Second edition of the metagame discussion thread! Genesect received a ban from OU by a rather large percentage, and SPL is just starting up, should be lots to discuss. This thread is pretty light on rules but make no mistake moderators will make an effort to keep this thread on track. Enjoy!
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Metagross avoided a ban to Ubers last generation by a 43% margin, correct? I feel like this time it'll be roughly the same this time, because (UNLIKE GENESECT) I'm pretty sure he actually suffers from the worst case of four moveslot syndrome in OU right now. (Steel move, likely a psychic move, two coverage moves) That, and Rocky Helmet is REALLY popular right now, which kind of mitigates Tough Claws a bit.
So now that Genesect is banned, what's the word on Alolan Marowak's viability in OU? Right now the Viability rankings thread has got him at A- but I see many people advocating him to be dropped to B+, B, or even B- and the logic is definitely there. Alolan Marowak largely benefited from being a potent anti-meta check to things like Xurkitree, Aegislash, several Genesect variants, and Pheromosa. However, many of the threats he was considered invaluable for checking like Xurkitree are proving to be not quite as effective as many thought they'd be while others have gotten banned like Genesect. For instance, I've heard how the suspect ladder saw him being used significantly less with Genesect gone. I think it's a question of whether or not the utility provided by his typing, ability, Thick Club, and STABs can justifiy the liabilities of is mediocre special bulk, bad speed, Stealth Rock weakness, and lack of recovery. I'd like to think he'll continue to prove useful (though not as much for the foreseeable future), but I'd like to hear what others have to say.
I don't like ban talk but it is not to be underestimated that Mega-Metagross gets a massive Speedboost on the initial turn!
About Alolan Marowak: Ice, Grass, Fire, Electric Resists are nothing to scoff at; It still provides what Camerupt and Rotom-H failed in the past: One of the greatest electric checks of all time. I think it will always be a tier above Rotom-H for that reason. And as far as I know Rotom-H is/was nearly always UU: I don't expect less from it.
(Although I am curious about the viability ranking: What is the big difference between B and C+ for example)
Lysergic vs ABR is a prime example of why to run Scald on Tapu Fini; the burn on Bulu was critical to ABR's win.
Lysergic's Bulu was SD Fightinium Z, and I'm not sure if that's ideal in most cases. Unless there are specific calcs for +2 All Out Pummeling that +2 Superpower can't manage or the Z move was a "counter-team" intended to catch ABR off guard, Lum berry on Bulu seems better.
Does anyone see the value in SD Fightinium Z sets? SD 3 Attacks is solid, but idk if the z move is worth it.
Lysergic's Bulu was SD Fightinium Z, and I'm not sure if that's ideal in most cases. Unless there are specific calcs for +2 All Out Pummeling that +2 Superpower can't manage or the Z move was a "counter-team" intended to catch ABR off guard, Lum berry on Bulu seems better.
Does anyone see the value in SD Fightinium Z sets? SD 3 Attacks is solid, but idk if the z move is worth it.
fightinium z is good because it does 80% upwards to skarmory which is a common range it will be in. it also blows back celesteela, jirachi, magearna, and scizor, most of which are common checks to tapu bulu. The ohko on ferrothorn also cannot be underestimated as it doesn't need a boost to kill it.
if you want to use an alternative item, i would just use life orb. lysergic took the risk and did not get rewarded. lum berry's viability as an item has nothing to do with the game.
if you want to use an alternative item, i would just use life orb. lysergic took the risk and did not get rewarded. lum berry's viability as an item has nothing to do with the game.
I think that set brings up an interesting topic in Scald on Fini in general.
I've never used it before, always preferred Surf if I want a water move, but it definitely made its mark on that game.
Looking forward to an awesome first week with some cool new stuff.
Also ABR's Koko was wise glasses 3 attacks roost how wild is that
I've never used it before, always preferred Surf if I want a water move, but it definitely made its mark on that game.
Looking forward to an awesome first week with some cool new stuff.
Also ABR's Koko was wise glasses 3 attacks roost how wild is that
I'm not forgetting that (This generation was a huge boon to Megagross because now you don't have to run Bullet Punch at all unless you're crazy) but I feel like the meta being filled with relatively common Rocky Helmeters makes Megagross users have to play more cautiously than they'd like.
