Latias [QC 0/3]

[ryan]

looking for opinions from QC on other sets. should I include Choice set(s)? should Calm Mind be defensive or offensive or should I include both? bulky defog? dual screens from last gen seems kind of meh to me, but I can include it if QC wants.

Overview
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Fantastic Pokemon for an assload of reasons
Great Speed, bulk, and typing along with good Special Attack allow it to perform numerous roles for all kinds of teams
Excellent user of Defog
Fairy-type kinda sucks for it, but it can work in spite of them
One of its best sets from previous generations (defensive CM) is now pretty much entirely unviable because of Fairy-types

Offensive Defog
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name: Offensive Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Surf / Psyshock
ability: Levitate
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Moves
========
- Defog is the whole purpose of the set, removes hazards and screens
- Draco Meteor is strong STAB to slap around the opponent's team a bit
- Healing Wish helps make this set great; after hazard users have been removed and Latias is no longer needed, it can use Healing Wish to restore a teammate, likely a sweeper, back to full health
- Surf has better coverage in the last slot, most notably keeps it from being helpless against Heatran which walls a lot of great offensive Pokemon
- Psyshock for secondary STAB and to hit specially defensive Fairy-types

Set Details
========
- Life Orb is used to give Latias a power boost to compensate for its only-above-average Special Attack
- EVs and nature are standard
- Leftovers can be used, but being able to hit hard right off the bat is far more important on the offensive teams where Latias fits
- Despite how fantastic Healing Wish is for offensive teams, if longevity is more important to you, Roost can be used instead

Usage Tips
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- Defog as necessary, but it works best after the opponent's hazard user(s) is/are taken out
- Healing Wish should typically only be used after hazards have been removed, and Latias can be saved until late game after a sweeper has been greatly weakened
- Can come in on a variety of special attackers to pull of a Defog, especially Rotom-W which can't do much to it outside of Volt Switch into something more threatening

Team Options
========
- Because Latias itself is often doing the supporting, it doesn't really need much support back
- Talonflame (particularly its Choice Band set) was basically built for the support of this set—Latias can remove Stealth Rock for it and fully heal it late-game after it has taken a lot of recoil from its STABs
- Dragonite also loves the lack of Stealth Rock because of Multiscale and greatly benefits from Healing Wish support to get a second shot at sweeping and a restored Multiscale, pretty much letting it weaken its own checks to open up a sweep for itself later
- Genesect and Scizor are both great offensive Pokemon that share perfect defensive synergy with Latias

Other Options
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- CM Roost + two attacks
- Choice sets have potential but are major Pursuit bait, and Latios generally does them better
- Fully defensive set with Wish, fairly outclassed by other Wish users (Sylveon, Chansey, Blissey, etc)
- Dual screens + Healing Wish, somewhat outclassed by Latios which gets Memento but Healing Wish is still good (also screens are Defog-able which sucks for suicide Screeners)

Checks & Counters
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- Tyranitar and Scizor can take any hit and Pursuit or set up
- Bisharp can come in on any hit, and if it switches into Defog, it gets a +2 Attack boost thanks to Defiant
- Fast Taunters (Thundurus-I, Sableye) can prevent it from using Defog
- Walled by Ferrothorn; many Fairy-types; and Chansey, Blissey, and Empoleon which can spam Stealth Rock against it because of said walling
- Heatran totally walls Psyshock sets and can also spam Stealth Rock against it, keeping it from doing its job
- Plenty can revenge it, including faster Dragons (scarfchomp among other Scarf Dragons), Mamoswine, etc. but revenging it isn't really the point considering it just pivots and Defogs

 

[G Royal]

For a defog latias I would suggest 248hp as it gives it an extra sr switch in and a slash roost/recover with healing wish as it lets latias survive longer in tougher battles, especially with the LO recoil on top.

