Metagame LC UnderUsed / Tier Shift and Quickbans [See Post #152]

[Oma]

My thoughts on this meta right now is that there are some stupid broken mons that restrict teambuilding and turn people away from playing what could be a really fun meta, provided some mons get the boot. My thoughts on the broken mons:

Zigzagoon: The newest threat, and an extremely scary sweeper with an 80 bp priority move to wreck teams at +6. The most popular zigzagoon checks (Pawniard, Timburr, Gastly, Foongus, etc) are all far above the cutoff, and lc uu has plenty of memento users to help Ziggy set up. In addition, Ghost types are easily removed through Pursuit. Although not truly unbeatable, Zigzagoon is worth a suspect, if not a quickban.

Potentially Viable Zigzagoon Stoppers

-Drifloon: hit with a 17 spe will-o-wisp and end the sweep.
-Pumpkaboo-Small: Same thing only 16 spe
-Scarf Frillish: Avoid espeed and hit with Water Spout
-Koffing: has enough bulk to live espeed and can get a nice clear smog off
-Aron: Although rock smash is an option, the sturdy juice combo can let aron live it and retaliate with metal burst. If Zig is not running rock smash, then aron obv wins.
-Meowth: While low rolls may screw you over, Fake Out and Feint can revenge Ziggy from full.

Gothita: Already having warranted a LC UU suspect, this mon is still around and wreaking havoc. Easily removes checks to sweepers such as Ziggy with Shadow Tag, with a moderately strong STAB Psychic and excellent coverage options, along with trick. Houndour joins LC UU and can counter trap this monster, but Stunky and Houndour are kind of needed to keep Goth from killing all Zig/Shellder checks and other important mons as well.

Doduo: I'm not entirely sure it's broken nearly to the extent of these other mons, but it's easily the most powerful unboosted attacker in the tier. Since it hits so hard, it's pretty much guaranteed at least one kill per game, and its amazing speed makes it very hard to revenge. Aron works somewhat as swap-in, but if Doduo can run HP Fite for Pawn it can do it for Aron. Other than that, the return/bb/qa/k off set has no true switch-ins. I initially was not in support of suspecting Doduo, as it can't swap in on anything, is frail, and wears itself down. However, with Elekid's rise to LC OU, we lost our greatest Doduo check. I'm not sure what people will run now (voltorb? scarf elektrike?), but now offense has few answers to this beast.

Shell Smash: I'm not sure anyone would oppose just banning shell smash as a whole and then being done with it. Literally no one supported having Shellder stay when banning it was discussed. Shellder is even more broken now than it was before, as running Slowpoke or scarfkid is simply not an option thanks to the raises. But as soon as Shellder gets banned, Clamperl and Binacle will just fill its place as set-up sweepers. DST Clamp is hard to set up, but it hits for insane damage, and is harder to revenge without Fletchling's Acrobatics or Pawniard's Sucker Punch. (Though it is outsped by Choice Scarf users) Evio Clamp has more set-up, and still hits really hard. Binacle's typing allows it to set up on more mons than evioclamp, and good attacks in Stone Edge, Razor Shell, and a good amount of tough claws-boosted coverage such as Poison Jab and Shadow Claw. While Shellder is the best, if we get rid of them one by one people will just be tired of Shell Smash.

Fullheartedly agreeing with Rowan that a council be picked to quickban mons instead of suspecting them, as last time our "suspect" just died without banning Shellder and Gothita. Allowing time for each mon to be suspected in succession will just promote boredom within the small playerbase, and as Joltage pointed out having these Pokemon in the tier is discouraging players from trying to play LC UU.

 

[Disaster Area]

I only disagree with Doduo, since there's quite a variety of checks, and we have other stuff terrorising the metagame. I'd approve of a quickban of zigzagoon/shell smash/gothita, give some time for development, and see if doduo's broken.

