Little Cup Metagame Development

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Seven Deadly Sins

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Yet another WIP.

Munchlax
Code:
Base stats:  Min-  Min  Max  Max+
HP :  135    --    30    33    --
Atk:  85     13    15    18   19
Def:  40     9     10    13   14
SpA:  40     9     10    13   14
SpD:  85     13    15    18   19
Spe:  5      6     7     10   11
Set 1: Curselax
Curse
Return
Pursuit
Earthquake/Brick Break/Pursuit/Zen Headbutt
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 236 HP/ 36 Def/ 236 SpD

Comments:

Good ol' Curselax rises again! After a curse, Munchlax has unmatched 33/18/18 defenses, letting it sponge attacks from both sides of the spectrum with ease, while hitting from an excellent 22 attack with a STAB Return. This Curselax gets played similarly to its counterpart in OU, Snorlax, but with a number of important changes. Because Munchlax doesn't get Crunch, it has to go with Pursuit to hit ghosts SE, which allows you to also move in and threaten special attackers such as Gastly and Abra if you want to go for the kill instead of the free Curse. Rest is a massive liability, and unlike Snorlax, Munch doesn't get Selfdestruct, so it instead goes for better type coverage. Earthquake beats Steels and Rocks. Brick Break may seem reasonable to do the same while hitting Bronzor, but a STAB NVE Return does just as much damage as a neutral Brick Break. Zen Headbutt hits SE things harder, but is rarely a good choice. You can replace Pursuit with any of the aforementioned attacks, but you lose the ability to come in and slaughter Gastly, Abra, and Mismagius.

Set 2: SubPunch
Substitute
Focus Punch
Earthquake/Return
Rock Slide/Return
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Relaxed/Sassy
EVs: 76 HP/156 Atk/196 Def/76 SpD

Comments:

A gimmicky set, but it could work. Munchlax can come in on a multitude of special attacks, especially fire-type and ice-type ones. It can also come in on fire/ice type physical attacks, so Relaxed is the preferred nature. Once it comes in, people generally switch to something that can actually deal damage to Munchlax, which will allow you to get a Sub up. EQ/Rock Slide give good coverage outside of Focus Punch- EQ hits Poisons, while Rock Slide hits Flying-types. You can also include Return in the place of either attack.

Set 3: Choicelax

- Return
- Pursuit
- Earthquake/Surf
- Zen Headbutt/Earthquake/Facade/Fire Blast
Item: Choice Band
Nature: Brave
EVs: 236 Attack/36 Defense/236 Sp. Defense

Comments

Choicelax is an absurdly powerful hitter right off the bat. Bring it into almost any special attacker, then throw out its incredibly dangerous Return. A STAB Return off of 29 Attack is devastating in Little Cup, crushing most everything that doesn't resist it. Alternately, bring it in on Gastly, Abra, or Misdreavus and Pursuit for the guaranteed kill. Earthquake covers Rhyhorn, Geodude, and Onix, three Pokemon that would normally cause trouble for Munchlax. Alternately, you can use Surf. If you do, move the 36 Defense EVs into Special Attack to ensure the KO. Munchlax's physical movepool is rather mediocre, so you can choose a filler attack. Zen Headbutt hits marginally harder than Return on things that are weak to it, but you won't be flinching with your 6 speed. Alternately, you can use Earthquake for the same reason. If you use Surf, you can also use Fire Blast to beat Bronzor, though it won't be doing much to you. Alternately, you can use Facade in order to eat status effects like Paralysis, as Munchlax isn't doing much with its base 5 speed.

EVs

Munchlax should seek to bolster its low Defense over other things. On the SubPunch set, Attack is important, since you'll only get a couple chances to attack with that set. If you're feeling rather adventurous, you can use Brave or Adamant on the SubPunch set to add a little extra power to your attacks.