Also Heatran, despite losing ghost and dark resistances makes a perfect partner with latias

 

[ryan]

I already asked if we want a bulkier Defog set. If so, that's fine, but I'm not slashing Roost or Recover or using the 248 HP spread on an offensive set that is meant for offensive teams.

 

[G Royal]

Sorry I must of overlooked that when I read through, for some unknown reason I assumed when I was typing that you was running max hp not sp atk, despite reading otherwise, derp. Yet I would now suggest the filler should be 4 hp for the sr reason I mentioned before as it gives latias an odd amount of hp and with a base 130 sp def take those special hits a tiny bit better isn't really gonna be noticed, plus LO recoil isn't guaranteed to kill u

 

[Shurtugal]

I would replace HW for roost as Latios defog + memento is clearly superior if a team needs offensive defog support; Latias is utilized for her bulk so make sure to utilize it. I'd AC Hp fire somewhere 2 fuck non-scarf gene and m-Scizor

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Would Wish and/or Thunder Wave be viable options to help it perform as a team supporter? It was something I was considering but never got around to outright trying...also you may wanna list Bisharp in the checks and counters if you weren't planning to already as they get a free +2 boost switching in on Defog and are able to KO you with Sucker Punch. Not sure how well it takes an HP Fire, though but it isn't hard to switch in given it resists Draco Meteor and can take a Surf easily if it's healthy

edit: Contrary Malamar also switches in on Defog and gets a free Double Team out of it, figured that'd also be worth a mention

 

[Shurtugal]

Bisharp is a counter imo


Thunder wave works amazingly in my experiences, but I haven't tried wish so can't tell u that.

 

[ryan]

anything that's not related to the current set/other sets that I should add: I know, I'll get to it once I've got QC feedback on what other sets we want. I've had the most experience with offensive CM and offensive Defog, but I don't want to write up a bunch of stuff without knowing which sets QC wants covered.

I would replace HW for roost as Latios defog + memento is clearly superior if a team needs offensive defog support; Latias is utilized for her bulk so make sure to utilize it. I'd AC Hp fire somewhere 2 fuck non-scarf gene and m-Scizor

something tells me you've never used this set because it's way, way better than latios as an offensive defogger. the extra bulk is far more valuable for offensive teams than the extra firepower (it is a supporter after all, and it pivots in with decent frequency). and healing wish is far better than memento for a lot of offensive teams. fully restoring a mon after it's been pounding away at its own checks throughout the match is so huge. latios is definitely usable as an offensive defogger, but I like latias sooo much more in that role.

HP Fire is alright, and I'll mention it somewhere, but the ability to hit Heatran hard is way more valuable in my experiences.

Sorry I must of overlooked that when I read through, for some unknown reason I assumed when I was typing that you was running max hp not sp atk, despite reading otherwise, derp. Yet I would now suggest the filler should be 4 hp for the sr reason I mentioned before as it gives latias an odd amount of hp and with a base 130 sp def take those special hits a tiny bit better isn't really gonna be noticed, plus LO recoil isn't guaranteed to kill u

Latias naturally has 301 HP with 0 HP EVs, and it won't be switching into Stealth Rock 8 times without taking any other damage anyways.

 

[G Royal]

oh nvm then, I'm so used to putting uneven hp on defoggers now I had overlooked that :P

 

[Tesung]

Is calm mind two attacks not viable, with psyshock and dragon pulse? Obviously the mono attacker is dead, but I could see that set being viable (I haven't tested it though).

 

[ryan]

That's the one I've been talking to QC about. If Latias has any other viable set, that'd be it, but it doesn't seem like many of them have a lot of experience with it and I'm not a fan. I'm going to go ahead and finish this up with just the LO Defog set for now, and if any QC members decide in the meantime that CM should be added, I can do that.

Also fwiw, we shakily agreed that Surf>Psyshock for CM Latias considering that two of the most relevant Fairy-types (Mawile and Azumarill), beat you either way, and this way you can at least fuck with Heatran and kind of Tyranitar. Plus, Water/Dragon has better neutral coverage anyways.

