March of the Penguins: Redux [Suspect/OU Team Retirement]

[Ciaran]

Ciaran with another RMT here. This is actually a re-make of a much older team (pre-HG/SS, kind of early to mid Platinum Meta) that can be viewed here. It was one of my most successful teams of all time, and this remake is arguably my absolute most successful team of all time, only losing once in it's run of 30-40 games to very obvious hax (3 turns of full paralysis and a Magma Storm miss from Tran against a Spiker was one of the least haxy things in the game) and I'm retiring it as of now. I may still use it for fun matches, but I'm letting it leave on top for tourney/ladder play (for the record, I don't enter tourneys on Smogon and rarely ladder aggressively on a single alt so if anyone is wondering how this team never showed up despite an undefeated record, that's why, most of the games were personal/tourney matches against other members of CAL and other sites I'm a part of, but the players on these sites are of quality. Delta_2777, stone_cold22, Mechazawa, panamaxis, Kir, El Blecko, legendary_07. I didn't play all these guys with it, I don't think , but just to demonstrate that I wasn't playing people who don't know what their doing).

The major changes that have happened in the meta since the last game were fairly extreme. For one, I discovered Bait Tran (HeaTrap), Latias and Mence were banned, and all of the HG/SS tutors and moves came into play, including Pain Split Gar and Rotom, Extremespeed Dragonite and Heal Bell Vaporeon primarily. So with all these changes, this team was a completely overhauled version of the other one with some things you can obviously relate (3 Pokes the same as i the original team, although one was replaced in the original, and the others are the same types as their predecessors). For the record, I made a team with Heatran AND Empoleon and it worked well. For that alone I'm reasonably proud. But anyway, I present you with...THE TEAM. :D

TYPE CHART

AT A GLANCE

|-

-|-

-|-

-|-

-|-

-|-

-|

A CLOSER LOOK

Roserade @ Leftovers

• Natural Cure
• 252 HP | 88 Def | 12 SpDef | 156 Spe
• Timid Nature [+Speed, -Attack]
• Moveset:
  • Leaf Storm - Leaf Storm is a must have for LeadRose, letting it make a dent in opposing leads and bulky waters than try to set up or just annoy in general.
  • Hidden Power [Ice] - Hidden Power [Ice] is here to hit opposing Dragonite for high damage, seeing as they can be a dangerous foe with a DD under their belt, I can't afford to have a single Poke that's useless against it.
  • Sleep Powder - The bread and butter of Rose leading, sleep their lead, set up, swap out. So much fun. Many competitive battlers consider s slept Pokemon as good as dead unless it's a Sleep Talker so "killing" a Pokemon first turn is always a nice thing.
  • Toxic Spikes - A very useful move on a team for Empoleon, Toxic Spikes hit bulky Waters, Blissey, and Snorlax with Poison doing damage each turn. Generally on this team 1 layers is preferable to 2 because it takes 3 turns for 2 layers to out-damage one and 2 set up turns are difficult enough to find as it is. Using a single layer also makes them easier to reset mid-game.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  Well, I needed a Poke would could help against bulky waters and set Toxc Spikes. The main issue I had with Rose in the past, however, was that once you set up once you almost never got another chance if they spun or absorbed your Spikes. That pissed me off about the Suicide Rose leads, so I decided to test this set fro Fallen_Angel (topic here) and I've loved it. The midgame utility it offers compared to standard is so great, not to mention being able to actually counter bulky waters with this slot instead of having a "dead in the water" lead is fantastic.
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 156 Speed and a Timid nature allows Roserade to outrun max Speed Tran to give Sleep and damage subsequently.
  • 252 HP helps to maximize Rose's overall hit taking ability.
  • 88 Def allows Rose to survive Tyranitar's Stone Edge + a turn of Sandstorm damage in addition to a few other key points like 2 Dynamic Punches from Machamp.
  • 12 SpDef allows Rose to survive Standard Lead Azelf's Psychic and Fire Blast
  
  .....
• Considered Changes
  Hidden Power [Ground] > Hidden Power [Ice] for Lucario and Heatran.
  Stun Spore > Hidden Power [Ice] For Lucario, Heatran, Dnite, etc.

