True.
Bulk Up is slightly viable on an offensive set assuming no Tflame or such, because then Medicham because ridiculously powerful.
Not the best option, but well....
Imagine successful Scolipede pass....
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Pokémon Medicham
- Thread starter Ash Borer
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Bulk Up is slightly viable on an offensive set assuming no Tflame or such, because then Medicham because ridiculously powerful.
Not the best option, but well....
Imagine successful Scolipede pass....
Ah yes, but mega medicham does get HJK which becomes simply ridiculous after just one boost. I never meant to have its bulk up set compared to conkeldurr's. Also, has anyone tried last Gen's scarfcham set? I remember using that a lot and was even viable in OU for sheer wallbreaking power and could clean up late game. I am just wondering
M-Medicham already OHKOs almost the entire game, and 2HKOs everything else besides a handful of things like Sableye. Sure, some 2HKOs become OHKOs at +1, but why not just attack twice instead of boosting once and attacking once? Medicham is too easily checked, it's better to just deal a ton of damage and then switch out.
Bulk Up also takes a move slot, and that means giving up coverage on something.
On the other hand, M-Medicham survives Shadow Sneak from Choice Band 252+ Aegislash after a bulk up.
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 242-283 (92.7 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 159-190 (60.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 93-109 (35.6 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 136-162 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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+1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 306-360 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Its pretty critical to OHKO Skarmory, and critical to turn OHKOs from Aegislash into 2HKOs
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 242-283 (92.7 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 159-190 (60.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 93-109 (35.6 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 136-162 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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+1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 306-360 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Its pretty critical to OHKO Skarmory, and critical to turn OHKOs from Aegislash into 2HKOs
Actually the moveset I would run for Mega Medicham would most likely be this: Medicham @ Medichamite, EV's: 4 Defense, 252 Attack, 252, Speed, Nature:Jolly. Moveset: Ice Punch, Hi-Jump Kick, Psycho Cut, Bullet Punch. The reason being for bullet punch is simple. Due to the fighting typing of Medicham. This pokemon has a weakness to fairy type. However, running Bullet Punch with Pure Power can deal massive damage to any fairy type. While Ice Punch can deal damage to Flying types while doing a lot of damage with, again, pure power. This the reason why I like this moveset. Although, I can recommend either running Psycho Cut or Substitute, for substitute can stall fairies or flying types.
Actually, Bullet Punch is a pretty weak move really doesn't do a good job of killing Fairy-types at all, its way too weak to be of use. 40 BP with no STAB boost or anything is nothing to write home about, even with the type advantage multiplier. In fact, Bullet Punch is so weak that even Super effective Bullet Punch is actually weaker than resisted STAB Hi Jump Kick and Neutral Psycho Cut vs mono Fairy-types such as Sylveon (calcs will be below this post). Not to mention that at least of the common/good Fairy-types in OU are either neutral to Bullet Punch (Azumarill), or have a secondary typing that makes them neutral/weak to one of Medicham's other coverage moves (Mega Mawile and Togekiss for example).
As promised, here are the damage calcs that prove that SE bullet punch is still weaker than resisted HJK and neutral Psycho Cut, ordered from most damage output to least.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 271-319 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 251-296 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 251-296 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
instead of bullet punch you could use poison jab. most fairies are slower then mega medicham's base 100 speed, mega gard is the only fairy with base 100 speed u will see in ou, the only other possible fairy that can out speed you is dedenne with its base 101 speed.
poison jab isn't really worth it tbh. most fairies are gonna get absolutely destroyed by stab psycho cut or a coverage move, and poison isn't very handy offensively. i wonder if I'm the only one who prefers drain punch on the sub set simply due to the healing, i mean drain punch still gets heaps of kills anyway
i mentioned poison jab b/c the conversation was about using bullet punch to kill fairy types. so people need to chill with saying how useless the move is and just read the conversation it was in. Also amzaneok it does more dmg then thunderpunch since it has 5 higher base power.
The TurtleLord, pretty sure most people prefer drain punch on the sub set
lastly is it my imagination or does a set with a fighting move, psychic move, and ice move stop the common stall core of pink blob, mega venu and land-t. which makes mega medicham pretty good at breaking stall
The TurtleLord, pretty sure most people prefer drain punch on the sub set
lastly is it my imagination or does a set with a fighting move, psychic move, and ice move stop the common stall core of pink blob, mega venu and land-t. which makes mega medicham pretty good at breaking stall
My mistake. I was under the impression that it was 70BP. I suppose I'm still not used to even thinking about Poison-type moves being used competitively, and never looked into them much before.
