Metagame LC UnderUsed / Tier Shift and Quickbans [See Post #152]

[The Avalanches]

Deerling @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sap Sipper
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Seed Bomb
- Jump Kick
- Wild Charge / Feint Attack

This is a Pokemon that has grown on me enormously in having used it a little more. I wanted initially to be able to revenge-kill Shell Smashers, but this thing can pick off so much more than just Clamperl and Shellder; any fast-but-frail Pokemon can be revenged easily by this guy, and after Pancham flicks away some Eviolites, Deerling can come in and proceed to clean up teams; it's a good late-game cleaner with just a little Knock Off and entry hazard support.

15 Attack doesn't look like a whole lot, and Sap Sipper won't be activating very often, but Deerling's attacks are quite powerful, which makes it stronger than it looks, plus 27 Speed is difficult to flag down, especially in a meta without Fletchling or Croagunk able to revenge kill it.

Deerling has probably been my favourite Pokemon so far in Little Cup UU, it's so fun and easy to use, plus surviving a +2 Ice Shard and taking down a Shellder is really cool.

 

[boo836]

Zorua's also an amaxing Pursuit trapper *_* .

 

[Yagura]

Something that I think is worth running and is the most anti-meta playstyle is Sticky Web Offense: LC UU has Surskit which is the most common and arguably best Sticky Web setter, it'll probably raise when raises and drops occur in February with web offense being so popular in LC (blaming Brazilian Army for making it popular), there is also Spinarak if you prefer power and priority Sucker Punch over speed.

There is also Elekid that fits really well in teams based around SW with its high speed (SW doesn't mean that you should only be running powerful slow mons) which outspeed all Shell Smashers (except Shellder) and Scarfers that are at -1 which is a way better option than the gimmicky Choice Scarf Elekid set. LC UU also has a bunch of powerful mons that really appreciate the SW support such as Skrelp, non-Shell Smash Clamperl, Pancham, and more..

 

[tazz]

SW seems like it could be good, but many offensive teams will have options against it. My personal favorite pokemon for this is stunky, which can defog the webs away quite easily. Additionally, because SW does not affect doduo, that can be hard to deal with.

 

[The Avalanches]

Spinners and Defoggers are at a premium in this meta, plus Surskit can take down Sandshrew with Hydro Pump. Sticky Web also has some users that are much more viable than in LC OU, Karrablast, Doduo, Deerling, Smoochum, Pancham, and Skrelp come to min immediately.

 

[Yagura]

Gothita and Shellder Suspect

​

Alright so I discussed with some LC UU players and we decided that both Gothita and Shellder are worth suspecting at the moment.

Why are they suspected?

Gothita and Shellder are considered one of the biggest threats in LC UU with the first being able to trap most Pokémon with its Shadow Tag ability that restricts them from switching out and be able to either revenge kill them using a Choice Scarf set or set up on them with Calm Mind while Shellder can boost up with Shell Smash kind of safely with its high Defense and w/ Eviolite and sweep easily through teams that aren't ready to face it with Skill Link Rock Blast/Icicle Spear, priority Ice Shard, or STAB Razor Shell. tl;dr Gothita and Shellder heavily strict teambuilding making people run mons such as Stunky and Scarf Elekid on every single team to be able to check them.

How will the suspecting go?

The suspect test will start today 20th December and end in 3rd January 2015, we can discuss if Gothita and Shellder are broken and are really worth getting banned to BL then after the suspect ends the council will vote if they should stay UU or go to BL. At the moment the council consists of me and Starmaster and there are five free spots so far so you can easily get in it if you make some solid posts that are based on solid arguments. Since the council will consist of 7 members each mon will need 4 votes to be banned from LC UU.

Discuss these questions during the suspect:

1) Is Gothita/ Shellder broken?
2) Is Gothita / Shellder making LC UU not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing LC UU?

 

[infamy]

Gothita and Shellder are suspected

​

Alright so I discussed with some LC UU players and we decided that both Gothita and Shellder are worth suspecting at the moment.

Why are they suspected?