Thanks for writing that though

 

[Joltage]

To clarify; I didn't mean to come off so strong. I just was trying to point out how the meta is really tough to break into because of the reasons I stated. I wasn't trying to bash anyone in charge of the meta or anything, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. My post was more about giving my opinions on what's wrong with, and how to improve the meta.

 

[Antar]

Joltage, back when I actually had time to battle, my strategy for getting LCUU matches was to open two separate PS tabs, use one to look for LCUU matches, then use the other to look for battles in a more popular tier, like OU. That way even if it takes half an hour to get an LCUU match, at least I'm not just waiting around.

 

[boo836]

Discussion on Shell Smash:

It outspeeds virtually everything. No Pokemon safely revenge kills users. Wooper is only viable means to beat users.

Goth:

Ban it. Seriously.

Zigzagoon:

No I'm not running shitty sets to beat it.

 

[Disaster Area]

for better or worse, I made a list of all of the mons you are allowed in LC UU..

Hide

Amaura, Anorith, Aron, Axew, Azurill, Bagon, Baltoy, Barboach, Beldum, Bellsprout, Bergmite, Bidoof, Binacle, Blitzle, Bonsly, Bronzor, Budew, Buizel, Bulbasaur, Buneary, Burmy, Cacnea, Caterpie, Charmander, Cherubi, Chespin, Chikorita, Chimchar, Chingling, Clamperl, Clauncher, Cleffa, Combee, Cranidos, Cubchoo, Cubone, Cyndaquil, Darumaka, Deerling, Deino, Doduo, Dratini, Drifloon, Drowzee, Ducklett, Duskull, Eevee, Ekans, Electrike, Elgyem, Espurr, Exeggcute, Feebas, Fennekin, Finneon, Flabebe, Frillish, Froakie, Geodude, Gible, Glameow, Goldeen, Golett, Goomy, Gothita, Grimer, Growlithe, Gulpin, Happiny, Helioptile, Hippopotas, Honedge, Hoothoot, Hoppip, Horsea, Houndour, Igglybuff, Inkay, Joltik, Kabuto, Karrablast, Klink, Koffing, Krabby, Kricketot, Larvitar, Ledyba, Lickitung, Lileep, Lillipup, Litleo, Litwick, Lotad, Machop, Magby, Magikarp, Makuhita, Mankey, Mantyke, Mareep, Meowth, Mime Jr., Minccino, Mudkip, Munna, Natu, Nidoran-F, Nidoran-M, Nincada, Noibat, Nosepass, Numel, Oddish, Oshawott, Panpour, Pansage, Pansear, Paras, Patrat, Petilil, Phanpy, Phantump, Pichu, Pidgey, Pidove, Pineco, Piplup, Poliwag, Poochyena, Psyduck, Purrloin, Ralts, Rattata, Remoraid, Rhyhorn, Riolu, Roggenrola, Rufflet, Sandile, Sandshrew, Scatterbug, Seedot, Seel, Sentret, Sewaddle, Shellder, Shellos, Shelmet, Shieldon, Shinx, Shroomish, Shuppet, Skiddo, Skitty, Skorupi, Skrelp, Slakoth, Slugma, Smoochum, Snorunt, Snover, Solosis, Spearow, Spheal, Spinarak, Spoink, Squirtle, Starly, Stunky, Sunkern, Swablu, Swinub, Taillow, Teddiursa, Tentacool, Tepig, Togepi, Torchic, Totodile, Trapinch, Treecko, Trubbish, Turtwig, Tympole, Tynamo, Tyrogue, Tyrunt, Vanillite, Venipede, Venonat, Voltorb, Wailmer, Weedle, Whismur, Wingull, Woobat, Wooper, Wurmple, Wynaut, Yamask, Zigzagoon, Zorua, Zubat

Also a minor update to the team I'd posted

Hide

Solosis @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 236 SpA / 68 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- Signal Beam

