's nothing to it, so what lol.Just don't act on it if they don't do anything to you.

Question: does lesbian porn bother you?
(if it does you may be a gay homophobe jk)
 

Surgo

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I'll admit to latent racism.

It's not in the sense that I hate black people. It's not in the sense that I don't think they're as good as other people (because they are as good as anyone else). It's basically not stereotypical racism in all the same qualities that what you experienced wasn't stereotypical homophobia.

What is it, then? It's that stupid slight paranoia that involves you being just a bit more careful, physically, around a black person. It's totally stupid and ridiculous, and like Glen said a while back: "it's like you get mugged once and from then on whenever you see a black guy you cross the street, fucking ridiculous". So, yeah, there you go. I'll admit it.

I'm sure I have some latent sexism too, which is just weird considering how most of my professors were female, but I'm not so sure how it manifests. None of us are angelic I guess.

At the same time, I'm not really bothered by any of this. I don't think it makes me a bad person or whatnot. I feel like there's a lot of truth in that now-famous line from Avenue Q: "Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes".
 
yeah. I'm latently racist in the sense it tends to be black guys that come up to me when I'm walking round the shittier parts of bristol, and I hate them. fucking hate them. I hate any man that thinks it's his god-given right to just walk up to me in the street and grope me or tell me he finds me 'sexy' and would like a fuck.. but it tends to be black guys, who also tend to be taller, and larger, and therefore more intimidating.

I don't think what you did was especially homophobic. A lot of women would do the same if there wasn't the fear of it turning into sexual violence, you however have the physical capacity to fight back and aren't taught to fear that, so you were just protecting your personal space, which is a very reasonable thing to do.
 
3 strikes and you get your head kicked in. It seems like a reasonable policy for ANYONE annoying you.
 
I think I tend towards a bit of reverse racism when it comes to Aboriginal people. By that I mean I think I selectively treat them better than I do any other group of people, and I have no idea why I do it.
 
I'll admit that although i'm a guy, i do display quite a few "non-guy" qualities. For instance, i mix a lot with girls (in my college, 10 of my best friends were all girls), i don't like swearing, i don't like clubbing, i don't like sports. I'm quite biased against guys in general, if i'm a leader i'll tend to give girls the easier jobs, and so on.

I don't know whether that counts as latent sexuality though.
 
Hmm I don't take kindly to the black stereo-typing then again I grew in more 'white' surroundings (not the ghetto). I'm often told by my friends I act white, which has a bit of truth surrounding it I not a very confrontational person, work hard in school, and trust me it's easier to find a smart white kid, then a smart black I would know I'm still looking for a person who at least matches my intelligence, that is my race. Anyway don't be streotyping because not all blacks are this perverted, it's a geographical thing more than jsut one race, as in some high class white neighbor hoods, you'll find a white men that act just as piggish, you should be against those kind of mens not men of a particular race.

Back on topic, I actually had a similar expierience this guy in my Cooking Class thought I was gay I guess and he touched my area and I had to cuss him the fuck out. Then again how many straight black guys take cooking class, lol.

On the topic of sexism towards guy, I'd agree with the above posted I tend to be nicer to girls, but with my guy friends I'm pretty hard, I hate when I see guys treating girls espeically ones I know in an inproper fashion once this guy assualted my best friend who was a girl, I led a 5 man attack against him, in all retrospect probably not the best idea as I almost got in trouble for it, but it just tears me up inside.
 
um. I'm not saying I hate black people, but the last four times I have been out in bristol I have been verbally, sexually harassed in the street by black men. and it is setting a bit of a trend.
I think if you bother to read my post it will quite clearly state I hate every man that does that. Other groups of men tend to harass in more insidious ways.
 
I live in a pretty conservative region of California (the Central Valley) and this weekend I participated in a speech tournament in the Bay Area. Discrimination was a pretty common topic in the speeches that I watched, and "discrimination" and "homosexuality" were two subjects that appeared with exactly the same frequency. I wouldn't say that any specific individual speaking on this subject really bothered me, but it did kind of bug me that nobody mentioned discrimination on the basis of class or social standing.