Other Options

Given the fast pace of the Little Cup metagame, tossing Natural Gift in the place of Rest on the Curse set can allow it to surprise certain counters if you think that you won't be able to get a Rest in. Watmel Berry gives an 80 BP fire attack to surprise Bronzor, which walls you otherwise. Munchlax also has an interesting special moveset which could possibly be utilized to catch other counters off guard.

Opinion

Munchlax hits like a truck with STAB return, threatens the powerful sweepers of Abra and Gastly with Pursuit, and uses Curse to be a powerful threat to enemies of all types. Its unmatched 135 HP bolstered by 85 Special Defense and Curse combine to create an amazing threat, both defensively AND offensively. It also works as an amazing threat under Trick Room, where its unmatched 4 minimum speed makes ChoiceLax a scary proposition.

Counters

Bronzor can prove to wall Munchlax pretty hard in most cases, as Munchlax can't hit it SE, and its neutral attacks are mediocre at dealing with it. Gastly walls sets that use Brick Break to deal with Zor as well. Fighting Pokemon can also hit it pretty hard as long as it doesn't have a couple curses up yet, so anything that packs a strong Fighting move that can come in before Curse gets out of hand will make short work of it. It's also possible to stat up while it's Resting, outpacing its Curses.

Feel free to give me a hand with tuning this analysis if you can.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Choice Band with Max HP and Special Defense lets him sponge Special hits rather well. Run that, with Oran Berry being an alternate item.
 
So guys, I was making a Baby Park Moveset Guide for PBR, and I gave up halfway due to laziness. I was wondering if I want to turn it into a Little Cup Moveset Guide instead, with help from you guys. Sounds any good?

By the way, I was thinking of Elekid Movesets:

Setup Physical:

Elekid @ Focus Sash/Filler Item\
4 Whatever / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant
~Thunderpunch
~Ice Punch
~Meditate/Screech
~Fire Punch/Quick Attack/Cross Chop

And rain abuser, assuming your other Pokemon give it support:

Elekid @ Focus Sash
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild/Hasty
~Thunder
~Hidden Power [Water]
~Ice Punch
~Quick Attack/Cross Chop

Not to be an analysis or anything, just some rough thoughts.

And by the way, are complex EV Spreads even used? Because at Lv5, I'm guessing only 252/252 Spreads are the only way to go...
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Thanks for that, chris is me. I'll be adding a CB set shortly.

@Matty G: At low levels, specific EVs produce specific results. There's a chart on the first page that will show you how to use your EVs.
 
I was wondering about Curselax: Since Curse reduces Speed and Munchlax is likely to take a lot of damage from whatever hit it takes because this is Little Cup and you'll probably be using Curse on a switch anyways, it seems highly unlikely that he'll be able to get off any really important hits with Curse bonus. He might score a KO or two, but he probably could have done the same thing without the Curse boost. Additionally, Curselax set needs an item, probably an Oran Berry or something.
 
How about Rock Slide and Earthquake on Curselax? It gets rid of Drifloon just as well as Pursuit, too. And there's good coverage, as well.

Also, how about Scarf Riolu? It's got a lot of physical moves, like Blaze Kick, Crunch, the list goes on. I forgot, does it gets Close Combat?
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Great Sage said:
I just wanted to drop in and let people know that this project is under discussion. You probably shouldn't go too overboard with the analyses yet, as it is uncertain whether this project will be accepted.
Fine I will make it more clear in the OP that they may/may not ever be put on Smogon but even if they will never go on Smogon it would still be very helpful to be able to post them outside this thread.

You aren't barred from doing it, it's just that it won't go on the SCMS just yet. You guys can still have this thread for analyses. It's just that there's too much stuff to sort out in the standard metagame right now, so there's not enough time to be doing that, maybe in the future though. Still keep up the analyses though, because they're really good, but they're only going to be in this thread for the time being.
Thats ok for now but as I said in my PM (I am assuming that ether Jumpman16 or Great Sage posted it in inside scoop and you saw it) its really very hard to do so many analysis in one thread, there are some on page 1-2 that have had almost no comments, and need things fixing. This will improve once exams are over, but then we will have even more analysis submitted as well....

