Lati@s in OU??

[umbarsc]

Yes, maybe they aren't broken in OU without Soul Dew, maybe they are, whatever. But that's entirely irrelevant. You can't say "without X, Y could be in tier Z". Why don't we throw a Choice Band on Blissey and stick her in NU? Let's take away Rayquaza's DD or Specs/Scarf, or Kyogre's Scarf or Calm Mind, and OU them. I know, let's make Wobba carry either Counter or Mirror Coat (but not both) and see how she fares in OU. Perhaps without Earthquake or Outrage/Dragon Claw, I could carry a Garchomp with me on my UU teams.

All this is irrelevant, because Rayquaza WILL have DD or a Choice item, Blissey will NOT hold a Choice Band, Wobba WILL carry both Counter and Mirror Coat, and Garchomp WILL use at least one of its STABs always. We rank them based on their highest potential, not on what they can or won't do. Why should we make all these rules and exceptions, when Lati@s (or any of my examples) are perfectly usable in their respective tiers?

that being said, however, they kinda suck in ubers.

Hahaha, do you mean Lati@s? They are perfectly awesome in ubers, with their awesome SpDef and SpAtt, and some great resistances, like Water.

 

[zxn666]

no they suck in ubers

knock off their soul dew=death

pokemon that rely entirely on their items to be able to even function= knock off bait

however, we need more pokemon that can use knock off tho

 

[umbarsc]

no they suck in ubers

knock off their soul dew=death

pokemon that rely entirely on their items to be able to even function= knock off bait

however, we need more pokemon that can use knock off tho

The only good uber Knock Off user is Deoxys-D, and they aren't that common. Plus, one Calm Mind is equivalent to holding a Soul Dew anyways.

 

[Lee]

Lee, i honestly dont see the reasoning behind your post, you post what moves Lati@s needs in order to counter pokemon that could possibly give them trouble, but they can't possibly have all of those moves on one set.

Yes, I entirely agree with you. Really I do. But on the flipside of the coin, you can't just list a load of Pokemon and define them as definate counters to the Latis, because you don't know what set the Dragons are packing. It's just like saying Blissey is a definate counter to Salamence, without taking into consideration the fact that Salamence can slaughter Blissey if you guess the wrong set.

The "point" of my post was to demonstrate that the Latis can do a lot more than SuperSpecsMence and that their unpredictability should be factored in to any decision.

But I also agree with the latter part of your post...theorymon is prone to failure, and testing out Pokemon in battle is a lot more reliable than testing them on paper.

 

[Dark Android]

I think Lati@s should stay in ubers, because it has beastly typing and a good ability that makes it somewhat easy to switch them in while having two excellent 90 Base Power STAB attacks, they have access to both Calm Mind and Recover, allowing them to setup easily while maintaining an average defense, and they have good movepools that allow them to type-trump many types(T-Bolt, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, Surf), and even Blissey is sometimes powerless to stop them. If they have either multiple CM's or Safeguard+Recover/Rest, they can beat the crap out of Blissey unless it has Light Screen and a crapload of Special Defense EVs.

 

[evolutia]

theorymon is prone to failure, and testing out Pokemon in battle is a lot more reliable than testing them on paper.

^^^
This. I'm all for testing the Lati's so I know once and for all that they are uber. I'm a bit sick of theory, it's time for testing.

 

[astrohawke]

Yes, I entirely agree with you. Really I do. But on the flipside of the coin, you can't just list a load of Pokemon and define them as definate counters to the Latis, because you don't know what set the Dragons are packing. It's just like saying Blissey is a definate counter to Salamence, without taking into consideration the fact that Salamence can slaughter Blissey if you guess the wrong set.

The "point" of my post was to demonstrate that the Latis can do a lot more than SuperSpecsMence and that their unpredictability should be factored in to any decision.

But I also agree with the latter part of your post...theorymon is prone to failure, and testing out Pokemon in battle is a lot more reliable than testing them on paper.

I think what he was listing was less a list of "counters" in the sense of the definition that they can switch in with no harm to themselves, and more of a list of currently very OU pokemon that can deal with lati@s in one way or another.

Taking garchomp as an example, it may not be able to switch into a dragon attack but with prediction, it can certainly switch in and scare lati@s off with scarf outrage. Perhaps prediction may not be the best example as it's liable to debate.