Edit: this is QC ready

 

[Colonel M]

Probably can mention Dual Screen + Healing Wish Latias but that's about it.

Wish is kind of cool for bulkier sets but since there aren't any...

 

[ryan]

Probably can mention Dual Screen + Healing Wish Latias but that's about it.

Wish is kind of cool for bulkier sets but since there aren't any...

Yeah I mentioned Screens + Healing Wish in OO. I'll tack on Wish with the mention of a defensive set.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Not sure if I should post it here but since the eventual Mega Latias is a Dragon/Fairy, so... has the regular Latias changed typings as well, I wonder. That may change a bit about its potential viability and such, as not being pursuit weak and having a STAB to hit TTar may warrant an offensive set or something, and of course would make Psyshock a shit option on the main set.

I have my doubts but that would change a large chunk of this analysis.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Only the mega changes typing

 

[ryan]

Not sure if I should post it here but since the eventual Mega Latias is a Dragon/Fairy, so... has the regular Latias changed typings as well, I wonder. That may change a bit about its potential viability and such, as not being pursuit weak and having a STAB to hit TTar may warrant an offensive set or something, and of course would make Psyshock a shit option on the main set.

I have my doubts but that would change a large chunk of this analysis.

Yeah, as the above user noted, Latias itself is still Dragon/Psychic, confirmed by the GTS. Basically, if you make a trade request where you ask for Latias and go to 3ds.pokemon-gl.com, you can view your trade request, and it shows the typing of the Pokemon you put up and the one you asked for. This is how we know that Cottonee is also Grass/Fairy and that Celebi, Cresselia, Latias of course, and others are not.

As for the potential Mega Latias, if/when that's released, this will of course need to be revamped, but for now, it's purely speculation.

 

[alexwolf]

I think that a more defensive set should be added. Nothing extreme, here is what i am talking about:

Defensive Defog
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name: Defensive Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Roost
move 4: Psyshock / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Levitate
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Healing Wish + LO is great for offensive teams, but balanced teams prefer Roost + Lefties. Also, the two sets have a huge gap in longevity and power, so i think they should be separated. While 110 SpA is not much unboosted, you can still OHKO most slower Dragon-types with Draco Meteor, and most offensive Pokemon weak to Psyshock. Also, without LO, Psyshock > Surf, as Surf is pathetically weak. Actually, HP Fire is better, as it can actually OHKO/2HKO a lot of Steel-types, even without LO.

HP Fire should also get a mention on the offensive Defog set (set comments) to use on sun teams, where it has enough power to OHKO/2HKO any Steel-type not named Heatran.

 

[Ash Borer]

I am partial to hp fire on the offensive set. without it scizor, gene, escavalier walk all over you as well you can't defog on ferrothorn or even scratch aegislash. it almost nakes me prefer mence as a defogger but latias' speed and heal wish make it better. surf is good to slam the tran but psyshock does nothing for you as a defogger

 

[Jukain]

After a great run testing I think this set should be added:

Calm Mind + Reflect
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name: Calm Mind + Reflect
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Reflect
move 3: Roost
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
nature: Bold

I was looking for a way to change up my bulky Latias, as it wasn't really working as well for me as I had hoped. I couldn't run an offensive set on such a defensive team, so I opted to go a bulkier route. I ended up fitting in Mandibuzz, but things like Skarmory and w/e can work well as partners too. Anyways, this set. With Defense investment and Reflect, it is really difficult to break Latias from the physical side of things, allowing it to handle an array of physical threats. When I first thought of trying this spread, I somewhat expected to be disappointed, but since any bulky Latias lacks much immediate power, losing out on the Speed actually proved not to be that big of a deal. I added 16 Speed EVs after facing some Dragonites and getting fucked up -- they allow Latias to outrun Adamant Dragonite. Anyways, the setup opportunities granted by Reflect and immense physical bulk it gains with this set overall make me think it deserves a set. Oh, and Dragon Pulse isn't that bad as the sole STAB. A lot of people expect you to have Psyshock anyways until you reveal Reflect, so they're wary of switching in their Fairies in my experiences, and if you can get rid of whatever Fairy the opponent has, Latias can set up and terrorize the opposing team due to the ease it has in accumulating boosts.