Perhaps the OP can be updated with more analyses for easy searching for people that actually play LC? That's the best way to go about all of this stuff being confined to this thread.
I am reluctant to set up links to incomplete/unfinished analysis, but I suppose many of the ones I have links to need improvements too....
yea ok will do that asap.

You guys could probably use this thread to make some kind of tiers or something as well for LC, so that people will know what's good and what's not.
mm.. I had though about it before but I suppose it could be very useful for newer players, however it would reduce experimentation (so many Pokemon no one has even used once so we don't know 100% if they are any use) anyway I may do a preliminary one sometime soon.

Another thing, can I submit my Little Cup speed tiers and Mr. Happy submit his guide to making Ev spread at Lv. 5 to C&C?


Other people please don't submit single sets, and please do use SCMS format, look at the sticky in Analysis Workshop for a guide to using it.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Rock Slide and Earthquake DO make good coverage on Munchlax, but Pursuit is important to allow you to come in and threaten Abra, Gastly, and Misdreavus. Furthermore, there's nothing that Rock Slide hits SE that resists Return, so Rock Slide is unnecessary. Bronzor is just about as unthreatening as it gets, so there's no need to cover for it, and since Rock and Steel are the only non-ghosts that resist Return, and Bronzor is the only one immune to Earthquake, there's no real need for anything other than Return/Pursuit/EQ.
 
Eric; you get the individual post links by clicking the post number at the very top right of each post :p Sorting out EVs on Treecko now.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
This has been rejected at least temporarily; we have issues in OU that we have to deal with before we get to talking about this.
 
Just wanted to mention the option of Protect / Last Resort Eevee: in OU I've had a good degree of success with it, so I can only imagine how beastly it would be in Little Cup.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
This has been rejected at least temporarily; we have issues in OU that we have to deal with before we get to talking about this.
Both proposals?
Are you sure we can't have somewhere, anywhere to post the analysis in separate threads? Them going on site is not as important.

If so fine........

Just wanted to mention the option of Protect / Last Resort Eevee: in OU I've had a good degree of success with it, so I can only imagine how beastly it would be in Little Cup.
Not sure how well it would work having never used a Last Resort Pokemon in any tier, can you test it a bit and if its good I will add it.
 
Play the game, most of the ~20-30 LC players go to DJD's server so if you want a match go there.
Can anyone help me by giving me the port of this server etc.. cuz I dun have it =(
 
Not sure how well it would work having never used a Last Resort Pokemon in any tier, can you test it a bit and if its good I will add it.
OK I will get to it if I can find people who play Little Cup.

Can anyone help me by giving me the port of this server etc.. cuz I dun have it =(
Ditto(as in "me too")

edit: Eevee (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 236 Atk/36 Def/236 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Protect
- Last Resort

22, 16, 12, 15, 9, 13 stats. (HP, Atk. Def, Spd, SpA, SpD)

2nd Edit: You could replace Protect with Substitute and use a Silk Scarf or Salac Berry(Salac is better with Flail, though).
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
That we are not debating this project at the moment is not to say that we will never accept it. It just means that we have more pressing matters to attend to right now.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I was really bored in a nice, long road trip today, so I've written 4 new analyses! I'll quad-post them so that each can be individually linked to. Here's Dratini.

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Safeguard / Substitute
item: Life Orb
evs: 68 HP / 244 Atk / 196 Spd
nature: Adamant

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>An obvious set for Dratini. Boost his Attack and Speed up to great heights and start Outraging. Waterfall along with Outrage is unresisted in Little Cup, but it really hurts very few Steels for Super-Effective damage. It's a shame that Dratini has no arms to Fire Punch with. Safeguard is actually a cool option as it blocks Outrage confusion. It's highly unlikely that Dratini will have time to set it up, though. Substitute is just a generally good move and Dratini really doesn't need anything else.</p>

[SET]
name: Specs Dratini
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Choice Specs
evs: 112 HP / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
nature: Modest