So consider forcing your opponent to give you a free switch. Unlike the threat of salamence whose unpredictability allows it to be special, physical or mixed, lati@s will always be special. So the safest switch in would always be blissey. Now it may turn out to be a cm set blissey cannot handle, but again, unlike salamence, the cm set does not pose an immediately threat to blissey unlike a physical mence set. So it begins to cm and more likely than not, it will not attempt to attack you until it has 6 cms under its belt and can actually hurt blissey significantly. This gives you opportunities to switch. If you're still not confident, you can force its hand further by just throwing seismic tosses at it until it needs to recover and when it does, there's your switching opportunity.

I actually find lati@s less threatening in general than salamence because mence is far more unpredictable. Blissey at least has a first safe switch into lati@s to scout its set and we know just about every team has a blissey. The same cannot be said for salamence whose mixmence set is really only countered by cresselia.

I think for most people, the main threat of the lati twins is not its movepool, its stats etc etc which is all just an excuse because there are OU pokemon that can deal with them perfectly fine and even OU pokemon with the same capabilities. It's more that unlike the others, it has no 4x weak to exploit. I mean if things should go wrong, we can always ice shard sala/chomp or close combat ttar or whatever. But if things go wrong against lati@s, without that prominent 4x weak, it just seems so much harder to take down.

Though to make it clear, I'm not supporting lati@s usage in OU even though it sounds like it. I am all for testing it though.

 

[Trust]

We could test it in a Tournament like the Deowys one. And about it, how does the test go? some conclusions??

 

[Gandalf the blue]

I dont think they need to be tested, with Cresselia, Bronzong and Blissey in 3/4 of all teams, which wall them completely. I mean why wouldnt gengarbe Uber, he hash the same Speed and sp.atk, can hit all Pokemon hard ( Even Blissey) and has the same nasty weakness to Pursuit. He may not CM, but if the Latis use it, they have to few moveslots, or oa Snibunna siwtches in safely.
I wanted to say so much, but everything was already said by somenone else...^^
And i think the calcs specsmence fire blast vs. HP {Fire} are wrong, Salamence has Base 110 and not 100, and they would need over 500 Satk WITHOUT specs to do the same damage^^

 

[Superbro]

It does not need testing in OU. Its too good. You guys need to read some rules. This board is not for discussing the OU and Uber teirs.

In before closed.

 

[umbarsc]

It does not need testing in OU. Its too good. You guys need to read some rules. This board is not for discussing the OU and Uber teirs.

In before closed.

You're right, it's for debating the general D/P metagame...

Which includes ubers. >.>

But you're right, this thread still sucks and should and will be locked.

 

[Brawley]

Lee, i honestly dont see the reasoning behind your post, you post what moves Lati@s needs in order to counter pokemon that could possibly give them trouble, but they can't possibly have all of those moves on one set.

Theoretically i could do this for alot of OU pokemon. Gengar, Garchomp and Tyranitar are examples of such pokemon

Yes they are powerful pokemon, but your post makes them sound invincible in OU which they clearly are not.

I honestly think they should just be tested and we should stop looking at these things on paper.

Quoted for truth, also needs testing, some may think that it's a waste time, but remember how scared everyone was when he were speculating about Garchomp?

 

[blastoiselover100]

The reason that they are uber is that they are too good for OU but not that good in ubers. There should be a kind of BL for stuff that is too good for OU but too weak for ubers. Here is my reason it cannot be used in OU:
Latios(as) @Leftovers
Bold
252 Satk/252 Spd/4hp
~Ice Beam
~Thunderbolt
~Calm Mind
~Recover

 

[evolutia]

Quoted for truth, also needs testing, some may think that it's a waste time, but remember how scared everyone was when he were speculating about Garchomp?

I remember the Garchomp speculation, how it appeared to be unstoppable. Why was something like that tested? Why didn't we just go with "theorycraft" and ban it?

The reason that they are uber is that they are too good for OU but not that good in ubers. There should be a kind of BL for stuff that is too good for OU but too weak for ubers. Here is my reason it cannot be used in OU:
Latios(as) @Leftovers
Bold
252 Satk/252 Spd/4hp
~Ice Beam
~Thunderbolt
~Calm Mind
~Recover

In "theory" it appears to be to good for OU, but have you actually tested it? Just posting a set is not good enough for me. I don't understand why we just don't get this theory out of the way and have a Lati's tourney in order to test them?

