Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Rowan

The professor?
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Top Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hello! This is a place for general LC discussion which, as the name implies you can discuss anything to do with LC here!

As well, as discussion about anything pertaining to LC, I'm going to be posting topics, which will last for about 4-7 days. These will serve as conversation starters and it will hopefully get you thinking about trying more things out in LC. I encourage everyone to post about their experiences with the current topic!

If you have any suggestions for topics, feel free to message me.

list of topics:
1 - Non-Misdreavus Ghost-types
2 - Stall
3 - Trapping
4 - Suspect Nominations
5 - Post-Misdreavus metagame
6 - Items

Permission from Blarajan!

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Post Krow/Tite Meta Discussion Thread!!!
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In this thread, discuss the current metagame, and the aftermath of the Murkrow and Meditite bans! What things work now that didn't before, what things are garbage now that wasn't before, etc. Please refrain from discussing what might be broken or banned in the future! Feel free to post just about anything else though, other than a post looking for team advice on an LC team, which should go in the RMT subforums. Similarly, posts concerning the "tiering" of a pokemon should go in this thread. Have fun, and don't flame anyone >.>

Some possible topics include, but are not limited to:
  • What Pokemon can take Murkrow's place now as an offensive Flying-type?
  • How did the leaving of Murkrow and Meditite impact the metagame?
  • What does the leaving of Meditite mean for other Pokemon? Are Pokemon such as Croagunk, Mienfoo, Timburr, Riolu, or even Pancham infinitely more viable? Why?
  • What are the best Pokemon to use right now, and why?
  • What are some cool niches for some underused pokemon right now? (Similar to how Skrelp was a good Swirlix check).
  • Is stall a more viable strategy now that Murkrow and Meditite are gone? If so why, if not, why not?
Get creative guys!
 
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Amaura is completely worthless now, as opposed to being almost completely worthless. I think we will see the rise of Bird Offense and Volt Turn teams.
Aron is the best counter to flying types, and it can switch in on any of their attacks(Barring a stray EQ from Archen or Taillow's HP Fighting) and proceed to force them out. It can also set up rocks to take advantage of the switches it causes.

Pokemon that have always been good that look even stronger this meta are:
Fletchling
Misdreavus
Pawniard
Scraggy
Mienfoo
Magnemite
and more.
 
AnybodyAgrees said:
Amaura is completely worthless now, as opposed to being almost completely worthless. I think we will see the rise of Bird Offense and Volt Turn teams.
Aron is the best counter to flying types, and it can switch in on any of their attacks(Barring a stray EQ from Archen or Taillow's HP Fighting) and proceed to force them out. It can also set up rocks to take advantage of the switches it causes.

Pokemon that have always been good that look even stronger this meta are:
Fletchling
Misdreavus
Pawniard
Scraggy
Mienfoo
Magnemite
and more.
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Which more do you mean? Also why are those pokemon better?
kingmidas said:
STALL IS ALIVE BITCHES!
Okay on a more serious note, fletchling and scraggy are really nice in the current meta, trubbish got better as tspikes can potentially stop a lot of moxie scraggy sweeps, and gunk shot does a nice amount to fletchling. Snubbull still has a great niche as a pair with snubbull, as restalk/heal bell can handle status.
Click to expand...
I still think that Stall is dead, even though I have seen people start playing much more stallish. I find it cool that the metagame has shifted away from Hyper Offense into Bulky Offense. From Tangma to Krowtite, Sticky Web offense was big, TorchicPass got big, and Dwebble+hazards got really big. Now I have seen much more bulky teams, consisting of staples such as Porygon, Spritzee, Chinchou, and Timburr. I think this is because with the banning of Murkrow, the metagame lost its best wallbreaker, allowing things like Archen, Chinchou, or Porygon to rise up more. Also the loss of Meditite also contributed to Porygon and Trubbish and Timburr rise.
 
There's finally a reason to use this munchkin.

rufflet.gif


With 83 Ark and Hustle this little dude hits like a truck and it could make his presence known as a wallbreaker like dakamura (or whatever that thing's name is).
 
Amaura probably isn't very easy to fit into a team, but I wouldn't say it's completely worthless; fletchling is still a top-tier threat that Amaura is able to check.

