Little Cup Metagame Development

[sanjay120]

all the Pokemon that could get evasion boosts are immune to electric attacks anyways

Cacnea, Doduo, Skorupi, Tentacool. </nitpick>

 

[eric the espeon]

That we are not debating this project at the moment is not to say that we will never accept it. It just means that we have more pressing matters to attend to right now.

Ok, if you get a chance to work something out please keep us informed.

 

[yoshi!]

If shoddy is correct, then Buizel cannot learn Ice Fang. ¬_¬ I ended up using Slash on the CB set - use it as filler.

 

[hellmonkey]

GAH

I leave for a day and a half and two whole pages appear DX

Will comment on everything soon

 

[tgva8889]

Cacnea, Doduo, Skorupi, Tentacool. </nitpick>

Oh yeah, Acupressure...Fine, Thunderbolt is still better thank Shock Wave damage-wise and you have Swift for a no-miss move anyways if you really want to worry.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Another WIP that I'm thinking of...

Bagon

Stat  Base   Min-  Min  Max  Max+
HP     45     --   21    24   --
Atk    75     13   14    17   18
Def    60     11   12    15   16
SpA    40     9    10    13   14
SpD    30     8    9     12   13
Spe    50     10   11    14   15

Set 1: DDGon
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Fang
- Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor
Item: Focus Sash/Life Orb
Nature: Naughty/Naive
EVs: 236 Atk/36 SpA/196 Spe

Comments:
This set works a lot like its big brother, Salamence. After a Dragon Dance, you hit an excellent 25/27 Attack and 21/22 Speed, which is amazing in Little Cup. Focus Sash can help ensure you get a boost, while Life Orb works if you think you can force a switch. Hydro Pump can hit harder on some things, such as Geodude, Rhyhorn, and Onix, and Draco Meteor is obscenely powerful on its own. Nothing in LC resists the Dragon-Fire combination, so DD up and sweep away. Focus Sash is preferred, as ensures a boost, but clear the field beforehand.

Set 2: Choice
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Fang
- Hydro Pump
- Brick Break/Zen Headbutt/Rock Slide/Crunch
Item: Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Nature: Naughty/Naive
EVs: 236 Atk/36 SpA/196 Spe

Comments:
Choice Bagon is pretty scary, being able to hit right off the bat with either excellent Speed or Attack. Scarfed, Bagon sports 17/18 attack and 21/22 Speed, which isn't bad when you consider that Dragon hits a lot in the Little Cup metagame. Banded, Bagon has 25/27 attack and 14/15 speed, which can cripple anything that may be switching in to try and hamper a Dragon Dance. Once again, Dragon/Fire is unresisted. Hydro Pump once again is used to hit Geodude, Rhyhorn, and Onix. The last attack is filler, so take your pick. Brick Break is preferred, as it hits Munchlax.

Set 3: SpecsGon
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
Item: Choice Specs
Nature: Modest/Timid
EVs: 116 Def/196 SpA/196 Spe

Comments:
A rather Gimmick set, but it works for one reason: STAB Draco Meteor hitting off of 19/21 Special Attack can be devastating, especially considering that most of Bagon's counters are on the physical side. Once again, Fire Blast is for unresisted coverage. Hydro Pump hits harder on things that are weak to it, and Dragon Pulse is for reliable attacking without the stat drop. Alternately, you can move some EVs into Attack and use Brick Break to deal with Munchlax.

Other Options
These three sets pretty much cover all of Bagon's useful options. Dragon Rush is decent if you're willing to gamble for the one hard hit, but only on the CB set, as having a miss when you're all set up to sweep can be catastrophic. Flamethrower can be substituted on the Specs set if you're worried about missing.

Opinion
Bagon is one of the few DD users in the Little Cup metagame, and it's damn good at it. It has the highest attack of any Little Cup DD user, and 50 Base Speed is workable with a boost as well. The Specs set can also be a nasty surprise to unprepared opponents, and it's not too fragile on the physical side either.

Counters
Diglett can outspeed Bagon for the revenge kill if it uses a Focus Sash to set up, but it's hard-pressed to kill one from full HP. Additionally, weather starters like Hippopotas and Snover can prevent it from using its Focus Sash. Bagon also sports rather pathetic defense on the special side, so poking it gently there should shut it down. As for the Specs set, if it lacks Brick Break, Munchlax can deal with it handily.