Inkay @ Berry Juice
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 172 Def / 68 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Superpower
- Psycho Cut
- Knock Off
- Trick Room

Cranidos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 5
EVs: 220 HP / 236 Atk / 36 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Superpower

Azurill @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 116 Def / 36 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Return
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Waterfall

Voltorb @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 40 HP / 36 Atk / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Rash Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Explosion

Frillish (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / null Spe
- Energy Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball

Changes:
Solosis Regenerator+Eviolite->Focus Sash+Magic Guard
Larvitar->Cranidos
Frillish -> EVs made more physically defensive to help with riolu
Electrode Foul Play->Explosion and EV spread adjustment

 

[fran17]

Voltorb @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 40 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Foul Play

This set's a decent Elekid replacement if you were running scarfkid.

I don't think that scarfing a 20 base speed mon is a good idea, a LO set might be better imo

Voltorb @ Life Orb
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 10 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt / Explosion / Sucker Punch (not really sure on this) / Magic Coat

 

[kingmidas]

The scarf is for shell smashers

 

[Star]

Zigzagoon: This thing is beyond broken in the metagame with its access to belly drum and extremespeed. Its able to OHKO almost the entire tier and its best checks are in LC OU. Its only viable stoppers are wisp loon and i guess scarf frillish which shows how stupidly broken it is. Worthy of a quick an.

Gothita: Check my other post. Definitely suspect.

Doduo: Check my other post. Suspect

Shell Smash: Shellder is honestly retarded with its sheer power and difficulty to revenge. Suspect

Houndour: LO set is insanely powerful and has the benefit of being able to trap gothita

 

[Disaster Area]

I think we need to 100% remove shellder and zigzagoon.
We need serious discussion on shell smash, clamperl, binacle, houndour, gothita, and doduo, but none should be quickbanned.
--
Also, with scarf electrode, run +Spe to outspeed Jolly Binacle, otherwise you can run +SpA

 

[tazz]

LC UU as a tier has a lot of potential imo, once we get past the things that hold it back from the fun tier it can be more people will start playing it and it will be fun. A couple things definitely need to be banned before that can happen

Shell Smash
Unfortunately for LC UU, most of the really good shell smash checks and counters are in LC OU, or really bad. for this reason crap like scarf electrode is run, just for this. When people are resorting to bad mons to counter something it's never good. If and when shell smash is banned, a lot of the pokemon that were formerly setup fodder can shine.
Zigzagoon
Zigzagoon is very clearly broken in LC UU, and needs to be banned ASAP. Put simply, it has very few checks and counters and is very unhealthy for the metagame
Gothita
it's trapping ability is insane, aiding both shell smashers and zig. even on its own it's probably broken, being able to trap so much of the meta
Doduo
so little can switch into it it's absurd. It may die quick but only after killing 2-3 mons.

once these 4 mons are at least suspected, LC UU can have a chance to be more balanced. I'm excited to use mons that wouldn't be normally used in LC OU, and have a bit more variety. hopefully it reaches this state eventually.

 

[boo836]

Shell Smash definitely needs to be banned lol. Virtually nothing walls its users, and it's almost impossible to revenge kill without using something dumb. The move alone puts way too much pressure on teams and almost always causes a loss when it is set up.

 

[Camden]

I think the scariest part of Shell smash is the fact that you can just have multiple Smashers on one team and as long as your team is built well enough around them you don't really have to worry. Just cover the obvious checks (Purrloin, Voltorb, strong priority) and you're golden.

 

[infamy]

I've legitimately run all three smashers on a team I built in five minutes and it's not even bad. Seriously, this move needs the banhammer.