I would still use Thunderpunch though for its more common applications.
Besides excadrill, max speed landorus-t and random UU threats, I don't see much of a reason to run a +speed nature on Megacham unless you're determined to outspeed things on the same turn you mega evolve. Considering that I run Fake Out on medicham, I guess I kinda evaded the 80 base speed issue without having to run Jolly.
Speaking of which, Fake Out has always been considered a waste of a moveslot on Pokemon in general. Yes, I see why it's a complete waste on pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan, gen 5 Medicham, Mienshao(?), etc. However, when used in conjunction with Bullet Punch, it forms a ridiculously powerful and dependable priority combination capable of grabbing revenge kills left and right, while still having room for HJK and Ice Punch.
Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch
Base 40+40 priority coming off of 656 attack makes Megacham one of few good users of non-stab priority. Furthermore, given an adamant nature Fake Out allows Medicham to deal enough damage to ensure a KO with HJK against bulky pokemon such as defensive Rotom-W. In terms of coverage, I have come across maybe two instances in which a coverage move would have been helpful: Gyarados and Aegislash. Both of these pokemon are often solid checks to move Medicham anyway, since Thunderpunch and Firepunch are seen less often. These moves offer very specific and often useless coverage anyway imo.
I ran a few calculations and discovered that the power of Medicham's combination priority is equal to that of banded Scizor's Bullet Punch. Regarding strong priority users, I consider Medicham to be indisputably better due to having less issues with Steel resistance, not getting choice locked, and being faster and more powerful overall.
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%)
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%)
Total: (39.6 - 47)
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%)
I don't know if this is the best set for Medicham (assuming there is such thing as a "best set"), but experience tells me this is pretty damn effective. I've gone 20-1 on the OU ladder with this set and Spiritomb (lol) and I owe most of my victories to Medicham's revenge killing and wallbreaking abilities.
Speaking of which, Fake Out has always been considered a waste of a moveslot on Pokemon in general. Yes, I see why it's a complete waste on pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan, gen 5 Medicham, Mienshao(?), etc. However, when used in conjunction with Bullet Punch, it forms a ridiculously powerful and dependable priority combination capable of grabbing revenge kills left and right, while still having room for HJK and Ice Punch.
Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch
Base 40+40 priority coming off of 656 attack makes Megacham one of few good users of non-stab priority. Furthermore, given an adamant nature Fake Out allows Medicham to deal enough damage to ensure a KO with HJK against bulky pokemon such as defensive Rotom-W. In terms of coverage, I have come across maybe two instances in which a coverage move would have been helpful: Gyarados and Aegislash. Both of these pokemon are often solid checks to move Medicham anyway, since Thunderpunch and Firepunch are seen less often. These moves offer very specific and often useless coverage anyway imo.
I ran a few calculations and discovered that the power of Medicham's combination priority is equal to that of banded Scizor's Bullet Punch. Regarding strong priority users, I consider Medicham to be indisputably better due to having less issues with Steel resistance, not getting choice locked, and being faster and more powerful overall.
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%)
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%)
Total: (39.6 - 47)
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%)
I don't know if this is the best set for Medicham (assuming there is such thing as a "best set"), but experience tells me this is pretty damn effective. I've gone 20-1 on the OU ladder with this set and Spiritomb (lol) and I owe most of my victories to Medicham's revenge killing and wallbreaking abilities.
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Your set seems extremely interesting, but I assume you do have problems with certain walls that you could normally beat, like Mega Venasuar, correct?
Poison Jab is not good, period. Sylveon is usually ran with max defense and isn't OHKOed, specially defensive Clefable is OHKOed by Poison Jab but not defensive Clefable, Gardevoir is too threatening to leave Medicham in on, and other fairies have weaknesses covered by the elemental punches/are neutral to HJK (or are not OU-relevant.)
You forgot Zen Headbutt. Without that, you're walled by Mega Venusaur, and being one of very few Pokemon capable of OHKOing it (aside from max defense ones) is a huge plus. And while Fake Out+Bullet Punch has similar power to Scizor's Bullet Punch over two turns, you're forgetting the third turn, where Scizor pulls ahead. Most Talonflames have Choice Band or Life Orb, by the way. If I wanted to pick off weakened opponents with priority moves I'd use either of them; Medicham should be OHKOing or 2HKOing things, Bullet Punch is just not a good move on it because it's such a weak move without STAB, Technician or Band.