Swampert @ Leftovers

• Torrent
• 252 HP | 248 Def | 8 Spe
  
• Relaxed Nature [+Defense, -Speed]
• Moveset:
  • Earthquake - Earthquake is Pert's STAB move of choice and is useful against opponents like Heatran, Tentacruel, and Jirachi. Basically it's better than Waterfall because of typing and raw power so it's used. Standard STAB move.
  • Ice Beam -Changed from Ice Punch after Twist of Fate commented that Taunt/Toxic Gliscor could stall out my Pert, leaving me vulnerable to a number of potentially dangerous situations.
  • Stealth Rock - This move is a staple on any successful team, and this one is no exception. This thing can do at least 100-200% damage over the course of a match and taking the single turn to set it up almost guarantees a kills worth of damage if you play properly.
  • Roar - Phazing helps wrack up SR and Toxic Spikes damage while also scouting the opponent's team for potential threats to my Empoleon sweep. By previewing my opponent's team early on I can prioritize my own Pokes and figure out what Pokes are worth how much at what point in time. No information is bad information.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  Swampert provides a reliable mid-game SRer, a Dragonite check, a phazer, and a Heatran counter all in one. For those reasons alone, he was an obvious choice, but toss in the fact that he has great synergy with the rest of the team anyway (what with every single other team member except Empoleon resisting Grass and Swampert resisting Fire, Rock, and being immune to Electric) and you have a match made in heaven. Obviously I'd love it if Pert could have more offensive ability without sacrificing his needed bulk, but you can't get everything, right?
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 248 Def maximizes Pert's physical hit taking ability after hitting 8 Spe.
  • 252 HP Maximizes Pert's overall hit taking ability.
  • 8 Spe despite the Relaxed nature lets me outrun over Pert for a quicker phaze.
  
  .....
• Considered Changes
  Nothing, really. He does what he needs to do reliably; Doesn't do much else, but that's Swampert for you.

Dragonite @ Life Orb

• Inner Focus
• 196 Atk | 252 SpAtk | 60 Spe
• Rash Nature [+Special Attack, -Special Defense]
• Moveset:
  • Draco Meteor - Dragonite's powerful Draco Meteor is the only STAB move on this set, but it's really all that needs to be. Anything coming in on this move is going to take hefty damage, even if they resist it. That being said they won't take hefty damage the second use due to the drop, which is where the next move comes in.
  • Superpower - This move is vital to the use of MixNite as it allows Nite to finish off Pokes that fall into Meteor, like Blissey. This move is actually what makes Dragonite "superior" to Salamence as a wallbreaker, and if you purely look at that it certainly is the case (though there are other factors that made Mence a far more practical one, like Speed and ability to force swaps)
  • Fire Blast - Obviously a necessity for hitting Skarmory, Foretress, and other neutral to Fighting Steel types hard. Not much else to say, coverage.
  • Extremespeed - Extremespeed finds it's way onto this set for 2 main reasons -- Infernape and Starmie. Both Pokemon are quite common in the current metagame and both are among the fastest Pokes still used. Thankfully neither are particularly bulky and a powerful Extremespeed can normally KO them with a reasonable amount of prior damage in case my other checks don't succeed in beating them.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  I needed some key resistances and I needed a committed stall breaker. Since I replaced the SDApe and Charge Beam Rotom from the original team Stall was now an actual issue for my team, so I went with Dragonite. I also needed Extremespeed for the Starmie and Ape vulnerabilities present on the team, so I came up with a custom spread for Dragonite to be able to make use of it. This is what came out and I love it.
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 252 SpAtk EVs and the Rash nature means maximum damage from Dragonite's Draco Meteor and the ability to OHKO non-SpDef Skarm with Fire Blast (although I haven't seen a physically invested Skarm in ages)
  • 60 Speed allows Dragonite to outrun 16 Spe Suicune (who aims to outrun 4 Spe Rotom)
  • 196 EVs are the rest that are dumped into Atk to boost the damage output from Extremespeed and Superpower.
  
  .....
• Considered Changes
  Nothing <3333.