With two Pokemon that forced it out gone, Timburr is absolutely brilliant in the current metagame. The Bulk Up set can be incredibly difficult to stop, since it can take on Trubbish and friends and is much more difficult to revenge-kill with birds. Croagunk is another massively buffed fighting-type, and with the popularity of Timburr and Scraggy, Croagunk's incredible typing can really shine. With the popularity of these two fighting types, I've seen a very slight decline in Mienfoo usage, since Regenerator isn't quite as useful when you're not switching as much, but Mienfoo is by no means any worse with the bans, and remains a wonderful pivot.

Speaking of pivots, Foongus is definitely a defensive Pokemon to watch out for. Murkrow and Meditite were both offensive threats that held it back, and with them gone, Foongus's ability to take on a variety of fighting-types and spread status can really shine.

Chinchou's usage hasn't dropped nearly as much as some people predicted it would; flying types are still as dominant as ever, and although Chinchou gets taken out by Diglett, it's still a really nice check to birdspam because it has a ton of utility doing other things. Of course, Natural Gift Fletchling is becoming popular, which doesn't bode well for chinchou :(

Of course no Pokemon will be able to quite live up to Murkrow's legacy, but a number of flying-types have gained a lot of popularity since its banning; Doduo's Brave Bird is just as powerful and gets Knock Off to muscle through Chinchou, although a lack of Sucker Punch and lower base speed hinder its sweeping capabilities. I've also noticed a rise in Archen usage as an offensive Support Pokemon, since it can take on Fletchling while being able to switch out of Diglett, making it a good Pokemon to deal with bird offense. I haven't been seeing a lot of Vullabies, even though it has the same typing as Murkrow; I guess it just tends to be overshadowed by the other birds, although it is by no means a bad Pokemon.

Despite the ubiquity of fighting and flying types, Scraggy remains a very potent sweeper, since with Eviolite, it can still take an unboosted Acrobatics from Fletchling and hit back hard with High Jump Kick. Its STABs are still phenomenal and once it's removed its counter's eviolite, a +1 High Jump Kick does a lot to Timburr and Mienfoo.

As has been mentioned, Offense seems to have shifted towards being more bulky, but stall remains an overall lesser strategy. However, individual Pokemon that rely entirely on their bulk to function such as Porygon and Spritzee seem to have gotten better with the two preeminent wall-breakers out of the tier.

I don't think it really has to do with the banning of Meditite and Murkrow, but Dwebble seems to have fallen a bit now that more and more teams are prepared for it. Onix is rising now that more people are realizing how effective it is as their suicide lead to get rocks up fast.

I feel as if defensive Tirtouga is actually far easier to fit in on a team than Shell Smash Tirtouga at the moment; it easily defeats Diglett and can make a good switch-in to birds. Hazards are very popular, making Sturdy a lot of work to keep intact for Shell Smash Tirtouga, and it faces competition from Omanyte, who requires less support and can take out Foongus.

tl;dr kacaw
 
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Some rising stars that i believe deserve some spotlight are Croagunk, Diglett, Riolu and Defensive Tirtouga (there are others, I just want to focus on these 4).

Croagunk is amazing. It has solid stats both in terms of bulk and power, a fantastic ability to soak up Scalds with Dry Skin and a great typing which lets it switch into the Dark and Fighting types that are parading around LC. Drain Punch gives it a solid means of recovery, Sludge Bomb / Gunk Shot gives it a great secondary STAB, Knock Off / Pursuit hits Ghosts and Psychics on the switch and Vacuum Wave rekks Pawniard. Croagunk also gets some great priority in Fake Out, Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch, all of which can be intermingled between the variety of sets Croagunk can utilize. Of course there is Fletchling, but that's what teammates are for.

Diglett is Fletchling's new best friend and for great reasons. 20 Speed and Arena Trap give it the ability to switch into an Electric type attack aimed at Fletchling, trap whatever Pokemon used it (usually Chinchou or Magnemite) and hit them back with a SE Earthquake. Once that's gone, Fletchling can proceed to trash your opponents team. Diglett also gets some solid moves in Rock Slide, Sucker Punch and a personal favorite of mine, Reversal. If you're running Sash Diglett, at 1 hp, Reversal can deal major damage to anything that doesn't resist it and is a great way to put some pressure on your opponent.

Riolu is a wonderful new gem that has only recently gotten a lot of attention. Prankster + Copycat makes it a formidable sweeper and High Jump Kick, Crunch and Poison Jab let it trash unprepared teams. I've been running a team based around Riolu lately, and if you can clear whatever might be able to shrug off a hit, Priority +1 HJK's will end the game. It also gets Swords Dance just in case you wanted to make your opponent break down into tears. Oh did I mention it out-speeds Fletchling so it can OHKO the pesky little bird first with a priority HJK?