That, and stall is really dominant right now (When has it not been, I guess)
Which is a bit ironic considering that Tapu Fini's own terrain partially renders Scald useless, or at least it negates why it's so trolly in the first place for five turns. I guess it was that specific situation where Tapu Bulu switched in after Tapu Fini and lifted Misty Terrain.
It is obvious landos high usage means marowak loses usage cause its effectiveness is hampered by landos centralization. It`s also interesting how anti meta special fire types are right now (heatran, volcarona, zard y even salazzle) cause of how common steels and fairys are.
The metagame is in huge demand of Fire types in order to fight effectively Steels and Fairies, like Tapu Lele, which destroys Poison types with its boosted STAB while hitting Steels "neutrally" thanks to Psychic Terrain; Nature's Madness is also a thing to wear down checks. Dark types, despite the immunity to Psychic, are out of question because they are covered by Moonblast.
Fire types are brought up this way, but it is difficult to use them with Dugtrio and Greninja running around. Problem is that many Fire types don't have reliable recovery (bar Charizard X and Y).
Celesteela is very useful in general thanks to the reliable recovery and the possibility to run many movesets.
Alolan Marowak is still useful thanks to the plethora of its resistances, but it is prone to be worn down because of its Spe is quite low. Even the Jolly attacking set with Flame Charge reaches only 310 Spe.
It is quite difficult to use Psychic and Ghost types due to two busted Dark types on top of the others.
Fire types are brought up this way, but it is difficult to use them with Dugtrio and Greninja running around. Problem is that many Fire types don't have reliable recovery (bar Charizard X and Y).
Celesteela is very useful in general thanks to the reliable recovery and the possibility to run many movesets.
Alolan Marowak is still useful thanks to the plethora of its resistances, but it is prone to be worn down because of its Spe is quite low. Even the Jolly attacking set with Flame Charge reaches only 310 Spe.
It is quite difficult to use Psychic and Ghost types due to two busted Dark types on top of the others.
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I wonder, what does successful pure HO teams run to deal with phero nowadays?
Usually a faster scarfer or priority for ho. Though it can be risky trying priority since Lele is one of the best partners for pheromosa. Some of the best scarfers are like Lele and garchomp usually in that speed tier range.
I've seen a few hyper offense team use scarf Gengar for pheremosa.
Which makes me wonder why on Earth they aren't being used more, particularly Y who can bring in weather. (Why doesn't Torkoal get Morning Sun...) Mega Charizard X is listed as OU and currently has Viability rank of A rank for what it's worth and Mega Charizard Y got banned from SM UU at light speed so it's not like they're straight up bad now. Heck, the difficulty of keeping Stealth Rocks on the field now Fini as a partner should be a boon for them and Mega Charizard X loves the lack of Slowbro and its Mega form and prominence of Tapu Koko and Mega Scizor while Mega Charizard Y should appreciate the Latis and Keldeo falling out of prominence, Mega Venusaur's ubiquity, and rain teams somewhat declining in singles if Pelipper getting demoted a rank again is anything to go by.
Given the Fairy and Steel dominance situation, it's little wonder Heatran is as good as ever. Being part Steel himself makes up for his lack of recovery in many cases and new access to Bloom Doom makes Water and Ground types far riskier to switch into him and his resistances make him a pain for any Fairy or Steel type that can't fit Ground moves into their set.
EDIT: I just realized that another often forgotten perk Alolan Marowak has over other Fire types is that since it's part Ghost, Dugtrio can't trap it.
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Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Fire Punch
- Healing Wish
Jirachi actually got a really cool unseen buff this gen. Because the Z-Happy Hour set is only compatible with shiny Jirachi, it can essentially bluff that set just by being shiny and really throw the opponent off-guard. We got ourselves a new Genesect. Unfortunately, Heart Stamp is incompatible with shiny Jirachi, so if you're looking to run Heart Stamp then this strategy won't work.
What do people think of Raikou right now? I see it has D viability, which I think is a bit harsh as it outspeeds both Mega Meta and non-Scarf variants of Lele and can hit them for reasonable damage with Shadow Ball, and it's a good check for Fini and Marowak too. I've been running CM with Sub, Shadow Ball and T-Bolt - though admittedly I'm using Aurora Veil support so maybe that's why I'm getting better results. Obviously in most situations Koko is better, but Koko can't really run a decent CM set, which I think Raikou can reasonably.