 

[cityfolk]

Zigzagoon:
Insanely broken, has little to no viable checks left with stuff like Archen, Pawniard, and Gastly in LC OU. Needs a quickban imo.
Gothita:
This definitely is not as broken as ziggy is but probably deserves at least a suspect. This can easily trap some of the aforementioned Zigzagoon checks such as Scarf Frillish and Koffing & weaken a lot of bulkier mons to allow Zigzagoon to sweep easily. Suspect, not quickban
Shell Smash (mainly Shellder):
Also extremely broken. It's main checks in Slowpoke and Scarf Elekid (which is a shitty gimmick set that people are forced to run to stop Shell Smash) have moved up to LC OU, and neither were really that great (and Slowpoke was easily destroyed by the King's Rock set on Shellder). I'd say quickban.
Doduo:
Hits insanely hard and often kills 2 mons (or kills 1 and severely weakens another), but dies quickly to recoil. I'd say suspect.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Hi, banning everything in sight would be a great approach if we had a highly established council working for an important competitive tier, but that's not the case, and the fact is that there are a lot of dissimilarities between LC UU's and UU beta's positions. We should definitely enact a couple of quickbans and then suspect a few Pokemon to get the ball rolling, but I don't think it's a good idea to ban half of the metagame just yet.

I have stated many times in the past that I do not think that Doduo is broken. Of course it can 2HKO most things in the tier because it's a wall-breaker; it'd be a pretty mediocre wall-breaker if it couldn't actually break walls. Yes, it's quite fast, but the prominence of Choice Scarf users in the tier as well as the presence of bulky threats that Doduo cannot OHKO but who can easily OHKO Doduo in return, such as Sandshrew and Skrelp, render it quite easy to revenge-kill regardless. It isn't comparable at all to Murkrow because arguably the largest factor that resulted in Murkrow's ban was its versatility, allowing it to utilize a huge variety of sets to fit onto just about any team while almost completely shifting the actual strategy required to beat it, let alone its checks and counters; on top of this, Murkrow possessed priority that was actually capable of cleanly OHKOing offensive threats as opposed to merely picking off weakened ones. Doduo is fairly straight-forward; come in after a teammate has been taken down, KO an enemy, and get revenge-killed or force something else on the team to take the hit as Stealth Rock wears Doduo down. Doduo is even less comparable to Meditite because Meditite's largest boon over other wall-breakers was its ability to simultaneously break down the opposition and recover its health back; on the other hand, Doduo will often be 2HKOing itself after Stealth Rock just trying to use its most powerful attack.

I can better get behind a Gothita suspect, but the reasoning that "oh Goth is A- in LC OU, it must be totally broken in LC UU" is awful and illogical and really bugs me. Given Gothita's role as a trapper, its viability is completely dependent on the top threats of a given metagame. Gothita is is so good in LC OU because it is able to trap the most important type in the metagame in the Fighting-type, and it is able to effortlessly dismantle notable defensive cores; neither of these traits are even remotely relevant in LC UU when Riolu (with its priority +2 High Jump Kick that OHKOs Gothita after Stealth Rock if Gothita is going for the revenge-kill, or a clean 2HKO with Crunch if Gothita is attempting to switch in) is the only top-tier Fighing-type left now that Pancham is gone, and defensive archetypes are as horrid as they've ever been, even with the new additions, due to previously undoubtedly the best defensive Pokemon in Slowpoke leaving the tier. Even though LC UU doesn't have Pawniard to trap Gothita, Stunky and Houndour are both available and arguably more viable here than they are in LC OU due to the fewer number of checks. Of course it beats Zigzagoon checks, but that's more because Zigzagoon basically has no checks to begin with more than anything. (Frillish beats Gothita unless it is severely weakened, by the way.) With that being said, I would argue that Gothita is around as good in LC UU as it is in LC OU because the generally lower bulk means its teammates don't have to do quite as much work before Gothita is able to revenge-kill a specific enemy, so I absolutely understand why someone would consider Gothita broken in LC UU if they consider Gothita too much to handle for LC OU as well.