Gothita and Shellder are considered one of the biggest threats in LC UU with the first being able to trap most Pokémon with its Shadow Tag ability that restricts them from switching out and be able to either revenge kill them using a Choice Scarf set or set up on them with Calm Mind while Shellder can boost up with Shell Smash kind of safely with its high Defense and w/ Eviolite and sweep easily through teams that aren't ready to face it with Skill Link Rock Blast/Icicle Spear, priority Ice Shard, or STAB Razor Shell. tl;dr Gothita and Shellder heavily strict teambuilding making people run mons such as Stunky and Scarf Elekid on every single team to be able to check them.

How will the suspecting go?

The suspect test will start today 20th December and end in 3rd January 2015, we can discuss if Gothita and Shellder are broken and are really worth getting banned to BL then after the suspect ends the council will vote if they should stay UU or go to BL. At the moment the council consists of me and Starmaster and there are five free spots so far so you can easily get in it if you make some solid posts that are based on solid arguments. Since the council will consist of 7 members each mon will need 4 votes to be banned from LC UU.

Discuss these questions during the suspect:

1) Is Gothita/ Shellder broken?
2) Is Gothita / Shellder making LC UU not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing LC UU?

HOLY SHIT YES THANK YOU BASED YAGURA

Alright, I figure I'll start off the discussion with my opinion on Shellder.
SHELLDER:
I think that Shellder is definitely broken. On every team, I have to make sure I have enough checks and counters to it. However, that's not the problem in and of itself- I have to make sure I have checks and counters to Fletchling in LC OU (can I call it that?). The problem here is that the checks and counters aren't very viable (Slowpoke, which doesn't fit well on pretty much any team archetype other than stall- which is singlehandedly annihilated by Shellder other than Slowpoke), and/or the sets they have to run to check Shellder have a significant impact on their viability (Scarf Elekid comes to mind). Shellder has excellent bulk which lets it set up on many threats in this meta, and it has absurd power in the form of Skill Link Rock Blast and Icicle Spear. Also, any of the Pokemon that outspeed Shellder like Scarf Elekid die pretty easily to a +2 Ice Shard (+2 236+ Atk Shellder Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 10-12 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12), it has to stay healthy and not take much of any damage through the battle).

But more than that, not much of anything can switch into a +2 Shellder, meaning that every time it sets up, the player has to sack a Pokemon to get their check in. The only hope they really have is to switch the check in during the same turn Shellder Shell Smashes. What this means is that Shellder puts huge pressure on the opposing team every time it comes in. It forces them to switch in their counter, meaning that Shellder can acquire excellent momentum through double switching to something that beats the check, because there is no real choice but to go into the check or get swept. This then opens up a chance for Shellder to sweep later on in the game through the weakening of the checks.

I feel like the current metagame is literally just a battle to see who can eliminate their opponent's Shellder checks first because of just how strong Shellder is. The threat of Shellder is so omnipotent that teams are forced to run two or three checks to Shellder just to counter it. As an example, on one of my more viable teams, I ran defensive HP Grass Finneon + Feint Stunky just to beat Shellder. That was literally the only solution to Shellder that fit on my team, and, to be completely honest, it's incredibly gimmicky. In my experience, when people have to turn to gimmicks just to check a specific threat- e.g. Own Tempo Pokemon during the SwagPlay meta- then chances are it's pretty broken.

 

[Enki]

Well, Gothita's ability is one of the most "broken" of all tiers that it was suspected in Ubers :O. Choice Scarf + Trick on a defensive pokemon allows it to can set up with Calm Mind and destroy entire teams in some scenarios. Because of its ability I think it is "broken".

Shellder, which is a really great pokemon thanks to its Defense stat that makes it, but with its ability make it a really big threat, almost perfect movepool, not a lot of stuff can resist to a +2 Icicle Spear or a Rock Blast to five hits thanks to the ability, and thanks to his bulk and defensive it can set up very easy. I think this one is broken too.

Both makes the LC UU not fun, if people use it, it is awsome, top ladder easy etc, but really not fun if you face Gothita or Shellder, in the worst of case, you'll face both. I think the suspect is a good choice from the council, and tbh ban both makes the tier better, with less threats to face.