I did forget mega venusaur, but it still takes a decent chunk from adamant HJK and it definitely isn't a safe switch-in unless it's already mega evolved. This is obviously a personal preference, but I consider double-priority revenge killing more important than the ability to KO one notable wall unless your team happens to be particularly weak to mega venusaur. Zen Heatbutt is more situational in that respect.
In terms of comparing Megacham to other famous priority users, there are a few reasons why I consider megacham better at the job than Scizor:
-Medicham doesn't get choice locked. This factor shouldn't be downplayed since being locked into bullet punch can be VERY bad, even if you end up revenge killing something. It often gives your opponent a free turn afterwards, and not having to worry about this is a huge plus.
-Bullet punch is resisted by more pokemon than the FO/BP combo. Unless you're up against Aegislash or Mega Lucario, the FO/BP combo has better neutral coverage.
-Medicham still has a ridiculous HJK and much more speed. It boasts much more power than Scizor could ever wish for.
-The "third turn" you mentioned shouldn't even be a factor. If Scizor and Megacham can't OHKO (or 2HKO) something with their priority moves, they will have to take a hit regardless. So why not just use HJK or Ice Punch? If the opponent switches in another pokemon on Bullet Punch, it's probably a pokemon that resists the move and doesn't care about getting hit with it twice.
Now I'm not going to argue that Megacham is a better priority user than Talonflame, but Brave Bird is one of the only reasons why Talonflame is even OU. It doesn't have a whole lot else going for it.
I highly suggest trying the set out before saying that these moves simply aren't good. Fake Out on its own isn't good, nor is Bullet Punch. Put them together, however, and you will see why this set is a completely viable option over coverage moves. Medicham is simply powerful enough to make non-stab priority work, unlike most other pokemon in the game.
In terms of comparing Megacham to other famous priority users, there are a few reasons why I consider megacham better at the job than Scizor:
-Medicham doesn't get choice locked. This factor shouldn't be downplayed since being locked into bullet punch can be VERY bad, even if you end up revenge killing something. It often gives your opponent a free turn afterwards, and not having to worry about this is a huge plus.
-Bullet punch is resisted by more pokemon than the FO/BP combo. Unless you're up against Aegislash or Mega Lucario, the FO/BP combo has better neutral coverage.
-Medicham still has a ridiculous HJK and much more speed. It boasts much more power than Scizor could ever wish for.
-The "third turn" you mentioned shouldn't even be a factor. If Scizor and Megacham can't OHKO (or 2HKO) something with their priority moves, they will have to take a hit regardless. So why not just use HJK or Ice Punch? If the opponent switches in another pokemon on Bullet Punch, it's probably a pokemon that resists the move and doesn't care about getting hit with it twice.
Now I'm not going to argue that Megacham is a better priority user than Talonflame, but Brave Bird is one of the only reasons why Talonflame is even OU. It doesn't have a whole lot else going for it.
I highly suggest trying the set out before saying that these moves simply aren't good. Fake Out on its own isn't good, nor is Bullet Punch. Put them together, however, and you will see why this set is a completely viable option over coverage moves. Medicham is simply powerful enough to make non-stab priority work, unlike most other pokemon in the game.
Is Hydreigon, Haxorous, Kyurem, and Lucario officially UU?
Obviously not, but my point still stands. I have found Adamant to be much better than Jolly on FO Medicham. Lucario is the only one of those four who are common in OU (though kyurem-b should be more common), and it needs to be in base form for Medicham to outspeed anyway.
Kyurem-B takes 61.2 - 72.6% from Medicham's priority, so it's not terribly difficult to KO. Furthermore, Medicham normally cant even touch Scarf Hydreigon or Kyurem or a +1 Haxorus that also takes a minimum of 60% from priority, thus making it easy to revenge kill without taking a scratch.
Please consider the rest of my post instead of picking at stupid details.
Kyurem-B takes 61.2 - 72.6% from Medicham's priority, so it's not terribly difficult to KO. Furthermore, Medicham normally cant even touch Scarf Hydreigon or Kyurem or a +1 Haxorus that also takes a minimum of 60% from priority, thus making it easy to revenge kill without taking a scratch.