Finally, Defensive Tirtouga. This thing takes hits. Lots of hits. All-Out Attacking Fletchlings run HP Grass just to deal with this thing, and most of the time, Tirtouga can severely damage Fletch or set up Stealth Rocks. Solid Rock + Eviolite + 18 Def makes Tirtouga a formidable wall and great moves like Knock Off and Aqua Jet give Tirtouga the ability to switch into anything that will threaten your team and cripple it, or simply set up SR and then move on. Also, running moves like Aqua Jet and Waterfall can sometimes bluff the Shell Smash set, and people will spend time trying to set up hazards to break your Sturdy when OH WAIT you don't have it because you're running the better version of Tirtouga.

Also, TCR props on stepping up and starting this discussion
 
Can we please ban fucking Misdreavus already and be done with it?

Also, anyone who thinks LC Stall *benefits* from the lack of Krow obviously never tried the Prankster+Sub+Roost set.
 
Antar said:
Can we please ban fucking Misdreavus already and be done with it?

Also, anyone who thinks LC Stall *benefits* from the lack of Krow obviously never tried the Prankster+Sub+Roost set.
Click to expand...

Misdreavus isn't a huge problem this meta because of the prevalence of Knock Off. Also, Will-o-Wisp isn't shutting down as many Pokemon because Spritzee is rather common now, and Timburr can just switch in and threaten with Knock Off. Scarfed Pawniard has also become a larger threat in the current meta, and can OHKO Misdreavus with Knock Off or hit it on the switch with a Pursuit. Missy isn't as big of a threat as it has been in the past and unless something crazy happens, it's not going to get banned.
 
Champion Fizz, it depends so much on the set, though. Misdreavus with defense investment can survive a Pawniard Knock Off or a Guts-boosted one from Timburr. It's simply too versatile--it's too fast, hits too hard (Dazzling Gleam gives it too much coverage) and has too much bulk.
 
I could definitely see Misdreavus going mostly because it's really easy to "prove" broken when in practice it's slightly less ferocious. I mean I usually rely on hitting it with Thunder Wave or Volt Switching around, using Magnemite, and etc to get it into Fletchling's KO range but it's just a destructive Pokemon and can set up on a lot of Pokemon and if it's kept away from Fighting-types pre Knock Off (It OHKOes 0/0 knocked off Mienfoo with Dazzling Gleam iirc). It's also one of those Pokemon who can randomly run Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fighting to nail your checks.
 
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I was initially thinking Misdreavus would be broken myself but the more I've played the more I've realized it's not that bad. Its best checks are screwed over by coverage much less and often only lose to specific sets rather than a single coverage move. That said it is definitely too early to tell if it's actually broken or not.
 
doduo.gif


Doduo
This bird is definitely in its prime right now. With a massive 85 ATK stat and solid 75 speed this bird has risen from Murkrow's shadows. For starters, it is stronger then Boomburst Tailow and can 2hko Spritzee after a Knock off. It can also kill Pawn with Hp fight on the switch. #kakaw
 
Kappaten said:
I was initially thinking Misdreavus would be broken myself but the more I've played the more I've realized it's not that bad. Its best checks are screwed over by coverage much less and often only lose to specific sets rather than a single coverage move. That said it is definitely too early to tell if it's actually broken or not.
Click to expand...

Ya Misdreavus seems amazing on paper, but can be easily dealt with via a variety of switches and a lot of pressure from Pokemon threatening it with Knock Off and such... It's still a large threat in the metagame, but I completely agree with the fact that it's too early to tell if it's broken. This same argument can be applied to Mienfoo as well, whose versatility, movepool and stat distribution are great, but it can be taken out by one good prediction or a series of good plays that don't let it get the Regen recovery.
 