 

[apt-get]

Well, Gothita's ability is one of the most "broken" of all tiers that it was suspected in Ubers :O. Choice Scarf + Trick on a defensive pokemon allows it to can set up with Calm Mind and destroy entire teams in some scenarios. Because of its ability I think it is "broken".

Shellder, which is a really great pokemon thanks to its Defense stat that makes it, but with its ability make it a really big threat, almost perfect movepool, not a lot of stuff can resist to a +2 Icicle Spear or a Rock Blast to five hits thanks to the ability, and thanks to his bulk and defensive it can set up very easy. I think this one is broken too.

Both makes the LC UU not fun, if people use it, it is awsome, top ladder easy etc, but really not fun if you face Gothita or Shellder, in the worst of case, you'll face both. I think the suspect is a good choice from the council, and tbh ban both makes the tier better, with less threats to face.

just wanted to say that an ability or move that's broken in upper tiers might not be in LC, so the shadow tag argument doesn't really hold up. eg. sand veil was considered to be broken in BW/2 but it stayed unbanned in LC because it was kind of shit

 

[Enki]

just wanted to say that an ability or move that's broken in upper tiers might not be in LC, so the shadow tag argument doesn't really hold up. eg. sand veil was considered to be broken in BW/2 but it stayed unbanned in LC because it was kind of shit

I totally understand what you're saying and I totally agree with you, but the reason why I used that argument is to state how good Shadow Tag is. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my post

 

[Oma]

Really glad to see this suspect happening, these two are making some fun LC UU mons completely unviable. Shellder sets up on nearly the whole LC UU metagame, and almost nothing can take its 5x hitting Icicle Spears or Rock Blasts. Pancham mentioned King's Rock Shellder, which has a slightly harder time setting up but allows it to possibly beat checks with a nearly 50% flinch rate. If you get lucky with that, not even Slowpoke could beat it. Sometimes your only hope of beating +2 Shellder is to send in a water type and pray that Rock Blast misses. I feel Gothita is extremely overcentralizing, as one of the first mons I added to my LC UU team was Stunky. Teambuilding is incredibly restricted by Goth, as Stunky (or Zorua, I guess) has to be on practically every team. Even with the perfect revenge killer, Gothita's Shadow Tag still guarantees it at least one kill. By time it gets Pursuited, it probably did its job. (such as removing a Shellder check.) Goth is stoppable but restricts teambuilding, and Shellder is nearly impossible to stop without using gimmicks or momentum breakers like Slowpoke. LC UU right now just seems to be made of those 2 mons and their checks, along with things that weaken their checks. TL;DR Shellder and Gothita are extremely powerful and overcentralizing, and make the meta less fun. Both deserve ban imo.

 

[cityfolk]

Shellder

I believe that Shellder is definitely broken. With basically no stops it can kill (almost) everything it's up against. With it's decent bulk (30 HP/100 Def/25 SpD) it can set up on most mons with or without Eviolite. It has the Skill Link ability which allows multi-hit moves, such as Rock Blast and Icicle Spear, hit 5 times every time, OHKOing most mons. It either holds an Eviolite or the ever-so-annoying King's Rock which allows it a ~41% flinch chance (0.9^5 = 59% chance to not flinch) every turn with Skill Link. It's extremely hard to stop and is way too centralizing in this metagame.

With it's base 65 attack (reaching 16 with Jolly and 17 with Adamant), it gets to 32/34 after a Shell Smash boost. Nothing besides Slowpoke can switch in and live a hit from Shellder. Even Lickitung, with 90 HP/75 Def, can't switch into it -
+2 236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 196 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 15-20 (53.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In order to beat Shellder, people are running gimmicky sets such as Choice Scarf Elekid. I think this kinda resembles how (in LC OU) everyone was forced to run an ice move when Gligar was around, or people running Skrelp (before it's ORAS buffs) for Swirlix, or running Exeggcute for Meditite. It's way too over-centralizing and overpowered.

Shellder for Ban.