Please consider the rest of my post instead of picking at stupid details.
dialganet
Banned deucer.
First of all, and just to clarify I'm not hostile to your argument and I think you made some really good points, I do agree about the utility of BP. I found abandoning an elemental punch for BP was giving up too much coverage. That was until I was left with only unevolved Mcham against a +3+2+1 DD Weakness Policy TTar with 40-45% left, a NP togekiss at 40% and a full health Greninja, with rocks up on my side of the field. I thought I had lost until Mcham came in, straight up megaevolved, and proceeded to BP to Death TTar, Togekiss, and OHKO Greninja with HJK while eating up rocks, a couple of turns of sand and a scald. That was hilarious.
Now, down to the Fake Out and Adamant vs Jolly business. For the latter, I also generally rely on priority on the megaevolve turn (maybe to finish off a weakened mon), or, otherwise, I come in on an obvious switch, so that's not really an issue to me at all. However, I do think that the nature issue is way more important after mega evolving. Not outspeeding base 100 (and something below) 100% of the time is kinda big, especially with your set (Ice Punch/FO/BP/HJK). With that set, Zard X can come in and DD with impunity on you or revenge kill you (and if you're switching out as he tries to revenge kill, something else is gonna take a good hit, even if resisted; if he starts sweeping, you'll have problems even when you'll come back using FO+BP, as he resists BP, but Zard X is a total monster anyway), Salamence (not as common as in the past, I'll give you that) can revenge kill, and so does Intimidate Arcanine (witch resist BP) even without using Espeed, as does +speed unevolved Luke etc. Kyurem-B and Haxorus will lose a good chunk of healt if they dare to come in, so that's not that relevant, if you have something else than can reliably finish them off (and everyone who chooses Mcham should have those kind of Pokemon). I run Jolly so I can threaten these kind of mons. Otherwise, they will outspeed you and straight up kill you 100% of the time or set up in case you've revealed your set entirely (and that's going to happen, because you're going to use FO+BP frequently, and fighting STAB is obvious).
Movepool-wise, I find, Zen headbutt very good. First of all, it's powerful, way more powerful than the punches. And it's damn useful when you can't risk HJK and an elemental punch would do nothing at all to the target (aka neutral damage to a fighting resist/immunity). Talonflame takes a lot if he dares come in on ZH too. Ice Punch has a lot of uses though, and I'm considering replacing ZH for IP. For reference, I run HJK/BP/ZH/Fire Punch, and I do believe that Fire Punch is the most useful of the elemental punches. I find FP more useful than Ice Punch, because of Ferrothorn (you'll otherwise have to risk HJK fearing protect) and Aegislash, especially if ShieldSword is lurking, menacing to come in and proceed to have you miss HJK and straight up kill you with Shadow Sneak. Fire Punch destroys Aegislash, and Aegislash becomes a big problem with your set. To add salt to the injury, that thing is everywhere.
If anyone is wondering, yes I've tried FO+BP, and I found the lack of coverage rather lackluster, especially on a supposed wallbreaker-to-be. I see you use more as a kind of a priority revenge killer, but the FO+BP combo has a lot of problems with ghosts and steels not weak to HJK. Just out of curiosity, as I'm interested in that kind of set, who do you pair him with?
I am so confused right now.
How did you OHKO a Greninja, it outspeeds you?
Or can the LO Variant not KO Mcham?
dialganet
Banned deucer.
Timid 252spatk LO Scald didn't OHKO Mcham. Sorry if the post is a bit confusing, but my english is a bit rusty atm.
Even after Sandstorm damage for 3 turns? Damn, not too shabby. It's bulk is 60/80/80, but not bad, not bad.
Though if it was surf it might have been different. Still, an interesting set, that functions differently than the other ones.
dialganet
Banned deucer.
I think it was two. I came in to TTar, finishing him off (turn one), then I got rid of togekiss (turn two), and then there was the final turn against Greninja. Yes, two turns of sand. But I came in with stealth rock up, so add some more prior damage though Mcham resists it. And yes, Hydro Pump or Surf would have killed Mcham for sure. I was left with 10HPs at level 50, just for reference.
alright seeing as how you guys have given good arguments over BP I can see the use of it. But to start a new branch of discussion, which elemental punch, if you must run only one of them is most useful? I run ice punch for dragons, flying types and ground types, especially gliscor who, while not as common, can take any other hit and proceed to toxic stall you to death
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