Lead Pokemon, Focus Sash, and YOU

Pokemon like Weaville, CSHeracross, and other high speed/high attack users seem like very good leads atm. But in my experience on WiFi, Focus Sash seems to undermine the effort to use the leads to get easy kills. Weaville is OHKO'd by Mence Stone Edge after expecting a kill with Ice Punch. Focus Sash needs to be considered, unlike Endure, because it is very accessible and doesn't take up a move slot.

My first team included a CSHeracross lead, but had to replaced after my first few battles where I encountered a Focus Sash PorygonZ with Psychic, a Focus Sash Lucario with Psychic, and a Focus Sash Weavile with Aerial Ace. I considered the fact that this might as well be coincidence, but I realized my Heracross lead was unfit to handle Focus Sash leads. And most fragile but potent sweepers are.

And this leads to the point of my thread, that with the addition of Focus Sash to the game, players have to tailor their lead pokemon to address it. Focus Sash is arguably most effective on the leading pokemon, with a low chance of SS and Stealth Rock and Spikes, the things that undermine Focus Sash. You could lose a pokemon due to this error, and in Smogon's upcoming Item Clause tournament the chances of Focus Sash being somewhere greatly increases.

I generally choose more bulky leads that can still keep their offensive power. Things like Gyarados, Metagross, and Tyranitar, who are all bulky and still pose a sweeping threat. Gyarados also had intimidate, Metagross is immune to the popular intimidate, and Tyranitar has Sandstorm, which already makes it harder for people depending on Focus Sash to use their pokes. The bulkier leads are probably what should be standard on most teams, be able to take a hit and stay a offensive threat as well.

This Focus Sash issue could even be worse with the Counter/Mirror Coat Deoxys-F @ Focus Sash, this could spell death to someone who mispredicts. With Kyogre/Groudon being able to change weather, Sandstorm is rarer than usual, which makes Focus Sash that much more potent. You could see Focus Sash outside of leading pokemon, in more unexpected places. Although the Uber environment probably will not fully develop until Competitor is well into a few releases, Focus Sash is a factor that should go into the "threat" checklist in the minds of the players during team building for ubers, defitnetaly.

With Tyranitar/Hippowdon being more rampant in OU, and Abomasnow a threat in UU, Focus Sash has less of a place in tiers below ubers. Although it may be less of a factor than it is in Ubers, it should be considered on lead pokemon especially, due to the absence of SR/Spikes. A Focus Sash user could also theoretically pull of its gambit, since I think SS damages after the turn it is unleashed(So the two pokes can do the move they do, your Focus Sash user surviving with Focus Sash, and also attacking. But dying to SS right after). If anyone can clarify this, please do.

Focus Sash will probably be a big factor in the Smogon WiFi tournament in July, so I think its safe to actually stress about this item.
 
I have had people cuss me out over the mic on Wi-Fi because I abuse this item. I put one on my Ambipom and Yanmega. I baton pass Nasty Plot(and Sub if I can) to Yanmega and use speed boost to sweep away.

The focus sashes are good for baton passing because it guarantees you will get the baton pass off(for the passer) and be able to at least use the effect once(for the recepient).

It's predictable, but it works. Though for the Wi-Fi tournament, I can't do this, so I will have to find a work around. But it works great in regular wi-fi.
 

Firestorm

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Yes, Focus Sash activates and saves you, you do the attack, and THEN you die. The same applies to being burned or poisoned by an attack.

Focus Sash is a great item for a lead, but the Salamence example probably isn't the greatest. If it's a Salamence with Flamethrower, chances are it has Specs =P
 
fake out is sounding like a better move now then huh? :)

thats what i'm planning to do...what good pokes learn it though?
 
fake out is sounding like a better move now then huh? :)

thats what i'm planning to do...what good pokes learn it though?
My thought exactly. I use an Ambipom with Fake Out as my lead. When I trained it, I didn't have Focus Sash in mind. But, once I thought I could take out an opponent Breloom with Aerial Ace and bypass Fake Out, not realizing it had a Focus Sash. I've never made that mistake again...