So, is Raikou your wincon mon? What opportunities do you get to set up SubCM on Raikou? It's great that Raikou can check specific 'mons and carve out some sort of niche in the meta, but what teammates do you run that allow Raikou to function where Thundurus-I wouldn't? As much as I enjoy seeing Raikou and co. get used (I run CM Bliss and it still holds near-and-dear to my heart, esp. since it compliments my Buzzwole and my Tapu Fini well on the team she's in), I'm still unsure of what makes Raikou better than Thund-I and other Electric-types (Koko and Magnezone come to mind in particular, Zone moreso) for the situations you're running Raikou in.
Thund-I has an ice weakness that Raikou lacks, and doesn't have as much bulk, though they are similar to be sure. I was thinking about Thund-I, but my BoltBeam weakness discouraged me. I guess it is a niche thing, and no it isn't my main win-con, just an added extra with decent bulk and speed.
If Thund-T had more speed, I would probably use that, as the combo of Sludge Wave and Volt Absorb makes it a decent Tapu check, but Mega Meta is all over the place so I'm not so keen.
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Thundy-T is my preferred Electric type this gen. I run Scarf with Volt, Tbolt, HP Ice, and then either Sludge Wave or Dark Pulse. SW if I want to drop Tapus and hit Grass mons harder, Dark Pulse to blast A-Maro (which otherwise walls) or Mega-Meta. Great lead due to Scarf and Volt, but also counters common Lando-T and Garchomp leads. Yet, it also has enough power to be a great revenge-killer and late-game win-con. Then, of course, the Ground and Electric immunities are great, and it's phenomenal for grabbing momentum with Volt Switch.
You could also try Agility sets, but I'm not a big fan of those.
What does everyone think of SpDef Jirachi this generation? I've been having a lot of fun with a wish-pass set. With so many important defensive mons this generation lacking strong recovery- Marowak-A, Tapu Fini, Celesteela, etc- the wish passing is a huge boon. Tapu Fini in particular works very well with it, as very little that would switch into Jirachi can deal significant damage to Fini.
I have some problems with Dugtrio Stall, I think it's the best stall archetype available this meta. How do you guys deal with it?
Bless Up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-508387445
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-508387445
I'm gonna start off my post with this replay because I feel like this replay best showcases how broken dugtrio is in this metagame. Many poor arguments for dugtrio is "low defense","It can't trap flying types". Dugtrio is able to trap most of the stall breakers in this metagame quite well and effectively. From Hoopa-U to Heatran dugtrio is able to remove em all. Dugtrio showcases how amazing it is mostly on balance and stalls. Being able to take out the measures for sableye,skarm,chansey and other members on his team with quite ease. The thing is some people say "Sableye is what makes dugtrio broken". That was proven wrong last gen with double defog teams putting on quite a show. ABR qualified with an altaria dugtrio trapping team quite nicely to showcase how stupid the mon was. Dugtrio was stupid last gen and is even more stupid this gen. It got an excellent atk boost making it be able to revenge/trap alot more mons easily and be able to run a scarf set for a more offensive meta(EB/LO Phermosa/Tapu Koko/DD Char X). Dugtrio doesn't need great defense cause it can hold on to its sash and kill what it needs as well. Dugtrio has hit a goth level of cancer forcing some players to run shit like shed shell lele like some ran shed shell togekiss in oras when shadow tag was around. Dugtrio got so bad last gen thanks to tele's very popular dugtrio sableye stall even shed shell heatran was seen on ladder.
To Wrap This Up.
Dugtrio is keeping playstyles alive and pretty disgustingly broken. It makes shed stall still viable and makes stall one of the hardest playstyles to break.
I am done. Hopefully I made some good points. I will now list balance/stallbreakers dugtrio traps.
Banded Tyranitar
Banded Terrakion
Hoopa-U
Manaphy
Sub Toxic Rachi
Heatran
Tapu Lele
Metagross
Charizard-X
and so on....I could name many more but the list would get really long.
P.S.
I am not saying dugtrio can work on every playstyle easily fit and be stupid asf like genesect or lando I. The thing is what dugtrio does for the playstyles it fits on and benefits from is what makes it disgusting.
No new public discussions as of SM's release, but there's this:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/arena-trap-dugtrio.3582873/
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