Frankly, the idea of Houndour being suspected in the next suspect round I find to be quite silly when there are more dangerous Pokemon available. Especially if it chooses to invest heavily in Attack, its Fire Blast doesn't even have the power to let Houndour break through Eviolite resistances, of which there are a large selection of viable choices available (admittedly not as many as there are in LC OU). Couple this with its inability to come in on just about anything except for a revenge-kill and its weakness to Stealth Rock, and you have a Pokemon that can be forced out more than once who cannot actually afford to be forced out frequently. Of course Houndour will be a great Pokemon, probably even better than it is in LC OU and worth suspecting in the coming months, but I don't think that it's nearly as good as most of the other Pokemon that have been listed as potential suspects. I suppose suspecting everything in one round is an option but it's probably not the best of ideas because we might start putting less effort into discussing our opinions of each individual suspect.

In regards to banning Shell Smash, a suspect would probably suffice because they're definitely quite difficult to deal with if they manage to set up and all your checks and revenge-killers are down, but I really don't think Clamperl and Binacle should be put on the same level as Shellder or Zigzagoon and put up for a quickban. They simply aren't nearly as good as Shellder in the average match; although they will be able to fill Shellder's niche as a Shell Smasher, they won't be able to do so nearly as well. Neither has Shellder's physical bulk, nor its access to priority, nor its ability to break through random sashes. (They don't have access to Rapid Spin, either, but I guess that's not all that relevant for a discussion about how well they sweep.) Eviolite Clamperl is honestly probably a more effective sweeper than Deepseatooth Clamperl; we can go on and on about how DST Clamperl OHKOs everything after set-up, but at the end of the day, it can do the exact same thing in LC OU, and nobody is seriously asking for a Clamperl ban there. DST Clamperl suffers the same flaws in LC UU as it does in LC OU, namely that setting up is virtually impossible without giving it so much support that manual sand Sandshrew would become a game-changing threat, and if by some miracle it does manage to set up, it's revenge-killed by priority, which is readily available in LC UU between Purrloin, Houndour, birds, Dratini, and a certain other Extremespeed user that will hopefully be banned soon.

Again, I'm certainly not disagreeing with the idea of quickbanning things that are clearly broken, like Shellder, and the rate at which we're getting rid of broken Pokemon could definitely be sped up. I don't mean to specifically call anybody out except for Starmaster; it just looks to me as if a few of us are completely disregarding caution here and clamouring to ban everything that seems remotely threatening to an unprepared team, which is probably going a bit too far.

 

[Camden]

After hearing from Mambo and Corporal Levi, I guess I'm willing to agree to either quickban Shellder or simply suspect Shell Smash. I still personally think Clamperl and Binacle are ridiculous, but they're definitely not as bad as Shellder.

I simply cannot agree with a Doduo ban just because of how frail it is combined with the damage it already deal to itself. I am aware of its great speed and power, but Choice Scarf Darumaka is also fast and strong and I can't see that being suspected right now. Any sort of priority is going to be able to handle it, and anything that resists its STABs or outspeeds it is also going to have an easy time. Plus, if hazards are up, it becomes even less useful.

Nobody actually wants Ziggy to stay so at this point we're just waiting for Yagura to finish putting the council together so we can officially get rid of it.

 

[Disaster Area]

some attempt at analyzing what's what

Suspect Threats:
Gothitelle - Trapping
Binacle, Clamperl, Shellder - Shell Smash
Zigzagoon - Belly Drum+Extreme Speed
Doduo - Wallbreaker
Houndour - Powerful Mixed Attacker