Weavile can also use Fake Out. Kangaskhan has the distinction of being the only Pokémon that can Fake Out Ghost-types. It gets STAB on it, too.
 
Thanks Firestorm, I changed that example to Stone Edge instead.

Alienjesus, Ambipom is a good user of Fake Out with STAB and Techinician. Theres Weaville, Infernape, Medicham, Hariyama, Kangaskhan, Purugly, and Persian. But I think Ambipom is hands down the best.
 
Well lets take a quick look at what really makes a good focus sash pokemon.

1) Fast Pokemon w/ Poorer Defenses - Anything fast with a focus sash is almost guarenteed 2 moves against something slower then it is, however this is negated by any pokemon that has a quick attack style move. It is for this reason some of the best Focus Sash pokemon I have used have a Quick Attack style move on them as well...

Examples: Weavile w/ Ice Shard; Pinsir w/Quick Attack

2) Slower pokemon w/ Quick Attack move - A stronger slower pokemon which might not survive an attack but should 2HKO if it could survive would pose a decent chance of taking down something it is up against. Of course this style pokemon probably only gets in one hit to your opponents 2, it is also for this reason having a pokemon like this with a quick attack style move works wonders.

Example: Muk w/ Shadow Sneak; Donphan w/ Ice Shard

3) Setup Pokemon - Pokemon that on their own can pose a threat after a boost, but may or may not do as well without a boost or are better setting up a teamate to pose a significant threat. These pokemon are also countered by the "quick attack" strategy usually if they are used to set up other pokemon set up and dont realize you carry a quick attack move.

Example: Ninjask w/ Swords Dance; Metagross w/ Agility

4) Fast Exploders or Destiny Bond Users - this is a seperate catagory from 1 IMO, simply because the strategy is different, for the fast pokemon they are doing as much damage as they can and pose a KO threat to many things. In this catagory are things that could KO some pokemon in 2 hits mostly and can explode or destiny bond on the next thing that comes in. Again this strategy is negated by a quick attack strategy. A Strategy where you are trying to take out 2 pokemon with one of yours...

Example: Electrode w/ Explosion; Froslass w/ Destiny Bond

5) Counter/Mirror Coat Users - This one is harder, but also a lower damage quick attack style move can hurt this strategy (so can fake out), as they are trying to use focus sash to allow them to Counter or Mirror Coat which would kill the opposing pokemon. Another Focus Sash pokemon also undermines this strategy. I don't quite know if I like this strategy, only in the fact that this way you are looking for a simple 1 for 1 trade, and if you are up against the wrong thing, you can be put at a bad disadvantage.

Example: Hitmonchan w/ Counter; Blastoise w/ Mirror Coat

There are more things that are useful with focus sash obviously, but these were a few i figured i would point out and also point out ways that they can be countered (most are in fact countered by fake out, or a quick attack style move on your pokemon).

To be completely fair about it, Focus Sash is really used in one of two ways. One is to set up your own pokemon for a potential sweep of an opponent, which there are plenty of ways to do that without using focus sash (And "arguably" not to say I would argue this, but I do know what some might be thinking... It is less creative and a complete cop-out which allows for the lack of battling skill, but still be able to use this strategy effectively) Or that those using focus sash, use it for the sake of not having ONE SINGLE POKEMON Sweep their entire team, which if you ask me, thats completely reasonable becasue its not fun battling one pokemon where you get in 0 hits and have no chance of winning where you dont even get a chance... And for the most part I think thats what the focus sash was designed for.

Design wise its an interesting item, it allows for the setup and prevention of sweeping both.
 
Well, Violent Storm, if you import a Gengar which knows counter from FR/LG, you can have Gengar use the counter AND destiny bond strategies with a focus sash... I use this, and It can easily OHKO 2 pokemon if used correctly.