​

Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf

• Levitate
• 252 HP | 6 SpAtk | 252 Spe
• Timid Nature [+Speed, -Attack]
• Moveset:
  • Shadow Ball - One of Rotom's 2 STAB moves, this move is used on Pokes that Tbolt isn't effective against or Pokes weak to Ghost. Shit like Azelf or Swampert.
  • Thunderbolt - Rotom's stronger STAB move packs a real punch, allowing it to deal with things like Starmie, Ape, Luke, etc for this team. This move also allows Rotom to revenge kill +1 DD Gyarados, who can be a pain otherwise and oposing SubPetaya Empoleon.
  • Hydro Pump- Rotom's third and final attacking move is here for one main reason -- LO Tran. He's a big threat to my team without this move to back me up and while residual damage, LO recoil, Extremespeed and smart swapping can deal with it, a direct method is also preferred.
  • Trick - Get rid of the Scarf by giving it to someone else, thereby severely limiting their movepool options? I like. Useful against stall and offense when used correctly, this move can potentially cripple a Pokemon into uselessness which is a big boon to have.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  This is the Pokemon I originally had in this slot, I replaced it with Gengar who was very fun to use, but for the sake of the most potent threats to this team I re-replaced Gengar with Rotom. Rotom functions as my spinblocker, revenge killer, sweep stopper, and deadly threat checker. Rotom's ability to Check Lucario, Ape, Dragonite, and others has been a great boon to the team ever since I started testing it. I did change Rotom's Hidden Power [Ice] to Hydro Pump at advice regarding LOTran. Very useful in that regard and he at least can still be a weapon against stall by utilizing Trick.
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 252 Spe EVs and the timid nature maximize Rotom's speed, obviously.
  • 252 HP EVs maximizes Rotom's overall hit taking ability.
  • 6 SpAtk EVs are leftovers EVs used to slightly enhance Rotom's damaging ability.
  
  .....
• Considered Changes
  Changes made, no new ones at the moment.

Heatran @ Passho Berry

• Flash Fire
• 56 HP | 252 SpAtk | 200 Spe
• Modest Nature [+Special Attack, -Attack]
• Moveset:
  • Magma Storm - Heatran's unique move is so amazingly useful. I originally used it on Lead Heatrans to break Sashes in one turn, but after seeing Philip's Power Rangers team I fell in love with the idea of using it as a mid-game lure.
  • Hidden Power [Grass] - This move is Tran's secondary attack move, useful for when bulky water types are brought in against Magma Storm. Hidden Power [Grass] allows massive damage against them in addition to Magma Storm damage and ticks. Especially useful for Swampert.
  • Explosion - This moveis great to fit in somewhere on any team, especially this one where it acts as both a "killswitch" method to remove something I've lost my check for and as an additional method to remove things like Blissey or Gyarados who can prove a hindrance to Empoleon's sweep.
  • Taunt - This is here to assist in both beating stall (alongside Dragonite and Gengar) and is used to prevent Blissey from using Protect as Heatran Explodes.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  Because, like in the original team, I wanted a Pokemon that could lure and KO bulky waters. Initially that was SD Ape, but upon the changes in the metagame HeaTrap became the beta Poke for the job, in major part because of his trapping ability. Another pro of this Poke is it's ability to bring in Blissey and KO it, something Ape could never do.
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 252 SpAtk and a Modest nature maximizes Heatran's damage dealing ability.
  • 200 Spe allows Heatran to outrun Adamant Breloom, being able to net a KO before the Spore goes off.
  • 56 HP allows Heatran to take Water hits a bit better with the Passho Berry.
  
  .....
• Considered Changes
  Changes made, no new ones at the moment.

Empoleon @ Petaya Berry

• Torrent
• 12 HP | 28 Def | 252 SpAtk | 216 Spe
• Modest Nature [+Special Attack, -Attack]
• Moveset:
  • Surf - Empoleon's STAB move of choice for this set. When fully set up (Petaya and Torrent active) Empoleon's Surf is stronger than a Modest Kyogre's Surf (factoring Rain) and almost as powerful as a Timid Life Orb Kyogre's Surf. Putting that in context makes it very clear how powerful this mother's Surf is, doesn't it?
  • Ice Beam - Empoleon's supplementar move of choice on this team is Ice Beam. This may come off as strange to a lot of people reading this, but there's a reason for it; Water types are way, way, way easier to Trap and KO than Grass types and for the most part, Grass types are giving this team more trouble. In addition they've increased in number by a lot recently, so Ice Beam was selected.
  • Agility - Doubles Empoleon's speed in one use. Obviously a standard component of this set and it works.
  • Substitute - Works in tandem with Torrent, Petaya Berry, and Toxic Spikes to make Empoleon the dangerous sweeper it is. It really is unfortunate that he only gets a single shot at sweeping due to this method, but the raw power it allos often means it doesn't require a second opportunity.
  