Although I do believe that homosexuals are often the victims of discrimination, I find that the number of people who are discriminated against on the basis of income is far greater. But nobody wanted to talk about classism. I guess it kind of makes me a little bit frustrated that classism has become so pedestrian that it isn't even worth mentioning; I get the feeling that more people chose to talk about discrimination on the basis of sexual preference (despite the fact that it's relatively uncommon) simply because homosexuality is, for lack of a better term, sexy. If a homeless man is killed by a group of parading gangsters for no other reason than that he's homeless, nobody cares. But if a gay man is killed by a group of parading gangsters for no other reason than that he's gay, it gets widely publicized and turned into a rallying point for activists. The implication seems to be that middle-class homosexuals are more deserving of compassion and understanding than impoverished heterosexuals.

It also seems a bit juvenile, but I've noticed in high school that the consensus seems to be that while it's not okay to speak derisively of someone who is a homosexual, it's perfectly okay to speak derisively of the kid who sits in the corner of the library during lunch with his head buried in a book.

I wouldn't really say that I have a bone to pick with homosexuals, but I don't really like to spend time with people who talk excessively about homosexuality.

Also regarding that same speech tournament: I was able to watch some Original Prose. The only two finalists I recognized as Latinas gave speeches specifically concerning their race. Both girls gave speeches about encountering racist comments in the workplace and being regarded derisively. I certainly don't feel that these complaints aren't justified. Given that California shares a border with Mexico and for that reason has a relatively high Hispanic population, it's not uncommon for locals to harbor resentment toward illegal immigrants, and when California-born Hispanics or legal immigrants are regarded as being cut from the same cloth, they have every right to complain. However, I can't help but feel that by complaining about this treatment and highlighting the worst examples they aren't making things worse. It wasn't that some of the Hispanic females I saw were complaining about racism, it's that all of them were (in the top tier round). And despite the fact that they were well-represented, none of the speeches by blacks and Asians (or male Hispanics) that I saw brought up the subject of racism.

I've found that people who complain the most vocally about racism are the most racist. I once met a Hispanic fellow who went on at great length about how excellent Mexican-Americans were, often comparing them to other races. (So it's not okay to say that Hispanics are inferior but it's perfectly fine to say that they're superior?)

The election also disgusted me in many regards. Although I'm not upset that people voted for Obama, I am upset about the reasons that many people had for casting their vote. I actually met people who claimed they supported Obama because he was black. This kind of reverse ad hominem argument really saddens me. If Obama really is the right man for the job, then his race should be irrelevant. Also, post-election, I read more than one editorial praising the American people for their choice to elect a black man, calling the United States a new enlightened society. The implication seems to be that had we chosen to elect McCain instead, we would be an unenlightened backwards society. I have nothing against Obama, but his fan club I could certainly do without.


I think my biggest frustration is that I am constantly being told that I can be proud to be anything but male, white, or heterosexual. I'm really "racist" and "sexist" in the sense that I tend to assume that everyone is the victim of reverse discrimination. When I see a black politician elected to office, or a Hispanic student chosen to receive a scholarship award, I can't help but think to myself, "I wonder if they would have gotten that if they were white?" I think I'll always have a latent prejudice against blacks, Hispanics, and females simply because things like affirmative action have taken opportunities away from people like me and they've been able to reap the benefits.
 

Surgo

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do you ever stop to think why things like affirmative action are needed?
Yeah, I stop to think about it once in a while. And the answer I always come up with is "definitely not in its current form, hell no."
 
Why should they be supported?

Proponents talk about the "polarization" of politics, meaning that whites in the South ONLY vote Republican (the numbers were around 88% of Mississippi whites voted for McCain in the last election, the highest of such percentage). However, the proponents fail to mention the fact that 97% of ALL blacks voted for Obama. In every election in modern times, African American voters have almost always voted for the Democratic candidate in the 90%'s and above. Thus, the problem with Affirmative Action is who is it trying to equal out?