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>More powerful than Specs Bagon, Specs Dratini can dent anything that's not named Munchlax with the right move. Draco Meteor is an excellent STAB move, while Fire Blast hits most every Steel type for super-effective damage. Hidden Power Ground and Surf are both for Shieldon, but one might not want to lock oneself into a Ground move just to do a bit more damage. Dragon Pulse will probably never see use, but provides more power over more than 2 turns than Draco Meteor.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>Dragon is a good defensive typing so you can try and buff defenses a little more if you want. </p>

[OPINION]
<p>Dragon Dance is always an excellent move in Little Cup and Dratini can use it fairly well despite the lack of a Fire move. Choice Specs is always powerful too. Overall, Dratini is generally a powerful offensive threat with STAB Outrage and Draco Meteor.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Steel types not weak to Water are the best counter for the Dragon Dance set, Bronzor being the most common. Other high Defense Pokémon like Tangela can work too. The Specs set can be beaten by Munchlax, but otherwise you'll have to predict the move being used and switch in a resistance.</p>
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Here's number 2: Geodude. Again, multi-posting so that they can be linked to separately.

[SET]
name: Physical Tank
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge / Rock Slide
move 3: Fire Punch / Stealth Rock
move 4: Explosion
item: Oran Berry / Muscle Band
evs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def
nature: Impish

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>There's one reason to ever use Geodude over Rhyhorn: Explosion. It'll OHKO a huge portion of Little Cup and is a great way to go out with a bang. Earthquake and Stone Edge / Rock Slide serve as excellent dual STAB and let Geodude put most any Pokémon in pain. Fire Punch gets coverage on Bronzor, the most prominent Ground / Rock resist in Little Cup, while Stealth Rock provides some team support. Geodude serves ar a nice physical attacker in Little Cup with some key resistances to Normal, Rock, and Flying. Bonsly kind of outclasses this (50 / 95 / 45 is better than 40 / 100 / 30 defense-wise), but lacks a solid Fire move.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge / Rock Slide
move 3: Fire Punch
move 4: Explosion
item: Choice Band
evs: 196 HP / 196 Atk / 116 Def
nature: Adamant

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Choice Band Explosion is the main draw; off of 27 Attack it really hurts even things that resist it. Earthquake and Stone Edge still get STAB, Fire Punch still hurts Bronzong, so this set in a way operates much like the above but with more power.</p>

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Rock Slide / Stone Edge
move 4: Explosion
item: Life Orb / Muscle Band
evs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd
nature: Adamant

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Geodude has slightly lower Attack than Rhyhorn, but he has Explosion which works extremely well with Rock Polish. A simple strategy: Boost Geodude's Speed up to 22, beating Jolly Diglett, and kill things with 18 Attack (19 with Muscle Band, 23 with Life Orb). The main problem is trying to pull off a clean Rock Polish.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>Geodude gets Brick Break, Focus Punch, and Hammer Arm if you want a Fighting attack. Swords Dance is a cool move, but Geodude can't really use it effectively since he's so slow.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Since all of Geodude's base stats end in 0, Geodude gets optimal use of his EVs with these spreads. Defensive sets should max HP and Defense, and offensive sets should max Attack. Geodude's HP is low, so try and favor that.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>As you can probably tell by now, Geodude and Rhyhorn are very similar Pokémon. They have the same typing and similar stats, though Geodude's 40 / 100 / 30 Defenses are worse than Rhyhorn's 80 / 95 / 30 Defenses. Rhydon would always be the better choice if not for Explosion, which lets Geodude take something out almost all of the time. Geodude is a good choice in Little Cup as a resistance abuser or Rock Polisher.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Keep in mind that whenever you try to switch in a Geodude counter, you risk getting blown up. With that in mind, Bronzor is the best counter, as he resists everything but Fire Punch and can more easily be faster than Geodude thanks to 3 more base Speed. Tangela is second in command for countering Geodude, as his high all-around stats let him take even Fire Punch with relative ease and he has STAB Grass moves to always OHKO Geodude. Defensive Water types like Barbaroach can beat Geodude thanks to their STAB. Buizel is faster and even has Aqua Jet for the Rock Polish sets. </p>
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Third up is a certain Meowth.