What do you lose by testing them?

 

[Yashichi]

Latios @ Choice Specs
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power Fire
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Salamence @ Choice Specs
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump/Hidden Power Ground
- Dragon Pulse

Just to demonstrate the difference in power, we'll take the best case scenario for Salamence: Latios using HP Fire vs Salamence using its Fire move.

Timid Salamence - 299 SpAtk (448 with Specs), 328 Spd
Timid Latios - 359 SpAtk (538 with Specs), 350 Spd
Modest Salamence - 328 SpAtk (492 with Specs), 299 Spd
Modest Latios - 394 SpAtk (591 with Specs), 319 Spd

The problem with this post is that Salamence's base Special Attack is 110, rather than 100. This makes Timid Salamence's SpAtk 319 (478 with Specs), and Modest's 350 SpAtk (525 with Specs). This changes the following numbers:

(Level * .4 + 2) * Base Power * Special Attack

Hidden Power Fire Latios (Specs):
Timid - 1581720
Modest - 1737540

Flamethrower Salamence (Specs):
Timid - 1909215
Modest - 2094750

So as you can see, Salamence outdamages Latios with the same item and nature because of the 25 base power difference between Flamethrower and Hidden Power (Fire). Fire Blast outdamages it even further. Latios may have more Speed and Special Attack than Salamence, but the Choice Specs set has more trouble taking down Steel-types than Salamence, so it is not completely outclassed.

More will be edited in later when I have time.

 

[Trust]

Salamence won't be outclassed. Only the Specs one, which isn't very used right now, because Mixmence helps with Blissey and maybe Cresselia. however, Latios can't go Mixed in the same way. Lati@s better option is Calm Mind + Recover, walled by any resistant of their 2 attacks. Only with Magnezone, you have a big possibility of walling all of them, Thunder Wave'd them, and in a critical position, explode.

 

[Rubberbandman]

To me, calm mind latias is more of a threat than specs latios
CM
Psychic
HP[Fight]
Recover

Latias has enough speed to outrun T-tar by a mile, so it can ohko with HP Fighting. If you adjust your evs right you can have it survive a weavile pursuit and ohko with hp fighting, so the only counter left is other psychic types, mainly your own lati@s.

Either way around it, the latis can run safegaurd to protect from status moves, so you can throw that out the window, The only real thing I see countering the Latis is a nicely predicted CSGarchomp Outrage, a slowbro in a CM stall war with one (unless slowbro has Ice beam or Lati@s has Grass Knot.) And Spiritomb can counter the one I made.

The unpredictability is staggering.

 

[Bologo]

For my opinion about Lati@s in OU without Soul Dew, it's they are definitely counterable, but they do require a lot more prediction to counter than the other 600 base stat pokemon. I can think of a couple of counters right now.

Super-special defensive Registeel can counter Lati@s quite easily, as mentioned, because, I'm quite sure that they're not going to run Earthquake specifically for him, and a Specs Draco Meteor from Latios is a 4HKO at best when factoring in Leftovers. Thunderbolt which is really Latios's only non-resisted special attack is a 5HKO when factoring in Leftovers. Then Registeel can go ahead and Ice Punch away with a 3HKO on Latios while it just sits there and does nothing. Plus Registeel can Explode. There's a hard counter to the Latis right there.

Heh, if Jirachi runs super-special defensive as well, Specs Draco Meteor from that same Latios does 33.91% - 39.85% which is a 3HKO at best with Leftovers. Jirachi has an even stronger Ice Punch than Registeel, although it is still 3HKO. Shadow Ball from Jirachi can work perfectly fine as well, because although it does less than Ice Punch thanks to the Latis' superior special defense, with Serene Grace, you have a 40% chance of lowering their special defense, making that a possible 2HKO. They will also hate Thunder Wave. Jirachi can also do a SE U-Turn to switch to something and predict, while still slicing off 41.20% - 48.50% off of a 0/0 defense Latios.

Of course there's always Blissey as a counter, but that's been mentioned several times.

I'd say that Registeel is definitely the best counter since it takes damn near nothing from many of the attacks that the Latis can throw out, and can pack SE attacks to go for the kill.