 

[The Avalanches]

Shellder's existence makes me cry. Everyone above me has made all of the good points there is to make, it gets two 125 Base Power moves, it's difficult to prevent from setting up and almost impossible to stop if it does. When a Pokemon forces obscure counters, it's generally considered unhealthy for a metagame. Shellder forces obscure checks, there really isn't a damn thing that can switch in on it in this meta, anything that can is in Standard LC. This pokemon requires more forethought and preparation when making a team than I would consider healthy, and I do believe a ban is in order.

I've really not played against Gothita much in this meta. But it does seem like a comparatively stronger, bulkier, and faster version of itself in Standard LC, a meta where it is causing trouble already. When I play with and against it a little more, I'll form an opinion.

 

[Pancham]

A fun set I came up with amidst all the Shellder spam is Shell Smash Binacle holding Berry Juice.

Binacle @ Berry Juice
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 20 HP / 180 Atk / 60 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Cross Chop
- Shadow Claw / Stone Edge / Stealth Rock / Poison Jab / whatever else Binacle has.

Basically, this set is never killed by Shellder's Rock Blast, even after SR, allowing Binacle to come in, set up Shell Smash, and then OHKO Shellder with Cross Chop (can only be done after residual damage, but seeing as it probably will have had residual damage a sit had to set-up....), or Stone Edge, if you wish to be able to kill Shellder regardless of having residual damage or not. It hits 14 Spe, which is faster than standard Shellder, as nobody runs Jolly. Shadow Claw is the preferred move for the last slot tho cuz Pumpkaboo is a thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, most of everything I'd have wished to say regarding Shellder has been said, and I do believe it, and every other Shell Smasher, should be banned. (Can someone remind me why Shell Smash to its entirety isn't being suspect tested?) Shellder has great bulk, a great ability, an incredible movepool of Rock Blast + Icicle Spear + priroity, an item to make its moves flinch almost 50% of the time, and a good Spe and Atk stat. Basically, Shellder has everything it needs to cause havoc in LC UU.

Now, onto Gothita. While it is true that Gothita has a field day with msot of the top threats of the tier, it is also true that the majority of these threats have to have received residual damage in order for Gothita to its job efficiently. As, if certain bulky mons, like Pancham and Skrlep, that are weak to its moves aren't weakened enoguh, they have a chance to live Gothita's hits and KO it back with ither STAB or SE attacks. That being said, I do believe Gothita should be removed for the simple fact that Shadow Tag is inherently broken, and if you couple that with a mon like Gothita which has decent power and decent Spe, hose decent stats become quite terrifying, especially in LC UU. Gothita forces you to run either Stunky or Zorua on every team, as these are the only good Pursuiters, just to make it so Gothita can only kill one member of your team per battle. Gothita is still guaranteed a kill, which is pretty important to note, unless you have based prediction allowing you to switch Stunky/Zorua in as they switch Gothita in, but that's unlikely to occur.

Basically, ban both of these afflictions ASAP and save LC UU from its suffering, as we still have ways to go to make LC UU the meta we want it to be.

 

[boo836]

Shellder is capable of killing pretty much anything. Stuff like BJ aren't reliable as checks, since even after forcing a switch, Shellder is easily capable of ruining that strategy. As Adam pointed out, King's Rock breaks any BJ check down half of the time. In terms of revenge killing, you are usually relying on shitmons like scarfkid. however, i think it's shell smash as a whole that breaks this metagame, as other mons like Binacle and Clamperl are still crushing everything in sight. Only difference is that Clamperl is easier to revenge, and binacle kills slightly less. With shellder gone, we will still have a metagame dominated by those hiding in shellder's shadow. ban it.

Gothita's a funny case because it's not that common right now. this is mostly due to the prevalence of memento users, which are indispensable to smashspam. however, with shellsmash/ shellder gone, this mon will necessitate the use of stunky/ zorua to at the very least grab a 141. However, Gothita users will almost always still have the privilege of screwing something their opponent needed, and grabbing momentum when its replacement forces zorua or whatever out. it's definitely broken, so i'm siding with a ban.