 

[Lusantian]

Belly Drum is hard to pull off with slow speed and no priority moves, but it's also a possibility with Substitute if you're feeling gutsy, as Bagon can cover the whole metagame with two attacks.

I'm almost positive Bagon doesn't get Belly Drum, event though the Smogondex has it listed. Serebii doesn't have anything about it (although they're sometimes missing moves), and I remember hearing something about a BD Salamence hoax.

 

[hellmonkey]

No BD for Bagon.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

And another!

Lickitung

Stat  Base   Min-  Min  Max  Max+
HP     90     --   25    28   --
Atk    55     11   12    15   16
Def    75     13   14    17   18
SpA    60     11   12    15   16
SpD    75     13   14    17   18
Spe    30     8    9     12   13

Set 1: Swords Dance
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Fire Punch
- Hammer Arm/Power Whip
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
Nature: Brave
EVs: 116 HP/236 Atk/76 Def/76 SpD

Comments:
Lickitung is very hard to take down in the Little Cup metagame, with excellent defenses. This set exploits that. Swords Dance boosts its attack to a whopping 32, giving it the power to exact a ferocious beatdown on most anything. Lickitung should have no trouble getting in a Swords Dance, which will allow it to hit VERY hard against anything that doesn't resist Normal. Fire Punch hits Steels and Ghosts, Hammer Arm hits Rocks. Power Whip can do the same, but doesn't have the advantage of hitting Munchlax as well. This works REALLY well in a Trick Room team, where it's almost guaranteed to go first with its low speed.

Set 2: Special Attacker
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Wring Out
- Hammer Arm
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 36 HP/156 Def/196 SpA/76 SpD

Comments:
Lickitung can work as a bulky special attacker, too. STAB Wring Out is absurdly powerful on Lickitung, being a 180 Base Power move after STAB against a full HP opponent coming off of 16 Special Attack. BoltBeam is excellent as always, and Hammer Arm hits Munchlax. Alternately, you can use this set with Choice Specs. If you thought Wring Out was beefy from 16 SpA, 24 makes it even better. Lickitung's bulkiness also allows it to come in more times, making it an excellent hit-and-run Pokemon.

Set 3: Supporting Wall
- Thief/Knock Off
- Body Slam
- Toxic/Counter
- Protect
Item: None/Oran Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 116 HP/156 Def/236 SpD

Comments:
Lickitung's incredible walling is complemented by a decent supporting movepool. 27/17/17 Defenses are excellent, letting Lickitung use its good supportive moves a lot. Thief lets you take someone else's item (be careful of Choice Items), while Knock Off can disable an item-dependent item. Body Slam's power isn't terrible especially with STAB, providing Paralysis support. Toxic is good for wearing down enemies, while Counter will wipe out a physical opponent. Protect is mainly for scouting purposes or letting Toxic do its thing.

Other Options
Earthquake can be used as the filler move in a couple of sets, hitting both Rock and Steel, but ineffective against Bronzor and Gastly. Psych Up can copy an opponent's stat boosts, which may come in handy. SubPunching is possible as well, but it's easier just to hit off the bat with Lickitung. Counter can be a nasty surprise for anyone that wants to off Lickitung fast as well.

Opinion
Lickitung has a great movepool, excellent defensive stats, and can hit hard on either side. However, it's slow as hell, so it's rather vulnerable in the fast-paced Little Cup game. If you can get it set up, however, it'll be sure to do some major damage.

Counters
It's hard to directly counter a Pokemon such as Lickitung. Really, the only thing you can do is hit it as hard and fast as you can and try to take it out before it can do too much damage. Gastly can come in on a CB Return or Wring Out and deal some damage, but falls to pretty much anything else. Anything with a strong fighting move can put a major dent in it, but watch out for Counter.

 

[tgva8889]

Hidden Power Ground is a consideration on the Special set, as the only two Pokemon that resist BoltBeam in Little Cup are Magnemite and Chinchou. Surf is also a consideration, as nothing resists Normal/Water.

Might the Swords Dance set get a better set up by ignoring Attack all together and just maximizing defensive stats? I'm just wondering. Even powerful neutral hits don't deal too much damage to Lickitung.

Thief/Knock Off are alternate options for Lickitung in a support capacity. It also gets Curse, though I'm not sure if Curse is worth a set on Lickitung as much as it is on Munchlax.

That's all I have to say on Lickitung. Bagon looks fine to me in a game-theory sense.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Thanks for the input. As for the pokemon mentioned, Hammer Arm hits quite hard on Magnemite, and Wring Out absolutely destroys anything that doesn't resist it.