Gengar@ Focus Sash
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPD
Hasty Nature
Counter
Destiny Bond
Hypnosis
Shadow Ball

You counter a physical attacker, surviving w/ 1 HP, almost guaranteeing a OHKO... On the next, either hypnosis and shadow ball away, or destiny bond while they kill you off... 2 easy OHKOs... works wonders as a lead...

The only other pokemon that can do this are Wynaut/Wobbufett and Cacnea/Cacturne, but Gengar has much higher speed and has hypnosis, so is a much better choice...
 
Qwilfish can employ destiny bond and explosion allowing you to cover both ghosts and non...

Qwilfish@Focus Sash
- Thunder Wave
- Destiny Bond
- Waterfall
- Explosion
 

Deck Knight

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There are two things I can think of off the top of my head.

1: Hippowdon/Abomasnow/Tyranitar leads.

Nothing messes up Focus Sash users like the mere existence of these. Even if they survive, Sandstorm/Hail takes them out.

2: Multi-hit leads.

The three best examples of this are Marowak, Scizor, and Ambipom. Smack something with either Bonemerang or a Technician(and/or STAB) boosted Double Hit, and watch the Sash users die a painful death. Scizor has the benefit of multiple resistances, Marowak is the most powerful, and Ambipom is the fastest.
 
Focus Sash leads are definitely pretty good; since it enables them to get at least ONE hit in (even inside of sandstream and hail; though they'll die right after).

As Neji said, Gengar works wonders with this item (I agree, since I'm actually using one in my battle tower team.. with Latios and Metagross).

Focus Sash also seems to be a necessity in Battle Tower, especially with the quick claw ohko attacks.

:-D
There's my input. (I personally love the item, it just sucks on NON starters with the advent of stealth rock, and sandstream teams).
 
I find focus sash leads great, but I think the only reason I say that is because that Gengar is awesome.


CoolTrainer20, could a Focus Sash gengar run something like HP Fighting to stop Tar in place of shadow ball?
ah

Thank you Synre ):

So I did some calcs with Focus Blast versus Tyranitar and it ohkos Tar 100% of the time.(I spose that was obvious)
I think Focus Sash Gar even though having his fun ruined by a Tar (I assumed it switched out) can use Hypnosis on its opening turn to disable at LEAST one pokemon. Or Focus Blast for some damage and hope Hypnosis hits.



Also how much SpDef does Tar have after SS?
 
2: Multi-hit leads.

The three best examples of this are Marowak, Scizor, and Ambipom. Smack something with either Bonemerang or a Technician(and/or STAB) boosted Double Hit, and watch the Sash users die a painful death. Scizor has the benefit of multiple resistances, Marowak is the most powerful, and Ambipom is the fastest.
Deck Knight, you should really test (or have someone else test) theories like this before posting them. Simple testing reveals that Focus Sash allows the holder to survive any number of hits from a single attack, even if the first hit should have KOed the holder.
 
In general I think Focus Sash almost gets used more than it should simply because Stealth Rock(while not nearly as popular as it should be) and Sandstream(which is probably more popular than it should be) absolutely wreck it.

What I like about this topic(at least, the original post in it) is that you immediately pointed out the best way to use the Sash in the title with the phrase lead pokemon, which seems to be getting lost somewhere.

I have really mixed feeling about the idea regardless. The main problem I have with the concept of the whole 'survive with one HP on the assured kill and then ohko back' thing is that you're more or less choosing to sacrifice your lead in order to get a kill. If that's the type of battle you're trying to get, that's fine, and when put on a team with a lot of Pokemon designed to work in that sort of tempo, perhaps with a few exploders thrown in, you can definitely be successful. I'm taking it to an extreme, but that will net you a lot of battles going 2-0, 1-0, 0-1, or 0-2, usually. Even if the aforementioned Focus Sash lead isn't really reflective of your team's overall strategy, you're still trading one for one, which is why I kind of have mixed feelings about it - there are a lot of battles where I will encourage that type of battle, but there are just as many battles where I prefer to try to keep as much as my team alive as long as possible, and in reducing my lead Pokemon's HP to one I've pretty much sealed it's death. It's just not something I like to do by design, i guess.