  .....
• Why this Pokemon?:
  Well he's the basis of the entire damn team, so of course he's here. But as for why I built a team around him, with the advent of the Menceless and Latiasless metagame, I realized that two of Empoleon's greatest burdens were lifted. Without Latias one main roadblock to Empoleon's success was removed, and without Salamence faster Scarfers like Flygon and Jirachi would see far less use, lessening Empoleons fears of them somewhat, but with that came an increase of Grass types so Ice Beam remained as Empoleon's secondary attacking move.
  .....
• EVs & Nature:
  • 252 SpAtk and a Modest nature maximizes the damage this Empoleon can unleash.
  • 216 Spe allows the outspeeding of ScarfTran and those who aim to outrun him after an Agility boost as well as no investment Ninjask (lol).
  • 12 HP allows Empoleon's Petaya Berry to activate after 3 Substitutes instead of 4.
  • 28 Def is the remaining EVs as to allow Empoleon to take things like Ice Shard or Bullet punch better.
• .....
• Considered Changes
  Changes made, no new ones at the moment.

 

[Ciaran]

THREAT LIST

I'm forgoing minor threats and just listing the big ones here. In order of danger (relative). OUT OF DATE

Lucario: If it packs Bullet Punch and Ice Punch it can be a pain. It has little set up room (only if something is slept on Roserade, and even then Leaf Storm does a hefty amount to the relativly frail Steel type), and between that, Gengar, Swampert, and Dragonite's Extremespeed I'm able to handle them.

Infernape: A very well played Infernape can be a pain if Gengar is down. Thankfully, Dragonite's Extremespeed saves me once again being my main supplmentary check.

Starmie: A well played Life Orb Starmie can also do a fair bit of damage, but between Dragonite's Extremespeed, Gengar (if behind a Sub), Roserade, and Heatran's Passho berry I can generally handle them well.

Flygon: If Swampert's in low HP, Gengar has no chance to set up a Sub, and Dragonite's has a Superpower drop Scarf Flygon can be an absolute pain in the ass. Thankfullyit's quite a conditional threat in terms of it's offensive capabilities.

HAAAX: It sucks. Dick.

 

[Articanus]

Wow I just want to say that is a most well-presented team!

The only thing that bothers me terribly is how badly Swords Dance Lucario with Bullet Punch will terribly rip through your team if they have SR down: thankfully it doesn't have a lot of wiggle-room in terms of where it sets up, but either way it causes a lot of problems for your team. I don't know what to do about it except maybe use Gyarados over Dragonite. While this may seem redundant at first since you have Empoleon as a water attacker already, Gyarados acts as a lure to pokemon that beat your Empoleon(Starmie comes to mind) and helps to weaken them. The use of Taunt with the set gives you a multitude of opportunities to set-up with either Gengar or Empoleon: two pokemon being incredibly dangerous behind a Substitute. In general I suggest the Bulky DD set, with Waterfall, Taunt, Dragon Dance, and another move. I would suggest Stone Edge because offensive Zapdos and Dragonite, as you've mentioned, are two potential threats you don't want to open yourself up to at any time.

Hope I helped!

 

[Lucien Lachance]

you say there's nothing you want to change on ANY of your pokemon, so why come here?

 

[Ciaran]

you say there's nothing you want to change on ANY of your pokemon, so why come here?

Well for one, there's a considered change on Rose. And for two, just because I haven't posted a considered change doesn't mean there isn't one that's viable. It means I haven't found or thought of one. If I could build a team that needed no changes whatsoever...Well in the first place it'd be impossible and beyond that I wouldn't have put in the effort to post it. I don't claim to be the best player in the world and even if I did there would be things I wouldn't be able to think of that might add perspective I didn't have beforehand that someone else might be able to offer. If I knew what changes could be made to improve the team I wouldn't be posting a RMT, now would I? Nothing currently considered does not mean nothing is considerable.

That's why. Next time, say something constructive, please.

@Articanus: As great as the suggestion sounds, I'm hesitant to make it because of one main reason -- Extremespeed. That move saves my ass from Infernape, Lucario, Starmie, Flygon, and a lot of other random Pokes just because of the high output from it. Without it I'd feel more vulnerable to key threats, but I'll certainly take the advice under advisment and test the change. Thanks for the rate.

 

[symphonyx64]

Minor nitpick, but it could make your life easier in the long run:

I recommend changing Ice Punch to Ice Beam on Swampert

Ice Punch vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 55.4% - 65.5%

Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 85.9% - 101.7%

Even though Swampert's special attack is relatively weaker, managing physically defensive Pokémon such as Gliscor is much easier thanks to a much lower special defense stat.

Excellent presentation as well!

 

[Ghost.]

Hi

Solid team as always Ciaran, and very well laid out. I have a few suggestions though that will hopefully be of use.