I don't think that whether a Pokemon is broken or not changes with time in a metagame. If the metagame shifts toward a certain pokemon that doesn't mean that it is overpowered at all. It might be, but it also might not be. For example, right now, Fletchling is used often, and is a strong threat. Obviously, it isn't broken, as its easily beaten by a ton of counters, in Tirtouga, Archen, Magnemite, Chinchou, as well as more obscure stuff, such as Onix, Geodude, Shieldon, or Aron. Unlike previous threats, such as Tangela, it cannot overpower its counters. It requires support, be it in the way of Diglett trapping or w/e. The fact that Diglett is a thing does not make Fletchling broken either, as the thought that occured during Tite suspecting is completely absurb. That thought was that Baton Pass with a pursuit trapper was broken, which was false. Pursuiting trapping required outplaying another player, and not simply pressing "Brave Bird." Meditite was banned for other reasons, such as coverage options, the ability to beat all of its counters, etc. Fletchling and Misdreavus cannot really get past its counters. Misdreavus loses to the bulky Normal types, as well as being easily Pursuit baited, along with several other options. I believe that the argument that Misdreavus is broken mostly stems from usage stats, as I have heard the same argument for Pokemon such as Pawniard, or Scraggy, along with Fletchling.

But I digress. I believe that a Pokemon cannot be suddenly broken a couple weeks from now. The metagame has already settled, there is no "too early to tell." If Missy is deemed broken in 3 weeks, it is because it is broken now. Metagame changes do not determine whether or not a pokemon can be op or not, as the metagame is always changing towards one mon or another. a good example of this is during the Swirlgar era. the meta went from Meditite to TorchPass to Swirlix sweeps, all in about a month. In each era, a top pokemon reigned supreme. The common thing was though, that Swirlix stayed constant throughout. If it is "too early" to tell if it is broken, I would hate to know when you can tell that it is. Regardless of time, Misdreavus will always be checked by pokemon such as Porygon, Munchlax, and Lickitung, among others. Whether the meta adapts to that, in running like, scarf machop or something is irrelevant, as in the end, those pokemon are viable, and Misdreavus will always be checked by them.

One thing I have been hyping is SS+Solid Rock Tirtouga.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Ability: Solid Rock
Level: 5
EVs: 76 SDef / 40 Def / 80 HP / 212 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Shell Smash

The EV spread grants Tirtouga the ability to hit 20 Spe, outspeeding Misdreavus. The defensive investment assures that Chinchou cannot OHKO with Volt Switch with Rocks damage (in fact it often does ~60% on bullkier spreads). Even if Thunderbolt is used, bulkier spreads fail to OHKO. And in this metagame, bulk is ALWAYS needed on Chinchou. The spread also produces stuff like 51-81% from max SpA Croagunk's Vacuum Wave at -1 SpD. 45-68% from Timburr Mach Punch :) The added bulk also helps, avoiding the OHKO by Spritzee's Moonblast at -1, often with Stealth Rocks up (only a 6.3% chance). Earthquake is used over Stone Edge because misses are literally the worst. The only pokemon that you lose to are Foongus, and some variants of Vullaby (that I can think of). Earthquake however, lets you hit Chinchou and Croagunk for super-effective 2x damage. Solid Rock gives Tirtouga just enough bulk to not be OHKOed by a lot, but also to not be a stupid wall and not let Berry Juice activate a lot, often allowing for easy setup that results in full health.
 
TCR said:
I don't think that whether a Pokemon is broken or not changes with time in a metagame. If the metagame shifts toward a certain pokemon that doesn't mean that it is overpowered at all. It might be, but it also might not be. For example, right now, Fletchling is used often, and is a strong threat. Obviously, it isn't broken, as its easily beaten by a ton of counters, in Tirtouga, Archen, Magnemite, Chinchou, as well as more obscure stuff, such as Onix, Geodude, Shieldon, or Aron. Unlike previous threats, such as Tangela, it cannot overpower its counters. It requires support, be it in the way of Diglett trapping or w/e. The fact that Diglett is a thing does not make Fletchling broken either, as the thought that occured during Tite suspecting is completely absurb. That thought was that Baton Pass with a pursuit trapper was broken, which was false. Pursuiting trapping required outplaying another player, and not simply pressing "Brave Bird." Meditite was banned for other reasons, such as coverage options, the ability to beat all of its counters, etc. Fletchling and Misdreavus cannot really get past its counters. Misdreavus loses to the bulky Normal types, as well as being easily Pursuit baited, along with several other options. I believe that the argument that Misdreavus is broken mostly stems from usage stats, as I have heard the same argument for Pokemon such as Pawniard, or Scraggy, along with Fletchling.