Of course, the above is assuming that the Focus Sash actually works too, since if you're facing a lead Tyranitar(which, to one of the later repliers, is probably not going to stay in on your Gengar, but if it did you can always consider using Focus Blast as an easier alternative to HP Fighting) you're already screwed, and if you choose not to sacrifice your lead immediately and want to switch(thus ruining the Focus Sash on Stealth Rock or an attack switching back in later), or if your foe is leading something you can't one or two hit KO, the item ends up being wasted. You can get pretty nice rewards from it, but I don't think I've been in a single battle that has had its outcome decided by Focus Sash, and more often than not I've seen it to nothing. In general I think it's a little too hit or miss to be as good as Leftovers or one of the Choice Items on most pokemon, but it certainly has its uses.
 

Deck Knight

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Deck Knight, you should really test (or have someone else test) theories like this before posting them. Simple testing reveals that Focus Sash allows the holder to survive any number of hits from a single attack, even if the first hit should have KOed the holder.
Well uh, I guess someone has to be the "error" part of Trial and Error...

Unfortunetely I don't really have anything with Double-Hit, nor is there any in-game enemy that uses Focus Sash.
 
This kind of strategy may also work with a Weavile... Maybe this?:

Weaville@ Focus Sash
Jolly Nature
Counter
Swords Dance
Pursuit
Ice Punch

Counter any physical attack (excluding Fake Out) to OHKO w/ 1 HP remaining... If they use a special attack instead, SD with guaranteed survival and sweep with high speed... If they switch, pursuit'em to death... May not work as well as the CounterBond Gengar, but can help... sometimes... Im probably still gonna go with Gar as the best user of the Focus Sash...

I suppose TTar could be the best counter for this, so for that reason, I may go with Focus Blast on Gar to replace Shadow Ball, for the hope of at least getting a decent hit in before he is defeated... Or in the case of a lead TTar, just use Counter... you will die, but so will he...
 
Oh poo... well, then I would replace Pursuit with Shadow Claw or Night Slash...
Either way... Gengar outclasses him in this whole CounterSash thing thanks to Destiny Bond...
 
Yes, but isnt Pursuit also an egg move? Who can pass both onto it? Im pretty sure ihcati is right...
 
No I didnt know that Counter was an egg move, so it is possible. Just use Smeargle, with IP, Pursuit, and Counter.
 
I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Focus Sash Ramparados. It doesn't take any damage from Tyranitar/Hippowdon's sandstream, so it can Rock Polish/Focus Sash the first turn without having to worry. Since its attack is already so high, the speed boost is all he needs to destroy anything that tried attacking him the first turn.

Of course, any lead with intimidate will cut his effectiveness down. But imo, Ramparados is one of the best users of Focus Sash out there. After one Rock Polish it is faster than anything not speed-boosted (bar Speed Deoxys and second-turn Ninjask, I think) and Tyranitar has to DD twice before it can outspeed it.

Basically, massive attack without needing a boost + faster than anything in OU after one turn + two turns guaranteed = Death. This thing is scary.
 
I use Focus Sash on a lead Heracross to great effect. If you come in on a Flying opponent (not Salamence) and predict an OHKO, you can use Reversal right back for an OHKO, which is beautiful. Then as long as the next opponent being brought in doesn't have pursuit, switch out to another Pokemon and come back for a *possible* sweep. If stealth rock comes into play, I use Rapid spin. ^_^

But yeah, I think Focus Sash on any leading Pokemon (especially ones with quadrouple weaknesses or just generally poor defenses) are stunningly effective.
 

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