And to the main topic, what you did was not in any way prejudice; it was certainly their fault. But I feel that everyone holds prejudice views and will release them. I know that here in the US, common belief, especially among minorities, is that only whites are racist and hold prejudice views. However, even minority groups hold prejudices.

So even if you did it based on prejudices, so what. It was their fault, and its not like you will be seeing him in any amount of time anyway.
 
Hmm I don't take kindly to the black stereo-typing then again I grew in more 'white' surroundings (not the ghetto). I'm often told by my friends I act white, which has a bit of truth surrounding it I not a very confrontational person, work hard in school, and trust me it's easier to find a smart white kid, then a smart black I would know I'm still looking for a person who at least matches my intelligence, that is my race.
Hmm, interesting. You say that you dislike black stereotyping, yet you yourself are stereotyping in the selection that I bolded. It really is detrimental towards the progress of not being seen as a "stereotype" by making such a comment.

I too grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood(I was the only black in Catholic school in the city) and I never had a problem with racism; in fact I only remember one incident with a female who called me racial slurs and my entire class literally shunned her.

However when I moved from the city to the country(farmlands), I noticed a very distinct difference in how I was treated by the whites in that area. Like I was a ghetto thug, a theft, racial slurs were thrown at me every single day at school, my life "threatened". I was shocked at the radical difference from the whites I used to be around to the ones I've dealt with now.

Because of the events that happened to me I've developed a slight apprehension towards whites(at least those in my area). I really am quite sick and tired of hearing after they take the chance to get to know me.."Oh you are not like the other black people. You are well articulated and smart" or something along those lines. Then they are surprised when I don't want to continue the conversation or even stay near them. Why couldn't they just judge me as a person in the first place?
----

Nate I felt that what you did what justifiable because of that fact that he touched you. I hate it when people touch me when I tell them not to. You've made several attempts to tell him to stop and he simply did not listen.
 
do you ever stop to think why things like affirmative action are needed?
One thing that has always irked me about affirmative action is that feminist movements have always stressed the need for gender equality in "desirable" positions. If a research institute has a disproportionately large percentage of men, feminists complain. Yet nearly every city in America has a disproportionately large percentage number of men working as garbage collectors, and somehow feminists don't see this as something to complain about.

I guess feminists are another reason that I have a prejudice against females. I'm speaking more of modern feminism, of course; there was a point in time when the feminist movement really was concerned with achieving equal rights.
 
oh no. not GARBAGE COLLECTION.
I'd put that on a par with working as a nursing assistant/care assistant (and to be honest having done both I think on reflection emptying colostomy bags daily is worse) and oh yeah. how many men do those? none, pretty much.
According to the internet, a binman here can earn £20000-£25000 a year wheras a care assistant will be working unsociable hours, 70 hours a week and be lucky to reach 13k.
Right. Because men have it SO worse off.
 
um. I'm not saying I hate black people, but the last four times I have been out in bristol I have been verbally, sexually harassed in the street by black men. and it is setting a bit of a trend.
I think if you bother to read my post it will quite clearly state I hate every man that does that. Other groups of men tend to harass in more insidious ways.
Maybe I mis-interpeted but this sounds like I hate black men not the guys who harrass you,

I'm latently racist in the sense it tends to be black guys that come up to me when I'm walking round the shittier parts of bristol, and I hate them. fucking hate them.
reword to guys like that maybe, I did read the whole post this time and the time before so obviously it's easily mis-interpeted.

@EVO- Not saying that Blacks aren't just as smart I'm saying that in certain areas it's alot harder to find smart black men and woman for that matter, because they fall into the stereotype supporting my afformation that people are decided by there surroundings not their race, it's not like I don't know black kids my age, but they for soem reason feel that they have to follow the streotype placed upon them by society, until quite recently actually I was the only black kid in my whole school, and when in those surrounding I was constantly pounded with what a black kid should act like, play basketball, be a playa (lol), be tough, I for one found it kind of funny how all these kids who weren't black are telling me what I'm supposed to act like. It all boils down to the class system I guess, just like a southern, racher, good boy would differ from a big city, rich, cool boy.
 