On Empoleon I find it is redundant to run max speed as it only outruns odd things like max speed +1 Dragonite, Scarf Togekiss and Scarf Luke and maybe a few other things that aren't common at all. This is the spread I use 12hp 32def 252spatk 212spe.Your Petaya now activates after 3 Subs due to the 12HP, you outrun ScarfTran after an Agility, and the remainder in Def to beef you up a bit. I've never once missed the speed.

On Heatran, you may want to consider bumping up the speed investment to 200 Evs. This is to ensure Breloom isn't sporing you (assuming you are just going to let who is out take the spore and not a designated member) before you attack. So yeah, it outspeeds Adamant Breloom. Jolly is more manageable. The Evs can be taken out of HP (you'll never be KOed by Specs Starmie Surf even with no HP evs so whatevah). I suggest this because if Breloom can get the Spore off and a Sub up, it dents you considerably.

I'm not a fan of a Dragonite with no recovery...so though it is probably more of a personal preference than anything, I would suggest removing Extremespeed for Roost. This will help further with your stallingbreaking abilities. I just don't see your team having issues with Starmie with Roserade, Passho Tran and Empoleon who can troll through it if it is like 66% Hp. Against Flygon your best weapon is probably prediction & using your immunities/ resistances really, even then...you have Swampert. I can see Extremespeed helping with likes of Infernape though, but still....you have Gengar to check it and Dragonite with Roost beats all Infernape except Special Mix.
If you make the change to Roost, there is little reason to invest so heavily in Attack and so you can afford to invest in Speed.
Therefore, IF you do change to Roost, I reccomend a spread of 56Atk 252SpA 200Spe to enable you to OHKO Calm Blissey after Rocks. Speed is for JollyTar and the defensive base 100s.

I can only reccomend these small changes as your team as a whole is clearly solid and you have at least 1 way to deal with most threats.

As a final note, I'd just say to try and keep Swampert as healthy as possible, as a lategame Dragonite has a good chance of sweeping you.

Great team =]

 

[Ciaran]

Minor nitpick, but it could make your life easier in the long run:

I recommend changing Ice Punch to Ice Beam on Swampert

Ice Punch vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 55.4% - 65.5%

Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 85.9% - 101.7%

Even though Swampert's special attack is relatively weaker, managing physically defensive Pokémon such as Gliscor is much easier thanks to a much lower special defense stat.

Excellent presentation as well!

I would make the change if Gliscor was an issue for me, but seeing as it's actually a beneficial Poke for the opponent to bring out, allowing Gengar to set up and generally speaking Dragonite to get a free attack off, it's not a problem that I'm going to make the change for exclusively. Now if Ive Punch didn't OHKO Flygon or Dragonite or something, I'd make the change instantly.

@Ghost. : I love the SubPetaya spread. I'm def gonna try that out, same with the increased Tran speed. Thanks.

The part that I have the toughest bit agreeing with is the same component I was hesitant about with other raters -- Extremespeed is such a valuable resource to this team I'd prefer to not remove it if at all possible, but I'll go ahead and test the change regardless so thanks for offering that insight.

 

[Smith]

This team looks really great! I actually had thought of using Heatrap and Empoleon together on a team, but the other 4 members made the team suck and I ended up discarding the whole team. I had also used a bulkier Roserade lead with Leftovers, which I submitted to C+C but which was rejected. In a way I'm glad that somebody could use my ideas better than I could! The only suggestion I have is to run CB Nite over MixNite- Gengar and Heatran do well against stall, suplemented by Roserade, and CB Nite is just a boss! He can revenge things much better than MixNite and is a valuable late game cleaner. If Jolly, it also does much better against Lucario and Infernape.

 

[Nosferalto]

While you certainly have stall teams covered, perhaps the biggest issue with your team is taking on offensive teams. Analysing your team, the addition of a Choice Scarf Rotom-H would be beneficial. The extra Speed that Rotom-H has boosted with a Scarf will give this team a well needed way to take down Starmie and Gengar as Life Orb versions seem to be problematic as well as a SD Lucario and DD Gyarados check (even though both have a difficult time setting up). Replacing Gengar isn't such a big issue since Rotom-H has similar typing and can still act as a Rapid Spin-blocker, stall teams are are already covered wonderfully by Dragonite and Heatran. If you decide to opt for Scarf Rotom-H (Timid Nature), use the following moveset: Thunderbolt | Overheat | Shadow Ball | Trick with 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 Spe. Trick can potentially cripple Blissey who likes to switch-in on Rotom-H, aiding Empoleon significantly while the extra bulk may help you out against the threats you mentioned as well, so I would at least give Scarf Rotom-H a test.