I'm interested to see how CM Roar and CM two attacks Latias have survived the generation shift, so I'll test them out sometime in the near future. For now, we have this set.

 

[alexwolf]

Treecko opinions about the set i posted? Iirc i talked with a few QC members and they agreed that Latias needs two Defog sets, though i am not 100% sure so we need some more input.

 

[BurningMan]

Treecko opinions about the set i posted? Iirc i talked with a few QC members and they agreed that Latias needs two Defog sets, though i am not 100% sure so we need some more input.

The set you posted is basically offensive defog just with lefties over LO and roost over Healing Wish and both of these changes are already mentioned in the AC of offensive Defog. If there needs to be a defensive set for more defensive teams i would prefer a set like this:

Defensive Defog
########
name: Defensive Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Wish/Roost
move 3: Protect/Psyshock
move 4: Dragon Pulse
ability: Levitate
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

This set allows you to use Latias as a fast defensive Pivot that can offer both Wish and Defog support which seems useful for more defensive teams. I am not too sure about the EV spread, but i think that Latias high speed is one of its biggest selling points as a Defog user so i think that max speed is pretty mandatory, but i am not too sure where i should put the remaining EVs more HP obviously means bigger wishes and better bulk, but you can propably tweak the spread to get some specific KOs by putting some in SpA or maybe live some hits by putting some points in def. Not too sure about the attacking moves Draco Meteor sucks for more defensive sets since you often can't 2HKO neutral threats without max SpA so Dragon Pulse offers more consistent Power without forcing you to switch out every so often. Psyshock and HP Fire also don't exactly hit hard without SpA investment and won't OHKO anything you want to KO with them, but still hit their specific targets for enough damage to warrant a move slot if you are not using Wish/Protect.

 

[alexwolf]

Lefties + Roost makes for a huge difference in play though. It makes Latias able to check offensive threats for an extended period of time and is more fit for a balanced style of play, where with LO and Healing Wish, offensive playstyle are obviously preferred. I think that having one set about each plyastyle on such a good Pokemon is justified. Without any SpA you are unable to do immediate damage to all the offensive threats that you check and you are also unable to apply any pressure to SR users, which can just switch back in and set up SR again.

 

[ryan]

Leftovers Draco Meteor sounds horrible.
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 198-234 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO zZz

Defensive Defog just in general sounds bad to me. Latias is way too exploitable with Bisharp, Aegislash, and a bunch of other shit getting a free switch on ~offensive~ sets as it is. But at least you can do something to them in a pinch when you're running LO. idk I'd rather just run something else if I wanted a defensive Defogger.

After a bunch of time has passed though, I agree that Roost should be slashed after Healing Wish on the offensive set. I think that was brought up at some point, but idek anymore.

CM Reflect looks like trash to me.

 

[alexwolf]

You use Draco Meteor with caution, not just spamming it hoping to dent stuff. In 5th gen, Starmie used an offensive Rapid Spin with Leftovers even though it had less SpA and a weaker main STAB than Latias, and Rapid Spin is not nearly as effective as Defog is. Furthermore, it was liable to getting trapped by Pursuit, users, similarly as Latias is liable to Pokemon such as Bisharp, but this didn't prevent it from being effective. Just use a good Bisharp check, just like you always need with Latias. You use Draco Meteor to OHKO slower dragons, or a bit weakened offensive Pokemon, such as Thundurus after SR damage. You are still threatening to many offensive Pokemon this way, and this is how you force switches and get to use Defog.

Anyway, no point to argue about this, i know 100% that Lefties + Roost Latias deserves a main set, so at this point we will just have to see how many QC people think the same.

 

[Jukain]

Care to explain Treecko ?