 

[Yagura]

So some drops and raises are going to be happening (based it on the 1630 usage stats):

Stuff that are LC OU now:

• Shellder from LC UU to LC OU
• Meowth from LC UU to LC OU
• Skrelp from LC UU to LC OU
• Pumpkaboo-Super from LC UU to LC OU
• Elekid from LC UU to LC OU
• Pancham from LC UU to LC OU
• Surskit from LC UU to LC OU

Stuff that dropped to LC UU:

• Bellsprout from LC OU to LC UU
• Houndour from LC OU to LC UU
• Zigzagoon from LC OU to LC UU
• Trubbish from LC OU to LC UU

Feel free to discuss these changes and how they'll affect LC UU, also Shellder isn't being suspected anymore as it's LC OU now but Gothita still is.

The ladder will reflect these changes sometime soon.

 

[The Avalanches]

Wow, that's a hefty shift, I didn't expect Surskit it Elekid to rise. Not did I expect Shellder to rise, but that's nothing but a gift.

Zigzagoon looks pretty scary, is there anything that walls it? All the relevant Steel-types are in standard, and it can easily run Seed Bomb for stuff like Frillish.

And it seems like a tease for Bellsprout and Houndour to drop, while Vulpix is still in standard lol.

 

[absdaddy]

way to invite me to the metagame!
spikes + zig = gg, if it works great in LC OU with its checks around, i can imagine what is going to happen here

 

[infamy]

so this metagame has literally just fucking gone from a shitty metagame dominated by a set up sweeper to a shitty metagame dominated by... a fucking set up sweeper

k

 

[Stratis]

Was there a mistake? Based off of 1630 stats lileep and cranidos are under the 3.41% threshold.

| 41 | Lileep | 3.29868% | 3825 | 3.464% | 3287 | 3.697% |
| 40 | Cranidos | 3.31163% | 6266 | 5.674% | 4706 | 5.293% |

Not that I would want it too but shellder would also stay at 3.2567% usage

| 42 | Shellder | 3.25672% | 4503 | 4.078% | 3607 | 4.057% |

Did you decide to lower the % usage cut off and not say anything about it? I'm confused :(

 

[Camden]

The Surskit rise doesn't surprise me at all. LC OU has been seeing a lot more Web teams, so it's no surprise that the premiere setter goes up. That's not to say that Webs can't be done in UU, as we still have Spinarak and Sewaddle, although this does mean we're stuck with using slow Webs.

On another note, we have to deal with Ziggy now...I can see this guy being very useful this meta:

Koffing @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Clear Smog
- Memento
- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast


With this set, Koffing can act equally as Ziggy Support while fending off your opponent's Ziggy. There's still a 6% chance for it to get OHKO'd after rocks, but if you put 116 EVs in HP, it's a guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[Yagura]

Was there a mistake? Based off of 1630 stats lileep and cranidos are under the 3.41% threshold.

| 41 | Lileep | 3.29868% | 3825 | 3.464% | 3287 | 3.697% |
| 40 | Cranidos | 3.31163% | 6266 | 5.674% | 4706 | 5.293% |

Not that I would want it too but shellder would also stay at 3.2567% usage

| 42 | Shellder | 3.25672% | 4503 | 4.078% | 3607 | 4.057% |

Did you decide to lower the % usage cut off and not say anything about it? I'm confused :(

Thanks a bunch man, I thought the cutoff was 3.25 sorry. And with that Cranidos, Lileep, and Shellder and LC UU.

 

[kingmidas]

Screw goth, crandios is the new mega threat, also lileep for clamperl stopper

 

[Stratis]

Cranidos and lileep are definately interesting additions. Cranidos could be even be a bit too strong.

Lileep can stop eviolite clamperal if it doesn't mind taking a ton of ice beam damage.

+2 248+ SpA Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 18-22 (69.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 18-24 (90 - 120%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

If we are talking deepseatooth than lileep better run for it's life.

+2 248+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 34-42 (130.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nothing really wants to deal with +2 deepseatooth clampearl except priority and scarfers

 

[Stratis]

I'd be more worried about zigzagoon than cranidos though. We keep talking about counters and checks like 14 speed frillish/pumpkaboo (not super) binacle, and sash solosis but it's as annoying to deal with as shellder.