Other Options by types of team you could run them on, or utility moves they possess and are likely to run:
Manual Sun: Bellsprout, Bulbasaur, Charmander, Cherubi, Deerling, Exeggcute, Helioptile, (Houndour), Oddish, Phantump, Purrloin
Manual Rain: Buizel, Ducklett, Helioptile, Horsea, Kabuto, Purrloin
Weather-Setting Ability: Hippodown, Snover
Trick Room: Azurill, Cranidos, Elgyem, Frillish, Inkay, Solosis
Shell Smash: (Binacle), (Clamperl), (Shellder)
Stealth Rock: Aron, Bronzong, Cranidos, Geodude, Golett, Hippopotas, Kabuto, Lileep, Nosepass, Pineco, Piplup, Rhyhorn, Sandshrew, Shieldon, Swinub, Turtwig, Tyrunt
Spikes: Budew, Cacnea, Chespin, Pineco, Shelmet, Trubbish, Venipede
Toxic Spikes: Froakie, Koffing, Pineco, Skorupi, Skrelp, Tetacool, Trubbish, Venipede
Sticky Web: Sewaddle, Spinarak
Defog: Drifloon, Ducklett, Finneon, Piplup
Rapid Spin: Anorith, Kabuto, Pineco, Sandshrew, (Shellder), Tentacool
Knock Off: Anorith, Azurill, Bellsprout, (Doduo), Drifloon, Goldeen, Inkay, Karrablast, Krabby, Lickitung, Machop, Meowth, Mincinno, Panpour, Pansage, Pansear, Paras, Purrloin, Skorupi, Starly, Stunky, Zorua
U-Turn: Chimchar, Clauncher, Darumaka, Finneon, Froakie, Mankey, Meowth, Mincinno, Natu, Noibat, Purrloin, Rufflet, Starly, Taillow, Zorua
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy: Cherubi, Chikorita, Chingling, Deerling, Espurr, Flabebe, (Gothita), Lickitung, Petilil, Smoochum, Spoink
Wish: Chingling, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Flabebe, Lickitung, Natu, Smoochum
Miscellanious: Amaura, Axew, Buneary, Cubchoo, Cyndaquil, Deino, Elektrike, Fennekin, Growlithe, Honedge, Joltik, Klink, Litleo, Numel, Oshawott, Riolu, Sandile, Shellos, Shroomish, Skiddo, Snover, Torchic, Venonat, Voltorb, Wailmer, Woobat, Wooper, Wynaut, (Zigzagoon)
Stuff That looks Underwhelming Or Bad: Bagon, Baltoy, Bergmite, Blitzle, Bonsly, Cubone, Dratini, Duskull, Eevee, Ekans, Gible, Glameow, Goomy, Grimer, Gulpin, Happiny (maybe would be okay if it got Wish and/or Softboiled), Hoothoot, Hoppip, Igglybuff, Larvitar, Ledyba, Lillipup, Litwick, Lotad, Makuhita, Mantyke, Mareep, Mime Jr., Mudkip, Munna, Nidoran-F/M, Nincada, Patrat, Phanpy, Pidgey, Pidove, Poliwag, Poochyena, Psyduck, Rattata, Remoraid, Roggenrola, Seedot, Seel, Shinx, Shuppet, Skitty, Slugma, Snorunt, Spearow, Spheal, Squirtle, Swablu, Teddiursa, Tepig, Togepi, Totodile, Trapinch, Treecko, Tympole, Vanillite, Whismur, Wingull, Yamask, Zubat (does get defog tho lol)
Stuff That looks Useless: Burmy, Caterpie, Cleffa, Combee, Feebas, Kricketot, Magikarp, Pichu, Ralts, Scatterbug, Sentret, Slakoth, Sunkern, Tynamo, Tyrogue, Weedle, Wurmple

 

[Yagura]

So I decided on the remaining council members that you can see in the second post in this thread (there's still a free spot though). The Pokémon that I listed to hear the council's opinions about were Zigzagoon, Shell Smash, Gothita, and Doduo and the council will choose whether they should be quickbanned, suspected, or kept in LC UU without doing anything about them. I'll post the results when all the members post or at least once there is a majority if someone forgets to vote.

 

[Stratis]

We should definitely enact a couple of quickbans and then suspect a few Pokemon to get the ball rolling, but I don't think it's a good idea to ban half of the metagame just yet.