I'll probably include a Supporting Wall set for Lickitung soon, when I get a chance.

Also, I'm contemplating a couple Mons to do writeups for:

Tangela (Great Defense and Special Attack make it infinitely useful)
Drifloon (One of the few viable Baton Passers, and a reasonable sweeper that can Explode, ensuring at least one KO)
Teddiursa (Quick Feet + high Attack and STAB Facade and Swords Dance make it a scary sweeper)
Riolu (High Attack and Speed combined with a decent movepool)
Bronzor (The Great Wall of Little Cup)
Taillow (Guts + STAB Facade, good Speed, and U-Turn)

I'll let you guys decide which one I do next, and if there are any specific ones you'd like me to do in the meantime, I'd be glad to.

 

[eric the espeon]

Your analysis generally look pretty great, but please format them like this.
thanks.

 

[tea_and_blues]

Wouldn't a Fire Punch Lickitung necessarily be level five and up only - it's from the Emerald Move Tutor right? If so, that EV spread isn't possible with that move in LC. Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Eric: I don't see what's different between how I've been formatting them and how the guide does it.

tea_and_blues: Wouldn't the Box Trick work to get Lickitung's EVs up without leveling it up? I suppose it'd be hard to get the EVs required without leveling it up, but is it necessarily impossible? If so, I suppose I can modify the set to reflect that, but I'd rather wait until someone

Also, I still need suggestions on the next Mon to evaluate.

 

[Pneuma]

EDIT: Derp derp derp, I'm an idiot.

 

[eric the espeon]

Pokemon in LC must also evolve.

 

[tea_and_blues]

I don't think the 'box trick' has worked since GSC, or is that only at level 100? How does Lileep fare in LC?

 

[eric the espeon]

iirc it works, just not at Lv. 100.
and I have never used a Lileep, try it out.

 

[Emu]

Here's Ponyta, who is much stronger than I would have thought...

Ponyta

name: Sweeper
move1: Flare Blitz
move2: Return
move3: Will-o-wisp/Hypnosis
move4: Iron Tail
item: Focus Sash/Life Orb
nature: Jolly/Adamant
evs: 236 Atk/196 Spd/36 HP

[Set Comments]
Ponyta's base 90 speed and base 85 attack make it built to be a sweeper. Unfortunately, Ponyta has a limited movepool. Flare Blitz is the STAB, Return is the next strongest move in its arsenal. Will-o-wisp or Hypnosis is for incoming walls, and Iron Tail will hit rock-types hard. For the nature, Jolly will tie you with any max speed base 83-92's (Abra, Murkrow), and Adamant will give you the extra power. Jolly will probably be preferrable because of the tendency of the Little Cup metagame to be speed-centric.

name: Choice
move1: Flame Wheel
move2: Return
move3: Iron Tail
move4: Quick Attack
item: Choice Band/Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly/Adamant
evs: 236 Atk/196 Spd/36 HP

[Set Comments]
Again, Ponyta's small movepool hinders this set. Quick Attack is a third-gen-only move, meaning that it is impossible to obtain a level 5 Ponyta with Flare Blitz and Quick Attack. Ponyta is then stuck with Flame Wheel for its STAB, and because of its low base power, Jolly nature and Choice Band are recommended here. It will be outpaced by a modest-scarfed Abra, but it will also always survive that Abra's psychic. The same is true for a adamant-scarfed Murkrow's Drill Peck. It can then OHKO Abra back, but not necessarily OHKO Murkrow.

[Other Options]
Ponyta can access three status moves: Will-o-wisp, Hypnosis, and Toxic, so a double-status set is possible. Agility with max speed (neutral nature) would put you at 36 speed, which, from the speed tiers, is faster than everything but Unburden-Salac Drifloon and +2 positive-speed-natured Yanma. If you wanted Flare Blitz on the choice set, the last slot would have to be filled by Double Kick or a special attack.

Ponyta's base 65 special attack may make him a decent sunnybeamer. The set would be something like Sunny Day, Solarbeam, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, and Hypnosis/Will-o-wisp.

[Illegal Moves]
Quick Attack is a third-gen-only move, so it cannot be used with Flare Blitz. Otherwise, Smeargle's Sketch makes any combination of egg moves possible.