As for minor changes, consider using Lum Berry on Swampert. It seems like lead Machamp can be a nightmare for your team especially if it packs Ice Punch in it's moveset, and a Lum Berry will make Machamp easier to handle especially with the Impish Nature you are using (since you are able to outspeed it). Lum Berry is also helpful to protect Machamp from status since Toxic or Will-o-Wisp essentially cripples Swampert. Also, HP Ground can be used instead of HP Ice to hit Lucario and Heatran if you truly want to. Good Luck.

EDIT: 5 Stars.

 

[tobi10]

Hey Ciaran! This is a great team and has an excellent presentation, props on that. Thanks for the mention as well =) Most of my suggestions are only small advice, but they can help you improve. A well played CM Jirachi can be very dangerous for your team, so I am going to suggest using 228 Speed EVs on Heatran to outspeed 40 Speed Jirachi, along Jolly Tyranitar. Next thing I noticed is that some set up sweepers, like Dragon Dance Gyarados and Agility Lucario are especially dangerous. They have an easy time setting up Roserade, so I reccomend that you change your set. Energy Ball and Hidden Power Ground can be good alternatives to your offensive moves, not to mention that you can take Heatran in one hit (after two SR switch-ins iirc) so that Swampert doesnt eat the Explosion. I would like to know how do you deal with lead Azelf, since Leaf Storm deals much less damage now without the Special Attack EVs; if you switch out of him when playing, then I think that Grass Knot can be used over Energy Ball, as it hits Gyarados, Tyranitar and Suicune harder without lowering your Special Attack.
On Empoleon, 12 HP / 252 Spe / 244 SpAtk is the better spread imo. The power loss is almost not noticeable, while max Speed speed lets you beat Choice Scarf Rotom-A, which is more important than having a few more SpAtk evs.

Good Luck with your team, I hope I had helped!!

 

[Luphrous]

Mamoswine, especially if T-Spikes aren't down/have been removed, causes your team immense trouble. Dragonite, Heatran, and Empoleon are all dealt swift OHKOs. In order for Jolly LO Mamo to sweep, your opponent merely needs to get Gengar to half HP, Swampert to 40% or less, and Roserade down to 75%. I would not consider this situation to hard to achieve, and so to help out in this regard, I'm going to second Nosferalto's suggestion of ScarfRotom-H. Mamoswine's Jolly LO Ice Shard deals only 27% - 31.9%, making it that much harder for Mamo to sweep. Between that and your Roserade's ability to stick around and lay down TS even if it's beat by an opposing lead, I figure you should be able to play around Mamoswine. He's still got the potential to cause a lot of harm, but at least with this change you have one more way to stop Mamoswine.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to say it originally, but congratulations on this exceptional team, it's very solid and clearly well thought out.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Really cool team, I've used a very similar one all the Pokemon apart from Dragonite with the same or similar sets. The feeling of successfully pulling off an Empoleon sweep is prettty sweet :).

I have a suggestion for your Roserade though, try Stun Spore over HP Ice. As it is, without the offensive investment HP Ice is really quite weak, even against things its hitting for 4x. You usually get the OHKO on Flygon coming in, but at the same time you have to predict it coming in and HP Ice isn't an attack that you can really just throw around at a team you've not scouted. Also, if DD Dragonite comes in on Roserade, it'll probably be just after you've slept something, and so you won't have SR up. HP Ice does 76.8-90.4% to the absolutely weakest Dragonite you will see, so you will never OHKO and it will with all of its moves after a Dragon Dance. Stun Spore effectively neuters Dragonite just as well as HP Ice if not better, but also means you can catch things like ScarfFlygon, ScarfJirachi, Infernape, Heatran and Lucario on the switch with it as well. I find ScarfFlygon to really be the bane of Empoleon sweeps, as it just doesn't die until the end game and good players will always EV it to outspeed Empoleon if the rest of their team has trouble with it. However, Flygon is also used a lot early game to throw around some U-turns and scout, so being able to catch it with the unexpected Stun Spore is the most effective way of taking it out of the equation for your sweep. Stun Spore has more general utility than HP Ice as well, since nothing is immune to it and the vast majority of Roserade's common switch ins are horribly crippled by it.

Make sure you only throw it around after getting your Toxic Spikes up though, because otherwise you might catch something you want Poisoned on the switch with paralysis. Good luck with your team :).

 

[Ciaran]

Really cool team, I've used a very similar one all the Pokemon apart from Dragonite with the same or similar sets. The feeling of successfully pulling off an Empoleon sweep is prettty sweet :).