But I digress. I believe that a Pokemon cannot be suddenly broken a couple weeks from now. The metagame has already settled, there is no "too early to tell." If Missy is deemed broken in 3 weeks, it is because it is broken now. Metagame changes do not determine whether or not a pokemon can be op or not, as the metagame is always changing towards one mon or another. a good example of this is during the Swirlgar era. the meta went from Meditite to TorchPass to Swirlix sweeps, all in about a month. In each era, a top pokemon reigned supreme. The common thing was though, that Swirlix stayed constant throughout. If it is "too early" to tell if it is broken, I would hate to know when you can tell that it is. Regardless of time, Misdreavus will always be checked by pokemon such as Porygon, Munchlax, and Lickitung, among others. Whether the meta adapts to that, in running like, scarf machop or something is irrelevant, as in the end, those pokemon are viable, and Misdreavus will always be checked by them.
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There's a difference between a Pokemon being "broken" at two different times in the same metagame (which I agree, is illogical) and not having adequate time to see if it's broken or not within that metagame. There are plenty of examples of the shifting of a Pokemon's perceived power. For example, lots of people were under the impression Sturdy+Juice was broken at the beginning of the metagame but eventually, with time, people began to figure out ways to reliably beat it without even having to focus strictly on that (ie. hazards, Fake Out on a Fighting-type, etc). Misdreavus has been the top threat in this metagame for a very short time (has only been a few weeks since MediKrow ban). It's hard to predict if there sets of Misdreavus that people will figure out will be too strong or if there are methods that will detract from its power. Time is a bit of a factor which is why we don't just nominate, vote, ban, and renominate. It can still be "too early to tell" and I think that's the case with Misdreavus.

Moving on, I think with all of the Doduo hype and sick of seeing my own team on the ladder, I switched it up to Vullaby. I've been having lots of success with a hybrid Vullaby which is much weaker than Doduo but is much more versatile as a switch-in. STAB Knock Off means even without Life Orb and 4 more Attack, it still hurts almost as much. The ability to check Misdreavus and other shit really helps too and it can actually reliably take on Pawniard without having to deal with Sucker Punch. I've been using Roost / Brave Bird / Knock Off / Hidden Power Fighting and while I miss Doduo's general power, and slight increase in Speed, Vullaby has the ability to deal with specific switch-ins in a good enough way for Fletchling to sweep.
 
Just as a note to add, Missy was #1 in usage for a decent portion of the MediKrow metagame, and I'm pretty sure it stayed that way after those two were banned.
 
Regarding usage, stats will be posted later today (hopefully), but the LC usage stats are done. Missy's in the lead with 29.5% usage (standard 1500 baseline). Mienfoo is #2 at 24.4, followed by Pawniard at 22.4%.

If we look at the "1760" stats, Misdreavus' usage is INSANE: 51.9%, and Pawniard, Missy's #1 counter, is at 49.2%. I don't think you can really debate whether Misdreavus is overcentralizing.
 
Thanks for that information Antar. Honestly, I've just been concerned with the way the metagame is shaping out to be. Last gen MMM ruled the world, and although we banned Murkrow and Meditite, Misdreavus and Mienfoo are being used a ridiculous amount. The nice thing I have to say about this current meta though is the lack of Torchicpass I've been seeing. Torchicpass to meditite was awful to deal with...

I feel that Missy has ALWAYS been pretty strong, but Dgleam has given it something it didn't need: A way to deal with DD scraggy effectively. Although will-o-wisp has always been a solution, HP fighting never did enough damage to the point where Scraggy cared, but with dgleam, missy gives no cares.
 
Antar im unsure how the "1760" stats work now with the changes to the ladder. Is it still 1760 elo or whatever, or does this translate into something much lower, such as someone sitting at say 1600? If its the former I dont think that its all that reliable. AFAIK only a handful of people have been past 1760 elo, and most of those have been heysup fluctuating between 1st and 2nd. I know for a fact that heysup is always testing stuff on the ladder, using new teams and whatnot. Maybe that contributes to the absurdedly high stats? I actually dont see missy as much as 50% so im kinda skeptical. Although i dont really know how the usage stats work now, so some clarification on tha would br helpful.
 
Someone on /vp/ confirmed Tyrunt's HA is Sturdy:
sturdy tyrunt.jpg

What are your guys' thoughts on SturdyJuice + Dragon Dance on Tyrunt?
 
Chesnaught said:
Someone on /vp/ confirmed Tyrunt's HA is Sturdy:
image.jpg

What are your guys' thoughts on SturdyJuice + Dragon Dance on Tyrunt?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that he has to run reduced HP IVs now, as base 58 HP gives you 22 HP at level 5 when uninvested.
 
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