Even if you consider only the lc uu pokemon that are considered viable and are frequently used, it's not even close to "half the metagame". This seems a blatant exaggeration. It would be like banning minefoo, pawniard, and a couple A+ mons Totally half the metagame. LC would be removed as a meta cause there's not enough pokes left to fill a team (am I doing this right or too obvious?)

it just looks to me as if a few of us are completely disregarding caution here and clamouring to ban everything that seems remotely threatening to an unprepared team, which is probably going a bit too far.

As someone that played from the beginning of LC UU, this is entirely understandable. I'm more bothered by the hesitation and caution shown to do anything at all (post #56 was more of a desperate plea Yagura to do something; anything). I stopped playing shortly after I realized the meta consisted of 1-2 smashers, elekid/dodou/hippo/shrew/purrloin. That's just about all you would see from competitive teams and it is disgusting. Elekid was fine and few cared for gothita as I almost never saw it (I did put it on a team). My concern is that people are put off just as much as I am over the broken pokes and the centralization around them. I'm someone that really wanted to play lc uu from the very beginning, but now I want nothing to do with it until it sees the changes it has needed for months. Omanyte was the worst offender and the only ban. It took a lot of convincing to get Antar to ban it (although he did so quickly once he decided). Even without smash omanyte doesn't belong in lc uu where it could still decimate most teams under rain.

We want change we feel is needed so that we can enjoy lc uu and teambuilding for it. People feel forced to use the same broken mons if they want to compete and it takes all the fun out of it. It's definitely unpleasant being in constant worry of getting your whole team swept! I'm not in the least bit surprised with the overwhelming amount of disinterest that has developed with this tier. I'm glad Yagura took over, but I was hoping more decisive action was taken. It looks like there will finally be change depending on these council decisions and I honestly hope that it can accomplish what it needs to in order to bring back interest from the playbase (myself included). I'm sure people would be more caring for "caution" if the same issues with the meta that had been around for all these months showed some prospect of being addressed. They're likely afraid of lack of action. They probably don't even want to hear "shell smash is fine with anything that is not omanyte or shellder". I'm sure they'd never want to see something SS in this tier again. I'll agree that pearl and binacle are easier dealt with using sash. The only reliable sash counter is energy ball solosis which I used on many teams anyways as a trick room setter.

Using scarf elekid for smashers was silly and scarf/modest voltorb to replace it would be even sillier. It was almost common enough that trapinch was a strong team inclusion (but little need with hippo + shrew already). I tirelessly looked for a good grass type to scarf to hit shrellder and sandshrew, but, sadly, the only thing fast enough in litte cup is deerling and it isn't strong enough to take these threats out. Why can't snivy or pansage be one speed faster!? o_O WHY damn you.

if by some miracle it does manage to set up, it's revenge-killed by priority, which is readily available in LC UU between Purrloin, Houndour, birds, Dratini, and a certain other Extremespeed user that will hopefully be banned soon.

You seem to overestimate priority in lc uu. Purrloin was on teams only for it's priority t-wave/encore (knock off/u-turn just a bonus), houndour is obviously new but we already had stunky for this (for the few that bothered), dratini is considered by very few, and birds? (doduo quick attack?) priority isn't that amazing. I don't put it passed people to get a really good set up with screens or momento if they are actually concerned about the few, relatively weak priority, moves. If anything should be mentioned for priority it should be meowth whos priority LO fake out/feint combo can threaten any non-bulky sweeper (including zigzagoon). Putting heavy priority on a team is not an effective or attractive proposition for dealing with the threats that have centralized the meta as it would just create its own liabilities. If these could be counterteamed in such a way then this whole thing wouldn't be such a big issue. Meowth is definately worth including, however, and is helpful with dealing with frail scarfers and set up pokes.