I have a suggestion for your Roserade though, try Stun Spore over HP Ice. As it is, without the offensive investment HP Ice is really quite weak, even against things its hitting for 4x. You usually get the OHKO on Flygon coming in, but at the same time you have to predict it coming in and HP Ice isn't an attack that you can really just throw around at a team you've not scouted. Also, if DD Dragonite comes in on Roserade, it'll probably be just after you've slept something, and so you won't have SR up. HP Ice does 76.8-90.4% to the absolutely weakest Dragonite you will see, so you will never OHKO and it will with all of its moves after a Dragon Dance. Stun Spore effectively neuters Dragonite just as well as HP Ice if not better, but also means you can catch things like ScarfFlygon, ScarfJirachi, Infernape, Heatran and Lucario on the switch with it as well. I find ScarfFlygon to really be the bane of Empoleon sweeps, as it just doesn't die until the end game and good players will always EV it to outspeed Empoleon if the rest of their team has trouble with it. However, Flygon is also used a lot early game to throw around some U-turns and scout, so being able to catch it with the unexpected Stun Spore is the most effective way of taking it out of the equation for your sweep. Stun Spore has more general utility than HP Ice as well, since nothing is immune to it and the vast majority of Roserade's common switch ins are horribly crippled by it.

Make sure you only throw it around after getting your Toxic Spikes up though, because otherwise you might catch something you want Poisoned on the switch with paralysis. Good luck with your team :).

I love this idea. So much.

Planning to test Scarf Rotom-H as well as it really helps with all the major flaws I've noticed with the team. No matter how good Gengar's set is, it doesn't do that sadly enough.

As for Empoleon I'm going to test both of the alternate spreads I've been given by Ghost. and legendary_07 and make a decision on them.

Thanks for the rates, everyone!

 

[Manaphy]

Just a Nitpick: On Heatran, run 200 Speed EVs as it let's you get the Jump on Adamant Breloom. Your current EVs are for a Choice Specs Latias Surf, and she's long gone.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I love this team - nothing more satisfying than blowing up on Waters and sweeping with Empoleon. Pictures are awesome - where did you get them?

I agree with Scarf Rotom. It checks most of the threats to your team and it's less risky to use as a stallbreaker. Trick can be useful too, and a STAB T-Bolt is quite useful to deal with Offensive Suicune, which can be a bit of an issue at +1.

 

[Ghost.]

Hi again,

I can't actually remember going against a Scarftom with an Empoleon after an agility but by just doing the calcs..... Scarftom is reaching 447 speed, Modest Empoleon with 252 Spe Evs is reaching 438 after an agility.

With Legendary's spread, you still aren't outspeeding the Rotom. So I maintain that my spread is better. Better defences and higher special attack (every little helps). By all means, if an important 'mon is named that IS outsped by max speed but isn't with mine, I'll admit humiliating defeat :(

Of course, I could just be not taking something into account regarding the speed....but I don't think so.

Oh and congrats on the 5 stars.

 

[Ciaran]

Just a Nitpick: On Heatran, run 200 Speed EVs as it let's you get the Jump on Adamant Breloom. Your current EVs are for a Choice Specs Latias Surf, and she's long gone.

Actually I took the standard site EVs and maxed SpAtk by taking from HP since I knew that it would be largely unneeded, but given the Passho Berry I could probably afford a little bit less HP and/or SpAtk to get the jump on Loom.

@Ice-Eyes: ScarfRotom is likely to be replacing Gengar as a member of this team. I'll miss the Sub abuse but the checking of Lucario is going to be a far better benefit than anything Gengar had to offer over Rotom-h IMO. Thanks for the rate.

@Ghost. : Thanks for making that clear, I was wondering about that myself. I think I'll end up using your spread in the end. Thanks for the comment and the congrats. :D

 

[ToF]

Forget HP Ice on Roserade. Use HP Ground on Roserade to get the jump on lead Heatran and Metagross to an extent. I still think a suicide Roserade is better for this team though because Roserade can still beat up bulky waters without its sash in tact. Suicune will die to a Leaf Storm even after a Calm Mind with max special attack, whereas I think it can Rest on your current spread and set up.

Definitely run Ice Beam over Ice Punch on Swampert. Gets the jump on Gliscor, which is really important considering it can just Taunt and Toxic Swampert to death, and Swampert is extremely important at keeping things like Outrage Flygon at bay. I know you have two steels, but Heatran might be dead because it Exploded early game, and you don't want Empoleon taking hits at all because that messes with the whole Sub + Petaya strategy.