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Hypnosis
move 3: Swift
move 4: Water Pulse
item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
ability: Technician
evs: 116 HP / 196 SAtk / 196 Spd
nature: Timid
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Meowth is a great sweeper thanks to Nasty Plot, Technician and excellent Speed. Hypnosis should buy Meowth time to Nasty Plot, bringing his Special Attack up to a respectable 26 (33 after Life Orb). Swift gets STAB and boosted to 90 Base Power with Technician, making it an ideal STAB move. Water Pulse gets a Technician boost, deals with Rhyhorn, and is unresisted along with Normal in Little Cup.</p>

[SET]
name: Revenge Killer
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: U-Turn
move 3: Bite
move 4: Hypnosis / Return
item: Life Orb
ability: Technician
evs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spd
nature: Jolly

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Technician Fake Out with STAB, even off of 14 Attack (18 after Life Orb), is going to put a good number of Pokémon in pain after a kill. Fake Out also serves as a priority move, which is mandatory in Little Cup. U-Turn lets Meowth flee while doing some damage, and Bite is to revenge kill Gastly with a Technician Dark move from a higher Speed. The flinch rate is also handy. Hypnosis is always excellent, while Return is just a solid STAB move.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>Last Resort on a Life Orb set could work, but Meowth's Attack isn't all that special and other things could really do that better. And it's a gimmick. Icy Wind gets boosted by Technician and is sufficiently annoying. Running 30 Def / 28 SAtk / 30 SDef / 30 Spd IVs gets you a Hidden Power Fighting of 59 Base Power.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>Meowth is so cool. Technician is always a nifty ability and Nasty Plot users are fairly hard to come by; combine both and Hypnosis with high Speed and you get pain. Meowth should be considered for any team thanks to his Fake Out, Hypnosis, and Nasty Plot talents.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Bronzor walls the shit out of Meowth and strikes back with a powerful Gyro Ball. Misdreavus can Calm Mind up with the Nasty Plot set, has high Special Defense to shrug off Water Pulses, and Hidden Power Fighting to own Meowth, though Misdreavus is slightly slower. The revenge killer is walled by Rhyhorn and Geodude pretty badly.</p>
 
dratini doesnt learn fire punch or earthquake and piloswine isnt allowed, its pre-evo swinub is.

Dratini's best counter is Shieldon barring Waterfall/Aqua Tail.
 
Don't you have to use Swinub, not Piloswine, in Little Cup? Swinub, by the way, doesn't get Ice Fang.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Oh, for some reason I thought Piloswine was the first evo X_X. My bad.

Dratini learns... neither Fire punch or Earthquake. How did I miss that again? Maybe I was looking at something else...

Shieldon is a terrible Pokémon though, so it doesn't really counter Dratini. And there's Water moves for him.
 
Dratini doesn't learn a lot of the moves in those movesets. Might want to recheck those. I'm pretty sure Shed Skin doesn't work on Confusion, as it's not a traditional status. Choice Specs set needs a nature.

Geodude looks alright to me. You might want to mention the other various options he has. On a Pokemon like Geodude, Stealth Rock seems like a complete waste of time: He's not fast enough to ensure he drops it before whatever happens to be out against KOs him, and he's not defensive enough in typing to assume that whatever's out won't have a move that kills him. He'd probably be better off predicting a switch or using Rock Polish.

For Meowth, Last Resort really isn't much of a consideration much for the Other Options section IMO, as he's got so many other moves that he doesn't need to think about it much. Additionally, he doesn't make it completely awesome. Shock Wave is still worse than Thunderbolt, since evasion is banned and all the Pokemon that could get evasion boosts are immune to electric attacks anyways. I think he can also pick up Choice items, also: It's at least worthy of mention in the Other Options section.

That's what I have to say on those analysis.
 
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