[EV's]
Basic sweeper build: always max out speed and an offensive stat (usually attack). The last point should go to HP. Ponyta does have solid defenses, but they aren't really worth an investment because of the weaknesses to Surf and Earthquake that come from being a fire-type.

[Opinion]
Movepool, movepool, movepool. Ponyta would benefit from a larger selection of attacks, but it has some good stats to work with. Base 90 speed makes it the fastest fire-type available (Magby can tie it with maxed EVs) and base 85 attack makes it the hardest-hitting fire type, physical or special. Couple that with base 50/55/65 defenses and you have yourself a horse that could prove to be a real threat in the Little Cup.

[Counters]
Bulky rock-types like Rhyhorn and Onix will be a problem for Ponyta; the only thing Ponyta can do to them is 2KO with a CB Iron Tail or burn them. Omanyte and Kabuto resist both fire and normal, so they counter Ponyta fairly easily. Other water types can switch in on the STAB, but will take damage from Return. Stealth Rock hinders Ponyta especially since it may be hurting itself with Flare Blitz. Ponyta is easy to revenge kill with a powerful priority move or a scarfed super-effective attack.

 

[eric the espeon]

totally revamped the OP. have a read of it.

Kabuto and Omanyte can counter Ponyta decently except for Hidden Power.
mm Rock types with good def will take it down (Like Geodude, Rhyhorn, Onix ect)
Water types (Like Chinchou, Staryu ect) can take the STAB move but don't like Return.
Other fire types and Flash Fire users will have a good chance.
Scarf'd Pokemon with a SE attack can revenge it.

Could a Specs set work?

Sash should be the main item on sweeper, with Life Orb second, Ponyta is not a great user of the berrys.

 

[hellmonkey]

Guys: I think that before going too fast with the analyses, we should first define the metagame completely...I feel the way we're developing this is too chaotic at the moment: we haven't still established the banlist completely, we don't even have any rough draft of the tiers, and stuff like Item Clause still haven't been decided on completely.

I suggest that we first discuss all the technical aspects of the metagame before continuing with the analyses. This can also help alleviate the waiting time for being authorized to discuss analyses on C&C. I'm writing a guide on move legality for LC.

EDIT: I just realized Hypnosis Bronzor is illegal at Level 5! It learns Hypnosis at Level 7 and cannot breed outside of Ditto...what a shame, there goes a staple move...

 

[Emu]

Thanks for the tips. I touched up Ponyta-- a specs set isn't really feasible because it only has Solarbeam, Hidden Power, and then fire attacks on the special side.

 

[Pneuma]

Alright, despite my idiocy, this is pretty interesting and I'll keep with it.
I wanted to start in the direction of Normal bruisers again and I landed on Aipom.

55/70/55/40/55/85
Great attacking stats, AMAZING movepool.

Attacking: Fake Out, U-turn, Return, Focus Punch, Pursuit.
Utility: Nasty Plot, Agility and Sub passing, Taunt, Twave, Counter.

Taunt or force out a wall. Pursuit at your disceretion OR buff and get ready to pass OR Twave/FocusPunch to hurt the switch-in. Counter Sash is a viable option, as is simple FakeOut and U-turn annoyance.

Bad defenses and lack of an ability will be a pain in the ass. He's solid and unpredictable if you use him offensively.

 

[sbc]

In the Dratini analysis, it's pretty obvious that Dratini can't learn focus punch...it has no arms.

 

[eric the espeon]

Guys: I think that before going too fast with the analyses, we should first define the metagame completely...I feel the way we're developing this is too chaotic at the moment: we haven't still established the banlist completely, we don't even have any rough draft of the tiers, and stuff like Item Clause still haven't been decided on completely.

The banlist is always going to be subject to change, like the Uber tier for OU. However I do agree that the analysis are chaotic, and often of lower quality than Smogon ones, we will never achieve the same level or excellence until we can post then in separate threads.
I think that we should shift the focus from analysis for the moment to writing a Threat List (which may develop into a tier list). And on finalising the rules.

I suggest that we first discuss all the technical aspects of the metagame before continuing with the analyses. This can also help alleviate the waiting time for being authorized to discuss analyses on C&C. I'm writing a guide on move legality for LC.

Right, I think that move/set legality is a important and complicated issue in Little Cup that needs discussion.

In the Dratini analysis, it's pretty obvious that Dratini can't learn focus punch...it has no arms.

Very true, however the person who posted it (Chris Is Me) Can't edit his posts as he "could be banned".
That analysis needs adopting.