 

[Ciaran]

Updated the OP with the potential changes. Bump.

 

[Piccolo]

Keep Hidden Power Ice on Roserade. HP Ice is still enough for her to come in an end most Dragonites after Stealth Rock (if she survives a possible ExtremeSpeed).

:/ Though Gengar's fun to use, it's probably better to have a Scarf Rotom to better cover the threats spoken of in in your first 2 posts. Dragonite's still there to deal heavy damage all around. :)

Why not just bump Heatrans Speed EVs to 216 to outrun Adamant Metagross? Might as well if you're gonna put in a heavy investment.

 

[Ciaran]

Bump. Updates made in the OP;

After testing I've made the following changes:
Altered Empy's spread
200 Spe on Tran
ScarfRotom-A > Gengar
Ice Beam > Ice Punch on Pert


Still undecided on what to do with Rose, to be frank.

 

[IronBullet]

Hey,

I don't see the point of HP Ice on Rotom tbf. Dragonite gets 0 setup opportunities against your team, and in the unlikely occasion that it does, Swampert takes a +1 Outrage and KOs back. So, I'd suggest simply going with Hydro Pump to help out with you major LO tran weakness. Nothing can switch into it, and since Dragonite fails to outspeed, it can Dragon Pulse for the kill or simply switch out and KO Nite on the second switch-in thanks to Rocks. Hydro Pump also allows Rotom to take on the omnipresent Scarftar switch-in, while still hitting Gliscor really hard.

Go suicide with Roserade. Your current spread actually loses to offensive Cune, and it loses to a lot of common leads. Suicide Rosy OHKOs cune after a CM as ToF said, and with Sleep Powder + Sash, chances are you'll get up both layers of T-Spikes very early in the game.

Great team, nice job!

 

[Ciaran]

Hey,

I don't see the point of HP Ice on Rotom tbf. Dragonite gets 0 setup opportunities against your team, and in the unlikely occasion that it does, Swampert takes a +1 Outrage and KOs back. So, I'd suggest simply going with Hydro Pump to help out with you major LO tran weakness. Nothing can switch into it, and since Dragonite fails to outspeed, it can Dragon Pulse for the kill or simply switch out and KO Nite on the second switch-in thanks to Rocks. Hydro Pump also allows Rotom to take on the omnipresent Scarftar switch-in, while still hitting Gliscor really hard.

I hadn't faced a LOTran in my testing, so I hadn't thought about it but that is a very good point. I'm gonna go ahead and change that.

Go suicide with Roserade. Your current spread actually loses to offensive Cune, and it loses to a lot of common leads. Suicide Rosy OHKOs cune after a CM as ToF said, and with Sleep Powder + Sash, chances are you'll get up both layers of T-Spikes very early in the game.

Great team, nice job!

The spread actually does better against most common leads than regular Suicude Rose does, and has far more midgame capacity, which is really where I need it -- being able to reset my TSpikes should they be Spun away or absorbed is a must for Rose, and it's my biggest beef with Suicide Rose.

Against 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe offensive Cune Rose does: 286 Atk vs 266 Def & 341 HP (140 Base Power): 324 - 384 (95.01% - 112.61%)
With Leaf Storm.
After a CM: 286 Atk vs 399 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 218 - 258 (53.96% - 63.86%) (That means between damage, SR, and Toxic Spikes for 2 turns Cune is either dead, or about to be dead, in practical play this is dead)

Against max HP Cune Rose does: 286 Atk vs 266 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 324 - 384 (80.20% - 95.05%)
Meaning with SR and 1 turn of TSpikes I KO almost all the time anyway and if I don't, I outspeed no speed investment Cune anyway.

In the first place, though, why would Cune be coming in on Rose to set up as ToF mentioned? >>;

And I have Rotom who can Trick Cune preventing set up or changing moves. Cune's not a big deal enough that I sacrifice my ability to reset Spikes for it.

 

[IronBullet]

Cune wouldn't be coming in on Rosie, you would be switching in Roserade to deal with it as it sets up a CM. Yours is a valid point though. If you want Roserade to have more midgame potential, why not try out Swampert in the lead slot, and bring in Roserade midgame to setup T-Spikes instead? A spread of 252 HP/120 Def/136 Sp Def with a Calm nature allows it to setup on the majority of Special Attackers in the metagame, as well as being a great Starmie counter. You can also run dual Spikes to abuse Swampert's Roar and your teams potential to force switches even more.