Frankly, the idea of Houndour being suspected in the next suspect round I find to be quite silly when there are more dangerous Pokemon available

I agree, I doubt houndour will need to be suspected. Did anyone bring this up? I think only one person mentioned houndour but skimming posts I can't even find that mention. It's not what most players are concerned over atm and probably not needed for a suspect in the future.

Choice Scarf Darumaka is also fast and strong and I can't see that being suspected right now.

I'm a little surprized how no one brings up darumaka. It was just as huge an issue, if not more so, as doduo in the beginning of lc uu. I assume the stigma behind hustles 80% accuracy is what keeps people from taking it seriously. For those willing to risk the misses though this thing was and still is an absolute monster. This and cranidos could possibly be more cause for concern than houndour. Slowpoke didn't even like switching in on darumaka and that's gone. I remember that one of my first teams had a defensive growlithe and it actually worked pretty well for dealing with darumaka. Even rockslide damage was manageable and hustle rockslide is somewhat inaccurate anyways.

 

[Camden]

I'm a little surprized how no one brings up darumaka. It was just as huge an issue, if not more so, as doduo in the beginning of lc uu. I assume the stigma behind hustles 80% accuracy is what keeps people from taking it seriously. For those willing to risk the misses though this thing was and still is an absolute monster. This and cranidos could possibly be more cause for concern than houndour. Slowpoke didn't even like switching in on darumaka and that's gone. I remember that one of my first teams had a defensive growlithe and it actually worked pretty well for dealing with darumaka. Even rockslide damage was manageable and hustle rockslide is somewhat inaccurate anyways.

This is my main issue with it. I feel like its shitty accuracy is what holds it back from being really damn good. I stopped running him in the past just because my shitty luck would get in the way and I'd be missing crucial U-turns or Flare Blitzes...and don't even get me started on Rock Slide.

 

[Stratis]

What are your guys thoughts on hippopatas and torchic? If shellsmash goes torchpass will be even more viable and it's often difficult to deal with in regular LC. Hippopatas has been a big member of lc uu as both a hazard/stall poke but also as a means to set up sand for sandshrew. It was not uncommon to see teams with hippo, shrew, shell smasher(s), elekid, doduo, then perhaps something else like purrloin/darumaka/slowpoke/koffing/surskit/piplup

Edit: While hippo + shrew is strong I feel that it's not worth suspecting. However, torchpass is an actual cause for concern in lc uu imo.

 

[kingmidas]

A mention of suspects always reveals the hidden issues, especially in a tier with small playerbases, I suggest Yagura you and your council compile data to ensure you find the most worthy starting point, or you can be a koko which is the best option imo

 

[Disaster Area]

Even without smash omanyte doesn't belong in lc uu where it could still decimate most teams under rain.

I disagree with this, mostly since there's almost no other viable pokemon that would appreciate manual rain support, and the power boost is manageable; I would say after unbanning it if we ban smash then we should test it a bit rather than let it remain in BL

 

[Yagura]

Zigzagoon and Shell Smash got quick-banned by the council, and Gothita is being suspected. Omanyte is unbanned from LC UU for now too. Here are the council's votes:

Yagura

Zigzagoon: Quick-ban
Shell Smash: Quick-ban
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do not ban

Corporal Levi

Zigzagoon: Quick-ban
Shell Smash: Quick-ban
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do not ban

QuoteCS

Zigzagoon: Quick Ban
Shell Smash: Suspect
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do Not Ban

Stratis

Zigzagoon: Quick-ban
Shell Smash: Quick-ban
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Suspect

Omastar42

Zigzagoon: Quick-Ban
Shell Smash: Quick-Ban
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do Not Ban

Piexplode

Zigzagoon: Quick-ban
Shell Smash: Suspect
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do not ban

Starmaster

Zigzagoon: Quick-Ban
Shell Smash: Quick-Ban
Gothita: Suspect
Doduo: Do Not Ban

Tagging Antar so these changes occur on the server.