I hate any man that thinks it's his god-given right to just walk up to me in the street and grope me or tell me he finds me 'sexy' and would like a fuck.. but it tends to be black guys

Read.
All true things. Coincidence? Maybe. The last four or five guys that have come up to me and harassed me in the street are black. The men that gang-raped a friend of mine were black. black men? no. black men from a particular area of bristol? definitely.
 
He violated your personal space, you told him not to. He did it again, you are within your rights to remove his arm however you please. If he tries to sue you it's an easy sexual harassment countersuit, he'll drop it if he's smart. If you're arrested by the police tell the story, in a case like this you were still in the right.

You're not a homophobe just because you don't want gay chinese men touching you. He obviously needs to learn self control if he's hitting on you, a straight man, after being told no. Hopefully he learned a lesson from the incident, no means no.
 

Surgo

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I'd appreciate it if this thread didn't turn into some idiot rants on both ends about affirmative action and instead stuck to the topic of discussing latent prejudices, thanks.
 
I have a couple quick things:

-I think there should be no affirmative action on a basis of race, but instead on a basis of class. As a white guy from the upper class, it doesn't affect me either way...I'm not expecting to benefit from anything. College admissions were a little bit of an eye-opener for me, however. A whole bunch of my black friends all got into ivy-league schools that a lot of their smarter white counterparts couldn't. If I had been rejected from a whole bunch of very nice schools, and black people less capable than I were accepted due to a quota system, I would be extremely pissed. Further exacerbating this issue is that these black students (in my specific scenario) aren't from ghettos or overcoming great obstacles in their life; they're the sons of millionaires becoming the unintentional beneficiaries of policies which should be helping the disadvantaged. The current policy is unfair to lower-class people in general, but especially lower-class whites.

-And this one is going to piss Akuchi off. Men and women are not the same. I think, as a concept, we can all accept this. One aspect of that is intelligence. I read an extremely interesting study performed (if my memory serves me correctly) perhaps a year or so ago. This study found that, on average, men and women had almost equal intelligence levels. However, the men's intelligence distribution was more widely distributed (higher standard deviation) than that of the women's. What does that mean? It means that you are more likely to find an extremely ridiculously smart (or stupid) man than you are to find an extremely ridiculously smart (or stupid) woman.

There are a couple conclusions one could attempt to draw from this study. One might be that the current imbalance in the most high-powered positions is perhaps not as imbalanced as it originally appears. If we assume that for a given CEO position we are only interviewing applicants who are among the top 1% in intelligence, there are (if we are to believe this study) simply more men than women out there who fit that description. Another might be that, as a man smarter than average, you are therefore more likely to find a man as smart as you than a woman as smart as you. The same also goes in reverse, of course.

It was an extremely interesting study, and it didn't get nearly the attention it deserved. It wasn't done on a large enough scale to be called conclusive by any stretch of the word, so my musings are just that. The sad fact is this study quickly became a bit of a taboo subject, and nobody really wanted to discuss it or further the research. The New York Times described it on their front page as something like "New Study Finds Men and Women of Equal Intelligence," which although true takes any of the interesting parts of the study and throws them out of the window in favor of political correctness.

To be clear, I don't think that study really in any way excuses the current imbalance. I believe that the current imbalances still exist, but I think that studies such as this one might point to the imbalance perhaps not being as severe as otherwise thought. For example, if we are going to use average wages of men and women, women still earn significantly less than men despite the fact that, on average, the study had found them to be of approximately equal intelligence. Countering that argument is the fact that the top 1% of salaries significantly unbalance average salary numbers far further than the bottom 1% of salaries, and therefore if we presume the top 1% goes to more men than women (for the above-stated reasons), perhaps the imbalance within the bulk of society is not as severe as otherwise thought.

So tl;dr: men and women are not equal. While there are probably still a whole bunch of inequalities that still exist that shouldn't, I don't think that the situation is as severe as many make it out to be. Interesting research which might back my point are considered politically incorrect and can't get taken as far as they probably should.

edit: jeez, seeing as i started typing before surgo that means i spent almost half an hour on a couple of "quick things."
 

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