The biggest problem with the Latis is that it forces a lot of pokemon to carry a lot more special defense than they'd like to, but they aren't invincible in any way.

 

[KO_King]

Lati@s are Ubers even without Soul Dew. They have a unique typing, an awesome ability, and a very useful movepool that makes them Ubers.

 

[Brawley]

Lati@s are Ubers even without Soul Dew. They have a unique typing, an awesome ability, and a very useful movepool that makes them Ubers.

?_?, The those exact three things can be said about Celebi and Jirachi...

 

[Derek(PUK)]

huge movepool, amazing typing so no. lets see wha it has.. psychic, dragon pulse, ice beam, thunderbolt, shadow ball, Dragon dance, recover, calm mind,dragon claw, EQ, shadow claw, grass knot the on ly thing it doesnt have is stone edge and fire blast!

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I support testing but Lee has said most of what I already wanted to say.

In the end, I feel that Lati_s will force even more teams to have Blissey (what, there are teams without Blissey? =p) if only because Specsmence's 4x Ice weak and SR weak suppresses its use (which doesn't affect Lati_s obviously). The only argument for allowing them in OU is the Dark weak, giving opponents an chance to maybe revenge kill them.

And don't forget, most people play with Species clause so Specsmence x2 isn't seen. Imagine facing both Lati_s twins (no 4x weak means it's not THAT much of a defensive liability if you support them well).

Oh, yeah. I believe you can get Soul Dew in PBR or XD. So it's not event exclusive.

 

[da gold sun]

Just a few damage calcs.

252 SAtk Modest Latios Draco Meteor with Specs vs 252 HP/0 SDef Metagross: 56.87% - 67.03%
252 SAtk Timid Latios Draco Meteor with Specs vs Same Metagross: 51.92% - 60.99%

Against standard CB Gross, that's a 2hko. However, with the SAtk drop, Latios cannot kill Metagross. However, the specs calc is a +1.5, so it's the same as having 1 Calm Mind. Latias does even less damage with Specs Draco Meteor.

Lets try the same two Latios on Registeel, who has max HP and SDef (Special Tank Analysis)

252 SAtk Modest Latios Draco Meteor (Specs) vs 252/252 Registeel: 28.30% - 33.24%

IMO that's pretty sweet. However, you're pumping every last bit of EV points and even his nature into this factor. So, IMO, if we let Lati@s into OU, Registeel will probably be the best counter (Latias doesn't dent him at all).

We could run several test tournaments for Lati@s like Shoddy is for Speed Deoxys. They're on Tournament 7, iirc.

Edit: Lucky 777 post

 

[Bologo]

huge movepool, amazing typing so no. lets see wha it has.. psychic, dragon pulse, ice beam, thunderbolt, shadow ball, Dragon dance, recover, calm mind,dragon claw, EQ, shadow claw, grass knot the on ly thing it doesnt have is stone edge and fire blast!

Uh huh, and it also only has 4 slots. Also, not having Stone Edge and Fire Blast are two huge things, because without Fire Blast, special sets get completely walled by things like Registeel. Physical sets on the Latis are just terrible, since Latios is a shitty Dragon Dancer.

What exactly is so amazing about this typing anyway? It gives it 5 incredibly common weaknesses.

Heracross, Yanmega and Scizor are everywhere for Bug. U-Turn is also quite common on things such as Jirachi and Staraptor.

Gengar, Dusknoir, and even Mismagius are very common for Ghost.

All the Dragons have dragon moves, and even things such as Sceptile, Heatran and Lucario carry Dragon Pulse.

A whole boatload of things have Pursuit and Crunch. Plus a lot of special attackers carry Dark Pulse as well since not much resists it. Sucker Punch is also carried on several things.

Ice is carried on so many special attackers it's not even funny. Then you have physical Ice attackers such as Mamoswine with their Ice Shard and Ice Punch and such.

I'll admit that the 6 resistances and 1 immunity are good, but Psychic and Grass attacks aren't seen a huge amount, so that makes it a little less useful.

 

[Jibaku]

I wouldn't call Registeel the best Lati@s counter yet. If you're running non Curse Registeel, it will be the one walled instead, because Lati@s can clearly Refresh/Safeguard at your statuses and CM x6, and then finally beating it down with Dragon Pulse.